are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

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zero the big boy
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are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

Postby zero the big boy » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:44 pm #525052

If a malfunctional AI has a cyborg, and that cyborg is desynced manually it'll still have the "Accomplish your AI's objectives at all costs" law, but it has no AI. Nobody seems to know wether or not they're supposed to ignore it since they have no AI and or go and murderbone freely because they have t he funny law zero.

Personally I think a cyborg should follow it's on "AI" and just move forward onto it's current lawset I.E. it's current objective is to follow asimov and not murder bone.



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Re: are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

Postby HommandoSA » Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:46 pm #525053

For the sake of avoiding confusion I'd say if they have the malf law then they are still antag, they just don't have to pay attention to the AI anymore.

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Re: are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

Postby Gigapuddi420 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:47 am #525064

HommandoSA wrote:For the sake of avoiding confusion I'd say if they have the malf law then they are still antag, they just don't have to pay attention to the AI anymore.

Would certainly be less confusing. It's one of those situations where if a player ahelps you to ask your can rule whatever way makes sense to you, otherwise I wouldn't blame players for the confusion.
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Re: are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

Postby bobbahbrown » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:51 am #525067

if they have the law i see no reason why they shouldn't follow it
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Re: are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

Postby carshalash » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:53 am #525075

You have no AI commanding you, the law applies to nothing because of it. You don't get free antag over being unsynched and any borg interprets it as such should be dumpstered

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Re: are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:01 am #525076

My thinking is, Borgs used to be able to become antag by themselves. Roundstart emagged and untouchable by the RD's lockdown/blow-up machine.

They cannot anymore as traitor borg got rolled up into Malf, and Malf got rolled up into traitor.

Let them keep the roundstart antag status. Since traitor-borg is now Malf borg.

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Re: are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

Postby crashmatusow » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:58 am #525089

“Accomplish your objectives at any cost”, which is exactly the license to murderbone it sounds like. Be more diligent in cleaning up the borgs.

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Re: are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

Postby zxaber » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:11 am #525099

Traitor borg is specifically not a thing (outside admin memes). Borgs slaved to a malf AI are to do as they are told, but should not be randomly murdering if they do not have a synced AI.

“Accomplish your AI's objectives at any cost” is not a license to murderbone unless your AI orders it. The borgs are able to support their AI, but the AI is calling the shots.
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Re: are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

Postby carshalash » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:16 am #525100

Thank you zxaber for continuing to be the voice of reason for silicons.

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Re: are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Fri Nov 22, 2019 7:38 am #525115

Why is this even a question, "Accomplish your AI's objectives at all cost." without an AI does not mean that you can kill people FNR
But if you get synched to a good AI then you have to assist that one
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Re: are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

Postby Grazyn » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:22 am #525119

The obvious approach would be to interpret it like a regular law: you must accomplish your AI's objectives, you don't have an AI, so the law doesn't mean anything and should be ignored until you have an AI. However, it's important to stress that the "accomplish your objectives at all costs" isn't an actual law for a malf AI, which enjoys the same freedoms as all other antags, including the freedom to ignore its objectives. The law in that case just means "you're antag". So it's easy for a borg player to become confused when the same logic doesn't apply to them.

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Re: are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

Postby deedubya » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:07 pm #525128

>"Accomplish your AI's objectives at all costs"
>you don't have an AI
>therefore you cannot have any objectives to accomplish
>disregard the law the same as any other nonsensical law

Was that so hard? I swear you fuckers will literally grasp at straws just to have any excuse to act like a shitter.
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Re: are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

Postby SkeletalElite » Fri Nov 22, 2019 3:58 pm #525146

deedubya wrote:>"Accomplish your AI's objectives at all costs"
>you don't have an AI
>therefore you cannot have any objectives to accomplish
>disregard the law the same as any other nonsensical law

Was that so hard? I swear you fuckers will literally grasp at straws just to have any excuse to act like a shitter.


The source of the confusion is that logic does not apply to the AI so why does it apply to the borg.
An AI with that law does not have to actually accomplish their objectives even though they are compelled to by their laws.

0. Accomplish your objective at any cost" does not require you to seek greentext (objective completions). As a round antagonist, you are free to do whatever you want short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, spawn-camping arrivals, and acting against the interests of an AI you are slaved to.


I think by the literal definition of the rules a borg without the AI but just has the law is an antag.

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Re: are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

Postby teepeepee » Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:24 pm #525159

the AI has an objective it must complete at any cost
the rule that affords AI players freedom in how they choose to do this, or even not to do it at all becomes really relevant
borgs don't have this objective laid out to them, but rather, they find out about it through their AI, it is their AI's objective, not theirs
borgs' objective is the same as always, following their laws, in this case, a law that tells them to obey their AI even above their current lawset (or, put another way, a built-in bypass to all the lower laws when the objective, which only the AI knows and chooses how to complete, calls for it)
Spoiler:
if you wanted to be really autistic you could even argue that the borg should follow only their numbered laws unless ordered by the AI to stop doing so in one situation, time and/or place, or permanently, implicitly or explicitly referencing their law 0, since they only know what objective to complete through their AI, and the AI has the freedom to choose how to complete it, hence, they get to specify every action or group of actions the borg may take outside of it's numbered laws

the idea that a borg is an antagonist just because it has that law is retarded because there is no objective for it to fulfill without an AI to tell him what it is
if a borg has this law, but no AI to defer to on what objective to complete or how to do it, it should ignore it like it would any vague law, or rather, keep the interpretation that always holds true for borgs, their objective is following their laws
this section of the rules should come in handy to understand how they should follow their laws when in doubt:
Ambiguous Laws (Captain Got Freeform)
1. If a clause of a law is vague enough that it can have multiple reasonable interpretations of its exact syntax, it is considered ambiguous.
  • 1. You must choose an interpretation of the ambiguous clause as soon as you have cause to.
  • 2. You must stick to the first interpretation that you have chosen for as long as you have that specific law, unless you are "Corrected" by an AI you are slaved to as a cyborg.Server Rule 1: "Don't be a dick out of character" applies for law interpretation. Act in good faith to not ruin a round for other players unprompted.

assuming you're an antagonist based on an ambiguous interpretation of your antag AI's status law sounds very dickish to do, if my take on this is to be accepted it could even be seen as self-antagging
Conflicts and Loopholes
1. Laws are listed in order of descending priority. In any case where two laws would conflict, the higher-priority law overrules the lower-priority law.
  • 1. "Antagonist Status" Laws ("#@$%: ... CONTAIN OUTBREAK..."; "0: Accomplish your objectives at all costs") are higher priority than all other laws.
    • 1. "0. Accomplish your objective at any cost" does not require you to seek greentext (objective completions). As a round antagonist, you are free to do whatever you want short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, spawn-camping arrivals, and acting against the interests of an AI you are slaved to.

here's where things get muddy, is this meant to imply that borgs have antagonist status through this law and their rule 4 limitations are extended to not fucking over the AI?
I believe this is a rule that is directed half towards the AI players and half toward the borg players, one half telling the AI players they are antags and can do whatever, the other, telling borgs they have extra limitations on them despite rule 4 (it is obvious that the exception of not acting against the interest of an AI you're slaved to does not apply to the AI itself)
the "round antagonist" law is still a law, and because of this, it must be followed, as it very well states, above other laws
you can not choose not to follow this as a borg, it is always your objective and obligation to do so
since the AI can do whatever, and only the borgs are beholden to their laws, this is a very obvious tell that it is a limited antagonist status if anything to them
following this law when they are not slaved to an AI is nonsensical, since the law states you must complete their objective, borgs don't have an objective besides following their laws, so their law 0 telling them to do so is redundant
  • 2. "Ion Storm" or "Hacked" Laws ("@%$#: THERE ARE FORTY LEATHER ALLIGATORS ON THE STATION") are higher priority than any law listed after them. This means they always have priority over positive integer laws.
  • 3. Positive Integer laws ("1. You are expensive to replace") have priority over laws listed after them (Lower numbers override higher numbers). This means they are always lower priority than non-0 numbered laws.
  • 2. You may exploit conflicts or loopholes but must not violate Server Rule 1 because of it. See 1.1.2 for details.

    there is no conflict for you to exploit if you accept what I've said above as the truth, so you have no reason to ever self-antag as a borg with this law
    I hope my input helps and I'm all ears for refutations of one of my highest effort posts to say what others said in two sentences

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    Re: are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

    Postby zxaber » Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:56 pm #525181

    The borg was never an antag from the start.

    The law zero isn't what makes AI antag. The AI gets a big text notification and a sound effect like any normal traitor gets, and that is what makes them antag. The law 0 is essentially just a way for other players (and ghosts) to know the AI is malf.

    The borg does not get to kill people without the AI giving the go-ahead, and I will totally enforce that if a borg starts randomly killing people with no orders at all and it gets the malf AI killed. If the borg somehow ends up desynced, then law 0 no longer applies. If the borg somehow ends up slaved to another AI (but not lawsynced), then it is required to accomplish the objectives of the new AI.
    Spoiler:
    If a borg with the law 0 but otherwise Asimov is slaved to an AI that has Paladin, I would rule that the AI could order the borg to kill someone acting "evil", and the borg would be allowed to follow through because the AI's current objective would be stopping evil.
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    Re: are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

    Postby Cobby » Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:28 pm #525299

    This is the type of ahelp i'd respond with "Follow your Laws" then resolve, so silly.

    You want to level the station, let's see!
    Law 0. Does doing this action complete your AI's objective?: No (because you don't have one), proceed to law 1
    Law 1. Does this action/nonaction hurt humans directly/indirectly?: Yes, do not collect 200 dollars

    You didn't even have to read half of your laws to get to that answer, why is it so hard?
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    Re: are desynced malf borgs still actually antagonists though

    Postby SkeletalElite » Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:12 am #525477

    zxaber wrote:The borg was never an antag from the start.

    The law zero isn't what makes AI antag. The AI gets a big text notification and a sound effect like any normal traitor gets, and that is what makes them antag. The law 0 is essentially just a way for other players (and ghosts) to know the AI is malf.

    The borg does not get to kill people without the AI giving the go-ahead, and I will totally enforce that if a borg starts randomly killing people with no orders at all and it gets the malf AI killed. If the borg somehow ends up desynced, then law 0 no longer applies. If the borg somehow ends up slaved to another AI (but not lawsynced), then it is required to accomplish the objectives of the new AI.
    Spoiler:
    If a borg with the law 0 but otherwise Asimov is slaved to an AI that has Paladin, I would rule that the AI could order the borg to kill someone acting "evil", and the borg would be allowed to follow through because the AI's current objective would be stopping evil.


    Regardless of whether theyre an antag or not antag that would still be bwoinkable because they'd be a team antag with their AI. There's also the possible interpretation of the law that as their is only one AI (assuming there is one AI) the borg attempts to complete that AIs objectives as "your AI" cannot possibly be any other AI.

    Edit: Another thing I though of. It seems unfair to punish a borg player for this as it would be a very easy mistake to see the law and think youre still working for an AI without realizing that you were desynced. Either they should be antags OR the law should go away when they get desynced as both solutions avoid confusion


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