Make Escalation Rules more specific

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Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby genessee » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:47 am #524664

WAIT! This isn't like the dozen other policy threads whining about this! I have actual, physical changes to propose -- all of which can be seen in the google doc linked here:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RzU6ZvHfqBP015ZrQJPjdp57TPIWAxK0zxXloKKgo7U/edit?usp=sharing

If you don't want to open that up, here's the most important part of the revision.
171837737387.PNG


What this changes is two things - one, that you may only respond with an equal level of violence to the violence the other player enacted upon you. No longer can you decapitate someone who punched you once! And two, that even brandishing a weapon in a fight is considered to be as bad as actually using said weapon. No longer do you have to wait for sec to start beating you to a pulp before you can fight back, as long as they're waving their batons around!

TL;DR: You can't murder someone for punching you once anymore (though you can still punch them back), and brandishing a weapon in a fight is considered just as bad as actually using it.



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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby wesoda25 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:51 am #524665

I think its a step in the right direction in the sense that we actually define the stuff. You could say escalation was left purposefully vague, which it was, but thats why its never ceased to stop being an issue. In an ideal world we wouldn't need the rule at all because its really common sense, but no one has that in SS13.

Obviously this is rough draft and needs to be refined, which is what the thread is for. I don't have the brain capacity for any suggestions rn so I'll do some later.
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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby genessee » Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:53 am #524666

wesoda25 wrote:I think its a step in the right direction in the sense that we actually define the stuff. You could say escalation was left purposefully vague, which it was, but thats why its never ceased to stop being an issue. In an ideal world we wouldn't need the rule at all because its really common sense, but no one has that in SS13.

Obviously this is rough draft and needs to be refined, which is what the thread is for. I don't have the brain capacity for any suggestions rn so I'll do some later.


Sounds good!

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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby Cobby » Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:08 am #524672

If both parties can only react in kind, how does the concept of escalation exist?
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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby Shadowflame909 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:12 am #524675

Cobby wrote:If both parties can only react in kind, how does the concept of escalation exist?


It doesn't and thats a good thing

Don't murder your co-workers over petty disputes. Thats insanity

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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby Karp » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:13 am #524676

Cobby wrote:If both parties can only react in kind, how does the concept of escalation exist?


This is a big glaring issue. The escalating party would be the one who generally gets in trouble in fights, meaning that nobody could ever escalate situations and then resolve them. If both parties are given that freedom, then the whole fact that the victim is the one who escalates against the aggressor wouldn't exist and the party to attack first would be the one that gets to win fights. Unless the idea is to remove violence from the game entirely, which would inevitably mean either making greytiding a full admin issue where admins have to work everything out or outright banning greytiding actions like B&E, theft, destruction of property, and as a result would make any act of violence a meta tell for someone being an antag or rulebreaker. If the above doesn't happen, then the only ic conflict resolution is hoping sec might hear your case out and arrest the other guy.

If you're wondering, the reason escalation is very tit for tat right now is to punish people who escalate to murder if they lose and to also punish people who start conflict and resolve it all ICly. An example is that if you steal something important from someone they are free to murder you, or the victim of the theft could just try to stun and avoid the chance of losing the fight and potentially being killed. You open yourself up to being retaliated on by engaging in escalation to discourage shitty situations where one party is free to try to kill another while the other has to just run away constantly or risk being banned.

If you engage in a fight and lose, it is 100% your fault and your punishment is your critting or death, dependent on what the victor likes.

Escalation is very straightforward now anyways, if someone steals/robs more important shit from you it means they've opened themselves up for retribution. The level of retribution you can seek depends on the aggressors actions, with theft of important items resulting in violence and minor ones resulting in disarming and smaller scuffles that shouldn't be lethal without retaliation. If they attack you with lethal intent, they open themselves up for lethals. If they decide to use stuns or they get lucky and security responds instead, they cannot escalate with lethal force against you without both being an aggressor and escalator in the situation which is likely punishment worthy. Don't be dumb and give them justification to murder you.

The reason lethals and murder are allowed in the first place is because it's meant to be the hardest deterrent on inciting conflict while still enabling it to occur ICly and to keep it as an IC issue. Universally in almost every videogame death is the hardest disable, especially in ss13.

I think escalation has glaring issues and ambiguous areas, but that mostly relates to interactions with security and de-escalating conflicts. Right now there is no objective metric on what de-escalation is and it purely comes up to arbitrary admin enforcement. Security is also basically given equal escalation rights to normal crew members while they enjoy special admin privileges(If an officer is attacked, all of security can retaliate and effectively murder the person while the person in question is unable to react or fight back in any capacity without being banned for killing half of security) A guideline for both admins and players on those two things would heavily help.

FYI, stunlocking people fnr as a nonantag is already against rule 1. Infinite pipe disposals loops and keeping people permanently stunned and trapped as nonantags is punishment worthy and you can already adminhelp it. Permanent n2o also roughly falls under this from a previous ruling, if you do it to a traitor or a changeling instead of killing or cremating them you might get boinked to just finish them off and give them mercy instead of forcing them to be trapped in the round or accept permanent removal by ghosting. If this happens to a wizard though I doubt anyone would mind, I certainly wouldn't.

Spoiler below on why your high risk trespassing idea completely misunderstands the reasoning behind the "You can be killed for breaking into high risk areas" section of escalation

Spoiler:
Trespassing in a high-risk area (Unauthorized player in HoP office or Armory, for example)
First, make sure that the person is actually trespassing -- if the head of the department he’s breaking into is cool with it, then you should keep an eye on them but leave them be. If they don’t have access, or you can’t get in contact with the department head, non-lethally subdue the trespasser and bring them in for questioning. If you believe the trespasser is dangerous (i.e. armed with energy guns they stole from armory) you may lethally subdue the trespasser, search their person, and bring them to cloning accordingly.


The reason you are allowed to murder people for this is to prevent greytiding. If someone walks into the armory they are either greytiding in, an antag, or they have been granted access by the warden/hos/captain/ai into the armory. If the punishment for breaking into the captains office or any other high security area is death it is a hard disincentive against breaking into these places and gives a very clear pathway of retaliation for things like spare rushing, gun rushing, and high security item rushing where the punishment for being caught is round removal. This is meant to be a balance between enabling high security item theft for nonantags and preventing things like armory or spare rushing from being unstoppable with 10 tiders constantly disarm spamming and pushing to steal the spare from a captain or sec team without enough cuffs or time to restrain all 10 gun/spare grabbers.


this is my perspective personally from everything I understand of escalation and from all the reasoning that I know exists behind it
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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby Sandshark808 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:19 am #524696

Now I want to see someone keep a wizard alive on life support (or locked in a manual cryopod) to keep the round from ending.
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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby skoglol » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:33 am #524698

Sandshark808 wrote:Now I want to see someone keep a wizard alive on life support (or locked in a manual cryopod) to keep the round from ending.

Way back, as zombie wizard before the real zombies were removed. I lost a fight, then was crit, gagged, blinded, straight jacketed and put in a morgue tray. Iirc I was unable to succumb, so ghosted in the end. Its amazing what some people will do for some extended.

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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby deedubya » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:52 pm #524750

Karp wrote:Right now there is no objective metric on what de-escalation is and it purely comes up to arbitrary admin enforcement.

It's a pretty simple explanation as to why de-escalation doesn't realistically exist. People who play this game are petty as fuck and never let something drop. Occasionally it's justified paranoia that occurs naturally within a round, but for the most part people just want an excuse to turn someone else horizontal and get away with it. "We got into a fight earlier in the round and security broke it up, how do I know he won't come back to finish the job?" or "Security broke up the fight, but they never returned my stolen insuls, so he's valid" or other such issues.
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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby Shad0k » Wed Nov 20, 2019 10:44 am #524829

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's a paradise for killbaiters and rule lawyers.

Right now, if a tider breaks into your department and refuses to leave when asked, you can either:
1) Watch passively and let the assistant tide and steal everything.
2) Call security (spoiler: They won't come)
3) Use non-lethals, but most people don't carry non-lethals for no reason and I don't think encouraging this is a good idea.
4) Crit by applying toolbox to the head.

Most players resort to crit and heal because it's either that or option 1. It's also relatively safe, because tiders can't remove you from the round for defending your department thanks to current rules: "If you are the instigator in a conflict and end up killing or severely impairing the round of the person you are fighting, you should make a reasonable effort to return them to life at least once or make amends, only seeking round removal if they continue to pursue you. This protection doesn't apply to an instigator being killed."
But with these changes, if you attempt to crit and heal a tider with, say, a toolbox,(a "lethal" weapon) the tider can assume that you're trying to kill him, murder you, and get away with it? As I said, killbaiters will love this.

Weapons that deal 10+ damage per hit are "lethal", but what's the difference between toolboxing someone to crit and punching someone to crit? One is more effective, but the end result is the same, spessmen is horizontal but still alive, so why should we treat these differently? Once your victim is in crit, you can heal them or finish them off, "lethal" weapon or not. Same goes for stun weaponry, actually. They can be deadlier than what's considered a lethal weapon.

Intent always matters, and your rules don't take that into account.
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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby Grazyn » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:15 am #524986

genessee wrote:
If you don't want to open that up, here's the most important part of the revision.
171837737387.PNG



This is going to be an administrative mess because "brandishing" things isn't logged AFAIK so how are admins going to investigate appeals such as "Yes I know logs show me hitting him first with a welder but I only did that because he pulled out a wrench"? Are fingerprints logged or only available in round?

Also, fun fact, this "equal force" thing is how RL self-defence law used to work in my country in the early 2000s: you weren't allowed to use your gun against a home intruder who was only armed with a knife, you were supposed to meet him with "equal force". This is, of course, retarded and the law was changed a few years later.

What I mean is, aggression can happen any time and you can't realistically start to look for a suitable "equal force" weapon out of fear of becoming the "escalator" because your only available weapon outmatched the aggressor's. We already have something similar now and it only applies to security who are supposed to always use their non-lethal gear first. Your proposed change would basically force the entire crew to security standards.

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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby peoplearestrange » Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:39 pm #524997

This also still doesn't address where most of the issue and complaints lie. Which is what happens when someone ends up dead.

Here are some questions that often come up whilst admining:
Is killing someone ever acceptable (not including antags) and what circumstances is it acceptable under?
Is not letting someone leave an area indefinitely (i.e. trapping them), the same as death?
Is leaving their body outside of medbay acceptable for getting them cloned?
Is leaving them in a public corridor enough?
Is critting someone the same as killing them from an escalation POV?
Is revenge acceptable ever? And under what circumstances?
Is spacing someone ever acceptable?
Is hiding their body in maint the same as spacing?

Escalation unfortunately opens up a LOT of questions. And I think trying to sit where we current are (somewhere in the middle) adds a LOT of complication and clauses.
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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby Reyn » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:56 pm #525154

peoplearestrange wrote:This also still doesn't address where most of the issue and complaints lie. Which is what happens when someone ends up dead.

Here are some questions that often come up whilst admining:
Is killing someone ever acceptable (not including antags) and what circumstances is it acceptable under?
Is not letting someone leave an area indefinitely (i.e. trapping them), the same as death?
Is leaving their body outside of medbay acceptable for getting them cloned?
Is leaving them in a public corridor enough?
Is critting someone the same as killing them from an escalation POV?
Is revenge acceptable ever? And under what circumstances?
Is spacing someone ever acceptable?
Is hiding their body in maint the same as spacing?

Escalation unfortunately opens up a LOT of questions. And I think trying to sit where we current are (somewhere in the middle) adds a LOT of complication and clauses.


Is killing someone ever acceptable (not including antags) and what circumstances is it acceptable under?

If someone is: A credible threat to your life or the station at whole (Ie, Plasmaman planning to make fusion in the station's oxygen supply, Someone uploading a law to the ai which does significantly more harm than good) or if someone breaks into an area and won't leave through words or nonlethal force, OR if someone is outright harming you in a way which can only be stopped through lethal force... Or breaking into somewhere like armoury, vault, ai upload, or the ai sat, It's perfectly reasonable. Someone breaking in? I wouldn't say outright kill them unless they're doing something stupid or refuse to leave when being asked to, or are armed and seem to have no intent of just being kicked out. Ie, Mime with a chainsaw breaks into science, refuses to leave, fights back with chainsaw when one attempts to remove them. It's on a situation to situation basis, and hard to explain. If there's a reasonable option to take someone out with disablers or flash and cuff without going too far out of your way in a breakin scenario, or if you can just crit someone, that's fine. If some greyshirt starts slashing you or punching you, flash them and cuff, or just leave them be unless they pull it again, and then beat them. just... It's complicated, but revamping escalation in the way which was suggested in this post is just stupid when you see what shit the tide gets into.

Also, brandishing a stunbaton, if sec is good, does not mean lethal force necessarily. If someone takes out a stunbaton to arrest someone, it does not justify greyshirtmcshitter to whip out a stunbaton on harm intent and beat a sec officer up. You can't tell if someone is on help or harm intent, and seeing as how most things can be used for improvised weapons, and that most real weapons are in armoury, just... leave that be.

Is not letting someone leave an area indefinitely (i.e. trapping them), the same as death? Not if they're not at immediate risk of death, and can still do something. Permabrig, for example, is perfectly valid to be weaponized against criminals instead of execution if a metagang doesnt break in, and brig prison cells exist for a reason. However, outside of escalation, welding Urist Mcgreytide in a fucking maint room is still a dick move if they just punched you once or twice.

Is leaving their body outside of medbay acceptable for getting them cloned?

Case to case. Attempt to bring it to cloning if possible, and prevent looting. Also, for the love of god, if comms are still up, RADIO IT IN.


Is leaving them in a public corridor enough?
No. you're essentially leaving someone to bleed out if nobody cares to look, or for people to presume that the person in crit is valad salad and to beat the shit out of them.

Is critting someone the same as killing them from an escalation POV?
Situation to situation. If someone is crit, but brought to medbay as soon as possible, it makes sense. If someone is crit and left to bleed out in long term, ie, crit someone then fuck off without any effort to get them help, it's essentially killing.

Is revenge acceptable ever? And under what circumstances?

If someone killed you for valids when not valid, or did something extrordinarily shitty, IE, Stole your ID before cloning, Killed you for actually no reason, Made you loose a limb, seriously injured you as an agressor, or they're actively fighting or antagonizing you. This only really applies they're not sec making a rightful arrest, unless it's a "Loot prisoner's gamer gear for themselves not because its contraband but because gamer gear and leave them buckled to the bed and do things which would generally be considered a war crime or human rights violation at best" type arrest and brigging. If sec arrests you over stealing the fire axe from atmos for no fucking reason, don't go to war with sec over the axe, or hunt down the warden after they buckshot you for actively trying to break out and kill officers. If some sec officer genuinely just steals your shit, thats another story.

Is spacing someone ever acceptable?

If someone is too much of a bother to deal with being revived, IE: a violent criminal who was just revived and tried to go kill the warden again, or some shitter who's done something to the point where they should not be revived for crew safety or general sanity, Spacing is an option. so are head spike spears.

Just make sure people actually deserve it first, and don't do it willy nilly. Don't space the clown over lubing the halls.



is hiding a body in maint the same as spacing?

Possibly worse. Spacing means you want to take someone out of the round, but it's honestly pretty overt, and it takes some time to drag a corpse to an airlock. Hiding someone in maint is easier, and still has the effect of making the corpse difficult to recover. Usually if someone intentionally hides a corpse in maint, treat it as if it was spaced, and assume the same intentions as spacing a corpse. Especially if the corpse is stripped, and suit sensors are removed, in which case it might evolve into self antagging or worse.


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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:19 pm #525158

Escalation needs to be replaced with bans for the burnt out.

You won't have to crit a non antag tresspasser to get them to leave, if trespassing with no IC justification is against the rules.

The burnt outs attempt to fish for a reaction would move onto the admins instead of the players.

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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby peoplearestrange » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:28 pm #525161

Shadowflame909 wrote:Escalation needs to be replaced with bans for the burnt out.

You won't have to crit a non antag tresspasser to get them to leave, if trespassing with no IC justification is against the rules.

The burnt outs attempt to fish for a reaction would move onto the admins instead of the players.


This is actually probably close to the truth of the matter and honestly one of the most sensible solutions... Has it really got to that point :/
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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:10 pm #525170

Grazyn wrote:This is going to be an administrative mess because "brandishing" things isn't logged AFAIK so how are admins going to investigate appeals such as "Yes I know logs show me hitting him first with a welder but I only did that because he pulled out a wrench"? Are fingerprints logged or only available in round?
Admins can see exactly when and what you take into your hands and when you put it away, drop it, or throw it. This shows up plainly in damage logs, with timestamps, right alongside attacks and grabs and such, and it's something that is routinely looked at in dealing with tickets since it can demonstrate threatening behavior or attempted theft.

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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby Plapatin » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:27 pm #525191

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:Admins can see exactly when and what you take into your hands and when you put it away, drop it, or throw it. This shows up plainly in damage logs, with timestamps, right alongside attacks and grabs and such, and it's something that is routinely looked at in dealing with tickets since it can demonstrate threatening behavior or attempted theft.

what? when did you ever get that idea? have you even SEEN an attack log?
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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:13 am #525223

Plapatin wrote:
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:Admins can see exactly when and what you take into your hands and when you put it away, drop it, or throw it. This shows up plainly in damage logs, with timestamps, right alongside attacks and grabs and such, and it's something that is routinely looked at in dealing with tickets since it can demonstrate threatening behavior or attempted theft.

what? when did you ever get that idea? have you even SEEN an attack log?
I've seen plenty of attack logs, not on TG proper but on another TG code server.
Guess I was talking out of my ass in part; now that I look, actually kind of astonished pulling out and putting away weapons/items isn't dumped into attack logs on TG, but considering the server I saw this on wasn't exactly filled with groundbreaking coding, I assume it's either a config thing or something that wouldn't be crazy hard to implement either way?
In any case what I said wasn't some astonishing untruth, grabs and thrown objects are shown there.

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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby Qbmax32 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:26 am #525238

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:Admins can see exactly when and what you take into your hands and when you put it away, drop it, or throw it. This shows up plainly in damage logs, with timestamps, right alongside attacks and grabs and such, and it's something that is routinely looked at in dealing with tickets since it can demonstrate threatening behavior or attempted theft.




no you cant lol
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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:19 am #525253

Qbmax32 wrote:
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:Admins can see exactly when and what you take into your hands and when you put it away, drop it, or throw it. This shows up plainly in damage logs, with timestamps, right alongside attacks and grabs and such, and it's something that is routinely looked at in dealing with tickets since it can demonstrate threatening behavior or attempted theft.




no you cant lol
I'm aware of that now, but it was already implemented on an outdated fork of TG code with an admin toolset vastly inferior (old banning panel and stuff) in almost every way to what TG has now, such that I flat out assumed it must be on TG... Dunno what to say besides I saw it and used it, literally never occurred to me that it wasn't a thing on the main code base; every time somebody pulled a weapon or tucked it back into their inventory it showed up on attack logs. If it could be done there, namely Fallout 13, I would think it could certainly be done here. Especially if a change to escalation rules, as is being discussed in this thread, would benefit from or required it.

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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby Screemonster » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:53 am #525259

the more overly specific rules get, the easier they become to toe the exact line of what is by-the-book allowable and scream like a fucking wounded seagull when they get slapped for being a fucking bellend

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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby peoplearestrange » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:46 pm #525269

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
Plapatin wrote:
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:Admins can see exactly when and what you take into your hands and when you put it away, drop it, or throw it. This shows up plainly in damage logs, with timestamps, right alongside attacks and grabs and such, and it's something that is routinely looked at in dealing with tickets since it can demonstrate threatening behavior or attempted theft.

what? when did you ever get that idea? have you even SEEN an attack log?
I've seen plenty of attack logs, not on TG proper but on another TG code server.
Guess I was talking out of my ass in part; now that I look, actually kind of astonished pulling out and putting away weapons/items isn't dumped into attack logs on TG, but considering the server I saw this on wasn't exactly filled with groundbreaking coding, I assume it's either a config thing or something that wouldn't be crazy hard to implement either way?
In any case what I said wasn't some astonishing untruth, grabs and thrown objects are shown there.


If we had a log for every single action not only would the log file be huge but finding anything relevant in it would be near impossible!

You can see a similar thing if the station catches a cold so everyone is sneezing all the time, then whilst you observe turn on ghost emotes (so you hear all emotes on the server). Your chat window will fill up pretty damn quick.
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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby Grazyn » Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:56 pm #525276

Every item in game can be a weapon and we can't reasonably expect logs to track everything. That's why "He was coming right for me and I felt threatened" will never be a solid argument for escalating to murder.

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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby Dr_bee » Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:23 pm #525281

Grazyn wrote:Every item in game can be a weapon and we can't reasonably expect logs to track everything. That's why "He was coming right for me and I felt threatened" will never be a solid argument for escalating to murder.


Which is why lethal force really shouldnt be acceptable except in the case of antagonists. Beating someone into crit should be as far as a conflict should go between non-antags, and if it goes to murder it should net a ban from the round at the very least.

Make murder actually have a consequence and people will stop jumping to violence at the drop of the hat or run around smacking people for the fun of it.

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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby Cobby » Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:32 pm #525300

the consequence for murder is you sometimes get jailed or treated like an antag.

It shouldn't be a ban IF you are the victim of someone being a nuisance (/w proper escalation).

I will say this until the end of time, I would rather endlessly be kill-baited than have people start getting ban baited.
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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby Dr_bee » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:31 pm #525377

Cobby wrote:the consequence for murder is you sometimes get jailed or treated like an antag.


This very rarely happens in the days since escalation became a thing. Murder has become so fucking common that security typically wont arrest someone for just murder. They have more pressing things to worry about, such as overpowered antagonists blowing up the fucking station.

The rare cases it actually DOES happen Ive heard complaints in deadchat from the perpetrator of the murder, thinking that he shouldnt have been executed for it.

Full on fucking murder needs to stop being acceptable reactions to things and the only way to make it actually cost anything in a round based game is to make out of round consequences happen for non-antag murder.

Fear of netting a dayban for killing a non-antag used to make killing someone actually a big deal, as you had to have reasonable proof they were a valid kill. Hence the term validhunting.

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Re: Make Escalation Rules more specific

Postby deedubya » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:49 pm #525379

Cobby wrote:the consequence for murder is you sometimes get jailed or treated like an antag.

It shouldn't be a ban IF you are the victim of someone being a nuisance (/w proper escalation).

I will say this until the end of time, I would rather endlessly be kill-baited than have people start getting ban baited.

Maybe make being an excessive nuisance outside of clown/mime bannable instead of essentially making them valid?
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