Creating spiders as a non antag.

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Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby MortoSasye » Thu May 16, 2019 11:07 am #493826

Is it not allowed for non antag players to create spiders even when they have clear directives to not kill innocents or cause destruction? This is the basic question that I want to be answered to on this policy thread after discussing a note made by an admin with a player.

My opinion is that punishing someone who made a clear directive to the spiders which wasn't antag-like in nature instead of the players in question that ignored said directive is unjust, but it seems that there are different opinions regarding this and clarification is in order for future decisions made by the admins when this sort of event happens.
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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby Shad0k » Thu May 16, 2019 12:11 pm #493829

At the time, the note was justified because the only spider with a clear directive was the one the xenobiologist sentienced.
With that said, now that new generations get directives as well, I see no reason to prevent non antags from creating them.

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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby imsxz » Thu May 16, 2019 1:53 pm #493843

spiders are cancer and i dont think ive ever seen spiders work when they lay over a few egg clusters because god knows 90% of the people wont read the directive because why would a spider not be antag?? And then everyone they kill will just assume the spiders are hostile naturally and start doing the same rinse&repeat.

IMO it should be treated like cargo making teslas in a public area... Don't really blame the person doing it unless they directly fuck it up or they do it a bunch and it ruins several rounds at which point ask them to cut it out for a bit. Bans for people doing silly memes like this isn't necessary IMO unless they're being excessively careless, if they're giving a good amount of effort to keep it safe only get involved for the sake of the server rather than to punish the player.
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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby Jimmius » Thu May 16, 2019 4:16 pm #493873

Spiders have no way of interacting with the station that isn't violent. Creating a self replicating swarm of hostile mobs with a single line of text saying "tee hee don't kill anyone" feels about on the same level as leaving maxcaps around on extended and then saying "well it's against the rules for non antags to bomb!" when someone inevitably sets them off.
If spiders were like magicarp, in that they had a use beyond horribly murdering everyone, then sure. But creating a swarm of spiders and then saying "don't leave xenobio" does not absolve you of the blame when they inevitably get bored and ignore you.

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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby zxaber » Thu May 16, 2019 8:58 pm #494005

I dunno, I've been a friendly spider once or twice. I even popped into the AI chamber and offered to drag the AI to the shuttle.

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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby knacker48 » Fri May 17, 2019 9:53 am #494228

The way I usually see "friendly" spiders play out is a few leave xenobio, someone attacks them cause they're constantly planting webs, the spiders fight back, the station call them rogue and then everyone dies to undying swarm of spiders. The only time when spiders are helpful is when your fight an even bigger infestation like xenos or the blob.

Also I feel like its almost impossible to get rid of spiders once a few have layed their eggs, aside from depressurizing the entire station. There's just too many and they breed too fast.

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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby Arianya » Fri May 17, 2019 10:07 am #494229

tbh the code solution is to remove spider nurses from the pool and just let people have individual pet spiders without making a infinitely self-replicating army out of spiders + monkeys
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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby Arathian » Fri May 17, 2019 5:41 pm #494293

Hi. I am the guy who made said (non-antag) spiders that kiiinda ended up killing all non-spiders by the end (also a blob).

Quick correction. That happened ~3 days ago, and the bug fix for spiders happened a few weeks ago. The spiders were just murderboning. They did have a directive and they ignored it. The problem in that is both it was lacking memory and it had small text. Both of those are being looked at now and (supposedly) a coder will try to fix them this week.

Personally, I think it's fair to ban non-antag spiders till the change is implemented. Then it's up to spiders to not act like retards like any other non-antag position.

Finally, @Arianya:

That would be terrible. Spiders are extremely weak individually. Xenobio can already make faaar more powerful monsters. Spiders are strong only in numbers.

Is spidertide strong? Of course. But it's also extremely vulnerable. Broodmothers die in 2 hits and egg sacks in 1. From the time one becomes sentient to the time the first eggs burst, they will die if anyone looks at them sideways. The problem is one of oversight rather than the spiders themselves being OP. It needs like 30m of setup and 10m of breeding spiders to do it properly. And that's if things go perfectly.

I believe as spider figure out the strength of xenobio (due to people playing more of it lately), more scrutiny will fall over it, same as with chemistry. Chemistry is as powerful and far quicker, but if they do BS, they get arrested and they know it. It's just sec doesn't know xenobio as well. If they did bother to patrol every now and then, it wouldn't be a problem.

When I was traitor xenobiologist, I fed a spider 50 monkeys and set up a ghetto durand chain production and even semi-advertised I was a traitor and NO ONE came to check on me ever. This is a meta problem. I mean, you have xenobiology building durands and spiders, what did they expect to happen?
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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby datorangebottle » Fri May 17, 2019 6:40 pm #494306

Creating sentient nurse spiders as a nonantag should definitely be bannable, regardless of directive, now and forever. Much like maxcapping as a nonantag or releasing the engine as a nonantag, you are fucking the station over without good reason. The only impacts spiders can have on the round are violent[literally killing and eating everyone] or annoying[laying webs everywhere]. Sure, you can roleplay, but maybe a tiny, tiny portion of the spider population will do this.

Look at it this way. You have a remote-detonated bomb. You use the bomb to blow up a research facility. Who gets punished for bombing the facility, the bomb, or the person who set it off?

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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby D&B » Fri May 17, 2019 8:29 pm #494323

The real problem here is xenobio being able to make 4 types of armies as a non antag department for free
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[20:26:02]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Welp. It was just a prank bro isn't a very good excuse when it comes to unprovoked nonantag murder, but since this is your first time doing it and you seem to understand the problem instead of a bannu I'm just going to leave you with a warning. Please PLEASE don't do this again in the future, as funny as crackhead broken bottle memes can be. Alrighty? Do you have any input on this?
[20:26:39]ADMIN: PM: [censored]->[censored admin]: Alright, no problem. I have some input. Fuck my boy pussy.
[20:27:06]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Okay then. Have fun.
[20:31:29]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Excuse me?

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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby zxaber » Fri May 17, 2019 9:42 pm #494334

Creating a sentient nurse spider is nothing like maxcapping a department. At the very best, it would be like creating a maxcap and then misplacing it for a shitter to find.

We punish silicon players that ignore their laws and kill or maim randomly, why not do the same with spiders that ignore their directive?
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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri May 17, 2019 9:48 pm #494337

D&B wrote:The real problem here is xenobio being able to make 4 types of armies as a non antag department for free


Literally all departments can do this. No joke
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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby datorangebottle » Fri May 17, 2019 10:10 pm #494342

zxaber wrote:Creating a sentient nurse spider is nothing like maxcapping a department. At the very best, it would be like creating a maxcap and then misplacing it for a shitter to find.

We punish silicon players that ignore their laws and kill or maim randomly, why not do the same with spiders that ignore their directive?


It's pretty damn close. Spiders have a reputation for just ignoring their directives and murderboning anyway, especially when you don't even have the first spider set one. You might as well just maxcap the entire station, because it's going to have the same effect- everyone will be dead and mad.

Second, there are a fuckton more spiders in a round than sillycons and it's a lot harder to enforce- the process of 'spiders kill somebody, they come back as a spider, rinse repeat' makes it nearly impossible to punish them individually without spending hours poring over logs and trying to figure out which ones killed someone without cause or violated their directives.

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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby cedarbridge » Fri May 17, 2019 10:11 pm #494344

datorangebottle wrote:It's pretty damn close. Spiders have a reputation for just ignoring their directives and murderboning anyway

So we ban the spider.

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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri May 17, 2019 10:22 pm #494346

Precedent also makes you ban the maker of the spider.

Well precedent of admins. You make a sentient bomb, your responsible when it blows up.
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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby teepeepee » Fri May 17, 2019 11:04 pm #494355

no one forced them to spawn as spiders, it's their fault if they miss or ignore the message telling them they're not an antag, they shouldn't even assume it is that way tbh, being an antag should be something your maker bestows upon you

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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby confused rock » Sat May 18, 2019 6:17 am #494402

I mean the only theoretically good thing a fucking spider could do is push cargo crates, so it isn't unreasonable to imagine "hey, I'm a spider who can do nothing but bite and plant annoying webs, maybe I'm here to bite and plant annoying webs."
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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby Cobby » Sat May 18, 2019 3:11 pm #494429

Arianya wrote:tbh the code solution is to remove spider nurses from the pool and just let people have individual pet spiders without making a infinitely self-replicating army out of spiders + monkeys


but then xenobio won't have a self-replicating army that also isn't golems!!!!!

Also didn't the PR that made directive unchanging alleviate the responsibility of the original scientist so long as they tell spider-zero to set the directive to something nonantagonistic?

The only reason the scientist was previously responsible was because there's no way past several generations that every spider is going to know they were bred out of nonantag actions.
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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Sun May 19, 2019 5:10 am #494517

Nobody bans the roboticist for making loads of cyborgs unless he's also uploading retarded laws to make borgs hostile.

Similarly we shouldn't ban xenobiologists who make mobs unless he gives them shitty directives. Spiders are bound under nurse directives and not just some hearsay from xenobio, hence they are responsible if they ignore that much like a borg would be responsible for ignoring its laws.

The main problem with spiders is that its hard to weed out the bad ones since they are all identical save a number, you would have to catch them in the act, and since spiders can reach in the tens of dozens within a short timespan, it can be hard to track which ones are being shit.
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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby SaveVatznick » Sun May 19, 2019 5:39 am #494520

knacker48 wrote:The way I usually see "friendly" spiders play out is a few leave xenobio, someone attacks them cause they're constantly planting webs, the spiders fight back, the station call them rogue and then everyone dies to undying swarm of spiders. The only time when spiders are helpful is when your fight an even bigger infestation like xenos or the blob.

Also I feel like its almost impossible to get rid of spiders once a few have layed their eggs, aside from depressurizing the entire station. There's just too many and they breed too fast.


This. I've had rounds where I, as a crewmember, ask the spiders to stop rampantly spreading webs everywhere, and some agree, and others do the wordless spidertide thing and continue to annoy people to bait some of the more ill-tempered crew into a reaction in order to start a spider-war. There's no way to tell if cocoons hold innocent crew or catatonic corpses either, combined with spiders seeming to lack a group chat (or universally ignore it). Our players on TG are either too dumb to keep track of who's who/what they should or should not attack, or so bloodthirsty they're fine starting station-wide wars. This doesn't jive well with how spiders are in this fuzzy area of "team antag with no team antag mechanics and not quite an antag, but can't do anything altruistic except annoy crewmembers by spreading webs everywhere". Either the spiders or the crew end up being too quick on the trigger and any amount of spiders above, like, 3, ends up making the spiders a romerol zombie-tier threat.

This likely feels like a code issue, and I do think removing reproducing spiders from the pool is the nuclear option in that it will guaranteed stop nonantag players from starting spider wars then claiming "I didn't know I couldn't do that / I told them not to but they did". However, if our playerbase miraculously drifts towards "Remembering which individuals are hostile and which aren't and coordinating around that as a spider faction which is neutral/ nonantag", I would think it could remain as is. You tell me which is more likely.
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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby Arathian » Sun May 19, 2019 8:25 am #494525

>This likely feels like a code issue, and I do think removing reproducing spiders from the pool is the nuclear option in that it will guaranteed stop nonantag players from starting spider wars then claiming "I didn't know I couldn't do that / I told them not to but they did". However, if our playerbase miraculously drifts towards "Remembering which individuals are hostile and which aren't and coordinating around that as a spider faction which is neutral/ nonantag", I would think it could remain as is. You tell me which is more likely

If the spider directives become bolder and able to be recalled, and then we have a bigger mod oversight on spidertides, it's not that unlikely.

Spiders have a reputation due to (in the past) having no directives after the first generation. That was fixed just last week and now, theoretically, they can be like any other role. Once players figure out spiders aren't a licence to self antag, they will calm their tits.

Basically, the coding issue is more on the notification side imo. Also enforcement/bwoinking side.
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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby WarbossLincoln » Sun May 19, 2019 4:48 pm #494540

someone attacks them cause they're constantly planting webs, the spiders fight back, the station call them rogue


You don't even need to plant webs for this. There's always 5-10 people in a high pop round who will kill any sentient mob that's valid because they only play the game to make sprites horizontal. I used to meme around as a genetics monkey a decent bit but in the vast majority of rounds I would get killed wordlessly by some randomname who can't stop himself from killing any player controlled non-humanoid.
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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby Tlaltecuhtli » Mon May 20, 2019 12:02 pm #494685

i think sentient spider apocalypse is a fun event and should be kept as a late game rng event, xenobio sentient spiders get out of control 50% of the times regardless of antag status and admins usually ignore it as they have to adminpm 10+ ppl about why they killed x y z, sentient pots and gold slimes are almost free already so there is no need for an automated ghost spam message

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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby Shadowflame909 » Mon May 20, 2019 3:47 pm #494699

The xenobiologist makes me as a green spider

Gives me the directive "Do anything you want bro"

Round-ender time
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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Wed May 22, 2019 4:01 pm #495042

Shadowflame909 wrote:The xenobiologist makes me as a green spider

Gives me the directive "Do anything you want bro"

Round-ender time

Time to ban the xenobiololgist or not giving proper directives, then ban you for rule 1
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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby PKPenguin321 » Wed May 22, 2019 7:19 pm #495077

Yakumo_Chen wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:The xenobiologist makes me as a green spider

Gives me the directive "Do anything you want bro"

Round-ender time

Time to ban the xenobiololgist or not giving proper directives, then ban you for rule 1

I would not ban him for rule 1 but yeah that xenobiologist goofed
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Re: Creating spiders as a non antag.

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed May 22, 2019 8:09 pm #495079

Sadly he only got sentience potions 3 minutes before the shuttle docked.

Warned him on OOC after about it though. And said how lucky they were that nothing dangerous happened because of it
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