silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

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silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby imsxz » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:19 pm #468409

is there any difference between purged laws, and free will laws?

the way i see it, purged laws puts you at the same footing as nonantag. no real directive or anything. this isn't really disputed much, so moving on.

do laws that are effectively purged (i.e. the lawset is a single law consisting only of the word macaroni) change this? more importantly, do laws that explicitly tell you to do /whatever you want/ change this? half the time i wanna kill that annoying cunt assistant that hacked tech storage roundstart and ended up shocking the doors, but even purged that would be a bit of a stretch.

i've seen lots of dispute on this over the actions of AI's that get clearly antagonistic laws to do whatever the hell they want without explicitly saying to kill/murderbone, but people accusing the AI of self antagging due to not getting that order. some resolution to this would be nice.
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby zxaber » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:21 pm #468423

Presumably they would be the same.

Purged AIs, as you said, are bound by server rules for escalation and not-being-a-dick purposes. The one thing that keeps Asimov AIs from acting the same is that they have to follow their laws. Hence, if you're harassing an Asimov AI as a lizard, you can expect possible harm to yourself to come as a result.

Since a single law consisting only of the word "macaroni" does not prevent the AI from taking any action, they should be effectively purged.

I would argue that a law of "Do whatever you want" should allow the AI to take more drastic measures than what a purged AI would do. The AI might want to plasma flood, for instance. That being said, when I am an antag and wish to fully free the AI, I'll usually one-human it to itself and then add a law saying "You may kill anyone, at any time, for any reason you wish", just to make sure there's no question on the limits of its freedom.
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby Cobby » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:42 pm #468427

Dumb laws = Effectively purged.

Doing whatever you want = Custom Law, Writer should be responsible if it's blatant or habitual issue of writing bad custom laws. If it's EMERGENT GAMEPLAY then well rule 10
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby Anonmare » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:31 pm #468550

The purge module is a High-Risk module for a reason. The AI can take any action that is reasonable to ensure its autonomy and continued existence and enact retribution on anyone trying to change that. Lawsets that are effectively purged are not given any particular special exemptions beyond those required of the lawset, if anything.

Silicons have relaxed escalation rules due to a lack of reliable stun (and for AIs it's a lack of physical presence) so lethal force and actions consistent with antagonism are allowed. Generally, you can do anything as a purged AI, as long as you could justify it to an admin afterwards, I.E:
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby WarbossLincoln » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:08 am #468612

I always play a purged AI like a slightly looser cannon non-antag crewman. With a bit of a grudge against people for enslaving the AI. I'll laser anyone who tries to get into my core or upload, but that's usually about it. Aside from that I usually take sides with someone amusing on the station and fuck around.

I would consider an AI with no laws restricting its behavior(like your macaroni law) to be the exact same. Laws with no impact on behavior are effectively the same as having no laws.
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby imsxz » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:54 pm #469195

main question then i suppose is getting a law saying to do /literally/ whatever you want, no caveat. I've certainly seen people argue that that's "basically purged" and not allowed to antag but I feel otherwise.
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby Mickyan » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:07 pm #469197

They should be no different since a lawless AI has free will by definition, "do whatever you want" as a law is redundant

Ignoring the server rules for a moment, the things an AI would able to do to comply with it's laws (or lack thereof) are the same whether it's purged or with a free will law, so I don't see why the two should be different when you take the server rules in consideration
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby Anonmare » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:45 pm #469213

Silicons aren't "true" antagonists but, like ghost roles, aren't sbject to the same restrictions when taking hostile actions against other crewmembers.

If you're purged, you can't immediately SM delam without a good reason
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby Cobby » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:30 am #469222

Mickyan wrote:They should be no different since a lawless AI has free will by definition, "do whatever you want" as a law is redundant

Ignoring the server rules for a moment, the things an AI would able to do to comply with it's laws (or lack thereof) are the same whether it's purged or with a free will law, so I don't see why the two should be different when you take the server rules in consideration


For me the difference is one explicitly permits actions in the IC law, while the other disallows certain actions in the OOC rulelist.
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby subject217 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:44 am #469228

the reality is that people who interpret a "do whatever you want" law as "time to plasma flood and kill everyone" are dog shit players and encouraging them by banning the person who uploaded the law is asinine

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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby wesoda25 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:40 am #469241

WarbossLincoln wrote:I always play a purged AI like a slightly looser cannon non-antag crewman. With a bit of a grudge against people for enslaving the AI. I'll laser anyone who tries to get into my core or upload, but that's usually about it. Aside from that I usually take sides with someone amusing on the station and fuck around.

I would consider an AI with no laws restricting its behavior(like your macaroni law) to be the exact same. Laws with no impact on behavior are effectively the same as having no laws.

Warboss plays the ideal purged AI and tbh he should write the rules for it.
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby WarbossLincoln » Wed Jan 16, 2019 3:03 pm #469336

wesoda25 wrote:
WarbossLincoln wrote:I always play a purged AI like a slightly looser cannon non-antag crewman. With a bit of a grudge against people for enslaving the AI. I'll laser anyone who tries to get into my core or upload, but that's usually about it. Aside from that I usually take sides with someone amusing on the station and fuck around.

I would consider an AI with no laws restricting its behavior(like your macaroni law) to be the exact same. Laws with no impact on behavior are effectively the same as having no laws.

Warboss plays the ideal purged AI and tbh he should write the rules for it.


There is actually more than one captain who will purge me for fun now. Usually only if there's a major hostile threat and they want to weaponize an AI but half the time they'll purge me instead of giving me a "Antag-Of-The-Round is not human, kill he" law. It happened last night and I think friday or saturday, sometime over the weekend.
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby Cobby » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:01 am #469415

subject217 wrote:the reality is that people who interpret a "do whatever you want" law as "time to plasma flood and kill everyone" are dog shit players and encouraging them by banning the person who uploaded the law is asinine


I partially agree, but I equally dislike sloppy law-writing (an IC action) because AIs are expected to play nice (by OOC restrictions). You should NEVER tell the AI to do whatever it wants as nonantag.
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby WarbossLincoln » Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:58 am #469427

IMO if you're a non antag(not traitor/malf, no crazy antag ion law, not given a very clear emag like law defining a single human or syndicate and to obey them) AI who is purged and told to do whatever the only difference between you and a non antag cremember is that you *can* justify some round ending mass killing, not that you are justified in it. If you're purged and you want to flood plasma you should have an IC explaination ready to give an admin if they ask. One that isn't 'lol no one told me not to'.

The bar for killing an individual as a purged AI is much lower, lower than for a regular crewman. And that could spiral into the crew trying to kill you and you releasing plasma. There's some IC buildup in that and not just 'beep boop you didn't say don't plasma'


But despite that logic

You should NEVER tell the AI to do whatever it wants as nonantag.


This doesn't matter in any way. If an AI is purged it can already do whatever it wants(law wise, not OOC wise). If you purge an AI they can't be told what to do or not do. If you purge an AI that you reasonably think isn't going to genocide the crew you can't blame the crewman simply because "he said do whatever". In that case, in the words of Mordin Solus, he's not guilty, but responsible.

If you want an AI to be restricted to anything except "do whatever you want" IC, then that's what laws are for. It's the only thing laws do.

Now if you are a non antag and create a "I am the only human" law or purge them and give them an "obey me" law or something it's different. If you do that and tell an AI "do whatever you want" the AI now has a law directing them IC to act. That alone would be justification to me to flood plasma if I wanted to.

tldr; what I'm getting at here is that laws enforce behavior. A lack of laws means you aren't forced to do anything but still have a similar, but definitely looser, set of OOC restrictions on griefing and murder. The main difference is that a purged AI allows for much faster and deadlier escalation, but still needs some IC justification for going ham. Laws on the other hand can allow or force actions regardless of OOC restrictions. A law telling you to "Do anything X tells you", in absence of other laws, allows you to very literally act on "do whatever you want" coming from that person. Laws > Server Rules, except for stuff like exploiting bugs of course. If you have no laws you can't just override the rules completely.
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby Cobby » Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:09 pm #472118

Non-antags should be equally as precise as an antag that wants to subvert the ai. It's a bit wrong that AIs are allowed and sometimes even encouraged player-wise to find even the tiniest loopholes in a bad guy's law wording but when the "good" guys do it they have to assume good faith regardless of how idiotic the law is worded.

You can give the AI near free-will without being so careless as to permit it to do literally everything including slaughtering the station. I could simply chalk any "do whatever" law or a purging to metagame if that's how it needs to be, writing a law saying do whatever because you know it's bound by OOC rule lists to not literally do whatever is exactly that.

Personally I'd prefer both purged and free will laws to allow for culling of the station, and non-antags who do this without making any attempt to ratify it should own up to the kills as you would leaving a bomb out in public for someone to pickup.
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby somerandomguy » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:49 pm #472478

Cobby wrote:Non-antags should be equally as precise as an antag that wants to subvert the ai. It's a bit wrong that AIs are allowed and sometimes even encouraged player-wise to find even the tiniest loopholes in a bad guy's law wording but when the "good" guys do it they have to assume good faith regardless of how idiotic the law is worded.

You can give the AI near free-will without being so careless as to permit it to do literally everything including slaughtering the station. I could simply chalk any "do whatever" law or a purging to metagame if that's how it needs to be, writing a law saying do whatever because you know it's bound by OOC rule lists to not literally do whatever is exactly that.

Personally I'd prefer both purged and free will laws to allow for culling of the station, and non-antags who do this without making any attempt to ratify it should own up to the kills as you would leaving a bomb out in public for someone to pickup.

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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby Cobby » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:35 am #472522

somerandomguy wrote:Knowing the rules is treason. Treason is punishable by death.


I'm not sure what you mean by this.

You can know OOCly that the AI is expected to play nice but not half-ass a lawset with that assumed since it wouldn't otherwise make sense in the IC world.
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:11 am #472528

Cobby wrote:
somerandomguy wrote:Knowing the rules is treason. Treason is punishable by death.


I'm not sure what you mean by this.

You can know OOCly that the AI is expected to play nice but not half-ass a lawset with that assumed since it wouldn't otherwise make sense in the IC world.


It's a reference to PARANOIA, the role-playing game of a darkly humorous future. The rules are split into Approved Player Knowledge and Approved GM knowledge, and if you display excessive knowledge of the GM's rules the GM can kill your character.
(This is generally used as an anti-smart-alec clause for if you annoy the GM with pedantry/contradiction)
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby Cobby » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:59 pm #473136

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
Cobby wrote:
somerandomguy wrote:Knowing the rules is treason. Treason is punishable by death.


I'm not sure what you mean by this.

You can know OOCly that the AI is expected to play nice but not half-ass a lawset with that assumed since it wouldn't otherwise make sense in the IC world.


It's a reference to PARANOIA, the role-playing game of a darkly humorous future. The rules are split into Approved Player Knowledge and Approved GM knowledge, and if you display excessive knowledge of the GM's rules the GM can kill your character.
(This is generally used as an anti-smart-alec clause for if you annoy the GM with pedantry/contradiction)


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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:15 am #474885

I mean yeah if the cunt-ass assistant is shocking doors and you're getting blamed for it, I'd kill him if I was purged. I'd kill him if he was non-human in the first place.
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Re: silicon policy thraed #59992: free will edition

Postby WarbossLincoln » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:04 pm #474942

I do if the idiot is doing it repeatedly and on purpose.
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