Singletank Bombs

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Hathkar
 
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Singletank Bombs

Postby Hathkar » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:36 am #464037

Is there a reason these need to exist? I thought canister bombs were removed for a similar reason.

You can spend 10 minutes making your bomb mix, then print as many plasma tanks as you need from a lathe for practically infinite maxcap bombs.
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby wesoda25 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:49 am #464038

Hathkar wrote:Is there a reason these need to exist? I thought canister bombs were removed for a similar reason.

You can spend 10 minutes making your bomb mix, then print as many plasma tanks as you need from a lathe for practically infinite maxcap bombs.

Pretty sure canister bombs still exist. No one uses them because you can’t escape on time.
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby obscolene » Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:34 am #464047

ided
sc#4622 | everybodygangstauntilnig.ga (UPDATED FREQUENTLY)

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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby Denton » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:21 am #464083

I'm pretty sure the reason for this post was when Lexia made about 8 singletank maxcaps in 10 minutes and used them to absolutely demolish a cult base.

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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby Morris » Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:56 am #464543

I ded
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby imsxz » Wed Dec 26, 2018 10:00 pm #464788

not ided, i used them because theyre too efficient and simple to not do. not having a good soft limit on maxcaps is bad design. 1 syndicate bomb (3,9,12 boom) is enough to derail around. the 6 TTV's in toxins are enough to end one. Atmos you can carry 20 on your person with roundstart gear (duffelbag on back full of plasma tanks, duffelbag in hand full of plasmatanks), and is enough to delete the station with ease.
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby lmwevil » Thu Dec 27, 2018 1:07 am #464826

as an atmos main i can agree with imsxz that they are braindead easy to make if you know how and their potential for damage is even worse. give us back canister bombs and remove singletank thank

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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby Cobby » Thu Dec 27, 2018 4:21 pm #465014

The fact you can make theoretical 40K bombs or whatever shows there’s a need to redo the bomb formula that rewards use of tiered gasses.
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby somerandomguy » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:44 pm #465036

Cobby wrote:The fact you can make theoretical 40K bombs or whatever shows there’s a need to redo the bomb formula that rewards use of tiered gasses.

As well as the fact that tiered gases are useless for anything but points

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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby kevinz000 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:35 pm #466541

https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... mb.dm#L144
How do you even maxcap with these things? They only take plasma/oxygen in one tank and requires atleast 373.15K to even go off, with dev. radius only happening at 673.15K
((2533)*(70))/((8.314)*(273.15+400)) calculates to ~31.6 moles maximum at 673.15K with a /15 fuel_moles divisor assuming full plasma no oxygen as it only counts plasma and oxygen without even checking for combustion = 2 dev/4 heavy/6 light
The mixture is never reacted (so it's not going to the primary check proc which is how toxins maxcaps work), it's never even adjusted in temperature (so there shouldn't BE any reactions anyways), it's just the initial gas + temperature that's being checked for.
Infact the code is even more stupid because at 373.15K plasma/oxygen will probably already be burning so why is it checking for plasma + oxygen? Pretty sure singletanks are some very, very old code.
How the hell are these maxcapping or am I fundamentally reading the code wrong here?

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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby Hathkar » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:29 pm #466570

Ask Imsxz, I didn't write down the mix and temperatures required for the singletank maxcaps.
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby Electronics » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:26 pm #466744

kevinz000 wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/blob/master/code/modules/assembly/bomb.dm#L144
How do you even maxcap with these things? They only take plasma/oxygen in one tank and requires atleast 373.15K to even go off, with dev. radius only happening at 673.15K
((2533)*(70))/((8.314)*(273.15+400)) calculates to ~31.6 moles maximum at 673.15K with a /15 fuel_moles divisor assuming full plasma no oxygen as it only counts plasma and oxygen without even checking for combustion = 2 dev/4 heavy/6 light
The mixture is never reacted (so it's not going to the primary check proc which is how toxins maxcaps work), it's never even adjusted in temperature (so there shouldn't BE any reactions anyways), it's just the initial gas + temperature that's being checked for.
Infact the code is even more stupid because at 373.15K plasma/oxygen will probably already be burning so why is it checking for plasma + oxygen? Pretty sure singletanks are some very, very old code.
How the hell are these maxcapping or am I fundamentally reading the code wrong here?


I think the singletank bombs that people are using are just from letting a mix reach TANK_FRAGMENT_PRESSURE at which point react is called 3 times before exploding.
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... ks.dm#L234

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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby Whoneedspacee » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:21 am #467686

Electronics wrote:
kevinz000 wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/blob/master/code/modules/assembly/bomb.dm#L144
How do you even maxcap with these things? They only take plasma/oxygen in one tank and requires atleast 373.15K to even go off, with dev. radius only happening at 673.15K
((2533)*(70))/((8.314)*(273.15+400)) calculates to ~31.6 moles maximum at 673.15K with a /15 fuel_moles divisor assuming full plasma no oxygen as it only counts plasma and oxygen without even checking for combustion = 2 dev/4 heavy/6 light
The mixture is never reacted (so it's not going to the primary check proc which is how toxins maxcaps work), it's never even adjusted in temperature (so there shouldn't BE any reactions anyways), it's just the initial gas + temperature that's being checked for.
Infact the code is even more stupid because at 373.15K plasma/oxygen will probably already be burning so why is it checking for plasma + oxygen? Pretty sure singletanks are some very, very old code.
How the hell are these maxcapping or am I fundamentally reading the code wrong here?


I think the singletank bombs that people are using are just from letting a mix reach TANK_FRAGMENT_PRESSURE at which point react is called 3 times before exploding.
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... ks.dm#L234


Tanks in general react 3 times before exploding, and it's instant reactions so it doesn't slow an explosion at all. It's just to make sure something that immediately exceeds the pressure amount like a 2.7 kelvin mix going into a 1,000,000 kelvin mix actually reacts before calculating the explosion range.

If you want the wait time the method is abusing tritiums burn rate of being slow and then ramping up extraordinarily once it reaches a 50-50 split. Shown in this video I made a bit back, method leaked bois.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8spS95IChI

Also none of these use the actual single-tanks it's just a tank. We call them singlecaps to differentiate from them generally. Single-tanks have snowflakey code and only explode from plasma and oxygen not anything else.
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:53 am #467689

@kevin we are talking about singlecaps ( max cap with trit in 1 plasma tank) not tankbombs (the one you linked to

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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby granpawalton » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:46 am #469244

Toxins is very powerful as it is without this, if we wanted this to be in it should be time locked at like 1 hour not 10 minutes

To get rid of this we could just change the tritium formula not to be piecewise and spike when it reaches the formula when the oxygen out weighs the tritium

The plasma fire formula has been stood really strong all these years and a similiar formula would be a safe replacement and be generally better for many reasons

If we wanted to keep in "timed singlecaps" we could make a similiar gas to hyper-nobilium with the reaction suppression but have it decay into another gas over time and that could gate it behind a later point in the round

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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby kevinz000 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:14 pm #470281

Tlaltecuhtli wrote:@kevin we are talking about singlecaps ( max cap with trit in 1 plasma tank) not tankbombs (the one you linked to

Ah, neato.
How exactly do you ignite them I've never trained myself in anything but TTV and tankbombs

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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby wesoda25 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:30 am #470423

kevinz000 wrote:
Tlaltecuhtli wrote:@kevin we are talking about singlecaps ( max cap with trit in 1 plasma tank) not tankbombs (the one you linked to

Ah, neato.
How exactly do you ignite them I've never trained myself in anything but TTV and tankbombs

Trit combusts with oxygen and does it itself. Normal its an instantaneous explosion, but you can scale the moles and temperatures to delay it. Not an actual single tank bomb, just an exploding tank. I may be wrong but I think original single tank bombs are gone (the kind where you weld a hole in them).
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby granpawalton » Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:29 am #471480

as of tritium changes in https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/42194 this "should" be no longer in the game without hyper nobelium unless some gamer finds an oversight

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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby ohnopigeons » Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:02 am #490807

Bumping this thread, it's still in the game. See this map.

With game balance decisions regarding other explosives, I can't imagine a good reason why singlecaps (max) continue to exist in its current state.

Single tank detonation has never been very useful, as the reaction is less controllable or time-consuming than alternative means of detonation. Normally the explosion is supposed to be weak too with its limited capacity but new atmos gases and interaction have really challenged and voided this assumption. As such, given the flaws of single tanks, the only real use is to literally carpet bomb the station or an area through numbers to compensate.

Should single tank explosion mechanics be removed entirely? This seems like the least worst solution.
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:28 am #490828

Not surprising someone managed to find a way to do it again. Guess we're back to Lexia Black carpet bombing the station every other round.
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby Whoneedspacee » Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:29 pm #490845

well hey maybe shouldnt have added the ability for ghosts to copy any bomb mix they can see
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby Nabski » Thu Apr 25, 2019 6:30 pm #490858

Something overpowered, but secret, doesn't make it not overpowered. It just makes it more rare.

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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby ohnopigeons » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:00 am #490912

I made a PR to halfcap singletank bombs (2,5,10)

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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby Cobby » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:02 am #491054

Cobby wrote:The fact you can make theoretical 40K bombs or whatever shows there’s a need to redo the bomb formula that rewards use of tiered gasses.


chop chop atmos nerds or im coming for bombs again
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Wed May 01, 2019 9:10 pm #491700

Just remove it. Singletank bombs are an unfun mechanic to play against and there will never be a positive use for it. People don't bother making any of the other good atmosphere gasses because bombs are easy and you can make 30 of them and ignore the main limiting factor (ttvs).

If someone wants to carpet bomb force then to go through cargo and deal with all the limiters in place for bombs (like ttv limits and ttv size)
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Wed May 01, 2019 9:24 pm #491702

I cannot stress enough how unfun it is to deal with atmosphere man in space, who moves around with a Max speed jetpack, has no slowdown so just has to run away from instant stuns to outplay you (which don't really exist any more) and has infinite jetpack refuels from his pump that doubles as his murder bone tool

Atmosphere man doesn't need to fight anyone to win and risk losing in a fight, he wins by avoiding anyone who can hurt him while he tosses bombs.
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby ohnopigeons » Sun May 05, 2019 8:29 pm #492284

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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby ohnopigeons » Mon May 06, 2019 4:14 am #492333

I really don't want to hear unfounded and descriptionless complaints about realism especially from the same person who asked why physics mattered in SS13.
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby oranges » Tue May 07, 2019 3:22 am #492463

I suspect the proper action here is just to nerf all bombs until they're below the hardcap by soft means.

Reaching the current max cap should require significant investment in fusion effort.

Problem is it will make all the bomb users whine about how small their explosions are now, another toxic battle I can barely bring myself to want to fight.
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby wesoda25 » Tue May 07, 2019 3:30 am #492472

Remove gas explosions and make expanding gas fuck with you hard. Im talking shit to send you flying through windows and grilles, anime style. It’d make them so much less cancer, id actually have fun getting hit by one, even if it crits/kills me.
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby ohnopigeons » Tue May 07, 2019 9:17 pm #492617

oranges wrote:I suspect the proper action here is just to nerf all bombs until they're below the hardcap by soft means.

Reaching the current max cap should require significant investment in fusion effort.

Problem is it will make all the bomb users whine about how small their explosions are now, another toxic battle I can barely bring myself to want to fight.

I assume by soft means you mean mathematical scaling.

1. Do you want it only applied to toxins bombs?
2. What size should a standard 6000dev tritium bomb actually explode as?
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby D&B » Wed May 08, 2019 12:08 am #492654

wesoda25 wrote:Remove gas explosions and make expanding gas fuck with you hard. Im talking shit to send you flying through windows and grilles, anime style. It’d make them so much less cancer, id actually have fun getting hit by one, even if it crits/kills me.


You mean like the ZAS
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby oranges » Wed May 08, 2019 2:05 am #492690

yes I mean mathematical scaling, although I'd prefer new tiers of gasses that need fusion and then like ultra fusion or super fusion or some shit etc that need enormou amounts of power(so you need a secondary engine) and specialised equipment (coming from the engineering techfab)

The maximum possible size under any circumstance should just be the maxcap limit, this doesn't mena that you should be able to reach the maxcap with a standard bomb, but only the most super destructive super fusion hyperheated bomb.

I don't have any good insight as to what the "standard" bomb should do, maybe a quarter of a large room?
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby MisterPerson » Wed May 08, 2019 5:27 am #492732

Maybe explosions need to be rewritten so they're not always light impact range == 2 * heavy impact range == 2 * devastation impact range. So one kind of explosion might be really large but low damage while another might literally be a single 1x1 tile dev but leave the surrounding tiles untouched.

There's only so much tweaking you can do when the only thing you can tweak are absolute size and power, which are intrinsically tied together.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums. I haven't played in like 2 years so don't listen to my suggestions.

Why realism is stupid:
Spoiler:
Wiz, the project lead of Europa Universalis IV:

Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
Source: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/ind ... t-19679470

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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby WarbossLincoln » Thu May 09, 2019 2:48 am #492878

oranges wrote:Problem is it will make all the bomb users whine about how small their explosions are now, another toxic battle I can barely bring myself to want to fight.


Question: If you're in charge of what gets merged why would you have to fight? You have the power and lack of oversight to just ignore the haters. The 'oranges man bad' crowd are going to hate anything you do anyway so you might as well.
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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby MisterPerson » Thu May 09, 2019 5:43 am #492887

Because after pissing people off, those people are still here. And he still has to interact with them. So either they leave, which sucks, or they stick around all grumpy and starting shit, which sucks.

I mean eventually you gotta put your foot down because someone's gonna hate anything you do, but it's very hard to do something you know is going to rile up the hornet's nest, even if all those hornets can do is say "orange man bad lol".
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums. I haven't played in like 2 years so don't listen to my suggestions.

Why realism is stupid:
Spoiler:
Wiz, the project lead of Europa Universalis IV:

Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
Source: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/ind ... t-19679470

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Re: Singletank Bombs

Postby WarbossLincoln » Thu May 09, 2019 1:56 pm #492897

There are times when I think the hornets nest is dumb and should be ignored, this is probably one of them. Singletank bombs are dumb. Being able to keep a pump in space that's both your bomb factory and jetpack fuel is definitely bad. The one time I managed to stop someone doing this was someone who screwed up and left suit sensors on. I followed a pinpointer to their bomb factory, arrived after they left, and hid in their locker of supplies with a shotgun till they got back.
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