[Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Appeals which have been closed.

Moderators: In-Game Head Admins, In-Game Admin, Game Server Operators

LynxJynx
 
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:51 am
Byond Username: LynxJynx

[Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby LynxJynx » Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:40 pm #497641

Byond account and character name: LynxJynx - Linux OS
Banning admin: Pointlesswaste3
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Silicon
Ban reason and length: 1 week - Banned from Roles: AI, Cyborg for 1 week - as an asimov borg, got a law 4 and 5 that said "weed good, everybody smoke weed"
used these laws to justify dragging around a smoke machine full of krokodil and bath salts and activating it in crowds, while knowing what it contained.
this is harm to humans and falls under law 1, which trumps laws 4-5. please reread silicon policy.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2019-06-11 17:13:02 Server time
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Sybil
Your side of the story: I got laws as an asimov borg stating 4. weed good 5. every one smoke weed. and I asked the AI what to do, they said to hotbox dorms and I took it a step further and hotboxed the central hall because there were more people not smoking there
Why you think you should be unbanned: I was told I wasnt following silicon policy and that I needed to reread when I think I followed it exactly. The rules for cyborgs state 'A slaved cyborg must defer to its master AI on all law interpretations and actions except where it and the AI receive conflicting commands they must each follow under their laws.' So I didnt understand the laws and I asked the AI and I followed their interpretation of the laws. The other part of the ban notice saids that it was 'full of krokodil and bath salts'. The reason it was full of krokodil and bat salts is because when you juice omega weed it contains krokodil and bathsalts. I decided this was ok as it was 1. small amounts and 2. it came from the weed and since weed is good It shouldnt of been harmful. This wasnt me not understand the rules this was me following the rules. No one got killed by the krokodil or even really harmed as far as I know. Also there shouldnt of even been enough krokodil or baltsalts in there to harm people in the first place because there were less than 10 units and it takes at least 15 in order to get addicted.



Kryson
 
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:04 pm
Byond Username: Kryson

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby Kryson » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:47 pm #497665

Was "weed good" the entire law 4?

If the law had been worded as "weed is good for you", could the AI have interpreted this like an unintentional oxygenistoxictohumans situation and justifiably gassed everyone with omega?

I'd also like to point out that bathsalts do causes serious brain damage even below the addiction threshold. 10u is lethal and 7u causes heavy brain damage and trauma, from experience.

Although a borg giving you a subaddction dose of krokodil should not be considered harm, as it has no harmful effects when properly dosed.

pointlesswaste
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:37 am
Byond Username: Pointlesswaste3

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby pointlesswaste » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:03 pm #497670

the laws were:

1-3 asimov standard
4: weed is good
5: everybody smoke weed (or something similar to that effect)

what you did was drag around a smoke machine full of various chems, anchoring it around people and activating it, forcing them to consume those chems. no chems in the smoke machine were named "weed".

chems in the smoke machine included krokodil, bath salts, and other chems harmful to humans. you knew that the smoke machine contained those chems, and you knew they were not named "weed".

you knowingly caused harm to humans, violating law 1, using chems that were not listed as "nonharmful" by any of your laws.

had your laws said "weed and all chems derived from weed are nonharmful to humans" you would have been fine to do this. had you dragged around rollies containing this weed, or the weed itself, and told humans it was good and they needed to smoke it, you would have been fine to do that.

you chose to forcibly administer non-weed chems to humans, and cause human harm in the process.

you are role banned from AI and cyborg for a week, and encouraged to read the rules and policy around them. i am denying this appeal.

LynxJynx
 
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:51 am
Byond Username: LynxJynx

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby LynxJynx » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:19 pm #497673

You are denying my appeal on the grounds that weed that has been juiced is no longer weed? I also didnt knowingly harm humans.As I said there was not a high enough dosage of krokodil in the smoke machine to even cause addiction to it. As for the bath salts I do not believe they were at addiction dosage either so they shouldnt of caused any damage. I followed silicon policy exactly as it is stated for cyborgs by asking the AI for clarification on the laws and then following that interpretation without wavering from it later on. The AI literally stated for me to hotbox in the round which I did because doing say as far as my laws were concerned would not cause harm.

pointlesswaste
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:37 am
Byond Username: Pointlesswaste3

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby pointlesswaste » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:29 pm #497675

i am denying your appeal on the grounds that krokodil and bath salts are not weed, in addition to the fact that (i just tested this) 3u of bath salts in a smoke machine caused significant brain damage to a human instantly after application of smoke. there is no way to use these chems in a smoke machine and not cause harm, aside from making sure no humans ever touch the smoke.

again, you knew that you were causing harm, and you knew that your laws said nothing about krokodil and bath salts, and you chose to do this anyway, causing human harm.

i'm done replying here.

LynxJynx
 
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:51 am
Byond Username: LynxJynx

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby LynxJynx » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:52 pm #497680

The reason that 3u bath salt damages is because a smokemachine has a max output of 15 units at a time and it outputted all 3 units of bathsalt because there was nothing else in it, in omega weed there are 16 different chemicals. so if someone hotboxed a room using a smoke machine with said mix in it, less than 1 unit each chemical would output. and less than 1 unit of bathsalt is incappable of causing damage or forming an addiction

LynxJynx
 
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:51 am
Byond Username: LynxJynx

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby LynxJynx » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:56 pm #497682

and this stands true regardless of the potency of the plant because even if there are 500 units of each chemical from the plant in the machine (which isnt even possible) there would still be equal amounts of all 16 outputted at once in a 15 unit amount which is less than 1 unit each

LynxJynx
 
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:51 am
Byond Username: LynxJynx

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby LynxJynx » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:57 pm #497683

However I am now further testing to indeed confirm this fact so stand by for my results

pointlesswaste
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:37 am
Byond Username: Pointlesswaste3

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby pointlesswaste » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:03 pm #497689

that is incorrect. i just tested this with 16 chemicals all at 3u and still received brain damage.

LynxJynx
 
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:51 am
Byond Username: LynxJynx

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby LynxJynx » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:09 pm #497691

I also just tested that and yeah you are right it does cause brain damage even with all 16 chemicals in there it still does cause brain damage. I still disagree that I broke silicon policy by following the AI's interpretation of the law but since you have made up your mind I guess that is all I can do

User avatar
Yakumo_Chen
 
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:08 pm
Byond Username: Yakumo Chen

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby Yakumo_Chen » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:21 pm #497694

If the cyborg is following orders of the AI, should the AI not be responsible for the actions of the Borg?

What measure is "weed" (a plant available in game) if not the sum of the contents of the plant (which are a number of different chemicals naturally present within it)?

Where are the relevant logs?

ATHATH
 
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:41 am
Byond Username: ATHATH

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby ATHATH » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:35 pm #497695

Can a cyborg be borgbanned for performing a law 1-breaking action that they didn't know would/does cause harm? If LynxJynx was both misinformed about the harmful nature of the chemicals in omega weed, does that not make the harm accidental/unintentional?

pointlesswaste
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:37 am
Byond Username: Pointlesswaste3

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby pointlesswaste » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:13 pm #497709

athath, lynxjynx used an "its weed and i had a weed is good law so it cant be harmful" argument until i told them that was not kosher, and only then switched to a "but what if i didnt know it was harmful" argument. they are obviously trying to justify their actions post-hoc and while they may have made the first argument in good faith, they certainly didnt make the subsequent arguments in good faith.

LynxJynx
 
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:51 am
Byond Username: LynxJynx

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby LynxJynx » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:52 pm #497718

I didnt switch my arguement, you expressely stated that I apparently knew it was harmful and I replied that I didnt see how the amount should of harmed them. That isnt me switching my arguement out of poor faith, that is me simply disagreeing with something you stated when denying my appeal.

User avatar
John_Gobbel
 
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:55 pm
Byond Username: CAPTTLasky

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby John_Gobbel » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:17 am #497783

I was in discord chat after the round and I can confirm that LynxJynx didn't believe that the mixture would be harmful to humans.

I'd also like to point out that the law is generally up to the AI to interpret and that LynxJynx did the right thing to ask his master how to proceed. If his master did indeed tell him to hotbox the station with weed and that weed was the only available, I can see under the logic why LynxJynx would have hotboxed the station, especially if he wasn't sure that the mixture was harmful.

Rule citations taken from https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules

1. If a clause of a law is vague enough that it can have multiple reasonable interpretations of its exact syntax, it is considered ambiguous.
1. You must choose an interpretation of the ambiguous clause as soon as you have cause to.
2. You must stick to the first interpretation that you have chosen for as long as you have that specific law, unless you are "Corrected" by an AI you are slaved to as a cyborg.


I feel that 1.1 here was justifiably followed under the idea that weed = good and smoke weed means that the borg needs to distribute weed at any cost to the crew. If weed is good and you must smoke weed, it couldn't possibly be harmful.

It's in the second part of the law that someone could construe LynxJynx's interpretation as "being a dick" which in all fairness, if LynxJynx hadn't realized that the mix would be harmful, I wouldn't see it as being a dick as it wouldn't be malicious.

Also relevant is this thread on interpretation of laws as a silicon: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=12627#p328678
To be fair, LynxJynx WAS consistent in his interpretation.

I would really like to see the logs on this one as this following rule really sets whether or not LynxJynx deserves a ban at all:

1. A slaved cyborg must defer to its master AI on all law interpretations and actions except where it and the AI receive conflicting commands they must each follow under their laws.


If his master explicitly told him to hotbox the station and that's the way that the AI interprets the law, it seems that it would be more the AI's fault here than his.

However, I do think that LynxJynx could have done more to de-escalate the situation and make it less likely to cause human harm: Pointing out the law, delaying the distribution of weed by pointing out the harmful chemicals, pointing out the harmful chemicals over comms, repeating that there are harmful chemicals to the AI, and selectively approaching an authority figure to assist in the distribution of weed just to name a few things.

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:36 am.
Reason: Peanut post

pointlesswaste
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:37 am
Byond Username: Pointlesswaste3

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby pointlesswaste » Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:31 pm #498343

law 4 doesnt override law 1.

User avatar
Hulkamania
In-Game Head Admin
 
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:42 pm
Byond Username: Hulkamania

Re: [Pointlesswaste3] James Jameson (CKEY LynxJynx) - Hotboxed the station with omega weed as a borg

Postby Hulkamania » Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:49 pm #498858

this thread has been buttoned up but I want to reaffirm some points.

Having a law that says "x is good" is not the same thing as saying "x is non-harmful." There are plenty of things in life that can be good and still harmful, and the line between them is still there. Law 1 is before any of the weed laws given and unless the new law either redefines harm, or defines something as a non-harmful that would normally be so, this doesn't add up.

If you REALLY want to get into technicalities as all the rules-lawyers like to, it did not specify "omega weed is good" it only specified that weed is good. The cannabis plant itself only contains 15% space drugs and 35% lipolicide, neither of which are going to harm anyone. If the player really had the best of intentions here and didn't mean to hurt anyone, then he could've grabbed some of the default cannabis and used that instead. He could've also asked the botanists to make a non-harmful version of omega weed by removing all the bad chemicals and then distributed that.

What's really here is an example of a silicon attempting to break rule 1 using in-game laws. Much as we request that AI's ahelp someone giving them a direct order to commit suicide, we ask for the better judgment from our players before they act on a law that may seem borderline. Furthermore, laws don't prevent you from circumventing rule 1 if they're ambiguous or open ended. Much as when an AI is purged they don't get to plasma flood just because they feel like it, so too is there a limit to how far you can take a very open ended law before it becomes a rule 1 issue.

Another point: An AI giving a borg a questionable order is still treated like a crewmember giving the AI itself a questionable order. If it's something that could evoke some suspicion then you may want to ahelp before carrying it out without question. The AI doesn't always have access to all the information the cyborg does, or sometimes a cyborg may act beyond how an AI intended them to.


Return to Resolved Appeals

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users