Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Ask and discuss policy about game conduct and rules.

Moderator: In-Game Head Admins

CPTANT
 
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby CPTANT » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:50 pm #524864

Currently the relationship community and codebase is a rather weird one. The codebase is deeply connected with tgstation being by far it's primary host and virtually all coders are from the tg community. However at the same time any form of oversight is cut down with arguments of codebase and community being separate.

Why?

What is the benefit of this arrangement to us as a community? Why would we give up our influence over the development of the codebase we use? Why do we have democratic headmin elections to run our servers but not for our headcoders?

I say integrate codebase and community and hold headcoder elections at the same time as headmin elections the development of the game gets accountability to the community.



PostThis post was deleted by peoplearestrange on Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:54 pm.
Reason: Not discussion

User avatar
Lazengann
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:26 pm
Byond Username: Lazengann

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Lazengann » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:41 pm #524874

part of checks and balances

User avatar
Arianya
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:27 am
Byond Username: Arianya

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Arianya » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:50 pm #524875

You may be interested in the following threads which sound like they're relevant to what you're posting about:

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=24525

viewtopic.php?f=33&t=21934

I'm sure people are tired of hearing me say this but I will point out that this isn't something the headmins can technically rule on - at best this is a MSO issue and realistically you'll have to present a better argument then "muh democracy" to convince him to press the nuclear button
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

Source of avatar is here: https://i.imgur.com/hEkADo6.jpg

User avatar
Arianya
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:27 am
Byond Username: Arianya

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Arianya » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:52 pm #524876

On a less procedural note, elections for maintainers or head coders are generally a bad idea - code maintenance may and often will have to make changes that are unpopular due to technical, design or other reasons. Making the position predicated on popular votes creates a vested interest in only making "popular" changes and especially visible popular changes - there's not much stock in fixing bugs or reviewing code if what gets you elected is promising new flashy subsystems or the like.
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

Source of avatar is here: https://i.imgur.com/hEkADo6.jpg

User avatar
skoglol
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:25 am
Byond Username: Skoglol
Github Username: kriskog

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby skoglol » Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:43 pm #524899

To add to what Ari said, most players aren't able to make informed decisions on coding skill, code quality and oversight. Letting the people who actually do decide who is head honcho is the best way to ensure the codebase is in good hands. Managing the codebase requires a fair amount of technical skills as well, its not just a free pass to make all your ideas guy shit happen.

If you disagree with the direction the game is going in, make reasoned arguments about it and dont behave like a fucking ape. In most cases your concerns will be heard, though there is never a guarantee people will agree. The main issue with player feedback imo is how some of you people are completely unwilling to let anything go. Some of you retards are still moaning about removing sleepers, even though it turned out to be a very good change in the end.

User avatar
Grazyn
 
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:01 am
Byond Username: Grazyn

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Grazyn » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:51 am #524984

As long as the project is open source, "community has no influence" is never going to be a real argument because you can just join the project and influence it yourself.

CPTANT
 
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby CPTANT » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:49 pm #525006

Arianya wrote:I'm sure people are tired of hearing me say this but I will point out that this isn't something the headmins can technically rule on - at best this is a MSO issue and realistically you'll have to present a better argument then "muh democracy" to convince him to press the nuclear button


This does not really answer the question why that arrangement is in the communities best interest.

On a less procedural note, elections for maintainers or head coders are generally a bad idea - code maintenance may and often will have to make changes that are unpopular due to technical, design or other reasons. Making the position predicated on popular votes creates a vested interest in only making "popular" changes and especially visible popular changes - there's not much stock in fixing bugs or reviewing code if what gets you elected is promising new flashy subsystems or the like.


So does running a country. People don't vote directly on policies, they vote for someone to give them a mandate for a period of time. "People are too dumb to vote" has always been a bad argument against indirect democracy.

ATHATH
 
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:41 am
Byond Username: ATHATH

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby ATHATH » Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:21 pm #525022

skoglol wrote:To add to what Ari said, most players aren't able to make informed decisions on coding skill, code quality and oversight. Letting the people who actually do decide who is head honcho is the best way to ensure the codebase is in good hands. Managing the codebase requires a fair amount of technical skills as well, its not just a free pass to make all your ideas guy shit happen.

What if we had headcoder elections, but with coders (with at least one merged PR) being the only people allowed to vote in them?

User avatar
Tarchonvaagh
 
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 9:30 pm
Byond Username: Tarchonvaagh

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:24 pm #525033

ATHATH wrote:
skoglol wrote:To add to what Ari said, most players aren't able to make informed decisions on coding skill, code quality and oversight. Letting the people who actually do decide who is head honcho is the best way to ensure the codebase is in good hands. Managing the codebase requires a fair amount of technical skills as well, its not just a free pass to make all your ideas guy shit happen.

What if we had headcoder elections, but with coders (with at least one merged PR) being the only people allowed to vote in them?

Who will define people as coders
"You cannot defeat what lives on in the heart, and soul, of every TG player" - Birdboat
hi im the corvin dude on sybil or terry how's it going
Image

User avatar
imsxz
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:27 pm
Byond Username: Imsxz

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby imsxz » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:10 pm #525045

you dont need a definition for coder, AI. anyone thats ever submitted a PR is what id consider a coder, but literally anyone can make changes. nothing stops anyone from learning byond. buzz terms like it being a "shit" language dont change the fact that you can learn it like any other language. I personally found it a lot simpler to learn byond as my introduction to coding more than basic programs, as i had a working knowledge of the abstract things that the code is supposed to do, basically seeing what in the code causes items to do what they do. if anyone thinks theyd be a better headcoder/design lead than oranges the bogeyman, by all means they're free to start making significant contributions to the codebase, helping people resolve issues with PR's, and displaying a professional skill level at being a developer and team member, then theyd be well on their way to becoming a maintainer, and subsequently headcoder if they're the best of the bunch.

gee whiz it's almost like the maintainers got their roles through being exceptionally good at their jobs or something.
Image

please subscribe to me on youtube

terranaut wrote:i saw this video before it was posted here
you too can be cool like me if you just subscribe to imsxz youtube channel :shades:



Arianya wrote:no, not the snails, shut up imsxz


Nervore wrote:I am going to will you out of existence, Imsxz.
One day, you will just cease to exist.


Image

User avatar
wesoda25
 
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:32 pm
Byond Username: Wesoda25

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby wesoda25 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:38 pm #525051

If you don’t like the direction the server is going, start making prs.

Also, most players have fucking shit ideas for balance and features, so allowing them to dictate what happens is stupid. Coder elections would be a great way to land incompetent people in a position of power. Now, if say the previous head coder, or host, got to pick candidates from which the community would vote from, it might be an idea.
Spoiler:
ImageImageImageImageImage

CPTANT
 
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby CPTANT » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:08 pm #525129

wesoda25 wrote:Also, most players have fucking shit ideas for balance and features, so allowing them to dictate what happens is stupid. Coder elections would be a great way to land incompetent people in a position of power. Now, if say the previous head coder, or host, got to pick candidates from which the community would vote from, it might be an idea.


Ohw please, people have been saying the same thing about democracies for ages and they consistently outperform autocracies. Having a mandate actually allows coders to implement larger changes without having to justify every individual step.

User avatar
deedubya
 
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:05 am
Location: shitting up your thread
Byond Username: Deedubya

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby deedubya » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:13 pm #525130

There's a pretty simple change to solve this issue, but it'll require at least 2/3 headmins to present the case to MSO for it to actually happen, because the codebase is currently immune to any sort of community or administrative intervention.
collector of salt, hater of the tide
oranges wrote:honestly holy shit deedubs you're a dent head

wesoda25 wrote:deedub is one of the people that makes me wish i could block users on forums

IkeTG wrote:every post from deedubya is worrying behavior

Super Aggro Crag wrote:you're a poo head!!!!!

TheMythicGhost wrote:You're a moron, but that's really nothing new since you're Deedubya, and really at this point I'm just playing an instrument by speaking since your head is so goddamn empty these words are resonating as they pass through.

Image

User avatar
Grazyn
 
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:01 am
Byond Username: Grazyn

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Grazyn » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:30 pm #525132

ATHATH wrote:
skoglol wrote:To add to what Ari said, most players aren't able to make informed decisions on coding skill, code quality and oversight. Letting the people who actually do decide who is head honcho is the best way to ensure the codebase is in good hands. Managing the codebase requires a fair amount of technical skills as well, its not just a free pass to make all your ideas guy shit happen.

What if we had headcoder elections, but with coders (with at least one merged PR) being the only people allowed to vote in them?

From what I understand coders actually like Oranges as head honcho so maybe don't try to fix what isn't broken?

CPTANT
 
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby CPTANT » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:57 pm #525136

Grazyn wrote:From what I understand coders actually like Oranges as head honcho so maybe don't try to fix what isn't broken?


That can easily be because of self selection. People who don't like whomever is headcoder are less likely to spend significant amount of time working on a codebase. Also who wants to risk offending the guy in charge when he isn't accountable to anyone and can just reject whatever he wants out of spite?

User avatar
Grazyn
 
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:01 am
Byond Username: Grazyn

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Grazyn » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:03 pm #525138

CPTANT wrote:
Grazyn wrote:From what I understand coders actually like Oranges as head honcho so maybe don't try to fix what isn't broken?


That can easily be because of self selection. People who don't like whomever is headcoder are less likely to spend significant amount of time working on a codebase. Also who wants to risk offending the guy in charge when he isn't accountable to anyone and can just reject whatever he wants out of spite?

Yeah but there are a lot of coders and if that really was the case you'd see a much more vocal opposition to oranges here and elsewhere.

User avatar
Arianya
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:27 am
Byond Username: Arianya

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Arianya » Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:44 pm #525176

At risk of devolving into political philosophy debate - I'll point out that just going "muh democracy" is not a good argument, especially when you're missing a big aspect of democracy - informed voting. If the average player cannot reasonably be expected to know the intricacies of code maintenance or game design it's not fair to them or to the codebase to expect them to make an informed choice of who should be headcoder/maintainer. It's the same reason why elected positions that are overly technical in nature feature horrific turnout numbers and generally speaking awful candidate selection.

This does not really answer the question why that arrangement is in the communities best interest.


Because MSO thinks so and because he owns/leases the hardware that runs the code. I'm just saying if your sole argument is "democracy iz gud" then you're unlikely to make headway with MSO - especially since you're fighting like 6 years of inertia of the current system to suggest yours is better.

So does running a country. People don't vote directly on policies, they vote for someone to give them a mandate for a period of time. "People are too dumb to vote" has always been a bad argument against indirect democracy.


a) People absolutely vote on policies - what do you think manifestos are? This is a really weird comment of yours.
b) This is why running a country is done by both elected representatives (like say, headmins) and unelected bureaucrats (like say, code maintainers)

Frankly this thread isn't very well posited. You're suggesting a foundational change to the community and you don't even justify why such a change is required - just an appeal to democracy - presumably because the reason is a thinly veiled "i don't like oranges' decisions".
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

Source of avatar is here: https://i.imgur.com/hEkADo6.jpg

User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Cobby » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:36 pm #525193

If you really don't contribute because you don't like oranges you're probably weren't going to contribute to begin with.

Considering the reach of the codebase vs. what oranges does administratively within the code, I would safely say that's just an excuse to talk without walk.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current

CPTANT
 
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby CPTANT » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:07 pm #525204

At risk of devolving into political philosophy debate - I'll point out that just going "muh democracy" is not a good argument, especially when you're missing a big aspect of democracy - informed voting. If the average player cannot reasonably be expected to know the intricacies of code maintenance or game design it's not fair to them or to the codebase to expect them to make an informed choice of who should be headcoder/maintainer. It's the same reason why elected positions that are overly technical in nature feature horrific turnout numbers and generally speaking awful candidate selection.


A large part of the community is plenty active on the feedback forums and github. It is also not like the current design philosophy much surpasses "if it's cool, bolt it on". The idea that the current approach is some super well thought out technocratic process while community is to incompetent to determine the direction of game design they want is pretty laughable.

b) This is why running a country is done by both elected representatives (like say, headmins) and unelected bureaucrats (like say, code maintainers)


Since the code base is officially separate from the playerbase, the elected representatives you give as an example don't have actual power in the area we are discussing, code development has no official accountability. Also the fact that code maintainers exist wouldn't change in the first place.


a) People absolutely vote on policies - what do you think manifestos are? This is a really weird comment of yours.


There is a layer of indirect democracy between this, people don't directly vote unless its referenda.

Frankly this thread isn't very well posited. You're suggesting a foundational change to the community and you don't even justify why such a change is required - just an appeal to democracy - presumably because the reason is a thinly veiled "i don't like oranges' decisions".


Your words and frankly a complete cop out to this debate. It does not matter if oranges is the one that gets elected because what is important is accountability to the community and not specific candidates.

User avatar
Arianya
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:27 am
Byond Username: Arianya

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Arianya » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:15 pm #525209

CPTANT wrote:A large part of the community is plenty active on the feedback forums and github. It is also not like the current design philosophy much surpasses "if it's cool, bolt it on". The idea that the current approach is some super well thought out technocratic process while community is to incompetent to determine the direction of game design they want is pretty laughable.

Since the code base is officially separate from the playerbase, the elected representatives you give as an example don't have actual power in the area we are discussing, code development has no official accountability. Also the fact that code maintainers exist wouldn't change in the first place.

There is a layer of indirect democracy between this, people don't directly vote unless its referenda.

Your words and frankly a complete cop out to this debate. It does not matter if oranges is the one that gets elected because what is important is accountability to the community and not specific candidates.


a) You're vastly over-estimating engagement - players who interact with the community outside of the byond server itself are the exception, not the rule. And unlike real life, there's no media (good or bad) helping people to be aware of what's happening outside of the game in easily digestible format.

b) This really shows you don't understand the power balance between the 3 pillars of /tg/'s structure or what powers MSO and the headmins have to influence the codebase while also giving them autonomy to develop.

c) Yes and we're now back round at the circle where the layer of indirect democracy you're proposing doesn't share priorities with what code maintenance needs/wants.

d) Your response is effectively side-stepping actual engaging with the points so that you can make cheap shots about "laughable" and "cop-outs". Which is a shame but atleast when this thread goes nowhere you won't have the excuse that no one told you why.
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

Source of avatar is here: https://i.imgur.com/hEkADo6.jpg

User avatar
Lazengann
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:26 pm
Byond Username: Lazengann

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Lazengann » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:16 pm #525210

They're already accountable to the community, if they shit things up too much nobody will play on their codebase and they'd be coding a dead project

User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Cobby » Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:51 am #525243

Not all people who contribute to the TG codebase interact with TG on any other medium since it's the source for downstream communities.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current

User avatar
deedubya
 
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:05 am
Location: shitting up your thread
Byond Username: Deedubya

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby deedubya » Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:58 am #525247

Lazengann wrote:They're already accountable to the community, if they shit things up too much nobody will play on their codebase and they'd be coding a dead project

Considering how many people have abandoned ship over the past few months, it looks like the headcoders are getting their wish.
collector of salt, hater of the tide
oranges wrote:honestly holy shit deedubs you're a dent head

wesoda25 wrote:deedub is one of the people that makes me wish i could block users on forums

IkeTG wrote:every post from deedubya is worrying behavior

Super Aggro Crag wrote:you're a poo head!!!!!

TheMythicGhost wrote:You're a moron, but that's really nothing new since you're Deedubya, and really at this point I'm just playing an instrument by speaking since your head is so goddamn empty these words are resonating as they pass through.

Image

CPTANT
 
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby CPTANT » Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:30 am #525262

Arianya wrote:
CPTANT wrote:A large part of the community is plenty active on the feedback forums and github. It is also not like the current design philosophy much surpasses "if it's cool, bolt it on". The idea that the current approach is some super well thought out technocratic process while community is to incompetent to determine the direction of game design they want is pretty laughable.

Since the code base is officially separate from the playerbase, the elected representatives you give as an example don't have actual power in the area we are discussing, code development has no official accountability. Also the fact that code maintainers exist wouldn't change in the first place.

There is a layer of indirect democracy between this, people don't directly vote unless its referenda.

Your words and frankly a complete cop out to this debate. It does not matter if oranges is the one that gets elected because what is important is accountability to the community and not specific candidates.


a) You're vastly over-estimating engagement - players who interact with the community outside of the byond server itself are the exception, not the rule. And unlike real life, there's no media (good or bad) helping people to be aware of what's happening outside of the game in easily digestible format.

b) This really shows you don't understand the power balance between the 3 pillars of /tg/'s structure or what powers MSO and the headmins have to influence the codebase while also giving them autonomy to develop.

c) Yes and we're now back round at the circle where the layer of indirect democracy you're proposing doesn't share priorities with what code maintenance needs/wants.



We have this forum and in game announcements, which is considered enough for headmin elections so should be considered enough for headcoder election. Also like I said before, picking a headcoder is not quantum mechanics and our current development process isn't structured in the first place. Headmin have influence but not power, there is nothing that can be done if the person with actual power does not like what is being said. The headcoder, elected or not is always going to be the one with the ultimate say in things.

>d) Your response is effectively side-stepping actual engaging with the points so that you can make cheap shots about "laughable" and "cop-outs". Which is a shame but atleast when this thread goes nowhere you won't have the excuse that no one told you why.

I am not sidestepping anyway. People keep trying to bring the issue back to the current headcoder, while the problem is structural. Lack of accountability is always a perversive feature. "Take it or leave it" is not really a long term solution with the best outcome.

User avatar
actioninja
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:40 am
Location: comatose
Byond Username: Actioninja

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby actioninja » Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:29 pm #525267

tl;dr:
"This can't be done in good faith for these reasons"
"But democracy"
"This can't be done in good faith for these reason"
"But democracy"
...

See you all again in a month or two when this thread is made again

CPTANT
 
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby CPTANT » Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:08 pm #525272

actioninja wrote:tl;dr:
"This can't be done in good faith for these reasons"
"But democracy"
"This can't be done in good faith for these reason"
"But democracy"
...

See you all again in a month or two when this thread is made again


"Here are the reasons why a democratic headcoder is better"
"but muh people too stupid"
"Here are the reasons why a democratic headcoder is better"
"but muh people too stupid"

Did that add anything to the conversation? No, then why post it.

User avatar
Gigapuddi420
 
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 8:08 am
Location: Dorms
Byond Username: Gigapuddi420

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Gigapuddi420 » Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:39 pm #525274

CPTANT wrote:I am not sidestepping anyway. People keep trying to bring the issue back to the current headcoder, while the problem is structural. Lack of accountability is always a perversive feature. "Take it or leave it" is not really a long term solution with the best outcome.

The reason people keep calling you out on this is because you've only offered a single line on why headcoder elections would be a improvement and everything else has been completely insubstantial telling everyone else they are wrong. Before Ari started seriously replying you didn't even offer any actual reasoning. Convincing the thread on why your idea is better for the community is going to be a lot easier then convincing MSO and the years of momentum behind the system.

Personally I prefer the idea of successive headcoders who, alongside the host, pick their successors. It seems better for long term projects and fixes without having to worry about the short term pain from what is often a irrational playerbase. God the community treats some of our regular coders like shit over honest attempts to improve the game and we've lost countless good guys over it. Adding a vote every six months for the most popular coder sounds like a disaster.
Imperfect catgirl playing a imperfect game.
Image

CPTANT
 
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby CPTANT » Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:55 pm #525275

Gigapuddi420 wrote:
CPTANT wrote:I am not sidestepping anyway. People keep trying to bring the issue back to the current headcoder, while the problem is structural. Lack of accountability is always a perversive feature. "Take it or leave it" is not really a long term solution with the best outcome.

The reason people keep calling you out on this is because you've only offered a single line on why headcoder elections would be a improvement and everything else has been completely insubstantial telling everyone else they are wrong. Before Ari started seriously replying you didn't even offer any actual reasoning. Convincing the thread on why your idea is better for the community is going to be a lot easier then convincing MSO and the years of momentum behind the system.

Personally I prefer the idea of successive headcoders who, alongside the host, pick their successors. It seems better for long term projects and fixes without having to worry about the short term pain from what is often a irrational playerbase. God the community treats some of our regular coders like shit over honest attempts to improve the game and we've lost countless good guys over it. Adding a vote every six months for the most popular coder sounds like a disaster.


It's probably because I first stated this topic as a question.

Anyway, why elected headcoders would be better:


-Direction of code development is more in line with community wishes.
-Increased accountability reduces perversive incentive to misuse power.
-Provides an alternative for love it or leave it approach to conflict.
-Elected head coders would actually be a step up in terms of having to justify every single change to the community. They get the backing to implement their vision during the time they are active and can be evaluated after their term instead of during every PR.

CPTANT
 
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby CPTANT » Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:56 pm #525277

Gigapuddi420 wrote:
CPTANT wrote:I am not sidestepping anyway. People keep trying to bring the issue back to the current headcoder, while the problem is structural. Lack of accountability is always a perversive feature. "Take it or leave it" is not really a long term solution with the best outcome.

The reason people keep calling you out on this is because you've only offered a single line on why headcoder elections would be a improvement and everything else has been completely insubstantial telling everyone else they are wrong. Before Ari started seriously replying you didn't even offer any actual reasoning. Convincing the thread on why your idea is better for the community is going to be a lot easier then convincing MSO and the years of momentum behind the system.

Personally I prefer the idea of successive headcoders who, alongside the host, pick their successors. It seems better for long term projects and fixes without having to worry about the short term pain from what is often a irrational playerbase. God the community treats some of our regular coders like shit over honest attempts to improve the game and we've lost countless good guys over it. Adding a vote every six months for the most popular coder sounds like a disaster.


It's probably because I first stated this topic as a question.

Anyway, why elected headcoders would be better:


-Direction of code development is more in line with community wishes.
-Increased accountability reduces perversive incentive to misuse power.
-Provides an alternative for love it or leave it approach to conflict.
-Elected head coders would actually be a step up in terms of having to justify every single change to the community. They get the backing to implement their vision during the time they are active and can be evaluated after their term instead of during every PR.

User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Cobby » Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:20 pm #525298

deedubya wrote:
Lazengann wrote:They're already accountable to the community, if they shit things up too much nobody will play on their codebase and they'd be coding a dead project

Considering how many people have abandoned ship over the past few months, it looks like the headcoders are getting their wish.


Late 2019 isn't the only time people have stopped playing the game, anon.

You're playing a game that has been up since the start of the century.
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current

Takov
 
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:11 pm
Byond Username: Takov

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Takov » Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:35 am #525949

Cobby wrote:
deedubya wrote:
Lazengann wrote:They're already accountable to the community, if they shit things up too much nobody will play on their codebase and they'd be coding a dead project

Considering how many people have abandoned ship over the past few months, it looks like the headcoders are getting their wish.


Late 2019 isn't the only time people have stopped playing the game, anon.

You're playing a game that has been up since the start of the century.


Your very changes have made more than a few people leave TG, and you barely ever fucking play at all. You and your two fuckbuddies can sidestep and go "trolololo" like 12-year olds all you want, the community by and large hates certain changes you've made and more than a few have stopped playing here as a result. OP is asking for a reevaluation because you and the other maintainers have no oversight and ignore pretty much everything said outside of your INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower.
But whatever, I don't think you even care if the servers become empty.

User avatar
actioninja
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:40 am
Location: comatose
Byond Username: Actioninja

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby actioninja » Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:57 am #525951

This post is Epic Gamer approved.

User avatar
Akrilla
 
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 9:24 am
Byond Username: Akrilla
Github Username: Akrilla

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Akrilla » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:25 am #525959

I don't like change, and that means maintainers and coders bad /thread

Anyone can contribute, and quality control is done by maintainers, which are chosen for being trusted to make decisions that are overall good for the codebase. If you don't like tg, go to one of its downstream servers.

User avatar
Cobby
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:19 pm
Byond Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobby
Github Username: ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Cobby » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:27 pm #526098

Takov wrote:Your very changes have made more than a few people leave TG, and you barely ever fucking play at all. You and your two fuckbuddies can sidestep and go "trolololo" like 12-year olds all you want, the community by and large hates certain changes you've made and more than a few have stopped playing here as a result. OP is asking for a reevaluation because you and the other maintainers have no oversight and ignore pretty much everything said outside of your INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower.
But whatever, I don't think you even care if the servers become empty.


I happily respond to valid feedback and have made changes based on such. These conversations happened on this very platform and/or discord, both of which are public viewing and contributing. I've also had to basically say "too bad" on some occasions because some people disagree conceptually. If you want to challenge that decision you can talk with it about oranges, try to come up with a compromise that i'm satisfied with, or deal with it (secret 4th option: contribute and become a maintainer yourself).

I'll be honest and say If you start off with ad hom or just calling contributions "shit" without placing your more tangible opinions on the proper platforms (no, OOC/reddit is not one), I do tune you out. If that's your behavior, you're correct: I don't care if you leave or not because of my changes or anyone else's***.

*** assuming good faith, lizard PRer and circuit PRer can burn in githell.

In short, I will happily entertain a good-willed discussion with you on the aforementioned platforms if you're legitimately interested in improving the game, and most other people in the coder realm (certainly maintainers) will as well. If you're just going to bitch in every place but the platforms where your thoughts about the features/game from a code POV matter (which leads me to believe your feedback wasn't good-willed to begin with), I'm not sure why it's on the maintainer end to bend (or in this situation MSO to force the maintainers to bend).
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current

4dplanner
 
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:51 am
Byond Username: 4DPlanner
Github Username: 4dplanner

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby 4dplanner » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:00 am #526134

Imagine if your doctor was elected from the general population by people who were angry at the old doctor's diagnoses

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby oranges » Wed Nov 27, 2019 3:10 am #526161

Takov wrote:
Cobby wrote:
deedubya wrote:
Lazengann wrote:They're already accountable to the community, if they shit things up too much nobody will play on their codebase and they'd be coding a dead project

Considering how many people have abandoned ship over the past few months, it looks like the headcoders are getting their wish.


Late 2019 isn't the only time people have stopped playing the game, anon.

You're playing a game that has been up since the start of the century.


Your very changes have made more than a few people leave TG, and you barely ever fucking play at all. You and your two fuckbuddies can sidestep and go "trolololo" like 12-year olds all you want, the community by and large hates certain changes you've made and more than a few have stopped playing here as a result. OP is asking for a reevaluation because you and the other maintainers have no oversight and ignore pretty much everything said outside of your INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower.
But whatever, I don't think you even care if the servers become empty.


well don't let the door hit you on the way out, I haven't seen any evidence to suggest we're bleeding players in any significant numbers. Sorry that your closed circle group of friends doesn't count as all of /tg/ station I guess.

The arguments made here about coders not being accountable to anyone is only true if you believe that I don't take the pulse of the community or discuss things with the admin team, given that I have the second highest post rate on the forum and the most posts in discord, I fail to see how that is true.

Just because I don't listen to people on every single PR, doesn't mean I'm not taking into account the player base opinion, If you really wanted to do the math you'd find the vast majority of PR's are merged with popular support because they're non offensive or not particularly important.

It's only where I break from popular opinion for the betterment of the game in my own opinion that people even care in the first place, and then they extrapolate this to "Well he must ignore the community in every aspect". Not only is it wrong, but it's downright deceitful. Lets not even begin to cover the fact that the vast majority of so called unpopular changes are actually considered just fine now that they're in the past and that much of the reactionary response to most changes is just that, reactionary.

Don't mistake and conflate me not taking *your or your two-three friends* complaint seriously as as me *not listening to the community*
Image

Takov
 
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:11 pm
Byond Username: Takov

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Takov » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:58 pm #526288

oranges wrote:
Takov wrote:
Cobby wrote:
deedubya wrote:
Lazengann wrote:They're already accountable to the community, if they shit things up too much nobody will play on their codebase and they'd be coding a dead project

Considering how many people have abandoned ship over the past few months, it looks like the headcoders are getting their wish.


Late 2019 isn't the only time people have stopped playing the game, anon.

You're playing a game that has been up since the start of the century.


Your very changes have made more than a few people leave TG, and you barely ever fucking play at all. You and your two fuckbuddies can sidestep and go "trolololo" like 12-year olds all you want, the community by and large hates certain changes you've made and more than a few have stopped playing here as a result. OP is asking for a reevaluation because you and the other maintainers have no oversight and ignore pretty much everything said outside of your INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower.
But whatever, I don't think you even care if the servers become empty.


well don't let the door hit you on the way out, I haven't seen any evidence to suggest we're bleeding players in any significant numbers. Sorry that your closed circle group of friends doesn't count as all of /tg/ station I guess.

The arguments made here about coders not being accountable to anyone is only true if you believe that I don't take the pulse of the community or discuss things with the admin team, given that I have the second highest post rate on the forum and the most posts in discord, I fail to see how that is true.

Just because I don't listen to people on every single PR, doesn't mean I'm not taking into account the player base opinion, If you really wanted to do the math you'd find the vast majority of PR's are merged with popular support because they're non offensive or not particularly important.

It's only where I break from popular opinion for the betterment of the game in my own opinion that people even care in the first place, and then they extrapolate this to "Well he must ignore the community in every aspect". Not only is it wrong, but it's downright deceitful. Lets not even begin to cover the fact that the vast majority of so called unpopular changes are actually considered just fine now that they're in the past and that much of the reactionary response to most changes is just that, reactionary.

Don't mistake and conflate me not taking *your or your two-three friends* complaint seriously as as me *not listening to the community*


Yeah, wanting cloning eventually gone is good for the community right? And closed circle? Way to reveal you really don't know.
I've seen countless people mock and voice their dislike for CobbyChem. I once got most people in a round hating on NT's retarded new medical supplier. But whatever, keep acting like it's a minority when you barely even play. Majority of the community doesn't even use the forums. It's honestly not hard to see why.

Cobby wrote:
Takov wrote:Your very changes have made more than a few people leave TG, and you barely ever fucking play at all. You and your two fuckbuddies can sidestep and go "trolololo" like 12-year olds all you want, the community by and large hates certain changes you've made and more than a few have stopped playing here as a result. OP is asking for a reevaluation because you and the other maintainers have no oversight and ignore pretty much everything said outside of your INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower.
But whatever, I don't think you even care if the servers become empty.


I happily respond to valid feedback and have made changes based on such. These conversations happened on this very platform and/or discord, both of which are public viewing and contributing. I've also had to basically say "too bad" on some occasions because some people disagree conceptually. If you want to challenge that decision you can talk with it about oranges, try to come up with a compromise that i'm satisfied with, or deal with it (secret 4th option: contribute and become a maintainer yourself).

I'll be honest and say If you start off with ad hom or just calling contributions "shit" without placing your more tangible opinions on the proper platforms (no, OOC/reddit is not one), I do tune you out. If that's your behavior, you're correct: I don't care if you leave or not because of my changes or anyone else's***.

*** assuming good faith, lizard PRer and circuit PRer can burn in githell.

In short, I will happily entertain a good-willed discussion with you on the aforementioned platforms if you're legitimately interested in improving the game, and most other people in the coder realm (certainly maintainers) will as well. If you're just going to bitch in every place but the platforms where your thoughts about the features/game from a code POV matter (which leads me to believe your feedback wasn't good-willed to begin with), I'm not sure why it's on the maintainer end to bend (or in this situation MSO to force the maintainers to bend).


Is the completely and utter removal of CobbyChem not qualify as "good will" despite how much the community hates it? Many, many people have voiced their desire for CobbyChem to be reverted entirely. On one of the only times I ever saw you in a server once you claimed in OOC the point of it was to nerf "invisible armor" which is laughable and demonstrates a lack of in-game knowledge.
I didn't even start off with an ad hominem or say the word "shit".

Also, I said nothing about myself leaving yet both of you immediately jump to that conclusion, both of you also in fact resorted to ad hominem as well in addition to strawmanning. If you're going to talk fallacies and immediately resort to them, you can kindly fuck off.

User avatar
deedubya
 
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:05 am
Location: shitting up your thread
Byond Username: Deedubya

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby deedubya » Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:01 am #526330

Takov wrote:
oranges wrote:
Takov wrote:
Cobby wrote:
deedubya wrote:
Lazengann wrote:They're already accountable to the community, if they shit things up too much nobody will play on their codebase and they'd be coding a dead project

Considering how many people have abandoned ship over the past few months, it looks like the headcoders are getting their wish.


Late 2019 isn't the only time people have stopped playing the game, anon.

You're playing a game that has been up since the start of the century.


Your very changes have made more than a few people leave TG, and you barely ever fucking play at all. You and your two fuckbuddies can sidestep and go "trolololo" like 12-year olds all you want, the community by and large hates certain changes you've made and more than a few have stopped playing here as a result. OP is asking for a reevaluation because you and the other maintainers have no oversight and ignore pretty much everything said outside of your INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower.
But whatever, I don't think you even care if the servers become empty.


well don't let the door hit you on the way out, I haven't seen any evidence to suggest we're bleeding players in any significant numbers. Sorry that your closed circle group of friends doesn't count as all of /tg/ station I guess.

The arguments made here about coders not being accountable to anyone is only true if you believe that I don't take the pulse of the community or discuss things with the admin team, given that I have the second highest post rate on the forum and the most posts in discord, I fail to see how that is true.

Just because I don't listen to people on every single PR, doesn't mean I'm not taking into account the player base opinion, If you really wanted to do the math you'd find the vast majority of PR's are merged with popular support because they're non offensive or not particularly important.

It's only where I break from popular opinion for the betterment of the game in my own opinion that people even care in the first place, and then they extrapolate this to "Well he must ignore the community in every aspect". Not only is it wrong, but it's downright deceitful. Lets not even begin to cover the fact that the vast majority of so called unpopular changes are actually considered just fine now that they're in the past and that much of the reactionary response to most changes is just that, reactionary.

Don't mistake and conflate me not taking *your or your two-three friends* complaint seriously as as me *not listening to the community*


Yeah, wanting cloning eventually gone is good for the community right? And closed circle? Way to reveal you really don't know.
I've seen countless people mock and voice their dislike for CobbyChem. I once got most people in a round hating on NT's retarded new medical supplier. But whatever, keep acting like it's a minority when you barely even play. Majority of the community doesn't even use the forums. It's honestly not hard to see why.

Cobby wrote:
Takov wrote:Your very changes have made more than a few people leave TG, and you barely ever fucking play at all. You and your two fuckbuddies can sidestep and go "trolololo" like 12-year olds all you want, the community by and large hates certain changes you've made and more than a few have stopped playing here as a result. OP is asking for a reevaluation because you and the other maintainers have no oversight and ignore pretty much everything said outside of your INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS tower.
But whatever, I don't think you even care if the servers become empty.


I happily respond to valid feedback and have made changes based on such. These conversations happened on this very platform and/or discord, both of which are public viewing and contributing. I've also had to basically say "too bad" on some occasions because some people disagree conceptually. If you want to challenge that decision you can talk with it about oranges, try to come up with a compromise that i'm satisfied with, or deal with it (secret 4th option: contribute and become a maintainer yourself).

I'll be honest and say If you start off with ad hom or just calling contributions "shit" without placing your more tangible opinions on the proper platforms (no, OOC/reddit is not one), I do tune you out. If that's your behavior, you're correct: I don't care if you leave or not because of my changes or anyone else's***.

*** assuming good faith, lizard PRer and circuit PRer can burn in githell.

In short, I will happily entertain a good-willed discussion with you on the aforementioned platforms if you're legitimately interested in improving the game, and most other people in the coder realm (certainly maintainers) will as well. If you're just going to bitch in every place but the platforms where your thoughts about the features/game from a code POV matter (which leads me to believe your feedback wasn't good-willed to begin with), I'm not sure why it's on the maintainer end to bend (or in this situation MSO to force the maintainers to bend).


Is the completely and utter removal of CobbyChem not qualify as "good will" despite how much the community hates it? Many, many people have voiced their desire for CobbyChem to be reverted entirely. On one of the only times I ever saw you in a server once you claimed in OOC the point of it was to nerf "invisible armor" which is laughable and demonstrates a lack of in-game knowledge.
I didn't even start off with an ad hominem or say the word "shit".

Also, I said nothing about myself leaving yet both of you immediately jump to that conclusion, both of you also in fact resorted to ad hominem as well in addition to strawmanning. If you're going to talk fallacies and immediately resort to them, you can kindly fuck off.

I'm just quoting this post to make an example of how fucking obnoxious you quoting multiple long ass quote chains is. Look at this garbage. Snip that shit.
collector of salt, hater of the tide
oranges wrote:honestly holy shit deedubs you're a dent head

wesoda25 wrote:deedub is one of the people that makes me wish i could block users on forums

IkeTG wrote:every post from deedubya is worrying behavior

Super Aggro Crag wrote:you're a poo head!!!!!

TheMythicGhost wrote:You're a moron, but that's really nothing new since you're Deedubya, and really at this point I'm just playing an instrument by speaking since your head is so goddamn empty these words are resonating as they pass through.

Image

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby oranges » Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:13 am #526333

Takov wrote:Yeah, wanting cloning eventually gone is good for the community right?

That is my opinion yes, thank you for repeating it
Takov wrote:And closed circle? Way to reveal you really don't know.

Yes you and the people you are talking about are a small subsection of the community
Takov wrote:I've seen countless people mock and voice their dislike for CobbyChem. I once got most people in a round hating on NT's retarded new medical supplier. But whatever, keep acting like it's a minority when you barely even play. Majority of the community doesn't even use the forums. It's honestly not hard to see why.

You conveniently skipped over discord, and you're still focusing on an individual instance.

Takov wrote:Also, I said nothing about myself leaving yet both of you immediately jump to that conclusion, both of you also in fact resorted to ad hominem as well in addition to strawmanning. If you're going to talk fallacies and immediately resort to them, you can kindly fuck off.

and this is the closest you have also gotten to self awareness
Image

User avatar
Lazengann
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:26 pm
Byond Username: Lazengann

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Lazengann » Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:40 am #526342

I shit talked the movement speed nerfs when they happened but the game is definitely better for it now. I think few people would say the game was better when everyone ran like sonic.

4dplanner
 
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:51 am
Byond Username: 4DPlanner
Github Username: 4dplanner

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby 4dplanner » Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:24 pm #526391

Lazengann wrote:I shit talked the movement speed nerfs when they happened but the game is definitely better for it now. I think few people would say the game was better when everyone ran like sonic.


That was config, right?

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby oranges » Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:05 pm #526432

yeah nothing to do with coders
Image

User avatar
MisterPerson
Board Moderator
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:26 pm
Byond Username: MisterPerson

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby MisterPerson » Fri Nov 29, 2019 5:24 pm #526555

Personally I've long been in favor of an elected position to serve as community liaison of design to the code project aka Chief Idea Guy. The position would have no actual authority but should hopefully give the community a bit of a say on what they want. Headmins kind of do that right now but they already wear many hats and specifically like to stay away from code matters unless it affects them.

CPTANT wrote:
Grazyn wrote:From what I understand coders actually like Oranges as head honcho so maybe don't try to fix what isn't broken?


That can easily be because of self selection. People who don't like whomever is headcoder are less likely to spend significant amount of time working on a codebase. Also who wants to risk offending the guy in charge when he isn't accountable to anyone and can just reject whatever he wants out of spite?


Lemme tell you a story about /tg/station circa 2013. The headcoder "trifecta" at the time was Numbers (or EuroNumbers), muskets, and some third person who hadn't been seen in months. Muskets showed up once a week or so, so Numbers was de facto in charge (Numbers and muskets agreed with each other on everything anyway). For reasons I won't get into, nobody liked Numbers. One day Cheridan PM's me asking my opinion on Numbers and later publicly says something to the tune of 7/8 of the people he talked to said they were sick of Number's shit. By that time the next day, we had new headcoders. Keep in mind that trifecta had been in charge for like a year and a half at least by that point. So yes, people will absolutely voluntarily stick around under leadership they don't like.

On the other hand, if oranges was unliked or overreaching vis a vie the project team, we'd tell him to get fucked. Besides that's our problem, not yours.

Gigapuddi420 wrote:Personally I prefer the idea of successive headcoders who, alongside the host, pick their successors. It seems better for long term projects and fixes without having to worry about the short term pain from what is often a irrational playerbase.


This is actually how it used to be. Fun fact: as he was being shown the door, Numbers picked me as a replacement. Which was probably meant an f u to everyone else but whatever.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums.

Why realism is stupid:
Spoiler:
Wiz, the project lead of Europa Universalis IV:

Immersion/flavor is playing a WW2 shooter and using a mosin-nagant instead of a laser gun - this is important.

Realism is playing a WW2 shooter and having to spend 2 months in hospital everytime you get shot - stupid and detrimental to gameplay. Nobody actually wants a realistic game, which is why realism arguments are so selectively used.
Source: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/ind ... t-19679470

User avatar
Lazengann
In-Game Admin
 
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:26 pm
Byond Username: Lazengann

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Lazengann » Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:08 pm #526560

oranges wrote:yeah nothing to do with coders

My bad I thought you spearheaded one of those

User avatar
Arianya
In-Game Game Master
 
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:27 am
Byond Username: Arianya

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby Arianya » Sat Nov 30, 2019 8:21 pm #526714

MisterPerson wrote:
Gigapuddi420 wrote:Personally I prefer the idea of successive headcoders who, alongside the host, pick their successors. It seems better for long term projects and fixes without having to worry about the short term pain from what is often a irrational playerbase.


This is actually how it used to be. Fun fact: as he was being shown the door, Numbers picked me as a replacement. Which was probably meant an f u to everyone else but whatever.


So far as I'm aware it's how it still is - Cheridan picked Kor, Kor picked oranges/cyberboss. I'm not sure how it passed from cyberboss to ninjanomnom specifically, but regardless there's no explicit change in the system.
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

Source of avatar is here: https://i.imgur.com/hEkADo6.jpg

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: Re-evaluate the relation between community and codebase

Postby oranges » Sat Nov 30, 2019 11:49 pm #526760

cyberboss was voted out by the maintainers after I raised their inactivity, ninja took over to ensure we have two people on the github and are not a single point of failure.
Image


Return to Policy Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users