Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

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Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:48 am #476201

Yes, I am an angry angry person. I shall weigh the Pros and Cons of this Ruin. Please present your arguments for why my argument sucks and why this is a good ruin.

Pros of keeping this ruin:

-Cargo gets money.

-Security gets something to kill

-Robotics gets something to kill

- Someone gains Xeno-lite powers via surgical implants


Cons of keeping this ruin:

-Xenos once going, have a high chance of spreading like rabbits in Australia with the only thing to do is calling the shuttle.

-They end rounds and go against our current viewpoint of wanting rounds to be longer

-It sets a precedent that round-enders having multiple ways to spawn is ok. (Ok this argument is bullshit but I just wanted to state this. I mean meatyores, the round-start chance at xenobiology, this ruin, the event that can trigger 20 minutes in)

- It promotes Metagame, Self-Antagging, and goes against the current viewpoint that says we should focus more on ghost-roles and less on cloning. (Because the ghost-roles all bumrush the Xenomorph Ruin to self-antag. Some can get away with it because they're already antags. But it just makes them stronger ones. Others just spawn near the ruin, so they can call "probable cause" and as I've been told by multiple admins before if they don't roll the Xeno. It's not self-antag. So it's not anything punishable.)

-It promotes unneeded conflict and the flaws of escalation. (Eg. If you break into science to destroy the round start Xeno egg because you want a long round. The RD will be able to kill you, or even better toss you into said chamber and gib you.) (Eg 2. As a miner, I tossed the Lavaland Xenos off of the shuttle mid-space trip. When a borg brought them back. The RD got pissed at me and got me gulagged for 1000 points for something along the lines of preventing cargo from earning money, and stopping valuable research.)


So, what do you think. Do I have a good argument. Should I disappear back into the shadow realm and let my salt of Xenos voring me and ruining all of my virologist rounds in 30 minutes. Please let me know. Thanks.
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby wesoda25 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:52 am #476203

I think the larger issue with xenoes is xenobio egg (which I think should stay as well).

Honestly its a player problem and said players need to get banned.
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:33 am #476213

It takes a miner to bring xenos to the station anyway
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby SaveVatznick » Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:57 am #476219

Easy solution: Be a miner. Notice Xeno ruin. Say to self : I am not going to fuck with that shit because I know it will ruin the round for everyone. Proceed to not fuck with that shit.

Spoiler : someone else ruins the round for everyone because this is /tg/.
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:01 am #476220

To all of yee.



Ash Lizard with RCDs and round-start knowledge which allows them to know that the shuttle is southwest would like a word with you.


Also, any of the smart lavaland Xenos just spam disarm a chumbis until they forcibly launch it to try and escape.


If that doesn't work, they break all the cameras and windows, leaving an unsuspecting loot hunter/miner to seal everyone else's fate.
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Dr_bee » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:58 am #476236

I think restricting it to 1 spawn a round would be a good change. Xeno ruin can spawn twice and prevent ghost roles from spawning due to its high ruin spawning cost.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Daxxed » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:02 pm #476582

Log facehugs in the xeno ruin and ban everone who does it.
Not a single sane miner will plank to xenos even if they are right outside the mining station.
The only way this could legitimately happen, without intended self antag is if you clear the entire queen area and then accidentally walk over the eggs/alien hugger without killing them first.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:32 pm #476603

Daxxed wrote:accidentally walk over the eggs/alien hugger without killing them first.

Your plan has failed instantly with this argument.

It would be better to remove the facehugger at that point.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby wesoda25 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:42 pm #476621

Daxxed wrote:Log facehugs in the xeno ruin and ban everone who does it.
Not a single sane miner will plank to xenos even if they are right outside the mining station.
The only way this could legitimately happen, without intended self antag is if you clear the entire queen area and then accidentally walk over the eggs/alien hugger without killing them first.

Its easy to kill them if you know what you’re doing. Typically if I get infected I’ll just toss myself onto some lava.
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby oranges » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:55 pm #476622

Yakumo_Chen wrote:It takes a miner to bring xenos to the station anyway

people would rather be an xeno than a miner.

I'm tempted to just go back to the random round event only.
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Shadowflame909 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:31 pm #476637

oranges wrote:
Yakumo_Chen wrote:It takes a miner to bring xenos to the station anyway

people would rather be an xeno than a miner.

I'm tempted to just go back to the random round event only.



Do that.

4 Ways to spawn


20 minute event


I'm wondering how this was just ignored. Aren't Xenos a big round-ending threat?
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Dr_bee » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:13 pm #476645

oranges wrote:
Yakumo_Chen wrote:It takes a miner to bring xenos to the station anyway

people would rather be an xeno than a miner.

I'm tempted to just go back to the random round event only.


I would keep the xeno parts in the meaty ores event but remove the egg sac from the list. That keeps the rare treat but removes its ability to be a round ender.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:10 am #476868

oranges wrote:
Yakumo_Chen wrote:It takes a miner to bring xenos to the station anyway

people would rather be an xeno than a miner.

I'm tempted to just go back to the random round event only.

It still takes a human player to actually transport the xenos up back to the station, whether it be by taxiing a facehugger or the xeno itself. Xenos can't get up to the station by themselves, and if you're infected you go crit from oxyloss before you wake up in the xeno ruin. The only non-blatant "I want xenos on board the station" method is having a miner drag an infected up to the station to """remove the chestburster before it spawns"""

There's almost always a deliberate action involved to get xenos up to the station, unless they're camping the shuttle and it gets sent up from the station. I was a queen once and watched a shuttle land, walked in, and used alien whisper to ask for a taxi ride. Miner obliged.
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby wesoda25 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:08 am #477318

Actually just remove the facehuggers from the ruin.
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:49 pm #483783

Ahem. One of the headmins are like "this ruin is bad" and the other is like "this ruin is bad but just remove the eggs so it can be ok" and I don't know what the last one feels about this ruin.



But since its a new headmin term. For the reasons stated above, I would still like this ruin to go-go-go.
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby 4dplanner » Sat Mar 16, 2019 9:59 pm #483789

remove remove remove

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby confused rock » Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:00 pm #483790

*Everyone hated xenos, they’ve always been shit, the only reason they’re less shit now is because the event pool has been oversaturated and a newfag like you doesn’t have to deal with them every round spamming disarm to gg no re you while being unstunnableand running faster than your mother to the abortion clinic in an alternate reality where she can see what a fucking disappointment you’re going to be.*

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Plapatin » Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:50 am #483896

just take out the eggs and put in some extra xeno-themed loot instead
the argument of "B-BUT MUH RESEARCH" when rds try to justify letting a known to be hostile, excessively deadly antagonist incubate itself in xenobio is the stupidest fucking thing and never, EVER, goes well
call me gay here

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby datorangebottle » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:39 am #483919

Honestly, the xeno ruin just takes up too much space and the majority of miners avoid it anyway. When it spawns, you're guaranteed to have maybe one spawner, if you're lucky. I hate it. Please remove.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Dax Dupont » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:55 am #483948

Keep it, xenos are rare enough as is.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Dr_bee » Sun Mar 17, 2019 6:57 pm #483994

Plapatin wrote:just take out the eggs and put in some extra xeno-themed loot instead
the argument of "B-BUT MUH RESEARCH" when rds try to justify letting a known to be hostile, excessively deadly antagonist incubate itself in xenobio is the stupidest fucking thing and never, EVER, goes well


Xeno organs are the main draw of having xenos. making the ruin's mobs be a source of them would be neat, if you dont give them an egg sac.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:41 pm #484001

Dax Dupont wrote:Keep it, xenos are rare enough as is.


:ugeek: Give me some text to retort this Dax. Because I disagree with the evidence above
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:48 am #484461

i havent seen any problems from xenos spawned here, hell the xenobio egg is more common than a miner bringing huggers to station

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby 4dplanner » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:22 pm #484580

My problem with it isn't spawning xenos, which is rare, but how fucking huge it is and how it takes up space that could be used by more exciting ruins

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Denton » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:19 pm #484632

Sloth ruin is worse in that regard tbh

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Nabski » Tue Mar 19, 2019 8:27 pm #484648

Denton wrote:Sloth ruin is worse in that regard tbh

Not all ruins should be powergaming candy prizes.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby FloranOtten » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:28 pm #484662

Maybe I play during non shitter hours, but I have only seen 2 rounds where a miner caused xenos this year. Xenos ending the round is rare, compared to all other round ending scenarios. If a miner has the xenos burst, you'll already know there's xenos. This makes it suprisingly easy to kill them, provided the crew believes you.

It really isn't the major problem you make it out to be. I do agree with 4dplanner though, we should if not remove at least make it smaller and weigh less. It's a bit of a boring ruin and I'd rather that space be taken up by ghost roles or something.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Shadowflame909 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:44 pm #484664

FloranOtten wrote:Maybe I play during non shitter hours, but I have only seen 2 rounds where a miner caused xenos this year. Xenos ending the round is rare, compared to all other round ending scenarios. If a miner has the xenos burst, you'll already know there's xenos. This makes it suprisingly easy to kill them, provided the crew believes you.

It really isn't the major problem you make it out to be. I do agree with 4dplanner though, we should if not remove at least make it smaller and weigh less. It's a bit of a boring ruin and I'd rather that space be taken up by ghost roles or something.


Well thats because you have tanks and guns an a militia ready to fight it off u tgmc marine!1!

But my experience with the ruin is similarly occasionally from a player standpoint, but more so from a ghost standpoint.

Every 6/8 rounds I see this ruin active. Some jerko uses it.

9/10 of those times, it's a ghost role.

This is my main issue with this ruin. Beach Bums, Lavaland Vets, and whatever other lame useless free respawn ghost role exists. They see free antag. So they use this ruin.

Many of you have said that "But isnt self antag against the rules?/Metagame?" It is, but because of certain variables. This form of doing it, can not qualify as either of those. I know, I've tried.

This ruin negatively impacts the rounds of the antags and non antags alike. As they have to worry about being lone prey for a sanic speed instant stun simple mob.

The majority of the time I see xenos as a player mob. It's because of the terrible 8% roundstart spawn chance in xenobio. The RD always enjoys being given a reason to grief with that one.
Last edited by Shadowflame909 on Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:28 am #485465

Dax Dupont wrote:Keep it, xenos are rare enough as is.

Good. Fuck Xenos

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby imsxz » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:39 am #485696

thread seems very ided tbh. xenos are fun to fight and they have hardcounters available at every stage in the game. i really dont see them that often, a lot of the time they get spotted on spawn and people start arming up.

heres some epic gamer tips for playing against xenos:
-dont go in melee range of queen/prae while it's alive unless you know its tail sweep was used very recently
-play against queen/prae/sent the same way you'd play against a detective revolver (watch for the projectile, carry riot shield, dont run down 1x1 halls EVER)
-wear bio hood
-fire
-xenos suck in space, fly around with a jetpack and ranged weapon and you'll be uncatchable unless one hits a neurotoxin and knows to float out to grab you
-welderbomb via lasergun
-lasers in general
-always shoot them until they die, dont leave them in crit
-mecha in any form
-basic xeno types can be shot with syringe guns, not royal types though
-xeno disarms dont stun if you have an item in your active hand, always strive to hold SOMETHING in your hand when a xeno runs up to you
-xeno disarms dont stun borgs if they have an item selected, keep selecting items while running circles around xenos for lols
-welder+plasma sheets for flash fires
-nightvision and or medhuds are your best friend
-always gut infected dead people, embryo falls out
-riot shields in general are great gotta love RNG
-medhuds will let you see any infected people
-medhuds let you see how damaged xenos are so you know when one is very close to dying
-if you're late in the game, pulse slugs and laser scatter shells
-you can carry lots of ammo in trashbag of holding
-just dont die
remove xenobio and silicons and virology and mining and botany

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:55 am #485700

I would like to restate that

I don't want to remove xenos. I am not butthurt about dying to Xenos. Sometimes you lose at the game. Xenos are a fine clear as day round-ender.

I just don't think ghost roles should be able to turn into one so easily. Like what this ruin offers in free antagonist capabilities so high, and with such a small price.

Since Headmins have shown their disdain for this ruin. I hope that it could be turned off, so no more Ghostroles can abuse it for a pretty dangerous antagonist.
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Nervere » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:48 pm #489435

I'll get someone to make a PR that removes the facehuggers / unbroken eggs from the ruin.
If it doesn't get merged, we'll remove this ruin.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:51 pm #489436

Hell Yeah.
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Daxxed » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:17 pm #489541

Even though I dislike the ruin and wouldn't miss it, the problem is not the ghost roles but the players who play them and the rules rarely being enforced.
I have played many hours as several ghost roles but I have never spawned aliens.
Heck I once died to the aliens by accident and made sure to ahelp.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby terranaut » Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:48 am #489721

>ruin exists
>players arent allowed to interact with it fully
ok?
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:54 am #489725

terranaut wrote:>ruin exists
>players arent allowed to interact with it fully
ok?

You're missing the entire issue and pretending there isn't one. The only way the ruin ever gets activated is by a ghost seeing the ruin, spawning as a ghost role that also spawns near the ruin, and then belining for the ruin with the express intent of getting infected and inflicting xenos on the round. Because this has become a chronic problem, there's no reason for the temptation to remain.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby terranaut » Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:03 pm #489743

cedarbridge wrote:
terranaut wrote:>ruin exists
>players arent allowed to interact with it fully
ok?

You're missing the entire issue and pretending there isn't one. The only way the ruin ever gets activated is by a ghost seeing the ruin, spawning as a ghost role that also spawns near the ruin, and then belining for the ruin with the express intent of getting infected and inflicting xenos on the round. Because this has become a chronic problem, there's no reason for the temptation to remain.

I raided it yesterday as regular crew on extended, for the first time I'll add. The reason I'd assume miners don't go into it unless they want to have chest-bursters is because it has absolutely no useful loot whatsoever, breaking it in will at the very best cost them time and gain them... some meat for the chef and alien hide?
People who desperately want to self-antag will just grab the free golem shells now and use the loosened escalation policy to run/teleport up and killbait. So in 3 months we'll gather here and golems will get the same flavor text change that ashliggers just got and they'll be doomed to singleplayer/golem friends only exile rather than being allowed some roleplay / round interaction stationside as it currently is.
I'm not "pretending there is no issue", I've honestly never seen a miner chestburst in the mining office or drag a live xeno back in the last 2 months on Terry. Sometimes an RD cries for Xenos for research but the miners tend to not give a fuck because there's nothing in it for them.
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby skoglol » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:50 pm #489750

Imo this is an admin issue, not a code issue. If a lavaland ghost role spawns in then immediately digs a straight tunnel to a xeno ruin, just ghostrole ban their ass. Unless they are ash lizards, they have no good excuse to go fight xenos. Even ashlizards using ghost knowledge to find the ruin are breaking the rules.

If this was actually enforced, as I think it should be, people would be wary of doing it. I'm sure some more admin notifications could be added to make this easier to spot as well, maybe along the lines of "<ckey> <ghostrole> infected by xeno larva after x minutes" or something.


Or just remove it, yet again reducing the complexity and depth of \tg\station space station 13.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:31 pm #489757

skoglol wrote:Imo this is an admin issue, not a code issue. If a lavaland ghost role spawns in then immediately digs a straight tunnel to a xeno ruin, just ghostrole ban their ass. Unless they are ash lizards, they have no good excuse to go fight xenos. Even ashlizards using ghost knowledge to find the ruin are breaking the rules.

If this was actually enforced, as I think it should be, people would be wary of doing it. I'm sure some more admin notifications could be added to make this easier to spot as well, maybe along the lines of "<ckey> <ghostrole> infected by xeno larva after x minutes" or something.


Or just remove it, yet again reducing the complexity and depth of \tg\station space station 13.

1) It is enforced so saying "just enforce the rules dumb admins" is a non-starter. When players abuse something long enough that it becomes a chronic problem, remove the thing they're abusing.
2) Currently its not logged at all and that makes it more annoying to administrate in the first place. When a lavaland vet (a useless zero depth or complexity ghost role) rushes the xeno nest (a xero complexity or depth murderbone antag), there's very little papertrail apart from tracking down some of the more esoteric information in the game's logs.
3) The above scenario happens enough (and happens with other ghost roles like lizards and golems) that eventually its just not productive or deterrent enough to just ban the offender and instead it becomes more worthwhile to remove the offending ruin and find something that actually is complex and interesting to add in its place.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby skoglol » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:00 pm #489760

cedarbridge wrote:dumb admins

Don't put words in my mouth. It won't get you anywhere.

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cedarbridge
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby cedarbridge » Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:26 pm #489776

skoglol wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:dumb admins

Don't put words in my mouth. It won't get you anywhere.

You claimed that the rule isn't being enforced. You based this on literally nothing. Enlighten me.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Grazyn » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:00 am #489886

Lavaland blocked from observing when

You can't have any interesting ruins as long as ghost roles can just beeline for it

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cedarbridge
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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby cedarbridge » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:31 pm #489916

Grazyn wrote:Lavaland blocked from observing when

You can't have any interesting ruins as long as ghost roles can just beeline for it

Not very practical. What happens to a player's ghost when they die on lavaland? It gets blinded until it teleports away? Normal players can't watch miners do miner things or fight megafauna because bad actors used the same general feature to look for ruins. You'd have to snowflake a line for admin permissions because admin vision is literally ghost observe vision + a few overlays.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Dr_bee » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:15 pm #489928

cedarbridge wrote:
Grazyn wrote:Lavaland blocked from observing when

You can't have any interesting ruins as long as ghost roles can just beeline for it

Not very practical. What happens to a player's ghost when they die on lavaland? It gets blinded until it teleports away? Normal players can't watch miners do miner things or fight megafauna because bad actors used the same general feature to look for ruins. You'd have to snowflake a line for admin permissions because admin vision is literally ghost observe vision + a few overlays.


Goonstation has ghosts being instantly teleported out of secret areas, but you can still observe people in it. so you can orbit folks and see what they see, but not beyond that.

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Re: Turn off the Xeno Lavaland Ruin

Postby Hulkamania » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:15 am #489957

The following PR was just merged: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/43616 as requested by Nervere.

This removes the infectability of the ruin and solves this issue. If you believe the ruin should still be removed after these changes have applied I would advise making an additional thread, but for now this has been resolved.


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