[StickyMayhem] Maxoesss - one day ban

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Maxoess
 
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:26 pm
Byond Username: Maxoesss

[StickyMayhem] Maxoesss - one day ban

Postby Maxoess » Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:33 pm #497379

Byond account and character name: Maxoesss - Holden Makok

Banning admin: Stickymayhem

Ban type (What are you banned from?): Server

Ban reason and length: You have been banned by Stickymayhem from the server.

Reason: Self-Antagged as a roboticist, trying to call the shuttle on a marathon round. When the Captain came back to take them down, killed him.
This ban is temporary, it will be removed in 1440 minutes. The round ID is 110267.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 15:15 cest

Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Eventhall I believe

Your side of the story: Station was in a pretty shitty state, round already went for 2 hours and myself and others wanted to call shuttle. I got in my durand, got to bridge, called shuttle. Captain then went full panic mode and called for people to lynch me and shot at me. I shot back, he ran and I fucked off back to robotics. Appearantly he followed me with the warden and they both tried to kill me, in return I killed them. Subsequently I got a rude admin PM and ban because I was told that if the captain wants to kill me I should allow it. I'll post logs below

Why you think you should be unbanned: I just want some clarity on this, it seems silly. Especially since rules seem to state ''If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator.''



-- Administrator private message --

Admin PM from-Stickymayhem: Why did you kill the Captain

Click on the administrator's name to reply.



PM to-Admins: Because he was trying to kill me, did he seriously ahelp that shit?



-- Administrator private message --

Admin PM from-Stickymayhem: You're an idiot. See you in a day.

Click on the administrator's name to reply.


PM to-Admins: For what. Explain instead of being rude


PM to-Admins: He shot me and tried to kill me, what I'm supposed to not respond?



-- Administrator private message --

Admin PM from-Stickymayhem: You can't self antag just because you have a durand. Why do you think he was shooting at you?

Click on the administrator's name to reply.



PM to-Admins: He started with the violence, I called shuttle, then called for lynching me and shot me. What the fuck do you expect


*Payday processed, account now holds $1700.*

-- Administrator private message --

Admin PM from-Stickymayhem: So you, a random roboticist, went against the Captain to call the shuttle on a marathon round, then killed him when he came back to stop you.


-- Administrator private message --

Admin PM from-Stickymayhem: am I missing something else?

Click on the administrator's name to reply.

[

PM to-Admins: More people wanted to shuttle, but that's hardly self-antagging, it's an IC matter. He chased me through the station to kill me. What I'm supposed to just die at that point?



Admin PM from-Stickymayhem: There is pretty much no reason to kill the Captain as a non-antag unless the entire crew is actively rebelling against him and he's clearly ruining everything.

That's not the case here, so as I said, see you in a day.

Click on the administrator's name to reply.


PM to-Admins: He got away and I went back to science, he made it all the way here to shoot and kill me. How am I wrong for defending myself in that situation.



PM to-Admins: If some one tries to actively chase and murder you that's valid as fuck. Explain to me what I should've done then, die?



-- Administrator private message --

Admin PM from-Stickymayhem: Yes actually. IF you've reached the point where your choice is kill the captain or die, you pick die. One ruins a round and one nets you a ban. Sometimes self-defence isn't a good enough reason.

Click on the administrator's name to reply.



You have been banned by Stickymayhem from the server.
Reason: Self-Antagged as a roboticist, trying to call the shuttle on a marathon round. When the Captain came back to take them down, killed him.
This ban is temporary, it will be removed in 1440 minutes. The round ID is 110267.
To appeal this ban go to viewforum.php?f=7



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Stickymayhem
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:13 pm
Byond Username: Stickymayhem

Re: [StickyMayhem] Maxoesss - one day ban

Postby Stickymayhem » Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:50 pm #497421

Escalation policy does not apply in the same way to security/captain/real authorities on the station.

You doing a crime and then being targetted for it is not being wronged, nor is it them instigating an escalating conflict. You should avoid capture, use non-lethal methods or give up. You cannot escalate it back to them or any greytider could wipe out security from the starting point of a simple theft.

You outright killed the captain because he tried to take your toys away for extremely reasonable concerns. Thus the dayban.

EDIT: Frankly it should be a two day ban for taking down the warden as well, but lucky for you they didnt ahelp.
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Maxoess
 
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:26 pm
Byond Username: Maxoesss

Re: [StickyMayhem] Maxoesss - one day ban

Postby Maxoess » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:28 pm #497423

Had I, after calling the shuttle and then being shot, chased the captain around the station I would understand this. But that isn't the case. I avoided escalation initially by leaving back to science.

He made the choice to come there and attempt to murder me, he had already stated on comms that he wanted people to lynch me. I had no non-lethal methods (Durand was kitted with lethals since there were reports of xenos on-board). It seems a bit absurd to say that people should have no self-preservation and simply roll over and die if their would-be killer is security or a head of staff.
How is energy/ion blasting some one while calling for their blood ''taking their toys away'', it's attempted murder.

I'd like the opinion of other staff on this, I don't care about the one-day ban, but if this ruling is just it seems to open the door to alot of silly situations.

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Not-Dorsidarf
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 4:14 pm
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Byond Username: Dorsidwarf

Re: [StickyMayhem] Maxoesss - one day ban

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:13 pm #497435

I'd just like to drop in and say that if the captain was calling for him to be lynched/killed, especially for something which isnt a capital crime (B&E on the bridge), then that's considered lethal escalation just as if the captain was shooting lasers at him himself.

Also the captain isn't sec and the "dont kill sec for trying to rightfully arrest you" clause doesnt apply to him any more than it would a HoP or CMO.
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Stickymayhem
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Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:13 pm
Byond Username: Stickymayhem

Re: [StickyMayhem] Maxoesss - one day ban

Postby Stickymayhem » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:15 pm #497436

What would you expect a non-lethal response to a rogue roboticist in an exosuit to be other than an ion rifle?
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Stickymayhem
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Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:13 pm
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Re: [StickyMayhem] Maxoesss - one day ban

Postby Stickymayhem » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:16 pm #497437

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:I'd just like to drop in and say that if the captain was calling for him to be lynched/killed, especially for something which isnt a capital crime (B&E on the bridge), then that's considered lethal escalation just as if the captain was shooting lasers at him himself.

Also the captain isn't sec and the "dont kill sec for trying to rightfully arrest you" clause doesnt apply to him any more than it would a HoP or CMO.


That rule absolutely applies to the Captain. The justification for this rule for security is that they are mindshield at roundstart and can't be antagonists, and it is therefore unreasonable to kill them short of extreme circumstances like them actually griefing or an actual mutiny.

The Captain starts mindshielded and is afforded the same protections as security. Otherwise every execution could be interpreted as escalation.
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Maxoess
 
Joined: Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:26 pm
Byond Username: Maxoesss

Re: [StickyMayhem] Maxoesss - one day ban

Postby Maxoess » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:19 pm #497439

Stickymayhem wrote:What would you expect a non-lethal response to a rogue roboticist in an exosuit to be other than an ion rifle?


You're picking specific things and ignoring other facts. Warden had an Ion rifle, yet the captain had an energy gun which he fired at me as well. Ion shreds the mech, but that doesn't leave the energy gun and the Captain who literally called for my death on comms out of the picture. I just find it silly that lynching some one for calling the shuttle is appearantly perfectly normal, but in return defending your own life is absurd.

Like I said, I'd appreciate it if other staff members could voice their opinion regarding this situation instead of a back and forth between us that is just a repetition of our in-game conversation.

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Yakumo_Chen
 
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:08 pm
Byond Username: Yakumo Chen

Re: [StickyMayhem] Maxoesss - one day ban

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:30 am #497567

Exosuits such as Durands and Gygaxes, by their nature, are unstunnable and lethal weapons, and thus call for escalation to lethal force by security. Given you were in a combat mech and refused to surrender, you are automatically open to having lethal weaponry shot at you until at least until such point you are able to be detained more reasonably (et al, the mech has been destroyed). Having the possession of a lethal weapon by choice and forcing security to use lethals against you does not entitle you the ability to use lethal force in return.

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Hulkamania
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Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:42 pm
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Re: [StickyMayhem] Maxoesss - one day ban

Postby Hulkamania » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:15 am #498819

Sorry this one took so long, as is the nature of day bans you're often appealing the note rather than the ban itself.

We've elected to overturn this ban. After digging through the logs, I've come across a few things here.

First of which, the Captain did not ask the roboticist to stand down, to end their behavior, or anything of that nature. The first thing the Captain said after the recall was "HOSTILE DURAND IN BRIDGE!" Immediately after saying this, the captain open fired with a tommy gun at the mech. The mech pilot then tried to defend themselves, and get away from the situation by leaving the area, but the Captain pursued, calling a hunt for the mech. The Captain received backup and immediately they all ganged up on the roboticist, causing him to again fight in self defense.

Yes, as Yakumo pointed out there is little you can do to stop a mech outside shooting them down. However, in this instance there was no conversation, no deliberation other than immediately proclaiming the pilot to be hostile because he recalled the shuttle.

This really is an IC issue as far as I and the other headmins are concerned, and on those grounds the note is going to be removed.


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