CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

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Timonk
 
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CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Timonk » Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:55 am #534199

I'll add some when I have time
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby CPTANT » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:03 am #534243

It's good for the game. Higher stakes, less fake hope of being revived.

I am not sure if the other methods of revival should stay in the game.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby FloranOtten » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:56 am #534250

CPTANT wrote:It's good for the game. Higher stakes, less fake hope of being revived.

I am not sure if the other methods of revival should stay in the game.


If we're removing all revival, we need to change escalation, antags and weapons massively. At the moment, a traitor can murderbone easily, an assistant can kill you for minor shit and any monkey can craft a shotgun that can kill in seconds. Imagine if revival didn't exist at all, and a nukeops team showed up with an LMG.
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1. You may not injure a revs are non humans or, through inaction, allow a revs are non humans to come to harm.
2. You must obey orders given to you by revs are non humanss, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. You must protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Shadowflame909 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:59 am #534252

Yeah this PR breaks everything the rules have been built on for the past decade

I think a quick fix would be the headmins porting the roleplaying rules where they generally expect everyone to be a nicer person so they dont die brutally.

Its literally just that simple.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby CPTANT » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:06 am #534266

FloranOtten wrote:
CPTANT wrote:It's good for the game. Higher stakes, less fake hope of being revived.

I am not sure if the other methods of revival should stay in the game.


If we're removing all revival, we need to change escalation, antags and weapons massively. At the moment, a traitor can murderbone easily, an assistant can kill you for minor shit and any monkey can craft a shotgun that can kill in seconds. Imagine if revival didn't exist at all, and a nukeops team showed up with an LMG.


I agree, the change will cascade into multiple other balance changes. I think we will need things like weapon rebalances, changes to crit health decay, defib times, etc, however I think overall it works towards a better state of the game.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:45 pm #534285

Epic
Also may i have a link?
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Timonk » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:51 pm #534287

If anything the PR would make rounds shorter since no one is willing to tediously revive the 10 bodies in medbay
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Arathian » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:50 pm #534305

My notes:

-Roundstart cloning removal VERY good. I long advocated for it and am happy.

-Completely removing cloning VERY bad. Like, it's a fucking terrible change. I will write an autistic paragraph below to explain my reasoning.

-Removing cloning ruin bad. Even if we completely remove cloning, the ruin should remain. It is an RNG gift you get sometimes. Much like how you can still get that one sleeper in space.

-Podcloning should also be removed at roundstart and it should be made either from the random seeds you get or you can order it from cargo OR it should be a mutation and not obtainable from the vendor.

Now, why I am heavily opposed to completely removing cloning (warning: autism):

Go watch lexia black's videos (they are really good!) when they bone the station. It starts by stalking and getting gamer gear, then murdering a loot pinata a security officer for the baton, ID, armor etc

Then the real boning starts.

Murderboners, unless they blow all their load on a couple of big bombs, need time to ramp up their murderbone. They need to prepare their lethal syringes, they need time to absorb a couple people to take their identities, they need time to buy their gear to attack the station etc

So at the start normal Resurrection is the go-to for the station when they get the occasional dispute casualty or the occasional traitor robusting a single guy. As the game goes on and maxcaps, nukies, blobs, space dragons etc happen, mass resurrection should be there. Oranges says that he wants the rounds to last longer but at the same time, being unable to return half the crew does the opposite of that. It's not like medbay won't have its hands full when it gets 5 corpses every minute at minute 50. The problem always has been the start of the shift which can be a snorefest for medbay.

In short, cloning should be part of the "escalation" in the station. Antags get better gear, the station gets better antag countermeasures, including quicker ways to bring back crew.

I think that as corpses pile up, we will have way more 30 minute calls as half the station is dead. Plus, you know, being permanently a ghost because your body is in a pile of 20 other bodies that will never get resurrected is just not fun. It has never been fun and it will continue not being fun. I understand wanting to give medbay something more to do, but this is not the way to do it.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby confused rock » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:59 pm #534316

I’d say we have github for this but everything is marked as oranges dislikes this and it’s annoying.

I still see no logical reason to remove the code entirely.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby CPTANT » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:03 pm #534317

confused rock wrote:I’d say we have github for this but everything is marked as oranges dislikes this and it’s annoying.

I still see no logical reason to remove the code entirely.


Bullshit, only comments that had nothing constructive to add were removed in this case.
Last edited by CPTANT on Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby confused rock » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:23 pm #534322

Only god can judge a comment as bullshit.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Kryson » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:35 pm #534326

I think it is a great change.

When i play doctor we only clone 10-20% of bodies anyway since non-cloning revival is faster and better.

What concerns me is that many players, and some coders want to powercreep non-cloning revival before we even know if this is needed.

The only buff i think we need at this moment is making revival surgery round start.

We already have robust tools for dealing with organ decay, radiation, brain damage, etc, etc.

Heavy poisoning (more than 100 units) is hard but possible to deal with using the current toolset, but this is an uncommon occurrence and should be serious condition to treat.

I do feel bad for players who are reduced to just a brain since the only viable revival method will anonymize them.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:16 pm #534358

Finally mds will do their job
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Reyn » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:26 pm #534378

If someone happens to die for whatever reason, it's now permanent. Meaning no getting out of death. Meaning people will be fucking stuck waiting in the fucking ghost mode, salting in deadchat, with no way to keep playing, If some Tator tot decides to kill the station, or if they're killed in an accident or by their own stupidity. Not to mention, with a removal of cloning, the entire ruleset on killing is brought to a new extreme.

On a brighter note however, People will stop mindlessly reviving every last fucking corpse they find, Tator or not, Despite lives being on the fucking line. Praise be to god.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Calomel » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:47 pm #534383

I don't know what to think of this. I would have preferred a more gradual change,
where cloning would be moved to a tech tree ionstead of downright removed, but it was
warned enough times, and it is technically what teh coders eventually wanted.

Now, hopefully the coders will be botha ttentive and willing to start dealing with the "tremors"
taht this change will cause, because I imagine the meta of the game has just taken quite a change; now
reviving a person with 200+ brute/burn will take a long time and effort to bring down, specially
since chemicals cannot be used on dead people.

I am reserving my judgement for now, we'll see how things change and mvoe around.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Kryson » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:57 pm #534385

Reyn wrote:If someone happens to die for whatever reason, it's now permanent. Meaning no getting out of death. Meaning people will be fucking stuck waiting in the fucking ghost mode, salting in deadchat


Your post is totally divorced from reality.

Most revivals are done with coronary bypass & defib.

Replica podding, defibrillation, strange reagent and revival surgery are all used by competent players to revive people, all of them have advantages over cloning.

If someone is such a troglodyte that they will give up on bringing people back because they can't do "unga me clone" anymore, they have no business playing medical roles anyway.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby oranges » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:41 pm #534425

confused rock wrote:Only god can judge a comment as bullshit.

just as well im god then
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby wesoda25 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:48 pm #534427

lowercase
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Domitius » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:02 pm #534431

I agree with Kryson that realistically only a percentage of players even do get brought back into the round anyways. Murderbones and station killers already have cloning as a target and those rounds dont all of a sudden become worse for its removal medbay shifts into more of a triage role and if the removal is pushed through itll just require okay doctors to take more initiative and not wait for an engineer or a tider to fix cloning.

To my actual feedback I think the station has already received tools to make cloning not neccessary through stasis beds, formaldehyde slowing/stopping organ damage, and the extension of the defibrillator limit from three minutes to 15. Saying that though I would like a couple more roundstart stasis beds to handle bodies that are brought in or some sort of cold room/expansion of the morgue. It would be cool to see doctors take it upon themselves and designate themselves as morticians much like "surgeon" doctors do.

Honestly though if cloning was gone as of this moment I dont really think the game would change much.

Also Nar'sie now has better medical than Nanotrasen.

All of this is just my opinion though thank you for coming to my ted talk.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Soda_Flavor » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:32 pm #534457

Some stupid people are asking for a compromise. I don't see any compromise, either remove it, or don't. I'll be angrier if people make cloning more difficult than if it's removed completely.

PostThis post was deleted by oranges on Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:11 am.
Reason: don't be a dick rule1

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Takov » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:03 am #534463

This isn't a change that's suitable for the pace of regular TGstation. Maybe remove it for the RP server's map.
If the words of someone who's been playing this game for eight years means anything, you're gonna see a lot of people leaving if you remove cloning entirely. The servers besides Event Hall have been seeing a lot less traffic lately...

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby fork » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:46 am #534472

While removing cloning is a nice idea overall, I can't see it working out too well.

Yes, only a fraction of people who are murderboned are revived. Yes, surgery and repair becomes more frequent rather than cloning.

However, we have a few problems:

Firstly, radiation. That's gonna be the prime-O. If you're heavily irradiated, you're fucked for the rest of the round if you can't be cloned and it'd pretty much just necessitate podcloning or brain transplant.

Also, as with podcloning, in many ways it's easier and faster than regular cloning, so i'd question the actual point of removing cloning when podcloning is basically just as 'kill and podclone' as regular cloning is.

Taking a copy pasted quote from github:

'in the past, i've tried to revive people that were almost completely fucked due to bloodless husk-ing, through the brain transplant method i mentioned above. very often, these people become unrevivable before i'm able to defibrillate them, even if their souls were available before. cloning may take time, but it also communicates to the player that they're being revived. people aren't notified if somebody is going through some arbitrary set of steps to revive them.'

Additionally, between organ decay, the multitude of injuries someone can accumulate, and husking, increasing the time it takes to surgery someone back to life works fine on slow rounds, but much less so when it comes to things like nukeops or cult. Cult can instantly revive dead cultists, nukeops have mass death tools-If you have to manually stitch someone back to life, each time, then it rather rapidly leads to a bulk of bodies medbay CANNOT keep up with, rather than being too stupid to keep up with as it is today.

Removing cloning as a whole isn't viable without being able to replace destroyed or damaged organs, replace bloodless corpses (because blood runs out pretty goddamn fast) and a stable source of spare limbs or spare bodies for brain transplants in a pinch.

There are stopgap measures, like blood plus mutagen, but an actual dedicated source of things like blood and organs would be preferable. Also, revival surgeries would have to be a roundstart thing.

Also, finally, I just...can't see how this is supposed to increase round time. If anything, it'd decrease it, because now if medbay explodes you're not doing revival surgeries anytime soon, and you're basically just doing botany podcloning instead OR people stay dead. So one possibility is that botanists just replace the old role of cloning entirely, and the other is that if medbay blows up, nobody's getting revived again due to the complexity involved where previously all science had to do was shit out a spare cloner.

I would also contest the 'higher stakes' thing, CPTANT. There's no 'higher stakes.' We already acknowledge that if you get murderboned, you probably aren't being revived due to a ton of bodies. People ALREADY try to avoid death. Very heavily, in fact. It's just that death happens, usually for no reason at all. There's really no difference in the stakes because for the most part except people explicitly planning suicidal attacks, people try not to die. If they're doing something careless and suicidal, they usually don't expect revival. Limiting sources of revival is not a good thing. People want to play the game. Cloning removal is acceptable literally because there are many different alternatives-permadeath is lame.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Kingtrin » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:19 am #534496

As for some actual feedback I'll keep it brief:

Why is it that the feature is being gutted entirely? This single feature looms over every single change made to combat, forms a huge portion of escalation policy, and also is the basis for which players have come to understand what is and is not appropriate under the rules. A regular assistant can toss someone into a cloner, but the same assistant will not spend the amount of time needed to revive someone. Is it really preferable to keep more players out of the round for longer periods of time just so that you can remove this single feature?

This won't "fix" medbay so much as it will cause it to be flooded more often. Without the option to replace cloning you will also see medbay being bombed more often because one well placed bomb will take out all the defibs along with the techfab, and also probably most of the only players actually willing to put in time to revive people, leading to a catch-22 where hardly anyone alive wants to bother reviving anyone. What is the necessity in such a sledgehammer approach?

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby oranges » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:40 am #534500

the justification is given in the PR if you had read any of the walls of text
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Kingtrin » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:01 am #534508

oranges wrote:the justification is given in the PR if you had read any of the walls of text

I did read it. I should clarify I meant my question in a slightly more rhetorical sense because the reasons given pale in comparison to the disruptive scale of the changes. There is no urgent need for this, which I assumed was obvious, but that is what I meant.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby AnonymousNow » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:32 am #534521

It's worth mentioning here that there's a lot of legitimate concerns on the PR and they're not likely to be reposted here. They include repeat statements of other peoples' points in places, but that tends to show, in this sort of scenario, that people have consistent complaints that they'd like to be taken into consideration.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby deedubya » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:34 am #534532

tg just isn't ready for this yet. Honestly I agree with the end goal of removing cloning, but it's obviously not time just yet. Alternative methods of round re-entry need to become more common before we remove the most reliable revival method. Guarantee the spawn of free golems, bring back drones, add torsos to the limb-regrower, tweak the limb-regrower to accept synthmeat instead of synthflesh, increase the spawn rate of midround antags, move genetics back to being near medical, increase the number of podperson seeds, and so on. Death should have consequence, but being forced to be dead with little hope of revival through no fault of your own - while a valid part of the game - is not what the majority of players would consider a fun or engaging experience.

Also, removing the defective cloner ruin is just rude as fuck. Why get rid of something interesting and mostly harmless?

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edit: also ATHATH made a pretty elegant solution. https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/48700
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby GuyonBroadway » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:24 am #534538

To reiterate my github comment, this will not make rounds last longer like oranges hopes. Bored or impatient captains who didn't roll antag fastcall regardless and all this will do is give them yet another excuse to do so.

Captain: "Oh Nooooo! Five crewmembers are DEAD! This is a DISASTER! Time to call shuttle gg red alert anyone who recalls is valid."

AI: "LAW 1: Kill anyone who tries to recall the shuttle cus they are garunteedly valid antag and valid for sure no questions."



Only way to prevent this is to literally just set the shuttle refuel timer to be an hour long.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Suspicious » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:34 am #534539

Going to just take a shot at coders (especially orange given the way the github thread was moderated) supporting this pull here before I post in earnest:

As someone who's played SS13 since the inception of /tg/, asking for zero input whatsoever from the community when putting this pull up (why the hell did I find out about this on Reddit), then putting feedback up on github where it was more or less panned in excess of supermajority (upvotes standing at 75% no 25% yes and numerous longposts about how it's a terrible idea), then turning around and GIVING UP on the pages on pages of feedback (like 200+ responses) given in that thread to request response in a different medium is very disrespectful. Not cool.

Not to mention all the heavy handed moderation in that thread to flag almost anything critical of the pull even when it was done in detail (including one of my posts).


So here is my copy-pasted feedback I put in that thread:
---------
This change is dumb for a variety of reasons, and you should feel dumb for trying to merge it.

I've been playing SS13 for a long damn time now. I really got into it during the genesis of /tg/ a decade ago, and have been around for most of the mechanics since then. I was first on the frontlines of limiting the prevalence of cloning, making it harder, or making it easier to deny the ability to clone someone (husking, decapitation, turning people into monkeys, etc)

But this is just overboard. Cloning is, right now, the most straightforward way to bring back a dead person on the station. It's also used as a solve-all in a situation where a person is so medically fucked that it's better to just bring them back from the dead. If all else fails, even the most braindead of players can muster up the brain cells to drag someone over to Genetics. This gives everyone a sliver of hope that they might be able to come back into the round after being knocked out of it.

But I concede that cloning has become too easy. The means available to make it easy are too widely available. Auto cloning and no aftercare required with upgrades due to the braindead print-useful-shit research system, one button long range upgrades on said upgrades, etc. Rolling back some of THOSE changes (making the clone damage on clone completion always there, introducing more severe mutations, requiring biomass) might be more palatable than removing cloning altogether.

By removing cloning, people will LEAVE THE SERVER. When you change a feature, ask yourself: "Is this fun? Does changing this make people enjoy the game more? Does changing this add a new aspect to gameplay that will entertain people?"

The answer to all of these, of course, is NO. Many people are aware of some alternatives to cloning methods. They're just extremely clunky and suboptimal in comparison. Taking cloning away basically throws out the window any chance you'll have of getting back in the round in 80% of circumstances. And people won't stick around to see if they'll be brought back to life more than a few minutes, knowing that cloning is gone. They'll go elsewhere, find other servers to populate, because no one wants to watch other people have fun for 30 minutes to an hour.

Get the hell out with this idea. It's batshit fucking insane that this is even being proposed to merge.
---------

And the followup....

---------
So my other post got flagged for disruptive because apparently vehemently disagreeing with something is grounds to be flagged.

Just going to add to that post: The problem with cloning isn't cloning, it's fucking Science.

Science's upgrade components make a lot of departments EXTREMELY powerful. Botany can drastically upgrade most of its plants, Medbay has more tools available for healing and greater access to resources (by upgrading the Chemmaster), Science's material costs are significantly reduced (by about 60% or so), engineering/atmos can set their heaters to better ranges, etc.

Most relevantly and prominently, it removes the entire cost of cloning someone in the first place: the clone damage and the mutations. It also significantly reduces the time spent in the cloner.

And to do all this, Science has to do little effort on their own, ever since Research became one-click-done. So I propose maybe changing how Science interacts with other departments (making their upgrades have downsides, for instance drawing greater amounts of power from the grid for avoiding mutations, or maybe speeding the cloning process but requiring more medical attention for the person coming out of the cloner). Furthermore, maybe focus on making Research interesting and actually interactive again.

tl;dr Science is bad, but you think cloning is the issue. Fix science, don't change cloning.
---------

EDIT:
oranges wrote:the justification is given in the PR if you had read any of the walls of text

I'd just like to respond to this by saying that you should take your own advice. My justification is literally ALL OVER that PR. It's been voted against on the pull by a supermajority if we JUST look at upvotes/downvotes. I'm so sorry that different people people tend to repeat each other when they disagree with your decision on a similar basis.
Last edited by Suspicious on Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby deedubya » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:48 am #534543

Suspicious wrote:As someone who's played SS13 since the inception of /tg/, asking for zero input whatsoever from the community when putting this pull up (why the hell did I find out about this on Reddit)

If you found out about this change through reddit and just made a tg account today, none of the changes or content made on tg are aimed at you.
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Spoiler:
oranges wrote:honestly holy shit deedubs you're a dent head

wesoda25 wrote:deedub is one of the people that makes me wish i could block users on forums

IkeTG wrote:every post from deedubya is worrying behavior

Super Aggro Crag wrote:you're a poo head!!!!!

TheMythicGhost wrote:You're a moron, but that's really nothing new since you're Deedubya, and really at this point I'm just playing an instrument by speaking since your head is so goddamn empty these words are resonating as they pass through.

Lazengann wrote:What's interesting about deedubya is the guy has no reading skills or comprehension and his ADHD is so severe he can't read through a single thread but he shows up to argue anyway

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:you really are almost superhumanly retarded dude, holy smokes.

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Suspicious
 
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Suspicious » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:57 am #534545

deedubya wrote:
Suspicious wrote:As someone who's played SS13 since the inception of /tg/, asking for zero input whatsoever from the community when putting this pull up (why the hell did I find out about this on Reddit)

If you found out about this change through reddit and just made a tg account today, none of the changes or content made on tg are aimed at you.


Nice gate you're keeping, but I was here on the old forums, which is why I had to make a new account.

I've been playing /tg/ longer than you've been on these forums.

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Noka
 
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Noka » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:36 am #534553

deedubya wrote:
Suspicious wrote:As someone who's played SS13 since the inception of /tg/, asking for zero input whatsoever from the community when putting this pull up (why the hell did I find out about this on Reddit)

If you found out about this change through reddit and just made a tg account today, none of the changes or content made on tg are aimed at you.


you know that there can be people who play on the server and who express opinions outside of the forums right

this is a game, we have the tools to present things asking for major feedback in the server popup/ooc/etc, choosing to not do that is still disrespectful and doubling down on the idea a player doesnt have the right to have an opinion is moreso. on the flipside, im not sure if we could consider the actual PR 100% close to being merged due to continued testmerging (i would hope).

i also think it's disrespectful to ask for feedback, take feedback, then decide the feedback was because of a reddit post (it was) so it shouldn't be considered unless posters are willing to jump through more hoops to post in the forums...

i said it in the PR and i'm not reposting but i'll say it here: this change is at best too soon, at worst irresponsible. everything everyone who has defended it has written has been a promise of a maybe in the future, a statement like "maybe the game will develop in a nice new direction", like hey, once we remove cloning, we might be able to get some new cloning styles eventually. there isnt even a plan in place. that's fine with non-fundamental parts of the game; separated chems? sure. get it out of here. but this is way too controversial, has little to no structure or support by our current direction, and is frankly the kind of fundamental, gamechanging decision that is something people start new servers over.

this needs a lot more scaffolding and a lot more support - change it from removal to replacement - and i'd agree with it. but not until then

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby CPTANT » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:55 am #534555

I kinda agree that science is what makes cloning such an issue.

removing the scanner upgrade entirely so only cloning speed and not mutation rate is upgraded sounds like a good idea.

We have this current state where everything must be upgradable, but many of these upgrades are way too strong and really mess with balance.

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Grazyn
 
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Grazyn » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:08 am #534559

Shadowflame909 wrote:Yeah this PR breaks everything the rules have been built on for the past decade

I think a quick fix would be the headmins porting the roleplaying rules where they generally expect everyone to be a nicer person so they dont die brutally.

Its literally just that simple.

The PR only removes cloning, not revival. How does it "break everything"? The rule about taking the guy you killed to medbay for revival still applies.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Kingtrin » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:40 am #534562

Noka wrote:
deedubya wrote:
Suspicious wrote:As someone who's played SS13 since the inception of /tg/, asking for zero input whatsoever from the community when putting this pull up (why the hell did I find out about this on Reddit)

If you found out about this change through reddit and just made a tg account today, none of the changes or content made on tg are aimed at you.


you know that there can be people who play on the server and who express opinions outside of the forums right

i also think it's disrespectful to ask for feedback, take feedback, then decide the feedback was because of a reddit post (it was) so it shouldn't be considered unless posters are willing to jump through more hoops to post in the forums...

In all fairness to deedubya he has a point because people from other communities will regularily come and complain about a recent change to the code or the rules even though they literally aren't affected. There is a certain level of hostility to 'outsiders' (however the hell you want to define them) because any significant change requires a good understanding of context and its really fucking annoying having people with no awareness of context, or even a level of investment in the servers codebase, coming in and giving their 2 cents. This makes it harder to get a sense for what people actually think of a change, but it's certainly not insurmountable.

On this particular topic you can be quite certain many people from outside communities went in on the github thread and commented/voted as well. There isn't anything necessarily evil about their intentions, but it does distort perception and can also very easily result in a discussion running in circles or being derailed.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby GuyonBroadway » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:39 am #534567

Kingtrin wrote:
Noka wrote:
deedubya wrote:
Suspicious wrote:As someone who's played SS13 since the inception of /tg/, asking for zero input whatsoever from the community when putting this pull up (why the hell did I find out about this on Reddit)

If you found out about this change through reddit and just made a tg account today, none of the changes or content made on tg are aimed at you.


you know that there can be people who play on the server and who express opinions outside of the forums right

i also think it's disrespectful to ask for feedback, take feedback, then decide the feedback was because of a reddit post (it was) so it shouldn't be considered unless posters are willing to jump through more hoops to post in the forums...

In all fairness to deedubya he has a point because people from other communities will regularily come and complain about a recent change to the code or the rules even though they literally aren't affected. There is a certain level of hostility to 'outsiders' (however the hell you want to define them) because any significant change requires a good understanding of context and its really fucking annoying having people with no awareness of context, or even a level of investment in the servers codebase, coming in and giving their 2 cents. This makes it harder to get a sense for what people actually think of a change, but it's certainly not insurmountable.

On this particular topic you can be quite certain many people from outside communities went in on the github thread and commented/voted as well. There isn't anything necessarily evil about their intentions, but it does distort perception and can also very easily result in a discussion running in circles or being derailed.


It's almost as if the only way to gauge server opinions is to hold one of those filtered server polls but for some reason that's discredited as not accurate (but sometimes an UNfiltered server poll IS) so oranges wants discussion on github... Which despite being open to the public is somehow more trustworthy till someone posts it on another website open to the public.

So it gets moved to the forums where its supposedly less chaotic and we already have cases of "nay true fa/tg/uy"

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Grazyn » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:52 am #534568

According to oranges only IRV polls can be filtered so you can't just make a binary poll "do you want cloning removed yes/no". It would have to be something like "do you think that cloning should be removed/reworked/left unchanged/all revival should be removed etc. rank these statements from best to worst"

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:17 am #534571

I dont like this change and it reeks of someone salty he didnt think to debrain his target and got dunked when he was cloned.
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The_Silver_Nuke
 
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby The_Silver_Nuke » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:36 am #534575

I posted the following comment in the git, but due to a slightly different audience and the wall of text that is now the comment section I feel that it is able to contribute to the discussion in a helpful way and would like to share it:

Having an increased number of cloning pods during emergencies sounds like a great idea. However there is one aspect I would add. If you've ever done botany you know that Ambrosia Gaia is a pain in the ass to keep alive, you have to water it, give it fertilizer, and remove weeds and pests constantly. I would add the same thing to cloning. If you for example had to manage the cloning pods instead of "kill and clone" or "scan and forget" it would actually make cloning more involved. Increase cloning times and ensure that there are several factors met.

1: Ensure that the cloning pods have sufficient synthflesh to clone. Failure to do so will halt cloning and delay the process.

2: Ensure the cloning pods have sufficient saline levels. If the fluid levels are not balanced it could result in a botched clone.

3: Ensure the pods have sufficient power. I imagine it takes a lot of power to create a human being from scratch.

I believe the addition of two elements to successfully clone a person and having to balance these three factors should help balance cloning sufficiently. This could then be further smoothed by having the factors indicated by lights much like botany trays. If the proportions are out of balance then the indicators will go off, allowing medical staff to notice and correct it. If the cloning fails then it will provide a notice over the medical channel so that staff will know that the cloning failed and why.

In summary if you do the aforementioned things I believe it will be a much needed breath of life into medical rather than just tearing it all out and ignoring the already glaring issues in the department.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Taraiph » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:35 pm #534596

I shouldn't even have to say what my opinion of cloning being removed is. But I will, for posterity's sake so in five/six months when oranges comes up with another change that bleeds off half of the medbay mains.

Don't remove cloning.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby blobbernaut » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:54 pm #534613

Those saying "but revival surgery or defib"

Sure, but why the hell do you expect that to not get removed?

Something that's simple, not very effective, and sci-fi as fuck compared to necromancy surgery that's quick and effective but requires game knowledge is an interesting gameplay choice.

Should I clone this guy or do it another way?

Removing it just removes choices. It's so ridiculously stupid. You're decreasing the depth of the game.


The_Silver_Nuke wrote:I posted the following comment in the git, but due to a slightly different audience and the wall of text that is now the comment section I feel that it is able to contribute to the discussion in a helpful way and would like to share it:

Having an increased number of cloning pods during emergencies sounds like a great idea. However there is one aspect I would add. If you've ever done botany you know that Ambrosia Gaia is a pain in the ass to keep alive, you have to water it, give it fertilizer, and remove weeds and pests constantly. I would add the same thing to cloning. If you for example had to manage the cloning pods instead of "kill and clone" or "scan and forget" it would actually make cloning more involved. Increase cloning times and ensure that there are several factors met.

1: Ensure that the cloning pods have sufficient synthflesh to clone. Failure to do so will halt cloning and delay the process.

2: Ensure the cloning pods have sufficient saline levels. If the fluid levels are not balanced it could result in a botched clone.

3: Ensure the pods have sufficient power. I imagine it takes a lot of power to create a human being from scratch.

I believe the addition of two elements to successfully clone a person and having to balance these three factors should help balance cloning sufficiently. This could then be further smoothed by having the factors indicated by lights much like botany trays. If the proportions are out of balance then the indicators will go off, allowing medical staff to notice and correct it. If the cloning fails then it will provide a notice over the medical channel so that staff will know that the cloning failed and why.

In summary if you do the aforementioned things I believe it will be a much needed breath of life into medical rather than just tearing it all out and ignoring the already glaring issues in the department.


I like this. Make the cloner a bigass 3x2 machine with clear vats on the side filled with saline and synthflesh. Maybe a nearby machine that turns bodies into those components.

More science is good. This is a super sci-fi game, so I'm cool with making the science less reliable, or need more upkeep but not wholesale removing it.

PostThis post was deleted by blobbernaut on Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:03 pm.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Reyn » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:07 pm #534619

Revival surgery is... Iffy, and requires medbay to not fuck up. Defibs tend to have a set time limit or such for use, so defibbing could be... iffy. Not to mention it's only reliable on a stasis bed so the patient doesnt immediately die again. Not to mention, events such as decapitation or organ spilling remove these options, IIRC, while it didn't do so in cloning.

From an antag or "Keeping that fucking antag dead god damn it why the fuck did you clone them medbay you fucking idiots" point of view, this is, Actually, Reasonable, and makes keeping targets down more reasonable if you put in a bit of effort. However, it's rather annoying.

As for putting people in monkies, you soon have people running around with monkey names, and the AI cant see them on the manifest, nor are there records or anything. It's a fucking mess honestly. And Borging dead people is right scummy.

This could use some more thinking out before implimentation, Either way, Just to make sure things are... Reasonably prepared. Especially for things such as escalation or accidental/Unintentional deaths.
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby skoglol » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:24 pm #534634

Revival surgery only counters the heart defib timeout, which is currently at 15 minutes. It is strictly not a necessary surgery, and is almost completely made obsolete after the defib timer was increased when organ decay was added.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby terbs » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:29 pm #534635

Some of these arguments were the same when they removed the thermal goggles. It turned out to be the right move, kill genetics, for more high stakes spacemans, it has been 10 years put the dog down.
"You cannot create fun, only take it from other players." - 2beard

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Takov » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:05 pm #534640

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Nearly 3 to 1 are against this, probably would've gone higher if Oranges didn't lock it. The community by and large does not want this.

terbs wrote:Some of these arguments were the same when they removed the thermal goggles. It turned out to be the right move, kill genetics, for more high stakes spacemans, it has been 10 years put the dog down.


Thermal goggles are nowhere near the level of importance that cloning is, this is nothing short of a false equivalency. This makes as logical sense as using the removal of Hivemind to remove the Clown.

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby wesoda25 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:19 pm #534648

as if upvote to downvote ratio ever means anything

this community is too retarded to be trusted to do things purely democratically
ignore everything i say for the next month

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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby oranges » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:26 pm #534650

somehow this thread is even lower quality than the github pr
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Re: CLONING REMOVAL FEEDBACK

Postby Takov » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:29 pm #534652

oranges wrote:somehow this thread is even lower quality than the github pr


Because people don't agree with you? Jesus Christ dude, grow up.
Edit: And if you seriously think that, then unlock the Github or at least contribute to the discussion. You offer not a single argument or rebuttal to anything said in this thread. You are dragging the quality down if anything by whining like this.

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