Does the detective fluff matter?

Ask and discuss policy about game conduct and rules.

Moderator: In-Game Head Admins

Istoprocent1
 
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:14 pm
Byond Username: istoprocent

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Istoprocent1 » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:43 am #466118

teepeepee wrote:let's ban this VALID HUNTING lizard so he stops ruining the pinacle ot /tg/ roleplay: breaking into cap office to get dat all access


Not only that, lets fuck up an entire role that this guy has been setting as high.

NSFW:
Image



User avatar
DemonFiren
 
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:15 pm
Byond Username: DemonFiren

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby DemonFiren » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:29 pm #466280

Istoprocent1 wrote:
teepeepee wrote:let's ban this VALID HUNTING lizard so he stops ruining the pinacle ot /tg/ roleplay: breaking into cap office to get dat all access


Not only that, lets fuck up an entire role that this guy has been setting as high.

NSFW:
Image

itt: newfags
Image
Image
Image
ImageImageImageImageImage

non-lizard things:
Spoiler:
Image

User avatar
Dax Dupont
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:07 pm
Location: Belgium
Byond Username: DaxYeen
Github Username: DaxDupont

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Dax Dupont » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:33 pm #466291

This is not about a single incident, I was merely reminded of this whole thing I've been meaning to post a thread for half a year now.
This is about baselines, you can still argue that they violated rule 1/0 regardless.
I think anuv was at fault in this ban but I also think iso is a horrible detective, but the two bad players can figure that or in the ban appeal and not here since the ban involves more than just the detective is sec question.

User avatar
Hathkar
 
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:41 am
Byond Username: Hathkar

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Hathkar » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:15 pm #466302

Do we really need to have this discussion about detective fluff when we're really only discussing one particular player?
I play as Launch Kusami on Bagil (Rarely on Sybil).
Also you should max your suit sensors.

somerandomguy
 
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:41 pm
Byond Username: Astatineguy12

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby somerandomguy » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:34 pm #466303

Istoprocent1 wrote:
Malkraz wrote:Exactly what Floivan said. Even as an esteemed tider, my top priority is keeping people in the game playing the round with me and only resort to removal if things get REALLY bad. Hell I'll even switch to Captain or AI if people from a previous round were being total cunts with their punishments to keep the next round in check. This style of secshittery is only going to breed more of the really disruptive form of tiding and it's mostly going to be targetted at security.
As you can see from his reply though, you're never going to get through to a player like this who's only game plan is to "win" and "punish the shitters". You're playing for a completely different purpose than this dunce and eventually you're going to be forced into his win/lose game. Just revel in his cries of metagrudging/buddying when you inevitably dunk on him as he tries to shoot you for taking insuls.


Obvious bait is obvious.

Why are you tiding in the first place? The game is not meant to be Extended Freeform Tide with no goals.

Also, where is your metabuddy Manley at? Haven't seen him around.

"Everything is bait"
">metabuddy"
Nice bait you got there

User avatar
Dax Dupont
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 9:07 pm
Location: Belgium
Byond Username: DaxYeen
Github Username: DaxDupont

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Dax Dupont » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:46 pm #466307

Hathkar wrote:Do we really need to have this discussion about detective fluff when we're really only discussing one particular player?

yes because it's NOT ABOUT THIS SPECIFIC PLAYER AS I'VE MENTIONED 32042304204032 times.

User avatar
Pizzatiger
 
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:44 pm
Byond Username: Pizzatiger

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Pizzatiger » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:46 pm #466345

One thing I would quickly like to point out to Istoprocent.

Play styles are not some sacred thing that can't be touched. You can't just counter every argument with "this will effect my play style" when we have in the past removed toxic play styles which made the game actively worst via code or policy changes. Imagine how security borg players felt when their favorite borg type was removed, this 100% ruined their favored play style but in the long run it made the game more enjoyable to more people.

If you feel this strongly about the current state of detective then i suggest you create better arguments then just talking about how your play style is sacred or else you might lose it

User avatar
Vaina
 
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:07 pm
Byond Username: Vaina

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Vaina » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:01 am #466398

New policy suggestion: can we ban curators who don't stock the shelves and do their job?

Istoprocent1
 
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:14 pm
Byond Username: istoprocent

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Istoprocent1 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:28 am #466413

Vaina wrote:New policy suggestion: can we ban curators who don't stock the shelves and do their job?


I got your sarcasm fam, gonna add some of mine as well.

After that lets start banning medics who fail to use epipens, chefs that don't cook X amount of food, bartenders that don't make X amount of drinks, lawyers who don't get prisorners out of their punishment and so on. Heck, lets go full Colonial Marines, if you do anything outside your job, instantly banned, because Scientists don't know how to do surgery!!

The real question is why? Why does the detective need to be in a box, while everybody else is allowed to do the things they like, even if said things have nothing to do with their department? Is it for the RP reasons or for something else? Why are we focusing on the detective, if there are more pressing matters such as assistants or people actually not doing their jobs at all and fucking around. Over regulation is as bad as under regulation.

User avatar
Shadowflame909
 
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:18 pm
Location: Think about something witty and pretend I put it here
Byond Username: Shadowflame909

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:50 am #466423

Istoprocent1 wrote:
Vaina wrote:New policy suggestion: can we ban curators who don't stock the shelves and do their job?


I got your sarcasm fam, gonna add some of mine as well.

After that lets start banning medics who fail to use epipens, chefs that don't cook X amount of food, bartenders that don't make X amount of drinks, lawyers who don't get prisorners out of their punishment and so on. Heck, lets go full Colonial Marines, if you do anything outside your job, instantly banned, because Scientists don't know how to do surgery!!

The real question is why? Why does the detective need to be in a box, while everybody else is allowed to do the things they like, even if said things have nothing to do with their department? Is it for the RP reasons or for something else? Why are we focusing on the detective, if there are more pressing matters such as assistants or people actually not doing their jobs at all and fucking around. Over regulation is as bad as under regulation.



Job Ban* If we do that the majority of the playerbase would be gone, but we'd def be at medium - high RP
ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

User avatar
DrunkenMatey
 
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:21 pm
Byond Username: DrunkenMatey

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby DrunkenMatey » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:39 am #466436

Tis a fair point. A detective who spends all round RPing in the bar isn't likely to spawn these kinds of threads. Not really sure what the answer is; hoping isto finds a way to play det/sec without being such a miserable prick would be great but it is such a grey area with policy and rules that it is hard to point at any one thing and say "you can't do this anymore, because of this" So I guess we just see how it goes. I would be quite OK with seeing the rules page on wiki reworked/updated pretty extensively but I suspect that isn't likely (my main beef having some rules that say not to go killing people and other rules saying you can murder people over pretty much anything).

User avatar
Farquaar
 
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am
Location: Somewhere north of Hogtown
Byond Username: Farquaar

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Farquaar » Wed Jan 02, 2019 2:41 am #466438

Vaina wrote:New policy suggestion: can we ban curators who don't stock the shelves and do their job?

This but unironically

Istoprocent1
 
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:14 pm
Byond Username: istoprocent

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Istoprocent1 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 5:13 am #466463

DrunkenMatey wrote:Tis a fair point. A detective who spends all round RPing in the bar isn't likely to spawn these kinds of threads.


A detective fucking around is a liability to their department and is actually not contributing to the experience. If the game was about extended eRPing in the dorms, then the playerbase would consist of people doing so exclusively.

DrunkenMatey wrote:Not really sure what the answer is; hoping isto finds a way to play det/sec without being such a miserable prick would be great but it is such a grey area with policy and rules that it is hard to point at any one thing and say "you can't do this anymore, because of this" So I guess we just see how it goes.


Dax pointed out that this was not about my playstyle or anything related to me. Just a random policy thread.

DrunkenMatey wrote:I would be quite OK with seeing the rules page on wiki reworked/updated pretty extensively but I suspect that isn't likely (my main beef having some rules that say not to go killing people and other rules saying you can murder people over pretty much anything).


Have to agree with you. The rules need to be clear and consistent. Players need to be able to look at the rules and know in advance whether their actions are going to be okay or not. No hypocrisy or double standards.

Example: Speed limit is 50. If you are doing 100 in the 50 zone, then you are breaking the rules, you know that you are breaking the rules. Your intent doesn't matter (transporting somebody else due to medical emergency [good], testing out your car's engine [neutral], trying to get your truck of peace to the speed in order to plow through a marketplace [evil]). One could start making addendums via exceptions, when it is okay to ignore the rule, could be "in case of X", eventually there will be a list of acceptable behaviour, which will be clear to everybody.

Rules come from Rules & Headmin Policies, everything else is fluff and fluff should never directly dictate how things are done OOC, things that are IC should remain IC and only be actionable, if they go against the OOC.

somerandomguy
 
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:41 pm
Byond Username: Astatineguy12

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby somerandomguy » Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:57 pm #466531

The rules are already clear and consistent, hell, it even describes what "being a dick" is. Rule 0 exists to get rid of people that consistently ruin other's fun while not technically breaking other rules (violating rule 1 anyway). The main question a person needs to ask themselves before they do something is "does this ruin someone else's fun without a good reason?" There is also already no hypocrisy or double standards. Most people play in good faith and almost never get banned or noted.

The rules do indeed need to be fair and consistent - but that just means they shouldn't be changed.

Istoprocent1
 
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:14 pm
Byond Username: istoprocent

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Istoprocent1 » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:15 pm #466602

somerandomguy wrote:The rules are already clear and consistent, hell, it even describes what "being a dick" is. Rule 0 exists to get rid of people that consistently ruin other's fun while not technically breaking other rules (violating rule 1 anyway). The main question a person needs to ask themselves before they do something is "does this ruin someone else's fun without a good reason?" There is also already no hypocrisy or double standards. Most people play in good faith and almost never get banned or noted.

The rules do indeed need to be fair and consistent - but that just means they shouldn't be changed.


If there are enough Rule 0 cases on something, then it should become a part of the main rules (such as repeatedly recalling the shuttle) or reflect in code changes.

Rule 1 even has a Precedent to remove people from the game for Unprovoked Grief (Greytiding), yet you see same names doing the same shit over and over again or even cases where they are able to ban bait people stopping them. There is no good faith in greytiding.

Rules being updated every now and again to reflect the present reality has all to do with fairness and consistency. Archaic rulings lead to situations, where players can get punished for things that are not even relevant anymore or even worse get selectively punished.

A good example is: Fortifying security roundstart - Barriers roundstart are not allowed, flashers are allowed, giving out guns/armor roundstart is allowed. - HornyGranny (2014)

Then it always has to be malice whenever anybody makes a mistake (including admins), because by your logic everything is 100% clear at all times.

User avatar
Anuv
 
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:34 pm
Byond Username: Anuv

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Anuv » Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:55 am #466623

We need to remove perma. There isn't any reason to have it at all when someone is set to either a 10 minute sentence or death.
Image

User avatar
Cobby
Github User
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Cobby » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:19 am #466631

Anuv wrote:We need to remove perma. There isn't any reason to have it at all when someone is set to either a 10 minute sentence or death.


perma should be the first solution instead of death.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current

Istoprocent1
 
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:14 pm
Byond Username: istoprocent

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Istoprocent1 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:35 am #466634

Anuv wrote:We need to remove perma. There isn't any reason to have it at all when someone is set to either a 10 minute sentence or death.


Let me drop some hyperbole here as well. There is no reason to have sec at all, if preventing crimes can get you banned. Also why have sec, if greytiding is already bannable offence?

Cobby wrote:perma should be the first solution instead of death.


Perma should first be fixed to be next to unescapable without either a) outside help or b) hidden tools.
Followed by Rule changes (non-antags helping prisorners escape bannable, any non-antag killing for any reason bannable - no exceptions).

And by bannable I mean clear bans like with the OOC in IC (15 minute ban). You do X, you get banned for X amount, if you do X for Y times in Z amount of time, your ban extends to W. Not like some people can do it and its okay, while others get harshly banned.

Why should anybody be restricted to anything, if there are people like Scuff Gerald who mains assistant, does whatever he pleases, if you push them once "lol muh escalation, gonna kill you and drag you in the maintenance for defending your workplace".

User avatar
Anuv
 
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:34 pm
Byond Username: Anuv

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Anuv » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:28 am #466651

Cobby wrote:
Anuv wrote:We need to remove perma. There isn't any reason to have it at all when someone is set to either a 10 minute sentence or death.


perma should be the first solution instead of death.


Acting antagonistic = death, so execute. No need for perma. Start a PR to have it removed.
Image

Istoprocent1
 
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:14 pm
Byond Username: istoprocent

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Istoprocent1 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 3:13 am #466661

Anuv wrote:Acting antagonistic = death, so execute. No need for perma.


Sounds like that one case, where a player was being dick supreme, ruining the round for the whole security team and got executed for a completely valid reason, but lets not get into details of that in here.

Anuv wrote:Start a PR to have it removed.


Sounds like some solid advice. If you don't like something, take it to the forums and have a community discussion about it. Until things are changed, they work as they are supposed to work, can't cherry pick the things.

User avatar
Anuv
 
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:34 pm
Byond Username: Anuv

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Anuv » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:09 am #466726

It just makes sense while talking about sec and punishments. Perma is a huge waste of space on the station and has no set purpose in any capacity. Especially since there's a chance that valids can escape. If someone commits enough crime to warrant perma they need to be killed and we can save the space/resources for the z-level.

I'm really tired of playing as sec and having a legitimate emagged door/bomb/locker that needs prints scanned and the detective takes 10 minutes to arrive or just never comes because he's out playing gestapo. Go roll sec if you want to do that shit. The slots are always there. Remove his gun and implant and make him a PI. It's bad enough that some detectives already print tons of extra ammo without any threats and even worse when a select few grab a tazer/riot shotgun as a crutch at the beginning of every single round.
Image

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:14 am #466728

Encourage the Head of Security to nab the spare scanner. Unless you are prepared to enforce roleplay standards on people then there is no way you will ever get a Detective player to conform to a certain playstyle.

The onus is on the Detective or HoS to get a forensics scanner and conduct investigations, if neither of them are willing then there's nothing you can do to force them.
Image

User avatar
Anuv
 
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:34 pm
Byond Username: Anuv

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Anuv » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:19 am #466729

Then the HoS should be the one who starts with scanners. I don't think asking someone to use their tool/mechanic that they are the only one to have and can lead to big breakthroughs is so much a playstyle/RP thing. It's purely mechanical.
Image

User avatar
Steelpoint
Github User
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:37 pm
Location: The Armoury
Byond Username: Steelpoint
Github Username: Steelpoint

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Steelpoint » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:21 am #466730

Propose a PR to give the HoS the spare scanner then. Slot it in his locker.
Image

User avatar
lmwevil
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:09 pm
Byond Username: Lmwevil

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby lmwevil » Thu Jan 03, 2019 1:58 pm #466746

we've never enforced any job to 'do their fluff' besides ghost roles, i mean hell cargo techs go off and tide, masturbate, and buy insane amounts of contraband instead of stocking other departments for an example

this thread is pointless, just have it possible to print more scanners so investigations can happen w/o a detective early/midgame

Istoprocent1
 
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:14 pm
Byond Username: istoprocent

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Istoprocent1 » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:38 pm #466750

lmwevil wrote:we've never enforced any job to 'do their fluff' besides ghost roles, i mean hell cargo techs go off and tide, masturbate, and buy insane amounts of contraband instead of stocking other departments for an example

this thread is pointless, just have it possible to print more scanners so investigations can happen w/o a detective early/midgame


Can't agree more. That being said there is a way to get more scanners via cargo, if they choose to do their jobs and aren't busy eRPing in the dorms or dying in the maintenance/brig.

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Supply_crates

Forensics Crate - 2000 (a rather steep price to pay for detective's hat and a white crayon), which contains:

1x detective scanner
1x evidence box
1x camera
1x tape recorder
1x white crayon
1x detective hat

User avatar
confused rock
 
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:18 am
Byond Username: The unloved rock

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby confused rock » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:41 pm #466752

HOS can grab it from the det’s locker but, unlike the detective, he has reason to be busy arresting nonviolent criminals, so you can never rely on him to help with shit. I’ve asked detectives come to a crime scene, them immediately leaving after finding no prints, and then soon after I find the body just in a locker following a blood trail. Detectives hardly detect, the HOS definitely won’t.
Image

somerandomguy
 
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:41 pm
Byond Username: Astatineguy12

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby somerandomguy » Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:55 pm #466782

Consider this: HoS players are, on average, better than detective players

User avatar
Farquaar
 
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:20 am
Location: Somewhere north of Hogtown
Byond Username: Farquaar

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby Farquaar » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:48 am #466827

lmwevil wrote:this thread is pointless, just have it possible to print more scanners so investigations can happen w/o a detective early/midgame

Pretty sure scanners can already be printed at the security protolathe. Not sure if there's a minor tech barrier though.

User avatar
saprasam
 
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 11:42 pm
Byond Username: Saprasam

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby saprasam » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:20 am #468448

hey gamers its me metabuddy manley and i have fuck all idea whats going on here because my brain's melting from isto 'calls me a metacommer ith a person i never talk with unless im dead' but im gonna put my 2 cents in here and say isto the kinda guy to call you a metabuddy and then get into an argument that relates to him insulting you over and over
anyways yeah isto noob and has begun making me want to play warden just to disenable fucking detcurity who scream "SECHUSD NOW" and shoot the warden & baton them for not giving them sechuds/not enabling them their rush of dopamine from bashing a tider who doesnt deserve execution (space law or not)'s head in with their baton
also holy shit this is a discussion about det fluff caused by shitty det behavior but it ultimately turned into complaining/thinking of better solutions to deal with detcurity

also heres a fun fact: i once observed isto when they were detcurity and they didnt have their scanner in their backpack hmmmm
free tibet
i dont understand a single thing going on half the time
Image

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby oranges » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:20 am #468497

this is such a vaguely worded salt thread it's like kazaaaz shazaam my dick is a noodle
Image

User avatar
WarbossLincoln
 
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:14 pm
Byond Username: WarbossLincoln

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby WarbossLincoln » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:11 am #468613

Detective acting like normal sec is always going to be a thing as long as the HOS allows it and sec enables it. Bring back traitor detective if you want to clean it up a little bit. HOS and Wardens won't be as cool with arming a detective to the teeth every round at round start if they might be as rogue as any assistant.
--Crocodillo

Image

User avatar
TribeOfBeavers
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:54 pm
Location: Canada
Byond Username: TribeOfBeavers

Re: Does the detective fluff matter?

Postby TribeOfBeavers » Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:49 pm #470251

This thread is a mess so im just going to address the main point.

It does not matter in terms of the rules if the detective follows their fluff beyond them being a member of security.

They are, of course, open to IC repercussions for ignoring their job (demotion, ridicule etc.) But you generally won't get banned for not following the fluff.

However, like everybody else they are of course still subject to server rules, including rule 1. As such, abusing the role in such a way that it negatively impacts the round for other players can open them to admin intervention.

Previous

Return to Policy Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: NoxVS, Shaps-cloud