[Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

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[Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Istoprocent1 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:43 pm #512733

BYOND account: Istoprocent
Character name: Krokodil
Type: Note
Note length: Permanent
Note reason: A confirmed ling escaped due to the mime helping them. A doctor and the CMO tried to stop Istoprocent, an officer, from gibbing the mime over this. The doctor was put in perma by Istoprocent as well. I consider this excessive, a timed sentence would have been more than sufficient. Not everyone opposing you is an antag or should be treated as such.
Time ban was placed: 2019-09-05 18:41:26 | Terry | Booktower
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 117894
Your side of the story:

I was playing a Security Officer. While patrolling the maintenance I came across Nitrogen IV (Unit2E). We have a quick exchange of dialogue and intents, where he performs minor magics A tentacle grabs you and throws you towards Nitrogen IV! and A grotesque blade forms around Nitrogen IV's arm!. Followed by Krokodil hisses, " I think you fucked up friend " and Nitrogen IV stammers, " Yeah-h, I ex-xp-p-pec-c-ct-te t-th-h-hat-t-t-t t-to w-wor-rk-k-k b-b-bet-t-tt-ter-r " . Nitrogen IV being a reasonably cool fellow agrees to help me out testing few things on him before his untimely demise or even potential release should he fully cooperate. We head to the medbay with him in cuffs and having his armblade and tentacle out, where a tider steals my family heirloom beret by Unknown throws the head of personnel's cap. You're hit by the head of personnel's cap!. Not a big deal although it is a round lasting debuff.

In the medbay DIO (the Mime) decide that the game is too boring for him and it would be nice to spice things up by griefing the security by Dio has pulled Nitrogen IV from Krokodil's grip. Dio grabs Nitrogen IV passively!, thus pulling away the guy with an armblade out. At this point it is clear that for whatever reason the mime decided to do that, they were clearly acting as an antag and thus eligible to be treated as an antag.

Rule 1: We're all here to have a good time, supposedly. Going out of your way to seriously negatively impact or end the round for someone with little IC justification is against the rules. Legitimate conflicts where people get upset do happen however, as detailed in the escalation section of the rules.

Rule 4: Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

Rule 4 (Security Policy) The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4. Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution as poor behaviour on the part of security will not be tolerated.

The round goes on and I finally catch DIO in the maintenance. I beat him to crit as I had no cuffs and carry him to the brig. As I reach the brig Ryan Creamer (CMO) and Mathias Corvin (MD) show up, coming into the brig. They try to run next to me and I flee to the Security Gear Room. I tell them bluntly to Krokodil hisses, " Fuck off cmo " as they are not supposed to interfiere with the criminals being brigged. I was forced to use disabler to show that I mean it and eventually had to throw a flashbang as they persisted "trying to help a guy who helped a confirmed changeling to escape". They were aggressive and got AI involved in opening the doors leading to a missed shove attempt Mathias Corvin shoves Dio! , successful shove attempt Mathias Corvin shoves Krokodil, knocking them down! and You hug Mathias Corvin to make him feel better! Mathias Corvin grabs Dio passively! (note that I was not even on an aggressive intent, even while they were storming the brig). After that went down it lead to Ryan Creamer fires the syringe gun! You're hit by a syringe in the left arm! . I go down, CMO cuffs me, leaves me to brig and leaves with the mime and Mathias. CMO and Mathias stick together and every time I legitimately try to brig them the CMO starts shooting syringes at me. Eventually I catch Mathias and permabrig him for helping the mime escape and generally acting like an antag. As expected Mathias starts threatening me with OOC punishment for stopping him IC by saying things like Mathias Corvin says, " Reporting to gods ", Mathias Corvin says, " Fuck you ", Krokodil hisses, " Go for it. " and Mathias Corvin says, " Ghosted ". Shortly after Booktower hits me up, tells me that I have a bad reputation and I get noted.

They also:

Rule 4 (Security Policy) The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4. Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution as poor behaviour on the part of security will not be tolerated.

Do note that I arrested Mathias using non-lethal methods, harmbatoned few times in the perma for mouthing off and chose the least punishing sentence for their crime, even though they were eligible for execution under the server rules.

Why you think you should be unbanned: The note is unjustified as I did not step over any boundaries as a player and not appealing it may lead to harsher punishments in the future.
References of good conduct: My note history and anybody who is willing to vouch for me.



PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:04 pm.
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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby BeeSting12 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:03 pm #512737

Ahelp logs between Booktower and Matthias Corvin/Tarchonvaagh
Spoiler:
[2019-09-05 18:22:53.780] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #7: Tarchonvaagh/(Mathias Corvin): hey krok perma'd me because i helped a mime, and said that he'd to harm if the ai wont open a door then i ghosted, please tell me what i did wrong or tell him THAT HE IS A POWERTRIPPING ASSHOLE. thank you
[2019-09-05 18:23:28.213] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Booktower/(Tidus Tidey)->Tarchonvaagh/(Mathias Corvin): Could oyu give me the full story?
[2019-09-05 18:28:21.021] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Tarchonvaagh/(Mathias Corvin)->Booktower/(Tidus Tidey): A few minutes ago I was checking the crew manifest and saw that the mime is dead and with sensors on. The pinpointer lead me to brig, so i went there. the CMO was there too and Krokodil, holding the mime's lifeless corpse. Then we asked the AI to open the door, it did it, then Krok stunned and flashbanged us, at least tried to. Then we got to the perma doors, i shoved him, he had his baton in hand. I only took the mime's corpse and tried to revive him with a defib I had, but he was too damaged. Then the CMO shot krok up with something and i left. I got into medbay, a borg tended wounds, mime got revived then Krok banged in, stunned me and took mime. A few moments later I started healing the CE, then he stunned me and worldessly perma'd me. At the perma doors he said into his headset that he is permaing me for "helping a traitor". Then he said that he'd harm me more if the AI won't let him in, AI did let him in then I ghosted and ahelped.
[2019-09-05 18:41:00.787] ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #7: Tarchonvaagh/(Mathias Corvin): HELLO FREN

Lines omitted in between for irrelevance. Logs are sourced from https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/terry/ ... 4/game.log .


Ahelp logs between Booktower and Istoprocent
Spoiler:
[2019-09-05 18:24:28.640] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Booktower/(Tidus Tidey)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil): Hey, what happened between you and Mathias Corvin, the person you perma'd?
[2019-09-05 18:27:20.481] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->Booktower/(Tidus Tidey): Long story short. I caught Neutron XI or whoever that used Tentacles on me and grew an Armblade - a confirmed ling. I was taking him to the medbay to test out a few things on a ling, when mime (Dio) came and took a confirmed changeling with tentacles and armblade from me, thus aiding and abetting. It took me awhile to chase down the mime and I caught him. Beat him to critical as I lacked cuffs and he was about to die anyway for helping a ling. CMO and Mathias randomly showed up to brig and took the mime away from me, while the CMO syringed me multiple times. They were aiding and abetting mime who was for all counts and purposes a confirmed criminal, thus they became criminals themselves and getting permad.
[2019-09-05 18:30:00.339] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Booktower/(Tidus Tidey)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil): Arresting the mime and giving him a TIMED sentence is fine unless you can confirm this was not just a misunderstanding
[2019-09-05 18:30:42.894] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->Booktower/(Tidus Tidey): Please read through the whole text. Mime was about to be shuttlegibbed, because he became valid by helping a ling that had an ARMBLADE out and TENTACLES.
[2019-09-05 18:31:08.965] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Booktower/(Tidus Tidey)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil): You can't antagonise everyone who disagrees with you
[2019-09-05 18:31:24.744] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Booktower/(Tidus Tidey)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil): I did read everything and got the story from their side too
[2019-09-05 18:31:46.128] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->Booktower/(Tidus Tidey): I don't antagonize people. This is a clear cut case. Mime helped a confirmed ling to escape and the helped the mime escape. I didnt kill them but they were going to get perma for doing so.
[2019-09-05 18:32:13.687] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil)->Booktower/(Tidus Tidey): For all intents and purposes they are being dicks and ruining the game for others for no reason by interfierring with the security.
[2019-09-05 18:32:58.575] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Booktower/(Tidus Tidey)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil): No, you're being shitsec.
[2019-09-05 18:33:14.013] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun)->Booktower/(Tidus Tidey): I am not, you can see it from my history.
[2019-09-05 18:33:28.730] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Booktower/(Tidus Tidey)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun): You shouldn't call on your history when you have a pretty bad reputation
[2019-09-05 18:34:07.571] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun)->Booktower/(Tidus Tidey): I thought people were judged by their history not by heresay. In this case its clear, they chose to be dicks and they were going to get what was coming.
[2019-09-05 18:34:54.572] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun)->Booktower/(Tidus Tidey): Context matters, people helping confirmed antags escape make them antags and valid to much more than perma imprisonment.
[2019-09-05 18:34:57.772] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Booktower/(Tidus Tidey)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun): Anyway, permanent round removal of the mime was harsh, but I'm not gonna go into that further, I understand your decisionmaking process behind that. But then letting it spiral out of control by removing Corvin as well is ridiculous. From a metagaming point of view it's very unlikely that they were antags as well.
[2019-09-05 18:35:12.744] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun)->Booktower/(Tidus Tidey): I did not permanently remove the mime. He was merely killed.
[2019-09-05 18:35:41.509] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun)->Booktower/(Tidus Tidey): There is nothing I can do, if multiple people group up to antagonize security.
[2019-09-05 18:36:22.054] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun)->Booktower/(Tidus Tidey): They had no reason to interfiere with the justice done to the mime. Security is expected to have some OOC protection and I never did anything wrong in this case.
[2019-09-05 18:37:12.127] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun)->Booktower/(Tidus Tidey): This is clearly an IC issue, but I assume that you need to meet some ban quotas or are just gruding that your friend got permad and are going to punish me for their errors.
[2019-09-05 18:37:14.881] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Booktower/(Tidus Tidey)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun): A timed sentence for the doctor would have been more than sufficient, perma was excessive.
[2019-09-05 18:37:28.856] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun)->Booktower/(Tidus Tidey): They helped an ANTAGONIST.
[2019-09-05 18:37:42.915] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Booktower/(Tidus Tidey)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun): I've discussed it in asay as well with one of the other admins currently online.
[2019-09-05 18:37:55.540] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun)->Booktower/(Tidus Tidey): They should have spoken or used IC means to figure out whats up not just start dragging people away and syringing me.
[2019-09-05 18:38:44.709] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Booktower/(Tidus Tidey)->Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun): Right, I'm going to leave a note for what I consider an excessive sentence. Good luck!
[2019-09-05 18:39:07.957] ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun)->Booktower/(Tidus Tidey): There was no escessive sentence, you are just being petty.
[2019-09-05 18:41:34.254] ADMINPRIVATE: Booktower/(Tidus Tidey) has created a note for Istoprocent: A confirmed ling escaped due to the mime helping them. A doctor and the CMO tried to stop Istoprocent, an officer, from gibbing the mime over this. The doctor was put in perma by Istoprocent as well. I consider this excessive, a timed sentence would have been more than sufficient. Not everyone opposing you is an antag or should be treated as such.
Lines omitted in between for irrelevance. Logs are sourced from https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/terry/ ... 4/game.log


From what I can tell, this note was applied with literally no knowledge of the rules whatsoever.
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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Booktower » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:49 pm #512741

Without getting into the complaint yet I'd like to mention that I do not know Tarchonvaagh. After Istoprocent complained in OOC that I was dealing with him and called Tarchonvaagh a metafriend or similiar of mine he ironically said "HELLO FREN". He said similiar things in the next round.

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:04 pm.
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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:33 pm #512749

Hey it is me the MD
-First things first; you were the one who helpen an antagonist. I am NOT saying that you need to validhunt every antag, but If you are this much stupid that-
-You dragged around a changeling with an armblade and tentacle out. I can hardly imagine a more dumb thing you couldve done in this situation. "Experimenting." If you want to learn things about lings, ask admins/coders. Or ask them to let you in the thunderdrome and try it there. This is the smaller problem. You got mad when someone pulled the ling (with a FUCKING armblade and tentacle out) out of your grip. It is not like tiders don't usually do these sort of things. He may not have known that the ling is not some poor admin event's child that shitsec arrested.
-Why didn't you start chasing the mime when the ling got lingnapped? Were you just standing in medbay lobby for a few minutes, maybe the mime brings back the cuffed man? You couldve easily pulled Nitro out of the mime's grip, if you really didn't stand around.
-Just for reference, I get mad too when someone steals my prisoner as sec. But I won't hunt down the perpetrator with lethals! Just set both of them to arrest and done! If the guy was a confirmed antag, as I said I'll chase them down. If it fails and I catch the kidnapper, I would just brig and scold him!
-Here comes my part. As the self-dedicated EMT, I was running around with a defib and a nedibelt full of goodies. I check my crew manifest and see that the mime is dead with sensors maxed. I set my pinpointer to him and I got to brig. I see an officer and the CMO arguing. The officer has the mime's corpse. I ask the CMO to open the door. But there is another one. I ask the AI to open. I get in, then get stunned immediately with said defib on my back. Then somehow we get to the perma doors, I shove Krokodil with his baton out, I LEAVE THE BATON ALONE, grab the body and immediately place my paddles on his chest. Since the CMO and me are medics, we can't let a man bleed out, and with the CMO having no effective stunning device, he shoots syringes at him. I still don't know what was in those syrs.
-I get the mime's corpse to medbay, a good borgo tends his wounds, and I revive him. (i might repeat things i said in the ahelp). Then Krok barges in, stuns me, steals the mime and I book the mime dead. After a few moments Krokodil comes back and takes me to brig, stunned and cuffed. After that, he puts me in a perma locker, strips me and puts me in perma, some harmbatoning and AI-intimidating later ((Common) Krokodil says, "AI OPEN OR I HARM HIM MORE), I am in a cell, stripped of my honor and clothes. Of course I ghost and ahelp. See the logs.
-Just to be clear, I only know the whole story now. I never actually heard what the mime did, except that he helped an antagonist, making him antagonist. At the roundend report the mime was of course innocent.
-rereading the whole thing again, i didnt stick to the CMO
-Also I buy antag rep from Booktower, since I am his metafriend the price was fifty percent cheaper
^for the dumber of you this is the thing we call "irony"
-also also i am writing this at midnight so any typos slash grammar issues are the effect of that
GODSPEED

EDIT: isto i have seen you being sec what the fuck was going on in your mind

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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Istoprocent1 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:12 pm #512758

Tarchonvaagh wrote:Hey it is me the MD
-First things first; you were the one who helpen an antagonist. I am NOT saying that you need to validhunt every antag, but If you are this much stupid that-
-You dragged around a changeling with an armblade and tentacle out. I can hardly imagine a more dumb thing you couldve done in this situation. "Experimenting." If you want to learn things about lings, ask admins/coders. Or ask them to let you in the thunderdrome and try it there. This is the smaller problem. You got mad when someone pulled the ling (with a FUCKING armblade and tentacle out) out of your grip. It is not like tiders don't usually do these sort of things. He may not have known that the ling is not some poor admin event's child that shitsec arrested.


This is wrong on so many levels. What do you mean by validhunt? I only went to the medbay to get a defib before heading to brig.

18:03:42 SAY Istoprocent/(Krokodil) "I think you fucked up friend" (131, 108, 2) Secondary Starboard Maintenance
18:04:00 SAY Istoprocent/(Krokodil) "I need to test few things" (113, 111, 2) Research Division
18:04:06 SAY Istoprocent/(Krokodil) "Might even let you go if you are a good boyh" (113, 111, 2) Research Division
18:04:19 SAY Istoprocent/(Krokodil) "Yo" (88, 98, 2) Medbay Central
18:04:20 EMOTE Istoprocent/(Krokodil) gasps! (88, 98, 2) Medbay Central
18:04:21 SAY Istoprocent/(Krokodil) "Need defib" (88, 98, 2) Medbay Central
18:04:45 SAY Istoprocent/(Krokodil) "I NEED A DEFIB!!" (88, 100, 2) Medbay Central
18:04:53 SAY Istoprocent/(Krokodil) "CMo" (79, 103, 2) Surgery
18:05:10 SAY Istoprocent/(Krokodil) "Mime is a ling" (98, 107, 2) Medbay Central

Note that I call out mime being a ling for helping another ling (at this point I don't know whether its a game mechanic like :g or mime just griefing), whether mime is actually ling or not doesn't really matter (as the mime has made himself an antag).

Tarchonvaagh wrote:-Why didn't you start chasing the mime when the ling got lingnapped? Were you just standing in medbay lobby for a few minutes, maybe the mime brings back the cuffed man? You couldve easily pulled Nitro out of the mime's grip, if you really didn't stand around.
-Just for reference, I get mad too when someone steals my prisoner as sec. But I won't hunt down the perpetrator with lethals! Just set both of them to arrest and done! If the guy was a confirmed antag, as I said I'll chase them down. If it fails and I catch the kidnapper, I would just brig and scold him!


Might have had something to do with me not being in top condition, mime lubing the floor and my family heirloom being stolen. You can see from the logs that I started chasing the mime immediately.

18:04:55 ATTACK Unit2E/(Nitrogen IV) has pulled from Istoprocent/(Krokodil) with Dio (NEWHP: 98.2) (77, 103, 2) Surgery
18:04:57 ATTACK Jaltsi/(Yates Meador) has threw and hit Istoprocent/(Krokodil) with the head of personnel's cap (NEWHP: 98.2) (79, 103, 2) Surgery
18:05:04 ATTACK Istoprocent/(Krokodil) has slipped on the [floor] (LUBE) (97, 104, 2) Medbay Central
18:05:05 ATTACK Istoprocent/(Krokodil) has slipped on the [floor] (LUBE) (97, 104, 2) Medbay Central


Tarchonvaagh wrote:-Here comes my part. As the self-dedicated EMT, I was running around with a defib and a nedibelt full of goodies. I check my crew manifest and see that the mime is dead with sensors maxed. I set my pinpointer to him and I got to brig. I see an officer and the CMO arguing. The officer has the mime's corpse. I ask the CMO to open the door. But there is another one. I ask the AI to open. I get in, then get stunned immediately with said defib on my back. Then somehow we get to the perma doors, I shove Krokodil with his baton out, I LEAVE THE BATON ALONE, grab the body and immediately place my paddles on his chest. Since the CMO and me are medics, we can't let a man bleed out, and with the CMO having no effective stunning device, he shoots syringes at him. I still don't know what was in those syrs.


Sounds about right, although, after the flashbang I tried juking around and head to the permabrig with the mime. You pushed me down, I batoned myself and Ryan shot me. It is clear that I was trying to avoid confrontation and to secure the mime.

18:11:27 ATTACK Istoprocent/(Krokodil) has thrown the flashbang (116, 166, 2) Brig
18:11:57 ATTACK Tarchonvaagh/(Mathias Corvin) has shoved Istoprocent/(Krokodil) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 95.2) (98, 178, 2) Brig
18:11:58 ATTACK Istoprocent/(Krokodil) has shaken Tarchonvaagh/(Mathias Corvin) (NEWHP: 100) (97, 178, 2) Brig
18:12:02 ATTACK Istoprocent/(Krokodil) has stunned Istoprocent/(Krokodil) (NEWHP: 95.2) (99, 174, 2) Brig
18:12:06 ATTACK VerifyVenuzY/(Ryan Creamer) has fired at Istoprocent/(Krokodil) with the syringe from Brig (NEWHP: 95.2) (98, 169, 2) Brig

Tarchonvaagh wrote:-I get the mime's corpse to medbay, a good borgo tends his wounds, and I revive him. (i might repeat things i said in the ahelp). Then Krok barges in, stuns me, steals the mime and I book the mime dead. After a few moments Krokodil comes back and takes me to brig, stunned and cuffed. After that, he puts me in a perma locker, strips me and puts me in perma, some harmbatoning and AI-intimidating later ((Common) Krokodil says, "AI OPEN OR I HARM HIM MORE), I am in a cell, stripped of my honor and clothes. Of course I ghost and ahelp. See the logs.


Sounds about right. AI was bolting down perma cell doors and I had to give it an option to avoid human harm as the MD was not going to walk free from that encounter.

Tarchonvaagh wrote:-Just to be clear, I only know the whole story now. I never actually heard what the mime did, except that he helped an antagonist, making him antagonist. At the roundend report the mime was of course innocent.
-rereading the whole thing again, i didnt stick to the CMO
-Also I buy antag rep from Booktower, since I am his metafriend the price was fifty percent cheaper
^for the dumber of you this is the thing we call "irony"
-also also i am writing this at midnight so any typos slash grammar issues are the effect of that
GODSPEED

EDIT: isto i have seen you being sec what the fuck was going on in your mind


Being ignorant or feigning ignorance does not pardon you. If you chose to put yourself in a situation, where you did not know all the variables, you should have acted with caution and not instantly taking the stance against security based on "your knowledge of me being a shitsec".

Imagine clinging on me ironically saying:

18:39:48 OOC Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun) "Getting noted because Booktower's friend got permad for helping an antag." (128, 165, 2) Brig

Its past midnight here as well, so there is no excuse.

EDIT:

Tarchonvaagh wrote:After that, he puts me in a perma locker, strips me and puts me in perma, some harmbatoning and AI-intimidating later ((Common) Krokodil says, "AI OPEN OR I HARM HIM MORE), I am in a cell, stripped of my honor and clothes. Of course I ghost and ahelp. See the logs.


Why would you edit the things I said in (Common)?

18:21:13 SAY Istoprocent/(Krokodil) "AI open perma or he dies." (87, 181, 2) Prison Wing

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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:36 pm #512763

I don't care about you or this appeal anymore but I will correct you
-I didn't say that you validhunter you literally did the opposite
-didn't know that you went to a public place with a confirmed ling with disabilities
-intimidating the ai like this is against the rules
-I did not say that you are shitsec i literally said the opposite
-18:39:48 OOC Istoprocent/(Krokodil-kun) "Getting noted because Booktower's friend got permad for helping an antag." (128, 165, 2) Brig
why'd you say that after getting boinked
-I don't know why I added common I am half asleep leave me alone

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Istoprocent1
 
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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Istoprocent1 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:58 pm #512771

Tarchonvaagh wrote:I don't care about you or this appeal anymore


I hope you see the problem here. You were unhappy about a situation that happened in a game, where the average round length is 30-60 minutes. 2 hours later you don't ever care about it, yet you choosing to ahelp (a situation that you caused yourself) in order to get me in trouble has a chance to leave a permanent mark on me and affect my ability to play the game in the future.

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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:02 pm #512772

Istoprocent1 wrote:
Tarchonvaagh wrote:I don't care about you or this appeal anymore


I hope you see the problem here. You were unhappy about a situation that happened in a game, where the average round length is 30-60 minutes. 2 hours later you don't ever care about it, yet you choosing to ahelp (a situation that you caused yourself) in order to get me in trouble has a chance to leave a permanent mark on me and affect my ability to play the game in the future.


If you chose to be shitsec and act like this then yes I will do everything to get you to remember to not be shitsec ever again
Bye

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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby BeeSting12 » Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:39 pm #512777

Tarchonvaagh wrote:-intimidating the ai like this is against the rules

It's not against the rules to "hold hostages" to get the AI to do what you want. It is against the rules to threaten the AI with self harm to get it to do what you want.
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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Booktower » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:11 am #512779

So, the disagreement was over, you got the mime back, and then you decide to go out of your way to arrest the MD(what do you gain from arresting the MD at this point? He's certainly no threat to you anymore). So far so good.

And then you permanently removed from the round. A search and/or 5 minutes would have been fine, but perma is absolutely excessive, so I gave you a note. I'm open to rewording the note if you feel like we could describe the events that happened better.

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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Unit2E » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:14 am #512781

I'm going to go out and say I disagree with this note. I'm glad to see the mime didn't get in trouble in any OOC fashion for what they did, as I helped them out in maintenance before they helped me, which does make that IC in my eyes. That being said, throwing the mime in perma brig for helping an extremely confirmed changeling is obviously valid, and then throwing anyone who helps them into perma is valid as well.

From the sec officer's standpoint, they had no way of knowing why the mime was helping me / the changeling, just as little as they could know why the MD and CMO would later help the likely-dangerous-criminal-who-helped-changeling mime. The reasonable response is simply to perma brig them, or at the least, it is a valid response to have IC, and does not, in my opinion, warrant OOC response.

Lastly, I do want to say, having such an OOC response as "reporting to gods" when you're not getting your way while you're being validly perma brigged leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Mod edit: User was involved in the round as a player, thus not peanut posting

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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:21 am #512782

Booktower wrote:So, the disagreement was over, you got the mime back, and then you decide to go out of your way to arrest the MD(what do you gain from arresting the MD at this point? He's certainly no threat to you anymore). So far so good.

And then you permanently removed from the round. A search and/or 5 minutes would have been fine, but perma is absolutely excessive, so I gave you a note. I'm open to rewording the note if you feel like we could describe the events that happened better.


I never got the mime back to the brig. CMO and MD prevented me from taking the mime from the medbay after their initial attack. All that was left to do was to deal with the self-antags and I was lenient by choosing to permabrig instead of outright killing them.

Lets not start doing mental gymnastics here - permabrig nor killing are permanent removals. A permanent removal would be cremation. This has been discussed in the past.

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:04 pm.
Reason: Peanut posting

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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:38 am #512860

BeeSting12 wrote:
Tarchonvaagh wrote:-intimidating the ai like this is against the rules

It's not against the rules to "hold hostages" to get the AI to do what you want. It is against the rules to threaten the AI with self harm to get it to do what you want.

I was half asleep sorry

As I previously said I only know the whole story from this appeal. If I knew what the mime did, I wouldn't have been so aggressively trying to heal him.

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:04 pm.
Reason: Peanut posting

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:05 pm.
Reason: Response to deleted

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:04 pm.
Reason: Peanut posting

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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Arianya » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:07 pm #512909

"Character witnesses" are not peanut policy compliant, whether they are good or bad for the banned person or anyone else involved in the ban.

The peanut posting rule remains very simple: If you were not directly involved in the incident, or citing a rule or policy precedent, then you shouldn't post.
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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Istoprocent1 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:20 am #512910

Arianya wrote:"Character witnesses" are not peanut policy compliant, whether they are good or bad for the banned person or anyone else involved in the ban.

The peanut posting rule remains very simple: If you were not directly involved in the incident, or citing a rule or policy precedent, then you shouldn't post.


My only complaint was against TheMythicGhost who was posting in bad faith by claiming that my standard procedure is to go around and cremate people for no reason. The others posted as a part of good conduct part of the appeal.

@Booktower, you were quick to pass judgement, I do ask for you to take a few minutes out of your day and be as quick to fix the situation. I broke no rules and went out of my way to find the most lenient sentences for the parties involved. It is not fair to me for you to let this thing fester for days or weeks, even worse if you then try to justify a Rule 0 gut feeling over the Main Rules of the server. Aside from that you pointed out that I "had a reputation", which means that you came into the situation with a clear bias.

The only guy who was not happy with the IC outcome was the MD, who made a conscious decision to ahelp in order to get back at me for permabrigging him for a legitimate reason.

I don't need you to feign regret or anything, I just ask you to be fair, delete the note and in the future maybe let somebody else deal with my tickets as they tend to come from users that are either malicious, misinformed or just salty.

PS! What about the plan to shuttlegib the mime?! The mime was going to be shuttlegibbed, because with imperfect knowledge it was clear that in that round the mime had no other reason to help a clearly confirmed changeling with its armblade and tentacles out aside from being a changeling himself and communicating over :g (just pointing out that this is not the issue here). The others were not there to "prevent shuttlegibbing", but to "revive the mime" who reached brig in critical and died during the encounter with the medics, they then went above and beyond of just healing the mime by assaulting the security and taking the mime away from the brig, thus preventing sentencing of a dangerous criminal and opening themselves to be treated as antags. Whether they had any knowledge or not does not matter.

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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Stickymayhem » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:06 pm #513040

Booktower wrote:So, the disagreement was over, you got the mime back, and then you decide to go out of your way to arrest the MD(what do you gain from arresting the MD at this point? He's certainly no threat to you anymore). So far so good.

And then you permanently removed from the round. A search and/or 5 minutes would have been fine, but perma is absolutely excessive, so I gave you a note. I'm open to rewording the note if you feel like we could describe the events that happened better.


Are you familiar with the "act like an antag, get treated like an antag" rule?

It's absolutely not uncommon for a changeling to call out for help to other changelings to get themselves out of a bad situation, so someone randomly trying to prevent their capture is a massive red flag. Gibbing them at that point is a totally reasonable move because the only other explanation for their behaviour is OOC i.e. they're just being a cunt
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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Booktower » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:00 am #513154

Aside from that you pointed out that I "had a reputation", which means that you came into the situation with a clear bias.

That was in the ticket, since you called on your "clear history". I wanted to shut down that argument quickly with a harsh rebuttal. At the time I was only aware of someone on common radio calling you insane this round and a few bad things I heard during the round. Only now have I learnt more about you.

The only guy who was not happy with the IC outcome was the MD

The CMO literally called you insane, and the AI helped them escape your clutches, so just that is 3 people that were unhappy with it.

I broke no rules and went out of my way to find the most lenient sentences for the parties involved.
+
Are you fucking serious? "The most lenient sentence" is permabrig in your book? Please stop playing security. You're either insane or just twisting words in this appeal and I don't care to find out which it is.

The others were not there to "prevent shuttlegibbing", but to "revive the mime" who reached brig in critical and died during the encounter with the medics, they then went above and beyond of just healing the mime by assaulting the security and taking the mime away from the brig, thus preventing sentencing of a dangerous criminal and opening themselves to be treated as antags. Whether they had any knowledge or not does not matter.

Do you actually read this crap before posting it? Like you would have let them heal the mime. As said below it was obvious they were not antags IC, and the AI told you off on the CMO, which you seem to forget to mention conveniently.


Are you familiar with the "act like an antag, get treated like an antag" rule?

It's absolutely not uncommon for a changeling to call out for help to other changelings to get themselves out of a bad situation, so someone randomly trying to prevent their capture is a massive red flag. Gibbing them at that point is a totally reasonable move because the only other explanation for their behaviour is OOC i.e. they're just being a cunt

I am familiar and considered this, no ling powers were ever used by the CMO, the MD or the mime, additionally other lings had been taken down, this was clearly a regular disagreement. It was pretty obvious IC that they were not lings. While I understand the gibbing of the mime permabrigging the MD for merely opposing them was absolutely excessive, a timed sentence or even just a simple search would have been more than sufficient. To clarify, this is mostly based on rule 1.

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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Booktower » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:18 am #513157

I'm going to have to deny this appeal for the reasons stated above.

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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Istoprocent1 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:38 am #513159

Booktower wrote:That was in the ticket, since you called on your "clear history". I wanted to shut down that argument quickly with a harsh rebuttal. At the time I was only aware of someone on common radio calling you insane this round and a few bad things I heard during the round. Only now have I learnt more about you.


History is based on previous notes, not heresay, personal feelings/grudges.

Booktower wrote:The CMO literally called you insane, and the AI helped them escape your clutches, so just that is 3 people that were unhappy with it.


Irrelevant, the one who ahelped was the MD. I was unhappy with 4 people personally (assistant, mime, cmo and md), but I held my composure and played the game by the rules, even going out of my way to not kill the parties involved, even if they were completely valid by the rules.

Booktower wrote:Are you fucking serious? "The most lenient sentence" is permabrig in your book? Please stop playing security. You're either insane or just twisting words in this appeal and I don't care to find out which it is.


You might want to brush up on the actual rules of the server - https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules

This is a really unhealthy thing to say. If you don't care, why have you chosen to become an admin? I never said that permabrig is the most lenient sentence in my book. When dealing with valids, it is definitely more lenient than just killing them.

Booktower wrote:Do you actually read this crap before posting it? Like you would have let them heal the mime. As said below it was obvious they were not antags IC, and the AI told you off on the CMO, which you seem to forget to mention conveniently.


I did not forget anything and I do not know what knowledge other people have. You are trying to put the burden of 100% knowledge and accuracy on me. Things might be obvious to you in hindsight, but you were not playing the game.

Booktower wrote:I am familiar and considered this, no ling powers were ever used by the CMO, the MD or the mime, additionally other lings had been taken down, this was clearly a regular disagreement. It was pretty obvious IC that they were not lings. While I understand the gibbing of the mime permabrigging the MD for merely opposing them was absolutely excessive, a timed sentence or even just a simple search would have been more than sufficient. To clarify, this is mostly based on rule 1.


The MD was valid and permabrigging him was the least I could do.

@Headmins, I ask you to step in as this is beyond silly. This person is trying to apply their moon logic, while ignoring the rules of the server. It all boils down to them trying to defend their ego instead of admitting that the note was clearly unjustified and they were in the wrong.

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:52 pm.
Reason: Peanut policy/trying to start a policy discussion in ban appeals

PostThis post was deleted by Arianya on Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:53 pm.
Reason: stop haranguing ban appeals with your peanuts

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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby Krusvik » Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:12 pm #513274

About SS13
Space Station 13 is a paranoia-laden roleplaying game set against the backdrop of a nonsensical, metal death trap masquerading as a space station.

Read more here


4. Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

Precedent 4.1. Non-antagonists are allowed to assist antagonists given sufficient IC reasoning but assisting an antagonist doesn't mean you get to act like one. If in doubt, ask an admin if a particular action is okay. Depending on the level of assistance, sufficient IC reasoning could be simply treating everyone who goes into medbay regardless of them being a murderer or not, all the way to being threatened under pain of death by an antagonist to do something.

Security Precedent 3. The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4...


I don't believe this player was acting out of line with server/community policy, these things defined by the rules clearly happened with multiple people confirming them, pushing the issue seems to be becoming of admin preference vs. written rule.

In the instance of admin vs. player preference, I further believe Istoprocent is fully in his right of disputing this note and requesting a higher authority to represent him in the appeal.

Spoiler:
Bonus round: I played a round as HoS earlier, I was jumped by revs because I saw an officer being downed brutally in medbay and didn't have time to discern who was the enemy and who wasn't. I tried to flash bang the room, and open with disablers because of the crowding. Two people I had no knowledge of being antagonists killed me, and they were not the ones beating the officer. I would have been valid to open fire with lethals on all of medbay post-round. Here he's given the same information of someone dragging away an objective and his response is lethal, what makes his case any different from mine? The same amount of IC information is present, though in this scenario I lost because of the threat and similarly he responded to the threat, interchangeably had he been in my shoes he might have won my encounter and had I been in his the mime may have lived, but the factor of misdirection is working in both cases as intended, the mime could have been hiding his powers after being caught as antagonists are wont to do when cornered. Having the experience of an admin and a player, I find it poor to punish someone for playing the game.
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Re: [Booktower] Istoprocent - Unjustified Note Appeal

Postby wubli » Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:43 pm #513304

I need both parties to read this entire post.

This is what happened to my understanding:

A security player caught a ling. The mime helped this ling escape (with IC reasoning, because they had been helped by them before), and that made them valid, but their reason to help the antag was, as far as we know, reasonable.
For all sec knows, he could be an antag too. Act like an antag, get treated like one. So now, sec has the mime in brig. The CMO and an MD decide to get in the way of it without being fully aware of the situation, taking justice into their own hands. They get the ai to open up the door and so sec is forced to respond with disablers. CMO responds by syringe gunning! And the MD by pushing them, so they'll drop their baton. This is med people deciding to get in sec's way without the full story.

While they could've seen as valid too, sec player decided to just permabrig the MD. They could've been helping an antag, for all they knew, and they didn't even bother to know what they had done before trying to aid them. He got himself involved in conflict and then ahelped when they got permabrigged for helping a possible antag. Med players can't decide to get in the way of security and help prisoners without expecting them to act on it. They got what they were looking for. Sec had a very valid reason to kill the mime, and they had none to stop it.

Look at it from another perspective: you catch a ling, someone helps that ling, and when you catch this second person, two other people go to your department, SECURITY, and decide to help that person. They had no way of knowing they weren't antags and they either acted like one or tried to aid them. Were they "obviously not antags"? That's not something they could sit and reflect on. They had to act, and I think they did so out of frustration for having arrested people snatched away twice.

I do not agree with this note, and I will be removing it. The other headmins have agreed with this decision.

Side notes, but please read them:
Mathias Corvin says, " Reporting to gods "

Saying this is absolutely petty, and pretty OOC. Stop threatening people IC with OOC consequences, just ahelp it.

Istoprocent & Booktower: because things don't go your way, don't assume that "the guy's friend". Sometimes admins just don't agree with you, and that doesn't make them corrupt. I understand being upset about the outcome, but calling them friends because they disagreed with you makes you seem childish. I do not like how both of you approached the ahelp, the hostility was completely unnecessary. Avoid eachother if necessary, but refrain from being aggressive in ahelps.

Whatever their note history is, it's not relevant for this case, because they acted within the rules. This is not a thread for talking about them being "shitsec" or whatever. This is a specific case in which no rule was broken. I am the last person to encourage murder, or permabrig, but I fail to see how the logic Istoprocent followed is wrong.

This is resolved.
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