Our rules are broken and contradictory

Ask and discuss policy about game conduct and rules.

Moderator: In-Game Head Admins

Current Escalation Policy is

Perfect
2
5%
Pretty good
5
13%
Tolerable
14
36%
Bad
9
23%
Garbage
9
23%
 
Total votes : 39

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DrunkenMatey
 
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Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby DrunkenMatey » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:17 am #468439

The kor of the problem is Escalation:

Escalation
If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator. If you are concerned about being "kill baited" then consider calling security, using non lethal means to subdue your opponent, fleeing, or otherwise working things out (talking them down, getting your stolen items replaced, etc)

You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence. If you think it's unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round.

If you are the instigator in a conflict and end up killing or severely impairing the round of the person you are fighting, you should make a reasonable effort to return them to life at least once or make amends, only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you. This protection doesn't apply to an instigator being killed.

Exceptions: Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.


So the two main problems with escalation there is that
a: you can walk up and crit someone for no reason at all, so long as you ensure they don't die. and
b: If anyone does anything you don't like, you can call it instigating and you can straight up kill them and leave their body where it is.

That is already pretty shitty but it also leads to a lot of contradictions with other rules like "Don't be a dick.
We're all here to have a good time, supposedly. Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules. Legitimate conflicts where people get upset do happen however, as detailed in the escalation section of the rules."

the problem is; escalation policy says basically everything is legitimate. Someone hacks into your workplace? Valid. Pushes you? Valid. But killing and maiming people over random little shit, is being a dick. Looking for excuses to kill or fuck people up is typically dickish behaviour, so these rules do not work well together and leads to admins making rule 1 bans that inevitably get disputed because of the subjective nature of "don't be a dick"
We have rule 1 precedents about random murder but it seems that escalation typically supersedes rule 1; so long as you can come up with the frailest of explanations "well the clown said the mime was a ling, so i killed the mime"

We have a rule 1 precedent against grey tiding and yet we often have the same grey tiders round in and round out; probably because anyone who engages with them has become valid under escalation; and if you try to ignore them they can go pretty far before exceeding escalation.

"Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security."
This one seems countered by escalation as well (they broke in, that is instigating! VALID!), considering you can be murdered by captain, heads or sec for breaking into any of those locations at any time during the round and unless you are a particularly hated player who skips straight to round removal they will almost certainly not get into trouble for it.

"You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety."
This rule is a waste of time because escalation already allows you to kill anyone who instigates a conflict with you by breaking into your workplace, never mind actually breaking or stealing anything.

"The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods."
First off, does this include captain/other heads who have access to non-lethal means of taking people down? Secondly, should this apply to antags at all? Currently if you are a confirmed antag your ass is grass even if you haven't done anything illegal/harmful. If a random tazer shot aimed at a greytider gets dodged by you because you have CARP, you are fucking dead. If you put up a mime 1x3 wall, DEAD. Don't slip on a banana peel? DEAD. Get caught with an emag? DEAD. Obviously this depends on who is playing sec at the time, but I don't think anyone will ever get punished if the person they killed turns out to be an antag, even if they were just guessing. Should we try to enforce this rule at all? So far the only application it ever has is, sec arrests you non-lethally, then takes you back to brig and murders you.

Theres also vague stuff like "Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag." but how do you define acting like an antag? Picking up the a hand tele? Flashing someone in the hallway? Hacking a door open? Not slipping on a banana? Going to the AI upload? Punching someone?

Two of our three current headmins mentioned fixing escalation as part of their platform and I think the majority of players will agree it is broken (not necessarily for the same reasons though) so what will it take to actually see escalation reworked and what do people want to see?

Here is my attempt at better escalation rule; feel free to ignore/mock/praise/whatever.
Spoiler:
IC conflicts are a part of the game but need to be handled without either side breaking other server rules. This means that you cannot kill a player for pushing you or breaking into your office (for the first time). If a player has not initiated violence with you, then you should attempt to resolve the issue similarly, whether by calling for security or using non-harmful means of restraining the player and taking back stolen goods or throwing them out of your workplace. If someone has attacked you then you could attempted to disengage and/or call security or use whatever means at your disposal to protect yourself from further attacks (if they are persisting) but you should ultimately attempt to resolve the issue with the other player still breathing (if barely). As a non-antag you should only resort to lethal force against extremely dangerous individuals (those who are actively trying to murder crew or destroy the station) and not as a first resort against random assholes who are being annoying or people you think might be antags(notify sec/ai/heads if you think someone is an antag, or try to non-lethally arrest them if necessary).

I figure we could add more about employing more direct solutions against people who are persistently causing you grief, but that is already covered to some extent with "You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety."


What do you guys think about Escalation and other rules? Any other suggestions? I think a lot of people have been trying to get some general idea as to what direction the current headmin team is going so maybe we can have either encourage them to move faster or change direction a bit or at least give us a better idea what their goal is.



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lmwevil
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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby lmwevil » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:26 am #468440

escalation is garbage we all know it

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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby Gigapuddi420 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:43 am #468444

"You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety."
This rule is a waste of time because escalation already allows you to kill anyone who instigates a conflict with you by breaking into your workplace, never mind actually breaking or stealing anything.

My interpretation of policy when it comes to breaking into a department is that the breaking and entering itself isn't a typical 'instigation' in of itself unless you broke in and started fucking with the guy working there or something they are working on. This would mean breaking into a department doesn't automatically make you valid to be killed, but does permit the people working there to protect their workplace. If they jump to lethals instead of calling security or using non-lethal methods they themselves are instigating conflict with you but have better protections because you broke in.
"Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security."

This rule exists to discourage rushing all access, you are not immediately valid for breaking into the bridge once this protection has passed. Again, that's just my interpretation because god damn there is no consistent view of escalation policy. The rest I'd have to give more thought on; I can't remember any time I've seen someone get killed for the odd push or shove; maybe because the two either move on or both move on to fighting for real. I've not seen the mythical case of a single push being turned into a green-light for death.
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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby DrunkenMatey » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:30 am #468450

Feel free to ignore this post, I just figured I would add in some stories of times where I got sideways-ed and ahelped, along with the admin responses I got and my take on it.

1:
Spoiler:
Be mime; clown starts shit, disposal him; he declares me a ling with his bright pink text. Sec picks me and has a look and decides I'm ok. HoP gives me all(or most?) access (was prolly an antag), go to engineering for some sweet gloves, wave to CE, get stunned n cuffed n searched. Assistant walks in and takes gloves, CE tries to contain him too, nother assistant runs in with a gun blazing, manages to kill himself, the CE and the other assistant (point blanked a welding tank), I get away mostly unharmed but deaf and cuffed. Before I can get out of cuffs an engineer comes in and grabs me, walks over to where the carnage happened, ties me to a pipe and beats me to death with a toolbox. Admin response was "well he thought you were a ling and you were near some carnage" Seems like shit to me but apparently saying you heard someone is a ling is good enough escalation.


2:
Spoiler:
Wizard round, HoP giving out all access to everyone for wizard hunt. Go to armoury to pick up a gun, wave to warden on way out, he chases me around emptying his tazer on me, then switches to combat shotgun but keeps missing, eventually when he is STILL chasing me in main hall I taze him, at which point captain or someone jumps in and disables me, then they lethal me and warden stuffs me in a locker in sec where I spend the rest of the round. Admin ruling "Additionally, lethal force may be used immediately on anyone trying to enter the armory, is in the armory, or is leaving it" The rule did support this one so I let it go, seems like it could be called rule 1 considering the round but maybe the warden didn't know? they didn't try to kill the rest of the crew who was arming themselves. Maybe add some limitations on the armoury = valid rule?


3:
Spoiler:
40min of peaceful round. Plasma starts coming through vent, hack onto bridge to try and call shuttle or get intelicard to go after AI, captain waits for me to finish hacking 2nd door then shotguns me into crit, regen coma does thing, run back to bridge to my air tank, captain figures im a ling and disables me then kills me then finds out about regen coma and throws me in cloning where i promptly die again as air pressure and toxic air ensures I can't survive without my missing stuff. To the best of my knowledge the admin did not actually ask the captain for his side of this or look into it at all, but just made his ruling based on my initial ahelp. Admin ruling (including headmin) is that it is totally fine. Seems like shit to me, but apparently hacking onto the bridge 40min into a code green round that has started going to shit is still instigating enough to justify shotgun to face even if the guy has a perfectly good disabler in his backpack or better yet, a functioning mouth that could be used to tell someone to "go away"


4:
Spoiler:
HoP promises all access to me and a greyshirt if we can bring him clown's head. we get clown to help us make a monkey copy of him, take its head to HoP, he gives us partial access, grey shirt bro follows someone else into HoP office and stuns HoP and takes access and gives me access, we then try to get clown his access at arrivals but I get caught by a sec officer so I trap him in id console office (delta so he has no access) and he tells i may have helped a syndi who attacked the ligger detective get away, I let sec officer out then see my grey shirt bro cuffed and nearly dead, so I drag him away, uncuff him and then stun the officer who chased us, cuff him and leave him in the main hall infront of witnesses so he will be safe, try to drag bro to medbay but he resists so i go alone for a medkit but cant find him again. officer catches me later and peacefully arrests me, then takes me to sec and says he is mad that i gave him trouble and that the brig got bombed, so he kills me in the gulag teleporter room and gibs me with the gulag shuttle (grey shirt bro also appears to have met same fate). Admin looked into it and found out that my grey shirt bro had infact tried to kill the detective (i didnt know) and had also apparently tried to kill the sec officer when i was trying to take him to medbay (i didnt know) and so admin did agree the gibbing was a bit extreme but generally it was ok and I was happy enough with that. I would prefer that killing non-harmful criminals be less common but I definitely opened myself up to a good ass whooping this round and I guess the sec officer had run into enough other issues that he wasn't willing to take any chances with me.


That's all my death related ahelps in the last 4 months >.>

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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby wesoda25 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:00 am #468456

Tbh replace escalation policy with just “Use common sense”, because thats how admins enforce it anyways.

Situations 2-4 all seem valid to me. Armory is always off limits, and obtaining/spreading all access is a nightmare for sec, it makes sense you got your shit kicked in. Scenario 1 sucks, fuck valid hunters and the admin who upheld your execution.

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Cobby
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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby Cobby » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:06 am #468457

lmwevil wrote:escalation is garbage we all know it


escalation is great but no one wants to enforce it properly to force a culture change.

If we told people to use nonlethal options or call sec (oh no there's now a demand for sec players!!!) or lose when they fight rather than enabling them when they start the fight and lose we'd be much better off imo.

Like why bother playing sec except to hunt antags when admins handle every instance of IC crime that escalates for you? I just have never understood why this set of admins and last set simply couldn't see the bigger picture and why these rules exist in the first place.
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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby subject217 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:20 am #468459

yah everyone on the station running around with stun gear at roundstart (as opposed to the current state where about 25% of them do it) so they don't get their round destroyed by random grifflords is definitely a healthy and positive culture change thank you for the hot lowpop sybil take cobby

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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby Malkraz » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:29 am #468463

Cobby wrote:If we told people to use nonlethal options or call sec (oh no there's now a demand for sec players!!!) or lose when they fight rather than enabling them when they start the fight and lose we'd be much better off imo.

I stopped calling for sec long ago when I realized
A. They don't give a shit
B. Will often make the situation worse when they do show up
C. I could solve the problem better myself
I agree that escalation could probably use some work, but the reason the "culture" has turned out the way it has isn't explicitly because of what the enforcement of the rules allows.
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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby oranges » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:02 am #468490

no u
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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby Not-Dorsidarf » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:58 am #468519

Calling someone out as an antag should count as lethal escalation and make you responsible for anyone actually killing the guy, make people think twice about yelling “so and so is a ling!” Fnr
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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby Screemonster » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:40 am #468524

I always read the "act like an antag, get treated like an antag" as a shield so that if you had a genuine reason to think that someone might be an antag (such as attempting to break into your workplace, steal high-value shit, and start fights with one particular guy all shift) and dunked them, you won't cop a ban just because the end of round text didn't give you the greenlight for the kill.

Problem is you can never have a concrete line for "what is acceptable non-antag troublemaking" because (a) if someone does it and doesn't get banned then it's a hard tell for valids, (b) people will toe it hard and (c) it's the kind of thing that's heavily reliant on context anyway

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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby Fatal » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:45 pm #468545

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Calling someone out as an antag should count as lethal escalation and make you responsible for anyone actually killing the guy, make people think twice about yelling “so and so is a ling!” Fnr


This should include people shouting over the radio that security are killing them when they are merely being arrested / permabrigged too

The tide rushing to free their brethren from the brig doesn't happen too often but, it does happen sometimes

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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby somerandomguy » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:52 pm #468548

Fatal wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Calling someone out as an antag should count as lethal escalation and make you responsible for anyone actually killing the guy, make people think twice about yelling “so and so is a ling!” Fnr


This should include people shouting over the radio that security are killing them when they are merely being arrested / permabrigged too

The tide rushing to free their brethren from the brig doesn't happen too often but, it does happen sometimes

the problem is they wont have time to type it if the officer starts taking off their headset or harmbatoning them

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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby Screemonster » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:10 pm #468557

Fatal wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Calling someone out as an antag should count as lethal escalation and make you responsible for anyone actually killing the guy, make people think twice about yelling “so and so is a ling!” Fnr


This should include people shouting over the radio that security are killing them when they are merely being arrested / permabrigged too

The tide rushing to free their brethren from the brig doesn't happen too often but, it does happen sometimes

I fully support a policy of "if you yell out on the radio that security are doing something they aren't, then security have valids to actually do it"

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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby Cobby » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:32 pm #468560

subject217 wrote:yah everyone on the station running around with stun gear at roundstart (as opposed to the current state where about 25% of them do it) so they don't get their round destroyed by random grifflords is definitely a healthy and positive culture change thank you for the hot lowpop sybil take cobby


We’ve enforced it at the beginning and this didn’t happen, and this was when I played on basil when it was high pop.
Malkraz wrote:
Cobby wrote:If we told people to use nonlethal options or call sec (oh no there's now a demand for sec players!!!) or lose when they fight rather than enabling them when they start the fight and lose we'd be much better off imo.

I stopped calling for sec long ago when I realized
A. They don't give a shit
B. Will often make the situation worse when they do show up
C. I could solve the problem better myself
I agree that escalation could probably use some work, but the reason the "culture" has turned out the way it has isn't explicitly because of what the enforcement of the rules allows.


Right well as long as you outrobust them more power to you lol. I think this would be less of an issue if sec had a strong pop to handle lesser issues as opposed to a few that have to constantly antag hunt all the time.
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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby Nilons » Sat Jan 12, 2019 6:36 pm #468572

They were fine when they were enforced as written instead of having a bunch of secret clauses and caveats that can be pulled out based on how much admins like the player
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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby subject217 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:54 pm #468588

fact: people who currently only admin low pop 3 hour sybil rounds do not have relevant opinions on the current state of escalation policy and how it works out

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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby PKPenguin321 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:32 pm #468602

Nilons wrote:They were fine when they were enforced as written instead of having a bunch of secret clauses and caveats that can be pulled out based on how much admins like the player

I don't think there was ever a time where the rules were only what was explicitly written, there have always been more in depth clauses
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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby teepeepee » Sun Jan 13, 2019 3:46 am #468631

The rules are okay, it's the shitty and arbitrary enforcement that makes it look bad. When something an admin doesn't like is allowed by the rules, instead of changing the rules and punishing it from that point on forward, they don't change the rules and just apply a retoractive punishment. This makes it so players don't really know what behaviour is acceptable cause admins at any time can punish them even when the rules are on their side, and at the same time rule-breaking behaviour is allowed. If things should work that way, any rule that isn't rule 0 shouldn't exist, since the others will just mislead players into thinking that by reading and undertanding them they can achieve an acceptable behaviour. The truth is they should just adminwho everytime they login and know the admins and their thoughts on different things.
While a perfect set of rules can't really be achieved without a million ammendments as things go, I think that is preferrable to this middle ground where sometimes rules matter and sometimes you'll just be dicked sideways by an admin. Either that or full on admin discretion without misleading.

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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby Nilons » Sun Jan 13, 2019 1:34 pm #468696

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Nilons wrote:They were fine when they were enforced as written instead of having a bunch of secret clauses and caveats that can be pulled out based on how much admins like the player

I don't think there was ever a time where the rules were only what was explicitly written, there have always been more in depth clauses

Specifically the escalation policy is what I meant but forgot to mention it, when it was initially introduced and enforced as written it was good. The rest of the rules you're right theyve always had that. The difference is that the main rule exceptions and clauses were shown in the rules page itself and players dont have to be piece them together from ban appeal results like how it is with escalation policy's
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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby DrunkenMatey » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:28 pm #468955

Think any headmins will share their thoughts/plans? Granted 35+ votes isn't that many n all but does seem like the vast majority sees room for improvement in regards to escalation at least. Would be nice to know if that is likely to happen.

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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby Yakumo_Chen » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:47 pm #469126

That whole example shit you posted looks like it's just a case of "Sometimes you just lose", which I am pretty sure is still a rule in the books? There doesn't have to be a ban or admin retribution every time you die to something stupid and unfair. It's hard to agree with it when it happens, but sometimes things just spiral out of your control for a multitude of reasons and you can't lay the blame on just one person. (and before some cheeky fucker gets a chance, yes, I'm just as guilty of getting cheesed by this too)

The only thing I've taken out of this thread so far is that greytide is still cancer and we should be doing something about it.
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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby DrunkenMatey » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:31 pm #469165

Yakumo_Chen wrote:That whole example shit you posted looks like it's just a case of "Sometimes you just lose", which I am pretty sure is still a rule in the books? There doesn't have to be a ban or admin retribution every time you die to something stupid and unfair. It's hard to agree with it when it happens, but sometimes things just spiral out of your control for a multitude of reasons and you can't lay the blame on just one person. (and before some cheeky fucker gets a chance, yes, I'm just as guilty of getting cheesed by this too)

The only thing I've taken out of this thread so far is that greytide is still cancer and we should be doing something about it.


I've always taken the "sometimes you lose" to be more about getting killed by antags or random destructive shit; rather than as a justification for non-antags to murder with little to no escalation. I really don't get salty about dying to antags, they doin their jerb. I may be in the minority on this one, but I think non-antags should avoid killing anyone who isn't a murderboner (nuke ops, wiz, cult, some revs, tater with sword/gun runnin around, etc). Getting killed by a suspicious guy who pulls a weapon on you cause you tried to talk to him is fine and part of the game, knee jerk dropping everyone you see as a non-antag cause you are terrified they might be an antag about to kill you is pretty shitty.

And yes greytide can still be really cancerous. I think that does feed the problems a bit; on the one hand it is kind of a fun dynamic between tiders being little shits and sec having to smack them around... when their is some degree of RP going on with the interactions it can lead to some fun stuff; but if you get the tiders who start trying to destroy the brig and/or all the sec officers because one of them got jailed for 2min over mugging a sec officer or something, or you get the sec officer who starts executing tiders over tabling the clown... it turns to shit; also turns to shit if the tiders are causing more trouble than the antags and now sec is too busy dealing with them than the antags... so it is kind of a sweet spot of harmless to mostly harmless pranks that sec can deal with or ignore as needed based on how much serious shit is going on. When it gets outside that range it usually ends up being toxic and makes people not want to play sec.

The hope though; is that improved escalation and maybe some other rules tweaks could lead to a bit more consistency in admin rulings and less wiggle room for people who try to justify bad behaviour by pointing at vague rules and that could in turn lead to less problems with tide and maybe sec being less awful to play. I'm allowed to be optimistic.

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Karp
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:54 am
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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby Karp » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:01 am #469266

If someone runs around critting people like a dick they'll get bwoinked, a certain level of shittery like that is allowed and somewhat enabled by our current ruleset to try to force interesting nonantagonist conflicts which partially allows critting someone but if someone mass crits people or repeatedly does it round after round without cause like a dickhead they'll eventually get bwoinked and banned for being a shithead

Antagonists are fair game to execute so people wont try to bitch about being killed as one. The point of that rule is that security shouldn't jump to executing people over more minor things like hacking things, a small disarm fight between assistants, or someone breaking into a department where a security officer is. This is due to their nonlethal weaponry giving them such a massive edge against everyone who lacks a ranged option or some form of projectile deflection, or in the case of someone more violent a suggestion to try to use nonlethals before jumping to lethals that isnt actually something that gets enforced.

Idk if people said it above but the department thing is to explicitly prevent assistants from constantly breaking in and ruining shit, same with the head situation. If you break into a department and you start messing with things their only realistic options are to hope security stops validhunting to help them or kill/crit the shitter

The nonantag acting like an antag thing references people who run around with flashes pretending to convert people, people pretending to be a traitor or ling over comms, or people actively antagonizing security on the borderline level that a traitor would.

The reason current escalation policy enables a liberal use of violence is because violence IS the only option for 90% of the station, short of security and maybe command personnel, violence is the only way to incapacitate someone for long periods. Current escalation policy wants to encourage nonantagonist violence for conflict reason and to make it so that not all conflict=antagonist both to spice the round up without antagonists and to enable people to defend themselves without being banned or warned because timmy mcshitstain broke into research and tried to print two bags of holding and the mean science man beat him to death instead of critting him or stunning him and following out a very specific and intricate policy of escalation

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Yakumo_Chen
 
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:08 pm
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Re: Our rules are broken and contradictory

Unread postby Yakumo_Chen » Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:22 am #469274

've always taken the "sometimes you lose" to be more about getting killed by antags or random destructive shit; rather than as a justification for non-antags to murder with little to no escalation.
Disagree on this one. As the IC button from ahelps often will be replied to you, Losing is a part of the game. Sometimes a series of minor acts of griff and escalation lead to you getting killed by the guy who heard on the radio you were a ling. Sucks, and it's often not really fair, but it happens. SS13 is a game of imperfect information and sometimes you just have to wait for the next round to not be dead. Admins have enough shit to worry about and forcing them to go on a detective hunt every time you die to circumstances far beyond your control is probably doing more harm then good.

it turns to shit; also turns to shit if the tiders are causing more trouble than the antags and now sec is too busy dealing with them than the antags... so it is kind of a sweet spot of harmless to mostly harmless pranks that sec can deal with or ignore as needed based on how much serious shit is going on. When it gets outside that range it usually ends up being toxic and makes people not want to play sec.
The problem is that this happens more often than it doesn't. I know people who consistently break into captain's office at roundstart using disposals every round, and then bitch and moan and call you a shitter powergamer and every other bad thing when you kill them for it. Multiple times. It gets exhausting to play as security and get mobbed and harassed by tide every single round only to get BWOINK when you finally kill the little fucker who has been pushing you and stealing your shit and using your stolen shit to stun you and steal more of your shit, over the course of the entire round. While actual antags ruin the station.
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