Remove Escalation

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Shadowflame909
 
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Remove Escalation

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:24 pm #518079

A wise person once said to me. If you want any rule changes, you're going to have to get the majority to agree with your philosophy.

Well here are my thoughts about what this rule is doing and has done to /tg/ and how it'd be best to see it go away.

My main theory is that the bad-eggs in the playerbase are burnt-out and can only find any joy in acting like a dick to other players. This has been happening through the mainstay of minor-grief. Like an assistant robbing those yellow gloves, you bought at the arrivals vendor. The chemist making a smoke machine and filling it up with space drugs and lube in the main halls. That janitor, while the ai is going nuclear and commando. As people are rushing to the arrivals pods, he's busy cleaning the halls with water and simply points at the sign five tiles away when people slip.

Yeah, this behavior is common and may very well be the backbone of /tg/. Far before me and others. Yet, going on a psychotic murder tangent should not be an appropriate response to this. My point being we have antagonists there to bring forth tension, disruption, and carnage. Who better to ruin your round than them? Instead of having the most prevalent rule in 90% of the ahelps cause 90% of the problems.

Security teams constantly run a fringe hunting down Shitter Mcreed and Bob Doctorson. The first getting into the spat willingly and as an act to further their dopamine kick, accepting any death or outcome of it. The second honestly just wanting to play the game the way it's meant to be played as a non-antagonist. Instead, they're getting pulled into a man-hunt where they toe the line of what is acceptable deterrence to sec trying to put them in the slammer.

Many players say, "So what. Escalation is my counter to shitters ruining my round." I say it's literally just a bomb disguised as a shield. It further extravagates said issues and propels them into an alternative version of Antag versus Player. Except you don't have to be an antagonist to cause it.

How will grief be dealt with without escalation? We have a security team to deal with minor infringes of petty-theft and disruption of the peace. That's what they're for, isn't it? We also have an admin team, who will actively step in when they see repeating instances of assholish behavior.

And even if these two situations don't work out. Why would it be better for you to focus your entire round in a conflict which will lead to the death of one of you, and most likely many more bystanders are drawn into a said ensuing war of the round. When you could have simply just shrugged it off.

It's hard being the bigger person. But without the nuclear option that devastates everyone, with no clear winners. The passive option will at least leave your round intact.

Thus, I say remove escalation. The game will be better without it. Grief will literally go down because it won't blow up thanks to escalation. More people being able to say, "Yeah I enjoyed that round." instead of saying "What the fuck, FUCK YOU shitsec. My round gets griefed and everything went downhill from there!"

Honestly, any cons that come from this would be significantly less from leaving the current state of it in.

It's the option forward and is the ss13 equivalent of disabling our nukes. It's better for everyone. As clear as day.

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ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby zxaber » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:01 pm #518081

We have a security team to deal with minor infringes of petty-theft and disruption of the peace.

Pretty big assumption, to be honest. It's really not that uncommon for sec to be empty, and I don't think I've ever seen them not understaffed.
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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Ghilker » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:15 pm #518082

zxaber wrote:
We have a security team to deal with minor infringes of petty-theft and disruption of the peace.

Pretty big assumption, to be honest. It's really not that uncommon for sec to be empty, and I don't think I've ever seen them not understaffed.

but sec is mostly empty because people dont want to deal with shitter assistants that use escalation to do whatever they want

"i'm gonna slip him"
+punch you one time
"i'm gonna toolbox him one time"
+start to try to toolbox and table but is unrobust
"well i can kill him now and leave him around med, maybe in 10 minutes someone will revive him"
^this has to stop

PostThis post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:07 am.
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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:27 pm #518084

zxaber wrote:
We have a security team to deal with minor infringes of petty-theft and disruption of the peace.

Pretty big assumption, to be honest. It's really not that uncommon for sec to be empty, and I don't think I've ever seen them not understaffed.


I've addressed the lack of security options by saying, "Shrug it off."

I guess another issue with escalation is that it's basically a duel to the eyes of the law. But not really.

You'll be arrested and chased down by security for getting into a fight to the death over escalation.

But the rules promote this as an option.

The rule doesn't work in the context of the game. Where it's supposed to be a civil environment that is infringed upon by players with allegiances to other corporations.

So any violence, even governed by our rules are treated as just that an enemy of the corporation lashing out.

I think if we're going to be realistic in-game whilst more "free" rules-wise. The rules should reflect the gameplay or vice versa.

And since the headmins control the rules and not the game-play. Escalation at it's least should be removed as a nuclear option and replaced with a simple glare of malice, and then players get back to what they're supposed to be doing.

If the person lashing out and violating the peace is no longer causing any tidal waves of mayhem. Then they shall be even more obvious to see and pull to the side.

As another analogy. Escalation is like the "Food-fight" in a cafeteria. Some asshat throws a piece of bread and now food is flying everywhere. It's hard to catch and it's a pain to deal with all that food on the ground.

If one guy shouts food-fight and throws some food. Yet nothing happens. It's really easy to clean up what he threw and reprimand him.


That's basically what should happen. This tidal wave of violence that is wholly unreflected by the rules thanks to a clash of gameplay elements should no longer exist.

Honestly. This is just the easiest resource for such events. Maintainers have a set direction for the game and it's like trying to push a boulder up a mountain. While trying to change it rules-wise is trying to push the boulder down the mountain.

Spoiler:
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ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Sandshark808 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:51 am #518094

The problem with escalation is that it's purely reactive. How are you supposed to know if the guy running up on you in the darkness is going to kill you? You can't ask, because you'll be dead before you finish typing. If you attack him or harass him nonlethally he can pretty much kill you for free because "you escalated." If you do nothing and they kill you, it's usually ruled an IC issue.

The only people who win are rules lawyers who powergame escalation by baiting people into making themselves valid.
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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Malkraz » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:51 am #518100

no
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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby deedubya » Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:54 am #518101

As much as escalation is just a bullshit excuse for bored greyshirts to grief and get valids, this whole "shrug it off" mentality isn't going to work with the current server culture. You can't leave it to security, because they'll usually refuse to help. You can't leave it to the admins, because someone stealing your ID and tools unprovoked is an "IC issue". You can't leave it to the codebus, because they continue to add more tools for griefers to abuse - like the most recent shoe theft PR. The only recourse you have to a griefer shitting up your round is dealing with it yourself, which would be impossible without escalation rules.

Basically, if you want to get rid of escalation, you need to breed out the culture of griefing that we've enabled first. Otherwise you're just going to make everything much, much worse for good faith players.
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oranges wrote:honestly holy shit deedubs you're a dent head

wesoda25 wrote:deedub is one of the people that makes me wish i could block users on forums

IkeTG wrote:every post from deedubya is worrying behavior

Super Aggro Crag wrote:you're a poo head!!!!!

TheMythicGhost wrote:You're a moron, but that's really nothing new since you're Deedubya, and really at this point I'm just playing an instrument by speaking since your head is so goddamn empty these words are resonating as they pass through.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Sandshark808 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:01 am #518103

deedubya wrote:Basically, if you want to get rid of escalation, you need to breed out the culture of griefing that we've enabled first. Otherwise you're just going to make everything much, much worse for good faith players.

This, but stealing shoes and gloves and hiding them is a silly prank and you should lighten up about that PR.
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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby deedubya » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:05 am #518107

Sandshark808 wrote:
deedubya wrote:Basically, if you want to get rid of escalation, you need to breed out the culture of griefing that we've enabled first. Otherwise you're just going to make everything much, much worse for good faith players.

This, but stealing shoes and gloves and hiding them is a silly prank and you should lighten up about that PR.

There's been a sharp decrease in clown players ever since that PR got merged. Care to guess why?
Galatians 4:16 "Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?"
hey imma teegee admeme compliment me on my appearance here

flattering compliments people have given me:
Spoiler:
oranges wrote:honestly holy shit deedubs you're a dent head

wesoda25 wrote:deedub is one of the people that makes me wish i could block users on forums

IkeTG wrote:every post from deedubya is worrying behavior

Super Aggro Crag wrote:you're a poo head!!!!!

TheMythicGhost wrote:You're a moron, but that's really nothing new since you're Deedubya, and really at this point I'm just playing an instrument by speaking since your head is so goddamn empty these words are resonating as they pass through.

Lazengann wrote:What's interesting about deedubya is the guy has no reading skills or comprehension and his ADHD is so severe he can't read through a single thread but he shows up to argue anyway

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:you really are almost superhumanly retarded dude, holy smokes.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:07 am #518108

deedubya wrote:
Sandshark808 wrote:
deedubya wrote:Basically, if you want to get rid of escalation, you need to breed out the culture of griefing that we've enabled first. Otherwise you're just going to make everything much, much worse for good faith players.

This, but stealing shoes and gloves and hiding them is a silly prank and you should lighten up about that PR.

There's been a sharp decrease in clown players ever since that PR got merged. Care to guess why?

coincidence
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Sandshark808 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:10 am #518111

deedubya wrote:
Sandshark808 wrote:
deedubya wrote:Basically, if you want to get rid of escalation, you need to breed out the culture of griefing that we've enabled first. Otherwise you're just going to make everything much, much worse for good faith players.

This, but stealing shoes and gloves and hiding them is a silly prank and you should lighten up about that PR.

There's been a sharp decrease in clown players ever since that PR got merged. Care to guess why?

I haven't noticed that. But if clonwe is gonna steal shoes he needs to be robust enough to throw a second banana to stop them from chasing.

I was in a really fun round where a chaplain "Steals-the-Shoes" built a mound-shrine of shoes to the god of feet. Barely anyone knows how to do it, but some people really are making the best of it.
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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:22 am #518112

deedubya wrote:Basically, if you want to get rid of escalation, you need to breed out the culture of griefing that we've enabled first. Otherwise you're just going to make everything much, much worse for good faith players.


My thinking is, it'll be much easier to see the shooter, when everyone isn't running and screaming because of him.

This is why shrug it off will work so well.

You can ping an admin in the discord to come online in the help section. All they'll have to do is take a few moments and watch some chucklefuck act like a total dick for the entire round. Stealing junk, griefing, breaking doors.

If no ones giving him the literal nuclear reaction of "fight fire with fire" then it'll only be one fire for the admins to extinguish, instead of trying to extinguish all 32 of them because of that one guy.

Spoiler:
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ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby XivilaiAnaxes » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:20 am #518203

Shadowflame909 wrote:
zxaber wrote:
We have a security team to deal with minor infringes of petty-theft and disruption of the peace.

Pretty big assumption, to be honest. It's really not that uncommon for sec to be empty, and I don't think I've ever seen them not understaffed.


I've addressed the lack of security options by saying, "Shrug it off."


???

No. If there are admins to punish me for killing greycunt mc jackass and throwing the corpse into the crystal because he unwrenched the plasma coolant loop to my engine setting off a fire there are admins that can punish greycunt mc jackass.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Cobby » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:26 am #518206

is an admin really going to punish you for killing someone sabotaging the engine? really???
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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby XivilaiAnaxes » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:28 am #518209

Cobby wrote:is an admin really going to punish you for killing someone sabotaging the engine? really???


It's why escalation exists. Replace the greyshit dickhead that burst in telling me he needed me to give him a "section of pipe" with any other monkey. If I can get banned because I bypassed "please secuwity come wescue me my shoes are stowen" that idiot can be banned instead.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:36 am #518210

It's never as simple as A - B.

The AI sees you commit murder by killing someone with the SM. Now security is knocking at your door.

Time is wasted if you peacefully go with them and wait out the 10 minutes/get perma'd for murder.

Your whole round is wasted if you decide to try to evade them because you're in the right.

You're also forgetting that you may not win that conflict.

So if you escalate, you lose ICLY. If you don't escalate, you've made a problem that much simpler to solve.

Honestly, playing vigilante in a paranoia filled game is just calling for trouble.

You create false leads of wrongdoing. Lead a trail of disruption and anger, and admins have to deal with 5 ahelps on one guy to get to the route of what started the mess.

Ahelp or get security on it. You don't need to dirty your hands and cause more havoc.

Spoiler:
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ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby XivilaiAnaxes » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:48 am #518212

I mean you're now implying that security is A - staffed, B - actually going to go after you, C - going to put you in perma or give you ten minutes because you killed a shitter. In my case the engineering officer literally walked in I told him the guy unwrenched the pipe so I fucked him up and he replied "Oh, good job CE".

If I'm Warden and some guy gets brought in because he killed a shoe thief I'm 80% letting him go free based on varying circumstances. Hell I straight walked of of the brig and buckshotted a known shitter myself because he did that to one of my inexperienced officers (Sorry Dornan).

Making a culture of "you need to ahelp everything" doesn't work when there aren't always admins and it straight kills the pace/immersion of the game more than anything else.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:56 am #518213

Congrats. That sounds like a perfect scenario in which the rule worked.

But, if we're going from the perspective of a CE themselves. They specifically spawn with a telescopic baton so they don't have to brutalize people being disobedient.

In that scenario, it would still work if you dragged said shitter off to sec yourself since they were clearly active that round.

You would have just done so with less bloodshed. Which in my viewpoint, would better be more clearly reserved for antagonistic actions.

On one hand, the game has a security team designed to stop the enemy of the corporation causing bloodshed and disrupting the game.

But we have a rule that as shown in your example. Clearly allows for bloodshed when it's not necessary, outside of any antagonistic intervention.

That doesn't make sense. It's very disruptive to the flow of the game, and if the situation went even slightly wrong for you XivilaiAnaxes. It would have benefited the non-antagonist disruptor.

The rule is faulty and has many moving variables that are required to be synchronized. If you win the fight against the minor-griefer, how security responds to this, how the ai responds to this, and how this has benefited you.

It simply doesn't need to exist, as it's a ruling where there are already built-in alternatives. Since the rule is entirely outside the scope of the game design.

Two non-antagonists should not use combat as a solution to job-related issues. There are more than a handful of alternatives sticking in the realm of purely IC conflict resolution.

Fights to the death can stay in the rage-cage, or through antagonistic disruption outside of it.

Spoiler:
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ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby XivilaiAnaxes » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:12 am #518216

Shadowflame909 wrote:But, if we're going from the perspective of a CE themselves. They specifically spawn with a telescopic baton so they don't have to brutalize people being disobedient.


Honestly, I don't think I've seen a single person ever use one of those since Orange Man hard nerfed them.

Shadowflame909 wrote:On one hand, the game has a security team designed to stop the enemy of the corporation causing bloodshed and disrupting the game.


Except when we don't - which is probably in excess of 50% of rounds. Nobody wants to play as security because the majority of shitters have more experience than they do and get robusted all the time. Or the fact that if they ever try to do their job it's "SHITSEC". Or the fact that if it's ever a greenshift or a shift with stealth tators their job mostly consists of walking about doing jack shit unless it's low pop enough for them to just do their departments job.

Shadowflame909 wrote:That doesn't make sense. It's very disruptive to the flow of the game, and if the situation went even slightly wrong for you XivilaiAnaxes. It would have benefited the non-antagonist disruptor.


Then if you ahelp you aren't breaking your round immersion to F1 and go "yo is this guy a tot or something?". Maybe I'll get told it was "IC" or that he was a tot and meh I guess I'll play something else it is what it is.

Shadowflame909 wrote:The rule is faulty and has many moving variables that are required to be synchronized. If you win the fight against the minor-griefer, how security responds to this, how the ai responds to this, and how this has benefited you.


I mean it makes a better story than "I ahelped it and he got bwoinked"

There are plenty of servers full of fruity admins that constantly go "um bro that isn't appropriate you're not sec" and I'm much happier not playing in them.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby PepperPrepper » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:14 am #518217

My train of thought might just be because I'm new but surely if escalation was removed it would be a hell of a lot easier to identify antags.

Because it would mean that anyone that is actually going around being a shitter is either an antag or someone that is going to get banned.

And at the same time it would just make fighting antags a lot harder:

Let's say your HoP the QM has been ordering guns (Sure it's not the best thing to be doing with the budget but whatever). Then said QM disables you and starts dragging you into maint. What would you normally do? robust the bastard and make him feel bad for not chucking cuffs on you. But without escalation? 1. Call sec and pray to god they get there before god knows what? 2. Ahelp it and get the admin to confirm that they are an antag? And if they're not an antag just go with 1 and hope for the best?

it feels if escalation where to be removed you would be removing such rules as: act like an antag be treated like an antag. Which would make the game a lot more annoying to deal with actual threats and not just shoe stealing shitters.

Also if escalation is removed then why would the heads have telescopic batons? They are not that effective against antags and a really only suited for when people break into your department.

Again I could be looking at this the wrong was seeing as I am fairly new to ss13 but I feel like a lack of escalation would only degrade from the paranoia and (the little amount that exists) RP experience.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:31 am #518219

Sitting here and responding piece by piece, point by point with long-winded blog posts no one's going to read isn't going to make me convince you of anything.

Although... if you're in the CE position. Sec becomes less of a major option you have to take. Your baton's purpose should be to get nasty burnt out players who want to grief you out of your hair.

They're in the mindset of "how much fun can I get by acting like an asshole" while you're just trying to play the game.

It shouldn't turn into a vigilante murder-fest. That does confuse many aspects of the game. It makes the admin's job harder. It attracts the AI's and sec's attention when they should be focused on antagonists. Not regular crew-members.

Baton, call sec. Or Baton and throw them out. If it's gotten the point where murder is the only refuge of stopping such a player from lashing out. Seriously, Ahelp.

It's gone beyond an IC issue. They're actively breaking the rules and purpose of the game. They're making you play by there tune.

If no admin is on. That's what the help section in the discord is for.

If it's gone beyond direct IC intervention. You must use OOC means to deal with it. For your sanity. For the sanity of the players playing the game correctly, and for the sanity of our admin-team.

Spoiler:
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ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby PepperPrepper » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:51 am #518220

Shadowflame909 wrote:Although... if you're in the CE position. Sec becomes less of a major option you have to take. Your baton's purpose should be to get nasty burnt out players who want to grief you out of your hair.


But using your baton on the would count as escalation. If escalation was removed and they have broken into your workplace and are stealing things you could not respond with and force that could possibly be perceived as being violent. After all that would be... escalation.

Spoiler:
If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator. If you are concerned about being "kill baited" then consider calling security, using non lethal means to subdue your opponent, fleeing, or otherwise working things out (talking them down, getting your stolen items replaced, etc)

You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence. If you think it's unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round.

If you are the instigator in a conflict and end up killing or severely impairing the round of the person you are fighting, you should make a reasonable effort to return them to life at least once or make amends, only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you. This protection doesn't apply to an instigator being killed.

Exceptions: Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.


if the above rule was removed then if a player wronged you in any way that was not direct assault you would be IC limited to calling sec as anything else would be escalating the situation.

which would seriously complicate break ins and allow griefers to have their way with departments and expect little to no consequences.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Sandshark808 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:55 am #518222

PepperPrepper wrote:
Shadowflame909 wrote:Although... if you're in the CE position. Sec becomes less of a major option you have to take. Your baton's purpose should be to get nasty burnt out players who want to grief you out of your hair.


But using your baton on the would count as escalation. If escalation was removed and they have broken into your workplace and are stealing things you could not respond with and force that could possibly be perceived as being violent. After all that would be... escalation.

Spoiler:
If a player wrongs you(theft, attacks, etc), you may retaliate. If you choose to retaliate with violence, you in turn have opened yourself up to violence. If you choose this route, do not expect admins to help you out if you die, even if you were not the original instigator. If you are concerned about being "kill baited" then consider calling security, using non lethal means to subdue your opponent, fleeing, or otherwise working things out (talking them down, getting your stolen items replaced, etc)

You may instigate conflict with another player within reason (you can't completely destroy their department, kill them unprovoked, or otherwise take them out of the round for long periods of time) but they are entitled to respond with violence. If you think it's unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round.

If you are the instigator in a conflict and end up killing or severely impairing the round of the person you are fighting, you should make a reasonable effort to return them to life at least once or make amends, only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you. This protection doesn't apply to an instigator being killed.

Exceptions: Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.


if the above rule was removed then if a player wronged you in any way that was not direct assault you would be IC limited to calling sec as anything else would be escalating the situation.

which would seriously complicate break ins and allow griefers to have their way with departments and expect little to no consequences.

Batoning on help intent is nonviolent. It deals 0 damage.
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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Istoprocent1 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:55 am #518223

Escalation and validhunting are not the same thing.

Nothing wrong with the escalation. If one plays stupid games, one wins stupid prizes.

Excessive validhunting (ie. hunting for valids, meaning antags or people who act like antags) by non-sec roles can be a problem as it is detrimental to sec gameplay. Then again, if the validhunter gets caught having weapons or murdering, then they can be brigged or valided themselves and that kinda fixes the problem.

Trying to turn players into "helpless victims who have to rely on ahelps in order to play the game" is something we all should be strongly against, because if that happens we all have to stop playing the fun spessman game and start playing the competitive ahelp game, where everybody is ahelping everybody.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:57 am #518224

A telescopic baton is a non lethal means of stopping departmental conflict and is therefore not escalation, as seen by the second clause in the ruling you've quoted. It's the alternative.

When it should be the only option outside of self defense.

Spoiler:
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ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby PepperPrepper » Sun Oct 06, 2019 5:58 am #518225

Apologies. I've misinterpreted this threads title. To be clear this would be removing the "Act like an antag be treated like one" correct?

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby PepperPrepper » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:02 am #518226

Yes that is true it is in the second clause in the escalation rule. But if the entire Escalation rule where to be removed then so would the second clause.
meaning you could not commit nonlethal escalation.

again I think this thread is focusing on the "Act like an antag be treated like one" rule and if it is the I rescind this (and my previous posts)

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:06 am #518227

Also, maybe my argument should be phrased better to removing the lethality of escalation. Which is basically escalation.

If you have to bash someone's head in to get them to stop disrupting your game. You're literally not playing the fun spaceman game.

Act like an antag and lethallly attack someone. Get stomped on in self defense.

Bashing the skull of the asshole delaminating the supermatter into unconsciousness is not playing the game. It's stopping a griefer or an antagonist.

By using escalation. You're giving his behavior IC justification. Allowing them to continue it.

If they were stopped through non lethal means and ahelped. It's much clearer who the troublemaker really is, and you can go back to your fun. Instead of dealing with the consequences of making major antag behavior as a non antagonist valid.

Also pepper. The second clause states the alternatives. You don't have to worry about escalation while doing them because you're not starting it.

Spoiler:
Image

ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby PepperPrepper » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:09 am #518228

Sandshark808 wrote:Batoning on help intent is nonviolent. It deals 0 damage.


Well in my belief the act of smacking someone on the head even if it deals no damage to the target it still would count as escalation as it is physical contact. it's just like how I would believe disarm chain stunning someone against a wall would count as assault even though it deals no damage.

(though my belief on the whole baton counting as assault thing has gotten me yelled at in deadchat before I might just being thinking about thing more IC then OOC)

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:11 am #518229

It's not assault. It's a dispersal method by the rules. Construing it as assault is the same as construing slipping on a bar of soap as assault.

It isn't upholdable by the rules.

Spoiler:
Image

ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby PepperPrepper » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:14 am #518230

Shadowflame909 wrote:Also, maybe my argument should be phrased better to removing the lethality of escalation. Which is basically escalation.

If you have to bash someone's head in to get them to stop disrupting your game. You're literally not playing the fun spaceman game.

Act like an antag and lethallly attack someone. Get stomped on in self defense.

Bashing the skull of the asshole delaminating the supermatter into unconsciousness is not playing the game. It's stopping a griefer or an antagonist.

By using escalation. You're giving his behavior IC justification. Allowing them to continue it.

If they were stopped through non lethal means and ahelped. It's much clearer who the troublemaker really is, and you can go back to your fun. Instead of dealing with the consequences of making major antag behavior as a non antagonist valid.

Also pepper. The second clause states the alternatives. You don't have to worry about escalation while doing them because you're not starting it.


Well then yes I completely agree with you. After all this is a roleplaying game about living on a space station in the future. It's not a caveman simulator.

also surely acting overtly lethal on people doing such things as delaminating the SM would already count as improper escalation as the receiver of the robusting is not acting lethal to the escalator?

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Istoprocent1 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:35 am #518232

Shadowflame909 wrote:If you have to bash someone's head in to get them to stop disrupting your game. You're literally not playing the fun spaceman game.


Bashing somebody's head in can be pretty entertaining, especially if you are in the right to do so.

There already are protections against griefing such as: don't delam the engine fnr, don't plasmaflood fnr, don't kill somebody fnr etc and all of these are enforced.

Escalation is a good deterrent against people messing with others. If you know that you can get messed up to the point that the round ends for you, then it can make you think twice about doing things.

If A chooses to mess with B, then B has the option to escalate (think of it as a two-way handshake) and robust A or call for security. Note that A cannot just go an maim or kill B fnr, because they are being an instigator themselves. If A persists after B doesn't escalate, then B can ahelp.

Edit: Once B chooses to escalate (complete the two-way handshake by hitting back or whatever), then whatever happens is an IC issue as long as A drags B to cloning should they win (B does not have this requirement as they are not the instigator) and neither of them spaces/cremates the other.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:45 am #518233

The thing with escalation is that Istoprocent1. The mindset of the person acting like an asshole is that they're looking for dopamine in any way necessary.

That being, messing with you until they get a reaction.

Escalation is nothing more than validation of their grief. Literally, it's one of the most abused loopholes to our rules since, well ever!

Instead of letting that shitter delaminate the SM and get banned. He fucks with you and gets killed. You'd think it'd be "Well that's that. He shouldn't try that anymore and we can all move on."

Sadly no. The way the game works is that ss13 is essentially an advanced game of mafia or wolf. If you're getting into straight conflict with the disruptor. This is throwing a whole lot of factors off and is quite honestly ruining your round even more so then just letting him eat a ban. Or just non-lethally pacifying them ever would.

You've attracted the ire of the artificial intelligence system, the security team, the admins just generally trying to keep the game running and it's completely terrorizing your round.

Let me put it into a common scenario.

How many times have you been arrested by "shit-sec" because you stooped down to the level of some griefer and escalated against him? You were in the right, defending yourself and shitting on someone trying to push your buttons for the fun of it. Now your time is being wasted by the security team and you're completely pissed off.

This wouldn't happen if the proper game of mafia played out without this literal stone-throwing ripples into the river of ss13.

Shit players are always going to be shit players. And shit players exist because they get no enjoyment out of playing the game normally anymore.

Escalation allows shit players to create ripples in the game of ss13.

If you remove their ability to create ripples. Then the game will continue normally with you having an even more entertaining time because you could actually do the role you wanted to play.

Spoiler:
Image

ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Istoprocent1 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:00 am #518235

Shadowflame909 wrote:That being, messing with you until they get a reaction.


If you don't give them the reaction they are looking for, their "get a reaction out of somebody" game becomes boring and they either stop or move on. If they persist and you are consciously choosing not to escalate, then the player will be eventually banned and you can go on with your day.

Shadowflame909 wrote:Let me put it into a common scenario.

How many times have you been arrested by "shit-sec" because you stooped down to the level of some griefer and escalated against him? You were in the right, defending yourself and shitting on someone trying to push your buttons for the fun of it. Now your time is being wasted by the security team and you're completely pissed off.


Whenever I don't play security, I rarely choose to escalate, because its usually not worth it and people tend to give up really fast if you don't give them the attention they are looking for. Few shoves and punches aren't going to cause waves in my round. Should they choose to take it further by stealing my ID, heirloom or performing somewhat inconveniencing actions, then I escalate and either of two things happen - I die trying or they get inconvenienced themselves. Regardless of the outcome its still an IC issue for me.
Last edited by Istoprocent1 on Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:02 am #518236

Well. You don't mind the outcome and that's fine. It's a rule that fits you and you enjoy giving out retribution.

But if I'm just trying to play xenobio/geneticist/chemist or whatever and because some burnt-out griefer pushed my buttons. I end up dead in maint. That's not cool for me. Intentionally inconvenience me as an antagonist. Or don't inconvenience me at all.

Spoiler:
Image

ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Istoprocent1 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:09 am #518238

Call the security, call other members of your department (if they escalate against the guy, it stops being your problem as they can duke it out with the instigator while you can go back enjoying your round) or just let it happen and if they kill you without you escalating, then Observe->Player and if they don't have a moodlet then ahelp.

The problem you are facing is not the escalation, but rather the good old greytiding. Why is the dude even breaking into your lab in the first place etc? Removing escalation removes your ability to fight back ie. escalate, which is a no-no and thus the tider could just keep coming back and there is nothing you could do about it other than ahelp. Much better is to have the additional options to deal with them IC.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:37 am #518241

I've only really got two more things to say about that Istoprocent1.

Number one is that escalation is a bomb disguised as a shield. You crit/kill someone, but if you're literally the first person who decided to get violent. Then they come back and get to hunt you down. It's a chain reaction that, as I've said before effects the whole game of ss13 mafia.

It doesn't help you. It blows up in your face and makes the pain much worse.

Two, it literally prevents admin intervention when someone's clearly breaking rules.

Like a guy is getting a fire-axe and is breaking all the windows. Venting the bridge windows into space, arrivals. everything.

You beat the crap out of him because "yo this is grief you're literally killing us by doing this." Well, now they aren't getting banned for that. But the effects of their actions are still evident.

I think it's mainly differing opinions, and that's okay. You prefer to beat the crap out of griefers.

Enough is enough for me though. Escalation has lost its true spirit. It's the burnt-out player's loophole which they will continue breaking and breaking. Killing the fun out of normal players just trying to play the game. Getting security lamented and bashed for trying to keep the peace, as they arrest two non-antagonists instead of the real antag whose role it is to cause havoc.

It's terrible for this game. It's completely dysfunctional.

Violence for fun wouldn't completely disappear if it went away. IE the rage cage or the many holo-deck options.

But violence to stop disruption can suck it. It just causes more disruption and that's not okay.

You shouldn't be forced to keep beating the crap out of the same players every round because they want to bait you into escalating against them so they can get away with their shittery.

It's not good for this server.

Spoiler:
Image

ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Istoprocent1 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 7:54 am #518245

Shadowflame909 wrote:Like a guy is getting a fire-axe and is breaking all the windows. Venting the bridge windows into space, arrivals. everything.


This falls under Rule 1.

Shadowflame909 wrote:You beat the crap out of him because "yo this is grief you're literally killing us by doing this." Well, now they aren't getting banned for that. But the effects of their actions are still evident.


The bigger problem is that you can get yourself banned, because you decided to stop a griefer from griefing. Breaking windows to space is obviously antagonistic behaviour and should fall under Rule 4, but depending on which admin the dunked griefer goes running to, in their subjective opinion it might not be and then there be drama.

Shadowflame909 wrote:You shouldn't be forced to keep beating the crap out of the same players every round because they want to bait you into escalating against them so they can get away with their shittery.


This sounds like Rule 1 Precedent 4. If somebody does that round after round, then its already ahelpable and has nothing to do with escalation.

Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1.

I agree that greytiding is a problem, then again I disagree with the escalation being a problem.

You pointed out how playing on paradise is cancer in the NTR Hut, lets not turn /tg/ into the next paradise. :roll:

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Sandshark808 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:12 am #518250

Istoprocent1 wrote:This sounds like Rule 1 Precedent 4. If somebody does that round after round, then its already ahelpable and has nothing to do with escalation.

Unprovoked grief (occasionally known as greytiding), repeated cases of minor unprovoked grief, and unprovoked grief targeted towards specific players or groups (i.e. metagrudging) fall under rule 1.

I agree that greytiding is a problem, then again I disagree with the escalation being a problem.

You pointed out how playing on paradise is cancer in the NTR Hut, lets not turn /tg/ into the next paradise. :roll:

The problem with Paradise is they enforce rules that are made up on the spot.

The problem with /tg/ is that we don't enforce the ones we already have.
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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:56 pm #518289

The biggest negative feature about that server is that they'll ban antagonists for killing others to survive, literally.

The biggest problem here is that non-antagonists are killing each other more then the antagonists will kill during a round.

Maybe that's because 100 players reasonably cannot find enough entertaining things to do.

But it certainly does suck.

Spoiler:
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ThanatosRa wrote:My biggest problem is that I can't fix any of this.


Boris wrote:shadowflame either has a brain the size of a pea or one the size of the moon and he's playing 58D chess.


BeeSting12 wrote:please write an apology to this forums, this community, the host, and the internet as a whole for the data storage space you wasted with this complaint.


BebeYoshi wrote:Saltyflame909


Cobby wrote:The trash bin... have you lost your way home anon?

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Jzoid » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:34 pm #518364

my biggest problem with escalation rules as they stand; highlighted in an admin complaint forum recently, regarding a lizard who was killed by a borg and spaced, is that as long as your body is found, it seems to be fine.

as long as the other person doesn't destroy your body, them killing you for the most idiotic of reasons is a.o.k. as long as there's any possible way for your body to be found, even if it's spaced into a random direction, then who cares?

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Dr_bee » Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:36 pm #518384

The biggest problem with escalation is that it muddies the waters on rule enforcement. when non-antag murder of non-antags was a 100% no no there was no ambiguity to rule enforcement for admins. The players also knew where the line was, which is how the term "valid-hunter" started in the first place, as they were players searching for antags to get a valid kill.

Remove escalation and you remove the ambiguity from combat. Killing someone should be a big deal, especially with the new medical changes.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby cedarbridge » Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:47 pm #518584

XivilaiAnaxes wrote:
Cobby wrote:is an admin really going to punish you for killing someone sabotaging the engine? really???


It's why escalation exists. Replace the greyshit dickhead that burst in telling me he needed me to give him a "section of pipe" with any other monkey. If I can get banned because I bypassed "please secuwity come wescue me my shoes are stowen" that idiot can be banned instead.

You don't need escalation for that. There are several other rules cases that already cover that situation.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:52 am #518836

If it ain't broken, don't change it. Escalation is fine as it is. The author has a problem with greytiding.

Escalation - they hit you, you have multiple choices (ignore, call help, escalate), if you choose to ignore or call help then you can ahelp the situation, if they persist and are going out of their way to ruin your round (killing you fnr, putting you in an inescapable situation etc). You are expected to be a big boy and be able to handle a few shoves without flipping out. Then again if you choose to escalate the world becomes your oyster and the only limit is your robustness.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Skillywatt » Sun Oct 13, 2019 4:32 pm #519099

two things could be done to alleviate some issues:

1. better define/better enforce banbaiting and how it relates to escalation. I've read a good number of "escalation" appeals overturned wherein the person who originally ahelped probably could have gotten a talking to for ban baiting. There's even one up right now with is a lizard's warden play that I wouldn't be surprised if it got overturned.

This might give some shitters pause.

2. Adopt a "you break it, you buy it" rule where you have to drag someone to medbay or security if you crit/kill someone in an escalation encounter (absent reasonable suspicion they're antag)

We already have a hard red line for non-antag escalation encounters and that's permanent round removal. I suggest moving the line up to at least reasonable effort to keep the person in the round unless you have good reason to believe they're an antag. The rules already say you should do *something* if you're the instigator but defining/enforcing this a little bit better would probably make the "escalation bait" fights less attractive if you have to clean up your own mess. It would have to be explained, however, that killing someone fnr and then immediately cloning them is still not an acceptable practice.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Dr_bee » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:05 pm #519103

Hard red line should be death, not permanent round removal. Everyone in the game is given an epinephrine pen for a reason. There is no reason you cannot beat someone into crit, epi-pen them, then fireman carry their ass to medbay. Beating someone to death is frankly bad roleplay as you are beating your co-worker to death.

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:23 pm #519105

Dr_bee wrote:Hard red line should be death, not permanent round removal. Everyone in the game is given an epinephrine pen for a reason. There is no reason you cannot beat someone into crit, epi-pen them, then fireman carry their ass to medbay. Beating someone to death is frankly bad roleplay as you are beating your co-worker to death.

Is it really bad roleplay in a scenario where literal revival from the dead is common?
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Shadowflame909 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:14 pm #519108

Maybe when Kor was headmin and headcoder

we're moving away from revival and healing being so easy though but we don't have a headmincoder to adjust the rules as fast as the code gets adjusted

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Re: Remove Escalation

Postby Sandshark808 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:18 pm #519109

Shadowflame909 wrote:Maybe when Kor was headmin and headcoder

we're moving away from revival and healing being so easy though but we don't have a headmincoder to adjust the rules as fast as the code gets adjusted

This. The fiction of ubiquitous cloners and sleepers to bring the dead back from the brink is vanishing patch by patch. Eventually the rules will change to deal with whatever we have when medbay changes aren't so drastic.
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