Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

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Arcanemusic
 
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Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby Arcanemusic » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:34 am #481551

Lavaland Bioweapons and Communications officers are fun. They allow you access to the full creative extent of several more complex, internal systems that can be used as a traitor for mass destruction, like theory crafting grenades, viruses, etc. In theory, this makes it a small sandbox for traitors to try out their ideas. In practice, it's intended to serve as a combination ruin for miners who are able to break into the base, as well as that aforementioned sandbox. One thing of note is that part of the Ghost Spawner's role flavor text is that you're there to perform surveillance on the station, and perform research (IE: Figure out chems, viruses, and basic mechanical setups). The base is heavily defended as a result, being surrounded by a moat of lava, and several automatic turrets to keep possible intruders out, ALA the syndicate shuttle. So, a few rounds ago I was a comms officer with 2 other bio researchers, and a miner RCD'd into the the base, instigating a fight between the base members and the miners. After taking care of the miner, the base members all agreed to raid the station, and a few crew members were shot and killed in the ensuing chaos. Partway I was bwoinked, and told that should the base be discovered, much less breached in such a way, the syndicates should immediately blow the base, and die alongside it. It makes sense with the flavor text, after all, but it seems very rarely followed or understood by players, as more often then not players will know they're being raided and either start defending the base with firearms, explosives, etc, or be killed in the ensuing fight, but hardly ever willingly arm the bomb on the base.

So, the reason for this thread is this: If the goal of the Lavaland base is to experiment and lay low, but to willingly self-terminate the base upon discovery, WHY does the base have so many resources for defending themselves? If the base is discovered, most players in these roles will jump to using the several sniper rifles, handguns, and Eswords at their disposal to defend themselves, considering they're some of the stronger traitor items in the first place. So, wouldn't it stand to reason that they should probably not have access to long range fire arms, if upon discovery their jobs are to not use them except in self defense?

My proposed solution would be to either remove ballistics from the lavabase all together, as they don't match with the need or the theme of the base, let alone how you're supposed to play the role there. Additionally, it should be better emphasized that blowing the base is your FIRST RESORT to the base being compromised, not the last. What are people's thoughts on this?



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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby Skillywatt » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:01 am #481555

I think the main issue here is you left the base to raid the station because you were discovered. the admin may have been trying to convey to you that if things are so bad that you feel the need to launch an offensive on the station, you should be blowing up the base.

I'm making a lot of assumptions here but that's my initial instinct. I don't think that base was ever intended to be a source of weapons/conflict for the station proper.

my thoughts:

kill people who raid you, go on about your business after
kill people who keep raiding you, go on about your business after
if the HoS and all of SEC plus a bunch of greyniggers with stunprods or cargo guns show up, nuke the base

I agree that, if admins are expecting us to blow up the base as soon as confrontation develops, the flavor text should be adjusted.

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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby Grazyn » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:15 am #481627

I don't think admins want you to nuke as soon as you're discovered, it would be counterintuitive and cruel to the players (I know ghost roles have no rights and are always valid but come on)

"I think I'm finally getting the hang of this virology thing, oh wait a miner just walked by I guess I'll just die"

Yes, "blow as a last resort" is one of those things that are hard to perfectly define in policy because what qualifies as "we're clearly losing and soon to be overrun" is different from player to player but banning people for that is a bit too much. If the crew manages to get their hands on some better-than-average guns after an epic fight, how much of a no-fun bitch do you have to be to ban the syndies because they failed to self-destruct?

To be clear, this is different from going friendly syndie and just let the miners take whatever they want, or going on a raid (which should be always cleared by an admin beforehand). Both of these things should be worth at least a warning/note if not a ban.

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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby Dr_bee » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:41 am #481628

Attacking the station and not blowing your lab is kind of the opposite of being secret.

If you wanted to keep playing you should have secretly infiltrated the station after blowing the lab and escape instead of going full murder which your role specifically tells you not to do.

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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby Gigapuddi420 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:35 pm #481653

Skillywatt wrote:I think the main issue here is you left the base to raid the station because you were discovered. the admin may have been trying to convey to you that if things are so bad that you feel the need to launch an offensive on the station, you should be blowing up the base.

Pretty much this, you get guns to defend the place, if the place is compromised to the point you expect you won't be able to defend it from invaders you should consider using the bomb to hide all the evidence and deny them.
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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby Shadowflame909 » Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:22 pm #481666

So what your saying is, we're some kind of suicide squad? Edit: If we choose that role and get exposed?
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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby Dr_bee » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:33 pm #481688

Shadowflame909 wrote:So what your saying is, we're some kind of suicide squad? Edit: If we choose that role and get exposed?


I mean, you dont nessicarily have to kill yourself, you can always sneak onto the station and try to hide away until the shuttle is called or try to continue to help traitors. You need to RP like someone who doesnt want to get found out instead of LUL IM GON GO LOUD the moment someone breaks into the base.

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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby D&B » Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:49 pm #481691

Shadowflame909 wrote:So what your saying is, we're some kind of suicide squad? Edit: If we choose that role and get exposed?


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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby Mickyan » Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:37 pm #481702

Lavaland syndies are specifically told not to leave the base for any reason whatsoever, other than that anything goes (more or less)

I think the admin that handled your ticket either got confused or was just vague for brevity but you got bwoinked for doing the one thing you weren't supposed to do
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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:32 am #481748

Yeah I think you were wrong to attack the station, but right to not set off the self-destruct once you were clear that the miner threat was neutralised.
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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby Arianya » Fri Mar 08, 2019 9:08 am #481773

There's no incongruity here that I can see. You are a secret squad of researchers in a heavily fortified base on lavaland. You are not a crack syndicate assault squad. If your base is discovered and attacked, you should of course defend it first and foremost, using the *considerable* force of arms you have. Failing that, if defense seems impossible, you should blow the self destruct and take any enemy forces with you.

Realistically the station barely cares to recover dead miners when they die to something mundane like a goliath, let alone when they've been idiots and stuck their hand in a wasps nest of syndicates, so I don't buy needing to attack the station in this or really any other case.
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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:44 am #481778

being attacked? do whatever you want
>assaulting the station
flavour text even says “do not leave the base” and yeah you dont leave the base so whatever made you think there is a reason to do it is against the specific ghost role rules if you want to assault the base you choose the free griff role aka ashligger or dont die retard

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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby WarbossLincoln » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:45 pm #481786

IMO I think it would be interesting to try to infiltrate the station secretly. I would probably ahelp it first and tell an admin I wasn't going to murderbone and was only going to bring like 1 stechkin and a mag for self defense.
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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby ThanatosRa » Sat Mar 09, 2019 1:23 am #481837

A thought. Would it be an issue if perhaps one guy stayed behind to blow the base and the others snuck onto the station to escape?
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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:56 am #482002

yes because any reason for going to station as syndicate researcher is bad

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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby Denton » Sun Mar 10, 2019 12:14 pm #482024

You are a syndicate agent, employed in a top secret research facility developing biological weapons. Unfortunately, your hated enemy, Nanotrasen, has begun mining in this sector. Continue your research as best you can, and try to keep a low profile. DON'T abandon the base without good cause. The base is rigged with explosives should the worst happen, do not let the base fall into enemy hands!


"DON'T abandon the base without good cause." could be reworded since "good cause" is a little vague.

Other than that, it should be obvious that you're a bunch of researchers and not the valid squad like ash lizards are.

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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby Gamarr » Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:48 am #482463

Suggested before large ruins that have a great impact on the round by their nature (syndicate base, golem ship, ligger nest spring to mind; not xeno nest because it is npcs and should just be outright removed anyway) should be limited to one per lavaland generation/round. Hopefully they'd get a remapping/rework too, to adjust for this. I.e. no more ligger base 20 tiles from the outpost and making the base into something that is actually neat instead of a bunker you're told you can't fucking leave.

About the rules and base thing, change/remove the damn ruin. Why does it exist other than to be a fucking armed lootbox? The Players that can pop into it are disallowed from leaving or essentially doing anything of remote interest, becoming another giant, useless eyesore on the map with wasted ghost spawns in it.

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Re: Syndicate Lavaland Base is dis-congruent with it's enforced rules.

Postby Dr_bee » Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:23 pm #482969

Gamarr wrote:Suggested before large ruins that have a great impact on the round by their nature (syndicate base, golem ship, ligger nest spring to mind; not xeno nest because it is npcs and should just be outright removed anyway) should be limited to one per lavaland generation/round. Hopefully they'd get a remapping/rework too, to adjust for this. I.e. no more ligger base 20 tiles from the outpost and making the base into something that is actually neat instead of a bunker you're told you can't fucking leave.

About the rules and base thing, change/remove the damn ruin. Why does it exist other than to be a fucking armed lootbox? The Players that can pop into it are disallowed from leaving or essentially doing anything of remote interest, becoming another giant, useless eyesore on the map with wasted ghost spawns in it.


You have never played a round where you were an ashwalker trying to loot the syndicate base have you, it can be an absolute blast and an interesting fight.

Other times ive played where the syndicate base actually reached out to the local free golems, bribed them with technology, and got their help to get a traitor their AI objective. This was a wonderful example of cooperative roleplaying and was an absolute blast to be a part of.

The reason Lavaland ghost roles are somewhat lax is to leave room for events like these to happen, often without anyone on the station ever noticing they are happening.

Shitty cases with ghost roles happen yes, but probably no more so than with assitants on the station, and assistants have more protection under the rules than ghost roles do.

I dont even know if the ruin spawn rates are a config or not, so talking about spawn rates would be better in a different thread anyway.


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