Doctor is a shit job

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:36 pm #497176

Its very easy to tell a competent CMO/MD from an incompetent one. This was apparent even without the sleeper removal. Yes, the system is very simple and always kinda has been, but I promise your stop at medbay from crit will take a lot less time (and you'll die a lot less times through the process) under care from Phoebe Lotsu or Dalton Wolffe than any randomname. If every player could do these things equally competently, that wouldn't be the case. The problem becomes that this sort of thing is harder for new players to pick up on because the only yardstick to competence is speed.



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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:50 am #497184

phoebe is cool
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:25 am #497198

cedarbridge wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:why the fuck yall talking about sec for no reason (lookin @ u cedar)

His complaint was that med doctors have nothing to do at roundstart. I pointed out that sec has a comparable amount to do at round start and they do it more or less the same way (apart from MD's having several tools that make finding patients easier than sec's tools for finding perps.
He further complained that med's job is "done by everyone" and thus obsoleted. I pointed out that sec's job is "done by everyone" in a similar or more effective manner.

The bigger point is that there's no point trying to make every job homogeneous. Yes, several jobs make things that progress throughout the round and that's neat. That doesn't make a job bad if it doesn't have that feature.

so basically you threw out "B-BUT SEC" when the jobs have clearly different goals
recall this (very good) post
CPTANT wrote:The doctor role is flawed in that unlike the majority of other departmental roles it doesn't actually have the capacity to improve their own department.

Engineering:

Engineers: Improve engine, solars, upgrade machinery, build new machinery
Atmos techs: Set up turbines, improve atmos layout, create exotic gasses

Cargo:

Cargo techs: gather cargo points through crates and bounties
Miners: Go the Lavaland and fuck shit up for loot

Science:

Scientists: Do research, breed slimes, make bombs
Roboticist: build borgs and mechs

service:
Cook: prepare elaborate food
Botany: Grow plants with great power
Bartender: prepare drinks

Medbay:
Chemist: create new medications to treat patients, supply chemicals to botany and science
Virologist: Make useful viruses.
Geneticist: unlock genetics powers
Doctor:?????? Fuck around contributing nothing to the state of medbay at all, perform the occasional surgery.

Doctors do not contribute to improving medbay and any task they would be given that would lead to improving their capacity to heal people would overlap with the chemist.

rather than phrase these things as "capacity to improve your department" i'd consider them as "long term goals." the point still holds, each job tends to have a very clear goal that effectively changes the round in the long term (example: geneticists unlocking powers means these powers are unlocked for the rest of the round). doctors generally lack a long-term goal, and are perpetually stuck on a short-term one ("yeah uh just heal people if they happen to both need it and dont just heal themselves")
sec is different enough to not be comparable in this regard because their long term goal is to catch antags, and generally doing so further impacts their round because they now 1. know the threat ("aha, so there are traitors!") for the rest of the round, 2. can get loot from the antags ("this syndie encryption key could be useful later"), 3. can get intel from interrogations, fingerprint evidence, etc that can lead to future arrests.
They still have short term goals ("arrest that guy if you stumble upon him committing a crime") but doing these lend to long term effects which doctors largely lack.

that much aside, your point doesn't really follow your reasoning.
Yes, several jobs make things that progress throughout the round and that's neat. That doesn't make a job bad if it doesn't have that feature.

"several jobs" meaning just doctor since sec doesn't actually follow this like you believe
"that doesn't make the job bad" is kind of just an unproven assumption on your part, since evidently a lot of people in this thread think it makes the job bad

a more accurate comparison would be the janitor since his deal is to just clean messes as they appear. no long term goals, no real advancement as the round progresses, nothing really. the difference there is that with janitors, that's what you're signing up for. a very simple system of "see mess, clean mess." our medical systems on the other hand are much more varied and complex. you'd think a job that advertises itself as specializing in those systems would be a bit more engaging than playing janitor.
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:35 pm #497215

PKPenguin321 wrote:that much aside, your point doesn't really follow your reasoning.
Yes, several jobs make things that progress throughout the round and that's neat. That doesn't make a job bad if it doesn't have that feature.

"several jobs" meaning just doctor since sec doesn't actually follow this like you believe
"that doesn't make the job bad" is kind of just an unproven assumption on your part, since evidently a lot of people in this thread think it makes the job bad

Did you entirely misread my post just so you could hop into the argument? Where did I claim that sec makes anything? That's the point. Neither of these jobs has a true progression and that's FINE because they serve a different function from other roles on the station. Were it enough that a job not have some creative function to it for a job to be "bad" then nobody would play sec/clown/mime/janitor. Its not an "unproven assertion" because they're all things that already exist within the framework of the game. You're treating the concept that somebody has called something bad (literally an unproven assertion in your own terms) and taking it as evidence of itself. That's lazy.

Also, your list of supposed progression points for sec is nonsensical because, as I already pointed out, literally everyone already does that.
1) You'll hear an assistant shout about the roundtype before you hear a sec officer do it. You've got a lot more vigilantes running around than you do officers 90% of the time and antag actions are usually resolved by those vigilantes rather than the supposedly dedicated sec officers.

2) On several occasions in the past sec officers have been groused at by admins for looting traitor gear for themselves. This has basically never applied to non-sec and further feeds vigilanteism. Don't take this as support for the admins that have done so, but it has happened. You're much more likely to find an assistant with looted traitor gear than an officer with the same.

3) Literally anyone can use a forensic scanner and more often than not its not even needed for investigations. Again, vigilantes are substantially more effective than sec in this regard.

So yeah, I compared med to sec because they operate in a very similar manner and both are positioned where the majority of their job can be done by others or even more effectively by others without department gear or access. I made that comparison responding to that "very good post" you quoted directly because they intentionally mentioned every department on the station /except/ security.

Sec without a visible antag: Wander the halls and maybe make an arrest
Med without a visible antag or medical threat: Wander the halls and maybe patch somebody up from a random injury

So either sec is garbage because they have nothing to do outside of make arrests and create nothing for the course of the round or medical has problems unrelated to their ability to build and/or create things that need to be addressed.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:57 pm #497217

"doctor is boring, they don't have enough to do, so I'm making them incapable of doing what they can do now, so i can justify merging them with chemist so more people will make medicine, even though the players who specifically role chemist get bored of making medicine and start making chlorine trifluoride grenades after making 5 synthflesh patches"

then they're all like "wot if we just make it so people can't heal without doctors" and half the community shits themselves with rage that they can't heal everything theirselves and the other half just builds their own little autistic minimedbay in their department.

no one ever bitches about lawyers and the curator not having enough to do because they get gimmick items like the YELLING BADGE and the laser pointer and the free spacesuit/claymore

so what i'm saying is give every doctor a gun
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Cobby » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:35 pm #497220

Whoneedspacee wrote:The doctor job takes no skill and something a very experienced doctor can do someone with a wiki page open can do in the exact same way with the exact same speed. On top of this unlike most jobs there's no meta being evolved or adapted for medical, making it a very boring pick, especially since for newer players there's no one to look up to as an ideal. I've inspired my fair share of people to get good at jobs like mining and atmospherics, medical has no such person.

If you want to make people interested in a job you have to add some skill to it, it's as simple as that, the best medical doctor should be vastly better than a person who hasn't played the job very much, which is not the case right now. Players aren't being rewarded for playing medical doctor and a security officer with access to medical can do as good or better than people who have been playing medical doctor all round and are also experienced at the job.

Security who have the intention of being medical are analagous to combat medics. They're able to deal with antagonists and prioritize their own lives, making them much more effective and they can keep going. Paramedics however generally just get gunned down or destroyed when medbay is inevitably bombed or attacked.

Medical doctor needs something that they themselves can do that influences the pacing of the game. Something like revival surgery should be better than cloning but it just ends up being a long term recovery process that is overall worse than a max upgraded cloner, even though surgeries like revival take up so many techweb points of their own.

If you use revival surgery on someone they are inflicted with major traumas which can only be cured by brain surgery (which always has a chance of failing by the way and massively fucks up the patient), have a low amount of blood generally, have brain damage, etc. It's easier to just literally build more cloners, and you don't need techwebs to unlock an advanced surgery which can only be performed at a surgery table with a surgery computer.

However I don't even recommend just buffing this stuff without adding some skillful element to surgery and healing, because it's unreasonable to buff something that takes no skill, it shouldn't be better than someone who has mastered their craft.

tl;dr Doctor is a shit job


The atmos content and mining content that was added has little to do with the station. Atmos gives them research/money if they make cool gasses but nothing bad happens if they're bad and can't make it. Also atmos is a wiki reading job, if I recall correctly it was so consistent that you actually made a video long ago on how to reliably setup extremely powerful bombs which people could do literally every single round.

Mining is just boss changes and doesn't affect the rest of the station. Miners just get their minimum amount of mats (which is plenty for the station) and then go afk in lavaland until dead or decked out in loot to kill antags. Nice thing about mining is that even if you know the attacks, there's still an element of randomness that keeps it refreshing and not "wiki friendly".

Medical however affects everyone in literally every change. If you make something more interesting or mechanically intense, this indirectly affects the people who previously got clicked twice and was ready to leave or could previously just heal off the damage on their own. Everyone BUT medical players have a vested interest in keeping medical as braindead as possible which bleeds into why the system needs to be "wiki friendly" (in their eyes).

Consequently, a good/bad medical doctor is a determining factor in your experience as the patient. You staying in medical for a few seconds vs 5+minutes is pretty noticeable.
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:15 pm #497227

Super Aggro Crag wrote:"doctor is boring, they don't have enough to do, so I'm making them incapable of doing what they can do now, so i can justify merging them with chemist so more people will make medicine, even though the players who specifically role chemist get bored of making medicine and start making chlorine trifluoride grenades after making 5 synthflesh patches"



Chemists getting bored and making incendiary grenades is yet another reason to merge the two roles as it expands the chemist role with applying what they have created (they can do that now, but chemists are kinda expected to stay in chemistry). Working to make medicine and then getting the chance the apply it is a satisfying workflow.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:42 pm #497228

"If we put more people into the chem lab then chemists will suddenly want to do something they can already do"

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:36 pm #497243

cedarbridge wrote:"If we put more people into the chem lab then chemists will suddenly want to do something they can already do"


Yes, because they aren't expected to stay in chemistry all round and can internally rotate tasks?

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby oranges » Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:42 pm #497272

Crag has been put on post approval
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:22 pm #497278

Why?
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby oranges » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:17 pm #497308

Because you're being needlessly rude
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Recurracy » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:25 am #497314

I find the biggest challenge a doc, and thus the cmo, faces is the ability to fix everyone who needs aid as soon as possible. During rounds like wizard or warops, that's often quite hard and incredibly chaotic, but that's what I find reward in, to actually fix people despite these odds. I find it silly to compare MD with Roboticists, even more so when you consider techwebs.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:48 am #497317

oranges wrote:Because you're being needlessly rude

Ok, I'll settle down.
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:23 pm #498138

At least make some more surgery available roundstart. Especially dissection would give at least something to do.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:20 pm #498151

Surgery is fun and educational

Just give us two sets of surgical tools incase some cunt steals em
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:55 pm #498160

Super Aggro Crag wrote:Surgery is fun and educational

Just give us two sets of surgical tools incase some cunt steals em

Medical has a lathe

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:30 pm #498174

cedarbridge wrote:
Super Aggro Crag wrote:Surgery is fun and educational

Just give us two sets of surgical tools incase some cunt steals em

Medical has a lathe

yeah and conceivably every department on the station could make their own clone lab doesn't mean its not nice to have one in medbay at round start
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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby paradox97 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 1:59 am #498241

I used to play CMO all the time before switching to security... I agree that it's pretty boring except for surgery. I've suggested this before and been ignored but I'll suggest it again.. why don't we make diagnosis a bit more complicated? How about we nerf the health scanner and instead replace it with:
1.) Actually taking a patient history, so asking them if they got burned or hit or etc... if they can answer this is easiest
2.) Blood Tests, biopsies, cultures, imaging (x-rays etc)
3.) Physical Exams

Don't mess with the importance of chemistry, instead consider ways to make diagnosis more of a challenge. Some of the things I mentioned (e.g. blood tests) wouldn't even need the person in medbay the whole time, so they could theoretically get back to the job while the tests are being run.

Physicals could consist of series of various maneuvers and tools. The ebb and flow of a physical and which tests are most important to check for a given presentation would be things an experienced doc would be more likely to know. This would be even more strategic if X-rays and the like cost resources to preform. Just my thoughts.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:25 pm #498307

paradox97 wrote:Don't mess with the importance of chemistry,


Why? What makes the separation of medicine creation and distribution worth having?

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby cedarbridge » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:21 pm #498315

CPTANT wrote:
paradox97 wrote:Don't mess with the importance of chemistry,


Why? What makes the separation of medicine creation and distribution worth having?

Probably the same thing that makes the separation of food creation and food consumption worth having. I'm starving but the chef could be a psychopath that poisoned the food. Or somebody else might have if the chef isn't making food to order and is just mass producing bread. Maybe the chemist is competent and is making what he says he's made and put into the chem fridge. Or maybe he's a lunatic and made a bunch of lexorin patches named "synthflesh 10u." You don't know but you have to depend on the other player doing the right thing. Its that "paranoia" thing that people like to bring up selectively.


I know you don't get it and probably won't, but there's value inherent to having players within a department depend on different subjobs in those departments. We allow a bit of breathing space for those subjobs with access restrictions which can be bypassed with consent or by the head of that department. If you want to play chemist, play chemist. Stop trying to make medbay into 12 chemists.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby paradox97 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:41 am #498432

cedarbridge wrote: there's value inherent to having players within a department depend on different subjobs in those departments. We allow a bit of breathing space for those subjobs with access restrictions which can be bypassed with consent or by the head of that department. If you want to play chemist, play chemist. Stop trying to make medbay into 12 chemists.

This.
I just want to make doctor more of interesting sub-job, because it really isn't an interesting one at all. Hence my suggestions.

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Re: Doctor is a shit job

Postby CPTANT » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:32 pm #498650


Why? What makes the separation of medicine creation and distribution worth having?

Probably the same thing that makes the separation of food creation and food consumption worth having. I'm starving but the chef could be a psychopath that poisoned the food. Or somebody else might have if the chef isn't making food to order and is just mass producing bread. Maybe the chemist is competent and is making what he says he's made and put into the chem fridge. Or maybe he's a lunatic and made a bunch of lexorin patches named "synthflesh 10u." You don't know but you have to depend on the other player doing the right thing. Its that "paranoia" thing that people like to bring up selectively.



This doesn't change at all from merging the two, you can still mislabel stuff in the chem fridge and have people die from it whether the jobs are merged or not. In fact it becomes easier, because poisoned medicines no longer point to 1 or 2 people but to a larger group, which gives plausible deniability.


I know you don't get it and probably won't, but there's value inherent to having players within a department depend on different subjobs in those departments. We allow a bit of breathing space for those subjobs with access restrictions which can be bypassed with consent or by the head of that department. If you want to play chemist, play chemist. Stop trying to make medbay into 12 chemists.


Different subjobs works when both have actually distinct tasks, not when they are completely fishing in the same pond. Chemists do the doctors job for them.

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