How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

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Gouty
 
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How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Gouty » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:06 pm #468347

It's come up a few times recently for me where I've ahelped something and I've either just been replied to with "resolved" or it has been closed with little to no discussion. I'm not talking about ambiguous "was it valid?" sort of ahelps either, I get that replies to that will be short and not give round information away.

I understand there may be reasons for not giving further information, due to it being an ongoing round or if you have someone who is being belligerent that they want a certain action taken, but when someone has been genuinely wronged i think it would do a lot for trust in the administration if the aggrieved part was told what actions were taken.

What's more some admins seem to think they can't tell players what actions were taken against another player and it must be kept private. Is this the case? If so it seems strange and does not help transparency or accountability.



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Dax Dupont
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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Dax Dupont » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:13 pm #468349

It's against policy to go Hey so and so were banned in public but I feel it should be the admin's call if they WANT to or not. They shouldn't be obligated to. Especially with players you know will whine for ages why you didn't ban George melons for slipping you.

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Nabski » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:21 pm #468350

I think a generic "This is resolved" works for almost everything. As a player you then know the administrator looked at your issue and has done what they think is right. Going into detail on what specifically was done to the other party involved is difficult because they might be a completely new player, or they could be jim "thin ice" johnson. One would get scolded and the other permabanned.

There's no MUST keep things private, but it's lames to sometimes say what punishments were given and other times not. If it effected a large number of players, it makes slightly more sense to say "hey the HoS was security banned because they were shit"/"Sending lewd cross server messages will get you banned" compared to "I've given the chef a warning to make sure people are actually dead and not just in crit before making them into meat".
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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Malkraz » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:25 pm #468351

Just power game it by checking Who before and after the ahelps
Franklin Khan says, " Well I know who I'm metagrudging from now on "
Istoprocent: You and Rock Steele definitely metabuddies, proving metacomms will take time but eventually people will figure it out.
Declan Cooper asks, " does rock steel have autism? "
Erik489: Malkraz, I gotta ask, and please be honest. Do you metacomm with Rock Steel?
Lumbermancer: also rock should be killed every round
Willy Willee says, " And he kept spam-tabling me, while his metafriend came over "
ATHATH: Rock Steel, I fucking hate you with a passion. I was alive on the station for less than a minute, you absolute cunt you CREMATING ASSHOLE I GENUINELY *HATE* YOU
Adam Karlsson says, " i just want rock " Shaun McFall says, " you know you'll get harshly punished for this right " Adam Karlsson says, " oh i know "

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Gouty » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:35 pm #468354

I get your points (except Malkraz ya memer), I wouldn't expect an admin to go "I just banned this guy for this" in OOC to a bunch of people that weren't involved, but when it's one complainant, or it's a particularly complicated ahelp where it isn't clear what conclusion the admin will come to? If you don't know the outcome how do you know if the admin has conducted themselves properly? I don't mean to imply that anyone is making bad decisions, or that the team is incapable of keeping itself in check, but how would we know if it was otherwise?

As an aside, why aren't bans made public like on other servers?

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Dax Dupont » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:46 pm #468357

On one hand I'd like a public ban log with a week delay so we don't have to deal with pouting people in ahelps but shitters get openly shamed.

On the other it would turn Admin complaints into ban requests 2.0. Feeding the peanut gallery seems like a bad idea. Also people will not understand context well. There's all kinds of mitigating factors.

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Lazengann » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:51 pm #468358

I like that you don't have to tell people whether or not you banned someone. You applied a note to that guy with no history of bad behavior? You shitty admin, I want him BANNED for this

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Gouty » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:06 pm #468360

I like the idea of a public ban log with a delay. Just keep cracking the whip on peanut posts.

Lazengann, I thought that past behaviour was only ever used to justify an increase in ban time from the normal? If you are confident in the outcome you came to (even if it wasn't the one they wanted) why wouldn't you tell the guy that ahelped it in the first place?

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Dax Dupont » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:22 pm #468364

Gouty wrote:I like the idea of a public ban log with a delay. Just keep cracking the whip on peanut posts.

Lazengann, I thought that past behaviour was only ever used to justify an increase in ban time from the normal? If you are confident in the outcome you came to (even if it wasn't the one they wanted) why wouldn't you tell the guy that ahelped it in the first place?


Because they'll argue endlessly, you've been an admin you should know better.

Also people with no history are generally given a warning depending on severity, especially with new people.

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby BebeYoshi » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:40 pm #468371

I did have an AC related to this (https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=19585), and I think that using phrases that tells the other party that you handled it, while not giving the specific punishment given is enough, giving the "bad guy" privacy about what they recieved.
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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby bandit » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:17 pm #468373

I don't usually mention the exact ruling unless it's, like, 6 people all ahelping about the same obvious griffer. The problem is that some people interpret it as "Did you ban him, i.e. can I go beat the shit out of him now knowing he's offline?"
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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Karp » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:19 pm #468392

admin complaints is already psuedo ban requests lol

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby DrunkenMatey » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:42 pm #468412

The "resolved" can sometimes appear like you are being brushed off. Admins should be comfortable in explaining their rulings as any ruling could potentially spawn a appeal or complaint thread. So maybe they can go "issue resolved, let me know if you have any others questions/concerns" and then if a player really wants to know more about the resolution they can ask, if they are content with "resolved" they can move on.

Can be tricky though if an admin has a lot going on in which case could just say "sorry, lots going on, can't get into discussing this further at the time, send me a forum message if you need more info"

I've dealt with 4 admins over 7 ahelps and 2 of them seemed really dismissive while 2 seemed really cool and helpful. And thats not just "2 of them took actions i wanted and 2 didnt" none of them ever really took actions but the way they interacted with me was a lot more positive and informative *shrug*

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:51 pm #468415

DrunkenMatey wrote:The "resolved" can sometimes appear like you are being brushed off. Admins should be comfortable in explaining their rulings as any ruling could potentially spawn a appeal or complaint thread. So maybe they can go "issue resolved, let me know if you have any others questions/concerns" and then if a player really wants to know more about the resolution they can ask, if they are content with "resolved" they can move on.

Can be tricky though if an admin has a lot going on in which case could just say "sorry, lots going on, can't get into discussing this further at the time, send me a forum message if you need more info"

I've dealt with 4 admins over 7 ahelps and 2 of them seemed really dismissive while 2 seemed really cool and helpful. And thats not just "2 of them took actions i wanted and 2 didnt" none of them ever really took actions but the way they interacted with me was a lot more positive and informative *shrug*

The caveat to this is that if somebody ahelps that "I was griefed by Peter Peterson" and I check out Peter Peterson and he's a traitor, I can't just tell the ahelper that, so I'll go with "resolved." If I don't stick to that in other cases, too, then players with ill-intent could potentially use it to sort of twist an answer on who is and isn't an antag through ahelps.
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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby DrunkenMatey » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:22 pm #468424

That seems fair if the ahelper is still alive; though does anyone actually ahelp while still alive?

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Nilons » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:53 pm #468434

Nabski wrote:I think a generic "This is resolved" works for almost everything. As a player you then know the administrator looked at your issue and has done what they think is right. Going into detail on what specifically was done to the other party involved is difficult because they might be a completely new player, or they could be jim "thin ice" johnson. One would get scolded and the other permabanned.

There's no MUST keep things private, but it's lames to sometimes say what punishments were given and other times not. If it effected a large number of players, it makes slightly more sense to say "hey the HoS was security banned because they were shit"/"Sending lewd cross server messages will get you banned" compared to "I've given the chef a warning to make sure people are actually dead and not just in crit before making them into meat".

Except for when an administrator makes the wrong call (youll be familiar with this) and then players have no way of knowing that. Something being "resolved" pretty much only means that the admin acknowledged the ticket, it doesn't help you get a better understanding of the rules as a player and it doesn't make you feel better if you were wronged.
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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:35 am #468442

DrunkenMatey wrote:That seems fair if the ahelper is still alive; though does anyone actually ahelp while still alive?

Yes

And further, some admins believe you shouldn't even tell ghosts who antags are in case of metacomms or if they come back via ghost roles
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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Cobby » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:14 am #468447

It just results in every tangible ahelp ending up in a big argument that I don't want to have over a videogame.

Does the user get banned? They will argue.
Does the user not get banned? Ahelper will now argue.
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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby LaKiller8 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:25 am #468449

I'm of the opinion that admins should go beyond a simple "Resolved". Of course, the exact ruling/punishment should be kept private, unless the punished player talks about it themselves.
I think it's important to tell a player that is curious and involved in a case if what the other party did was okay or not okay, for example - "Yes, what the captain did was not okay and it has been dealt with." or "No, what the assistant did was okay in this scenario."

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Cobby » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:58 am #468454

LaKiller8 wrote:I'm of the opinion that admins should go beyond a simple "Resolved". Of course, the exact ruling/punishment should be kept private, unless the punished player talks about it themselves.
I think it's important to tell a player that is curious and involved in a case if what the other party did was okay or not okay, for example - "Yes, what the captain did was not okay and it has been dealt with." or "No, what the assistant did was okay in this scenario."


That's what rulings are?

I'm making the assumption that if you're ahelping you're making the assumption it's not permitted with your lesser amount of information. Usually i'm willing to tell you if it's typically allowed or not, but i'm not going to regularly tell people why this particular instance is/isn't allowed (most of the time because I have information the ahelper does not).

If no one is willing to write the rulelist to fit the 1000 different permutations of a situation then why do people think admins want to do it ingame for every situation lol. If you think it should have been handled more severely we have admin complaints where someone can go on the forums while they're not ingame to explain to their hearts content how they came to such a conclusion. I'm simply not going to do that for every ahelp and shouldn't be expected to.
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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby LaKiller8 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:44 am #468468

Cobby wrote:
LaKiller8 wrote:I'm of the opinion that admins should go beyond a simple "Resolved". Of course, the exact ruling/punishment should be kept private, unless the punished player talks about it themselves.
I think it's important to tell a player that is curious and involved in a case if what the other party did was okay or not okay, for example - "Yes, what the captain did was not okay and it has been dealt with." or "No, what the assistant did was okay in this scenario."


That's what rulings are?

I'm making the assumption that if you're ahelping you're making the assumption it's not permitted with your lesser amount of information. Usually i'm willing to tell you if it's typically allowed or not, but i'm not going to regularly tell people why this particular instance is/isn't allowed (most of the time because I have information the ahelper does not).

If no one is willing to write the rulelist to fit the 1000 different permutations of a situation then why do people think admins want to do it ingame for every situation lol. If you think it should have been handled more severely we have admin complaints where someone can go on the forums while they're not ingame to explain to their hearts content how they came to such a conclusion. I'm simply not going to do that for every ahelp and shouldn't be expected to.


Yes, but it's turning a specific ruling into a binary okay/not okay the player can use to further their knowledge and sense of what is acceptable and what isn't. Plus the players will appreciate getting at least some bit of closure beyond a simple "done".

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Not-Dorsidarf » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:55 am #468518

Considering that the OP is one of those people who are well known to ahelp literally everything in the hope that an admin will slip up and say “valid” instead of “resolved” I don’t have much hope for this policy being implemented
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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Dax Dupont » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:31 pm #468549

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Considering that the OP is one of those people who are well known to ahelp literally everything in the hope that an admin will slip up and say “valid” instead of “resolved” I don’t have much hope for this policy being implemented

This is correct. Since gouty is all about transparency I'm sure it doesn't hurt to share this information.

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby DrunkenMatey » Sun Jan 13, 2019 8:51 pm #468765

Rekt.

Guess it just has to be case by case at admin discretion

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby lmwevil » Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:45 pm #468778

this is a dumb thread, however in short, you have no right to know anything about how an admin punishes/doesn't punish another nerd - for example if someone seems quite heated over a ticket i'll just tell them it was handled appropriately when it's over since a debate often occurs

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Karp » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:04 am #468802

This was polled already unless the headmins want to change it or repoll it to check current attitudes around it
https://atlantaned.space/statbus/poll.php?id=178

My stance if you want to know is that it's case by case, if someone repeatedly asks for information and then gets offended by the actions taken i'm less likley to be direct about it but if they're more accepting I'll straight up tell them anything they want about the incident

I start out pretty trusting though with everyone

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Ayy Lemoh » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:41 am #468814

Dax Dupont wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Considering that the OP is one of those people who are well known to ahelp literally everything in the hope that an admin will slip up and say “valid” instead of “resolved” I don’t have much hope for this policy being implemented

This is correct. Since gouty is all about transparency I'm sure it doesn't hurt to share this information.

hey guys i think admins should say if someone is banned or not

ah but you forgot one thing, noob. you are actually a bad person. i have won the battle and will win the war.

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby oranges » Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:40 am #468856

A pretty childish crack but we're not above them.
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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Gouty » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:48 am #468869

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Considering that the OP is one of those people who are well known to ahelp literally everything in the hope that an admin will slip up and say “valid” instead of “resolved” I don’t have much hope for this policy being implemented


While I appreciate the craic I think that's unfair, and also an unconstructive comment that is an attack on my character, rather than the subject proposed. You are implying that I ahelp to get information about the round, which I don't, I already mentioned that this wasn't to do with cut and dry cases of "is it valid or not". Also, players are constantly encouraged to ahelp during the round, even the small things so admins don't end up with a torrent of "x killed me and wasn't a traitor" at round end. So to be chided for it is shitty.

Dax Dupont wrote:This is correct. Since gouty is all about transparency I'm sure it doesn't hurt to share this information.


I am about transparency, and I am glad you bring this up because if you have an issue with the frequency which I ahelp then I'd like to know about it so I can know what I am doing wrong. I'm also happy for you to share any specific example of when I have used ahelps to game the system if I'm going to be accused of it.

Perhaps I should have been clearer at the start or given some examples.

Say you suspect someone of metacomms and inform the admins, or you see as a ghost that a borg is not following its laws, would it not be in the administrators interest to communicate with the ahelper? Even if it was in the negative to say "I've looked into it and that's not the case" or in the borg example "Seems like a genuine mistake"?

The main justification against transparency, a least the one stated in this thread, seems to be "because someone will argue"

Dax Dupont wrote:Because they'll argue endlessly [...]

Cobby wrote:It just results in every tangible ahelp ending up in a big argument [...]


That's pretty weak seeing as all you have to do is explain what you did and close out the ticket, if someone continues after they are told the outcome you can close it out and even reprimand under Rule 6

With this justification, literally all you are doing is obscuring your ruling so that you are not accountable.

Plus if I don't know that bad man has been banished how do I get my justice boner on? Please, don't give me justice blue balls.
Last edited by Gouty on Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby leibniz » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:32 am #468871

A feature that would deliver the ruling to the ahelper when the endround messages are displayed might fix problems, it would increase accountability a bit.
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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Tlaltecuhtli » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:06 pm #468909

Cobby wrote:It just results in every tangible ahelp ending up in a big argument that I don't want to have over a videogame.

Does the user get banned? They will argue.
Does the user not get banned? Ahelper will now argue.


well turn off admin if you dont want to argue with people

if someone ahelps for how escalation works he is valid in all cases, the only difference is if he gets banned or not, there is even an "ic issue" botton which is pretty much screams "yeah he is valid but not ban worthy"
examples:
man is antag and kills -> valid but no ban
man escalated (justified) and kills -> valid but no ban
man escalated (unjusustified) and kills -> valid and ban
4noraisins -> valid and ban

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Gamarr » Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:57 pm #468919

Nothing at all. Getting any response is a courtesy and privilege that is not guaranteed nor something to be expected. Admins are bureaucrats. A Player deserves nothing but is given a world on a platter with someone actually at the wheel for their benefit in this case of tg.

Bad rules or an easily-gamed system is a separate issue altogether but part of how that happens is by having an easily known system. Knowing the boundaries so easily lets them always argue it, too. More harsher/longer bans don't harm a properly healthy server because a good game will nonetheless bring in new people, and old ones.

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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:24 am #469029

leibniz wrote:A feature that would deliver the ruling to the ahelper when the endround messages are displayed might fix problems, it would increase accountability a bit.

good solution here. it would still lead to "hahahaha get banned faggot" in OOC afterwords which i think is in bad taste, but it would at least allow us to resolve ahelps more descriptively without the risk of accidentally telling players if somebody is/isn't a traitor before roundend.
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Re: How much can/should an admin tell you about rulings.

Unread postby Screemonster » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:23 am #469305

PKPenguin321 wrote:
leibniz wrote:A feature that would deliver the ruling to the ahelper when the endround messages are displayed might fix problems, it would increase accountability a bit.

good solution here. it would still lead to "hahahaha get banned faggot" in OOC afterwords which i think is in bad taste, but it would at least allow us to resolve ahelps more descriptively without the risk of accidentally telling players if somebody is/isn't a traitor before roundend.

Make the resolve ticket button pop up a box with an optional message for the person that opened the ticket to be displayed at round-end. All they get during the round is an automated message telling them that it's resolved, roundend they get "yeah they're an antag it's valid" or "I spoke to the dude" or "yeah sorry this isn't actionable" or whatever


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