Prisoner Role Policy Thread

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RaveRadbury
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Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby RaveRadbury » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:23 pm #539218

Prisoner roles have just been added. I coded them as broadly as I could as I'd like the community to decide how they should be played.

Currently prisoners are not allowed to roll antag. They may be selected for Dynamic antag, this is a bug that I will have fixed shortly.
This was a requirement that Cyberboss put on it, possibly in part due to the antag freeze.

People are asking, what does the prisoner do? What is their escalation policy?

In my opinion a prisoner should be able to spend their whole round in perma and have that be fine. Spending a round in perma is a pretty chill way to be and we definitely have other roles like that in the game. At the same time, players find it exciting to sneak out or get put on work release and dig out their tracking implants. I
think a certain amount of this is alright, but if they're like depressurizing perma to escape via space or getting guns and killing people that's pretty over the line.

That's all just my opinion, and I am more interested in how the community decides on what the prisoner role should be than what I do.

Here are some policy posts that were coming up in the coding feedback thread for prisoners

Tarchonvaagh wrote:average prisoner on terry

They need a policy
Are they antags? Are they allowed to act like antags? Do they have relaxed escalation rules?


Anonmare wrote:I suggest making them not crew-aligned, such as ghost roles and silicons, and give them escalation rules similar to the passive neutral ghost roles (don't kill or be killed without a good reason) but I don't have the time or patience to write down every hard rule. Really, just consider using what would be considered a reasonable amount of force to accomplish a goal.

If it would get you bwoinked as a free golem or a pod vaulter - then it's probably something you shouldn't be doing.


Sheodir wrote:Controversial take but I want them to have full antag rules, anything goes. This way Sec has a great incentive to keep them locked up, and it gives almost every shift a chance for a full blown traitor even if it's greenshift or the actual traitors die off early.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Arathian » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:31 pm #539220

I think making them sometimes antag, sometimes not antag, mostly loose escalation a-la purged AI/golems is the solution. But that would require a code solution, but I'll post it in both threads since its relevant in both.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby wesoda25 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:01 am #539224

uninformed post alert

They should be able to be antags, but no uplink.

Should experienced relaxed escalation from the crew (crew can kill them for lesser reasons than normal) but not towards crew (cant just murderbone or do mass grief).

Semi valid upon escaping.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Sheodir » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:24 am #539226

Arathian wrote:I think making them sometimes antag, sometimes not antag, mostly loose escalation a-la purged AI/golems is the solution. But that would require a code solution, but I'll post it in both threads since its relevant in both.

This isn't such a bad idea. Like it's a 50/50 roll at the start of the shift where a bright green/red prompt appears saying

"YOU ARE A GOOD PRISONER! Innocent or not, you've made a vow of collaboration and pacifism. You might defend yourself or even try to escape, but you are not an enemy of the station and will not harm other people substantially for your own sake. Standard escalation rules apply."

or

"YOU ARE A BAD PRISONER! Innocent or not, you've decided to do whatever it takes to escape this prison and make them pay for putting you in here. Lone antagonist rules apply."

No uplink of course.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Shadowflame909 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:52 am #539228

They should always be valid upon escaping.

ALL of the prisoners should be in there for crimes that would violate "If you do something to just be a dick, and then get murdered and ahelped? I'm gonna ban you."

Thus, one prisoner would have the goal to kill the station pets.

The other with the goal to lube the halls.

Another one, to steal the captains locker.


Just general assistant minor grief goals, nothing major, nothing antaggy. But 100% valid.

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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Mickyan » Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:19 am #539231

This was proposed as a chill out/roleplay role and it's already being discussed to be turned into a full antag, which bothers me quite a bit

Most of all because it loses any chance of ever becoming more than a tutorial role on what's the most efficient way to break out of perma to earn your free antag round
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Bawhoppennn » Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:16 am #539279

Mickyan wrote:This was proposed as a chill out/roleplay role and it's already being discussed to be turned into a full antag, which bothers me quite a bit

Most of all because it loses any chance of ever becoming more than a tutorial role on what's the most efficient way to break out of perma to earn your free antag round


While I definitely agree they shouldn't be a free antag for anyone who wants them, I don't see why a prisoner would make sense to be a 'chill' role. That's not really the first image I conjure into my mind when I think about prisons...
This kinda brings me to a different point related to RP: I think too many people consider RP should just be like a safe, bubble-wrapped, sterile, office job simulation, even though that really isn't what it should be about at all.
RP doesn't automatically = chill (even though chill can really only exist under RP), it just means people act more like a real person (or perhaps more accurately, a caricature/stereotype of a person). RP should still have all the thrills, suspense, action, danger, excitement, and conflict that you would see elsewhere, except without the awful deathmatch mentality of playing as a silent combat drone whose only goal is to kill as many as possible and win. Having to keep your prisoners in line and prevent them from escaping, and the prisoners have to try and overcome that and escape anyways (assuming they're doing it at the right time), poises a great RP situation which can be fun for both sides.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby nianjiilical » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:27 am #539285

prisoners are a great role and concept but theyre definitely in a weird place where, even though they shouldn't be full blown antags, they're clearly intended (to me anyway) to have the right to fight with and resist security to an extent. having what amounts to a designated greytide role might be much in the long term but its worth a try

i think non antag prisoners should get some form of unique objective/antag text along the lines of "You are a Prisoner, incarcerated for [crime]. You may choose to remain in the brig and serve your sentence, or attempt to escape. Do not commit any major crimes that would lead to your execution!". obviously there are sec that would execute just for escaping the brig, but i like the idea of the line in the sand being 'dont do any crimes that would lead to anything worse than being put back into the brig'

as for proper antags, i think prisoners should have a whitelist for possible antag rolls. more specifically, i think prisoners being solo antags is fine, but it's unfair for blood brothers, cultists or revolutionaries to start a round only to realize their critical ally picked what is essentially an rp punishment job. imagine a round where there's a cult, but two of the starting cultists are inexperienced and the third is a prisoner with a cellmate who can hear them whispering on cultspeak

i definitely like the idea of prisoners who roll traitor getting a unique "Break out of prison and escape alive and not in custody, by any means possible." objectives

not giving them uplinks is a good idea, but it'd be even better if the permabrig or even just security as a whole had some kind of anti-uplink jamming machine that meant they actually had to escape before they could get any of their items
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby cacogen » Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:59 am #539312

as a fully geared up security officer with an entire sec team at my back i find myself positively tremulous in the face of a couple of guys with a pair of pants each and a bar of soap between them so i need the rules to make sure they don't do anything that'd make sense in their position as lifers a hair's breadth away from execution like break out or rob the armoury and make sure they stick to gardening and chatting because after all we play video games to simulate the drudgery of real life

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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Sheodir » Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:05 am #539313

cacogen wrote:as a fully geared up security officer with an entire sec team at my back i find myself positively tremulous in the face of a couple of guys with a pair of pants each and a bar of soap between them so i need the rules to make sure they don't do anything that'd make sense in their position as lifers a hair's breadth away from execution like break out or rob the armoury and make sure they stick to gardening and chatting because after all we play video games to simulate the drudgery of real life

based post

EDIT: We actually had a super cool and creative shift yesterday where an antag helped the prisoners escape by giving them disguises and escorting them out as if they were staff. If the prisoners were then free to roam around and pester the station it could've led to some real cool places.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:19 pm #539327

Tarchonvaagh wrote:average prisoner on terry

They need a policy
Are they antags? Are they allowed to act like antags? Do they have relaxed escalation rules?

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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Cobby » Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:26 pm #539351

I prefer if we just nip the default antag idea in the bud because antag carries a lot of acceptances people are going to abuse until the role gets removed.

They should have flavortext that potentially enables them to do certain actions a nonantag may not be permitted to do. Basically treat them like a ghost role that you can’t just off because they’re a nuisance.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby confused rock » Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:39 pm #539366

Bawhoppennn wrote:This kinda brings me to a different point related to RP: I think too many people consider RP should just be like a safe, bubble-wrapped, sterile, office job simulation, even though that really isn't what it should be about at all.
RP doesn't automatically = chill (even though chill can really only exist under RP), it just means people act more like a real person (or perhaps more accurately, a caricature/stereotype of a person). RP should still have all the thrills, suspense, action, danger, excitement, and conflict that you would see elsewhere, except without the awful deathmatch mentality of playing as a silent combat drone whose only goal is to kill as many as possible and win. Having to keep your prisoners in line and prevent them from escaping, and the prisoners have to try and overcome that and escape anyways (assuming they're doing it at the right time), poises a great RP situation which can be fun for both sides.

This made me realise- higher roleplay standards should allow for more dangers, not the inverse- when the crew has some minimum of competence that at least isn’t self destructive there’s no reason why baddies like the prisoners should be more forgiving. We’re not quite there yet though as some think hunting valids being bad == being nice to murderous antagonists is good.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Sheodir » Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:50 pm #539367

Cobby wrote:I prefer if we just nip the default antag idea in the bud because antag carries a lot of acceptances people are going to abuse until the role gets removed.

They should have flavortext that potentially enables them to do certain actions a nonantag may not be permitted to do. Basically treat them like a ghost role that you can’t just off because they’re a nuisance.

Why? This game thrives on conflict. Let them have a freedom to act as dangerous escaped criminals could, because then every action the crew takes is framed against this. Rehabilitating them is dangerous and requires trust. They actually require oversight and constant monitoring. Even if they escape, they are entirely reliant on their wits, skills and RP, being literally lesser than an Assistant with no access whatsoever.

This is a wonderful way to organically create conflict into the shift. The only rule I'd only add is that killing your fellow prisoner at roundstart is grounds for Sec to execute.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Shadowflame909 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:29 pm #539371

Sheodir wrote:This game thrives on conflict. Let them have a freedom to act as dangerous escaped criminals could, because then every action the crew takes is framed against this. Rehabilitating them is dangerous and requires trust. They actually require oversight and constant monitoring. Even if they escape, they are entirely reliant on their wits, skills and RP, being literally lesser than an Assistant with no access whatsoever.

This is a wonderful way to organically create conflict into the shift. The only rule I'd only add is that killing your fellow prisoner at roundstart is grounds for Sec to execute.



Would them being the equivalent of minor griefers be satisfactory?

Minor griefing being stuff you'd get killed for, but not banned for. Like placing 100 bananas all over the hallways, lubing it up, spamming clown mechs around people. Y'know being a shitty mean clown, or just a dick in general by killing ian, cutting down the christmas tree, turning poly's radio on. etc, etc.

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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Mickyan » Tue Feb 04, 2020 3:50 pm #539379

Some people in this thread seem to be blissfully unaware that you can reliably escape and/or make spears in perma in a matter of minutes
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Sheodir » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:20 pm #539385

Mickyan wrote:Some people in this thread seem to be blissfully unaware that you can reliably escape and/or make spears in perma in a matter of minutes

My literal first comment on the PR AND on the feedback coding thread was that perma had to be extensibly reworked for this to work and to possibly fit this into my proposed and in progress PR to rework the brig to revolve around labor camp and perma and remove the timed brigs. Radbury seems to agree that perma has to be changed to fit the role.

Escaping perma isn't that harmless when done fast, and excuse me if even then I'm not that scared of a somewhat damaged escaped spessman with no access and a spear.

Shadowflame909 wrote:Would them being the equivalent of minor griefers be satisfactory?

Minor griefing being stuff you'd get killed for, but not banned for. Like placing 100 bananas all over the hallways, lubing it up, spamming clown mechs around people. Y'know being a shitty mean clown, or just a dick in general by killing ian, cutting down the christmas tree, turning poly's radio on. etc, etc.

This isn't a bad idea but I prefer either full antag or full normal rules because I don't like when policy gets convoluted or easy to argue around like so.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:29 pm #539387

Agree that the role is a cool idea, and also that it highlights some problems with perma itself:

  • Unfathomably boring
  • Trivial to escape from
  • As a result of the above, no real reason to ever use it over execution or borging

Sheodir wrote:Escaping perma isn't that harmless when done fast, and excuse me if even then I'm not that scared of a somewhat damaged escaped spessman with no access and a spear.
It's not hard to take the radio or pen uplink and throw it somewhere with TC left on it.

Sheodir wrote:My literal first comment on the PR AND on the feedback coding thread was that perma had to be extensibly reworked for this to work and to possibly fit this into my proposed and in progress PR to rework the brig to revolve around labor camp and perma and remove the timed brigs. Radbury seems to agree that perma has to be changed to fit the role.
This sounds cool though.

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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Agux909 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:56 pm #539393

I've only played one round with 2 prisoners in Manuel as HoS and I must say I already like the role and the potential interactions/rp elements it can offer to the round.

In this particular round the two prisoners were relatively tame and were released from perma by the Warden, given tracking implants, then joined other departments to assist. Neither of them caused any major trouble nor tried to remove their implants, and from time to time I'd see them around helping the respective departments they were assigned to. I feel it overall added to the atmosphere positively.

I am of the opinion that the role should remain as is without adding any non-antag/antag mechanic. The role is selectable from the jobs after all and isn't supposed to be another way to roll antag. Besides, if this option were to be set, most people that wanna roll antag may pick and occupy the role slot then suicide if they don't get antag.

I guess only time will tell if anything needs to be adjusted, but for the time being I think it's a good addition. Cheers
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Sheodir » Tue Feb 04, 2020 6:00 pm #539400

Agux909 wrote:I've only played one round with 2 prisoners in Manuel as HoS and I must say I already like the role and the potential interactions/rp elements it can offer to the round.

In this particular round the two prisoners were relatively tame and were released from perma by the Warden, given tracking implants, then joined other departments to assist. Neither of them caused any major trouble nor tried to remove their implants, and from time to time I'd see them around helping the respective departments they were assigned to. I feel it overall added to the atmosphere positively.

I am of the opinion that the role should remain as is without adding any non-antag/antag mechanic. The role is selectable from the jobs after all and isn't supposed to be another way to roll antag. Besides, if this option were to be set, most people that wanna roll antag may pick and occupy the role slot then suicide if they don't get antag.

I guess only time will tell if anything needs to be adjusted, but for the time being I think it's a good addition. Cheers

WHilst this sounds nice consider that by not having proper policy in place leaves the role confused as is. If they decide to collaborate it's great and all, but you're obviously allowed to try to escape in the Prisoner role. And then what's the limit? Are you supposed to just give up if anyone's in the way? If you can attack, are you supposed to heal them if they're bleeding out?

Without a clear policy the role just becomes messy, even if they can work both ways if people behave.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Agux909 » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:11 pm #539412

Sheodir wrote:WHilst this sounds nice consider that by not having proper policy in place leaves the role confused as is. If they decide to collaborate it's great and all, but you're obviously allowed to try to escape in the Prisoner role. And then what's the limit? Are you supposed to just give up if anyone's in the way? If you can attack, are you supposed to heal them if they're bleeding out?

Without a clear policy the role just becomes messy, even if they can work both ways if people behave.


Agree, fair point.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby RaveRadbury » Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:14 pm #539413

I coded this role because I observed a guy asked to be perma'd and then saw him spend the entire shift in there. It is common for players to go catatonic while being processed by sec and/or perma'd. I would like for this new role to create a positive shift in the sec system, where cop and criminal both have an engaging gameplay experience. Ideally we'll see changes to perma and maybe even the brig in general.

If we set up antag status or escalation that causes players who rolled for this job to suicide if they didn't get what they wanted, I would see that as a failure.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Cobby » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:48 pm #539422

Sheodir wrote:Why? This game thrives on conflict. Let them have a freedom to act as dangerous escaped criminals could, because then every action the crew takes is framed against this. Rehabilitating them is dangerous and requires trust. They actually require oversight and constant monitoring. Even if they escape, they are entirely reliant on their wits, skills and RP, being literally lesser than an Assistant with no access whatsoever.

This is a wonderful way to organically create conflict into the shift. The only rule I'd only add is that killing your fellow prisoner at roundstart is grounds for Sec to execute.


well for one thing if they're called antag I have right to kill them roundstart for no other reason than they're antag (Not Manuel).

The extra rules in MRP already protect them enough to where I think it's fine for them to be called antag there since it doesn't come with the same freedoms as an antag on the other servers (that people tend to abuse).
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:33 am #539492

I think traitors should be allowed to be spawned in perma.

BUT, Prisoner traitors cannot get an uplink until they escape perma.

This is how: At roundstart, there will be a cosmetic item in the perma maint with the same icon as the Telecomms machine. It's name would be "Syndicate Blue space Jammer"

For a prisoner traitor to get their uplink, they'd have to break out of perma and then press a hidden one use implant on their limb, to droppod a syndicate radio full of their TC.

The drop pod instead of the instant spawn is so Sec doesn't metagame and forcefully drag all prisoners out of perma to see if any of them have an uplink.

I love me some paranoia.

Once again, the syndicate bluespace jammer would be purely cosmetic and an in-universe reason for why prisoners don't spawn with uplinks right away.
Last edited by Shadowflame909 on Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Armhulen » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:35 am #539493

Shadowflame909 wrote:I think traitors should be allowed to be spawned in perma.

BUT, Prisoner traitors cannot get an uplink until they escape perma.

This is how: At roundstart, there will be a cosmetic item in the perma maint with the same icon as the telecomms machine. It's name would be "Syndicate Bluespace Jammer"

For a prisoner traitor to get their uplink, they'd have to break out of perma and then press a hidden one use implant on their limb, to droppod a syndicate radio full of their TC.

The drop pod instead of the instant spawn is so Sec doesn't metagame and forcefully drag all prisoners out of perma to see if any of them have an uplink.

I love me some paranoia.

time to start chopping off arms

time to suicide if i don't get antag because job boring
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:36 am #539496

Armhulenn the admin would ban anyone who chopped off arms at roundstart because "potential antag".
Same with roundstart suicidal antag rollers.

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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Armhulen » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:39 am #539498

Shadowflame909 wrote:Armhulenn the admin would ban anyone who chopped off arms at roundstart because "potential antag".
Same with roundstart suicidal antag rollers.

actually fair enough i'd be pissed if sec started doing that roundstart

still, antag rollers are pretty hard to catch and the job is almost intentionally boring
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby SkeletalElite » Wed Feb 05, 2020 5:35 am #539534

Giving them loosened escalation is the way to go. They can start conflict and kill if they have at least a flimsy reason for doing so, but also with an expectation not to go out of the way to perma kill (no spacing/cremating.)

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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby zxaber » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:32 pm #539575

Having the potential for them to be spawned as antags isn't a terrible idea; I could forsee a meta develop where security arms prisoners in times of crisis before regular crew members because "I know he can't be an antag". (Whether this becomes an issue with resecuring the prisoners or if that would even come up is another matter.)

That being said, snowflake things like anti-uplink machines and hidden one-time buttons sound terrible. Best case scenario, someone creates a new round-start antag that works like a solo blood brother (in that you get no antag-specific tools but are still a solo antag), and we grant prisoner the ability to be that antag at round-start alone.

Otherwise, if you ask me, prisoners should be left to their own devices (outside security checkups and whatnot) unless they cause problems or try to break out. I watched an HoS order the borging of all prisoners "because the station is going to shit and engineers aren't fixing it", which I believe should certainly be avoided (especially when the brig and sec pod are perfectly untouched). Yeah, the prisoners are in perma, which is usually reserved for murderers and traitors, but that alone shouldn't mean they're valid. That being said, security should have a relaxed escalation in response to prisoner attacks/escapes; if they try to get out, they're asking for trouble. And, of course, (non-antag) prisoners should not be killing security for doing their jobs, even when on the lamb.

Also, idea I just had, it would be neat if round-end screens listed which prisoners made it out alive, with an emphasis on security's performance instead of individual prisoners. That is, security gets a sort of greentext if all of their prisoners are alive and accounted for (including if they're in custody on the shuttle). It could perhaps at least give a bit of drive for security to keep them alive.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Sheodir » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:49 pm #539576

zxaber wrote:Having the potential for them to be spawned as antags isn't a terrible idea; I could forsee a meta develop where security arms prisoners in times of crisis before regular crew members because "I know he can't be an antag". (Whether this becomes an issue with resecuring the prisoners or if that would even come up is another matter.)

That being said, snowflake things like anti-uplink machines and hidden one-time buttons sound terrible. Best case scenario, someone creates a new round-start antag that works like a solo blood brother (in that you get no antag-specific tools but are still a solo antag), and we grant prisoner the ability to be that antag at round-start alone.

Otherwise, if you ask me, prisoners should be left to their own devices (outside security checkups and whatnot) unless they cause problems or try to break out. I watched an HoS order the borging of all prisoners "because the station is going to shit and engineers aren't fixing it", which I believe should certainly be avoided (especially when the brig and sec pod are perfectly untouched). Yeah, the prisoners are in perma, which is usually reserved for murderers and traitors, but that alone shouldn't mean they're valid. That being said, security should have a relaxed escalation in response to prisoner attacks/escapes; if they try to get out, they're asking for trouble. And, of course, (non-antag) prisoners should not be killing security for doing their jobs, even when on the lamb.

Also, idea I just had, it would be neat if round-end screens listed which prisoners made it out alive, with an emphasis on security's performance instead of individual prisoners. That is, security gets a sort of greentext if all of their prisoners are alive and accounted for (including if they're in custody on the shuttle). It could perhaps at least give a bit of drive for security to keep them alive.

The escape scenario is where I disagree and where as previously stated the role gets messy. You're a prisoner. Shawshank Redemption-ing your way out is an obvious, intended part of the role. And escape will generate friction. Is a prisoner supposed to just give up if harm is the only way out? Are they supposed to heal the guards that come to arrest them if they "self defense" too hard?

The only two scenarios - and the basis of my 'good prisoner, bad prisoner' roll idea - is that either they are allowed the full range of antagonist freedom and that danger becomes a key part of the role when dealt by others, or they are a full normal crew member and shouldn't even attempt to escape. Anything in the middle is too cloudy, too imprecise and will lead to a lot of bad rulings and grief down the line.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby zxaber » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:11 pm #539579

Attempting escape is fine and dandy, but if you really don't want to be in there, play assistant. If you're in it for the escape attempt (IE, journey, not destination), then you should be willing to accept some risk. Otherwise, if you're there to chill and tend to your garden while doing the RP thing with security, then it shouldn't even really come up.

And again, people are choosing to play prisoner. It'd be different if we were randomly forcing players into the role. If you choose to be a prisoner, you should not be murdering sec (even in self defense) for responding when you try to break out.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby XDTM » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:46 pm #539580

What's the policy for 'volunteering' prisoners as guinea pigs? I can imagine there are virologists, surgeons, nanite scientists, and possibly others who would appreciate having live subjects for their experiments.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Sheodir » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:47 pm #539581

zxaber wrote:Attempting escape is fine and dandy, but if you really don't want to be in there, play assistant. If you're in it for the escape attempt (IE, journey, not destination), then you should be willing to accept some risk. Otherwise, if you're there to chill and tend to your garden while doing the RP thing with security, then it shouldn't even really come up.

And again, people are choosing to play prisoner. It'd be different if we were randomly forcing players into the role. If you choose to be a prisoner, you should not be murdering sec (even in self defense) for responding when you try to break out.

So are we setting that as a hard rule? This is the issue. Vague rulings won't work. Are they supposed to never harm anyone in their escape attempts? Where is the limit?

I'm just asking for actual policy, and not a bunch of vague rules that only make sense in people's heads.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Shadowflame909 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:10 pm #539595

XDTM wrote:What's the policy for 'volunteering' prisoners as guinea pigs? I can imagine there are virologists, surgeons, nanite scientists, and possibly others who would appreciate having live subjects for their experiments.



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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Lazengann » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:28 pm #539600

give security greentext if the prisoner is alive and in the brig section of the emergency shuttle at round end

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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Agux909 » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:52 pm #539601

I also think that we need a clear policy fast or problems may start arising soon.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Grazyn » Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:42 am #539750

Can you help another inmate break out? I suppose you don't, because that would get a regular non-antag banned and from what I understand this role isn't antag. But at the same time it's counter-intuitive because it's pretty obvious that inmates would help each other.

I don't know, was there really such a high demand for this role? Couldn't it just stay as an admin-only thing?

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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Flatulent » Thu Feb 06, 2020 9:31 am #539762

Grazyn wrote:Can you help another inmate break out? I suppose you don't, because that would get a regular non-antag banned and from what I understand this role isn't antag. But at the same time it's counter-intuitive because it's pretty obvious that inmates would help each other.

what are you even saying? You can help anyone breakout if you are prisoner yourself, there is IC justification to this. Even if you are helping an antag escape this is a non-issue because you aren't doing antag shit yourself.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Grazyn » Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:10 am #539769

Flatulent wrote:
Grazyn wrote:Can you help another inmate break out? I suppose you don't, because that would get a regular non-antag banned and from what I understand this role isn't antag. But at the same time it's counter-intuitive because it's pretty obvious that inmates would help each other.

what are you even saying? You can help anyone breakout if you are prisoner yourself, there is IC justification to this. Even if you are helping an antag escape this is a non-issue because you aren't doing antag shit yourself.

If you end up in PERMA as non-antag and then help a real antag escape perma I don't think it qualifies as IC

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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Agux909 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:42 pm #539804

Grazyn wrote:
Flatulent wrote:
Grazyn wrote:Can you help another inmate break out? I suppose you don't, because that would get a regular non-antag banned and from what I understand this role isn't antag. But at the same time it's counter-intuitive because it's pretty obvious that inmates would help each other.

what are you even saying? You can help anyone breakout if you are prisoner yourself, there is IC justification to this. Even if you are helping an antag escape this is a non-issue because you aren't doing antag shit yourself.

If you end up in PERMA as non-antag and then help a real antag escape perma I don't think it qualifies as IC


Why not? After all you probably will also be escaping and this may make you valid for execution. Unless you yourself break rule 1 by doing antagonic stuff as non-antag, other interactions should be ok and IC. Besides, there is no way to know for certain from a player perspective if the other perma is actually an antag or not.

However, it doesn't validate you to do antagonic shit like critting or killing people, since you're still non-antag.

Also, if you were permad as non-antag it means you were already doing some rule bending/breaking by self-antagging beforehand, so this has to be accounted for when looking and judging future actions in the same round.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby RaveRadbury » Sun Feb 23, 2020 9:56 pm #545321

Gonna give this thread a nudge because Jailbreak & detain objectives went through. Admins can now add detain objectives for sec and breakout objectives for antags. These are admeme only, so you'll probably need to request it if you want to see it in a round.
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Farquaar » Mon Feb 24, 2020 1:49 am #545383

RaveRadbury wrote:Gonna give this thread a nudge because Jailbreak & detain objectives went through. Admins can now add detain objectives for sec and breakout objectives for antags. These are admeme only, so you'll probably need to request it if you want to see it in a round.

Looking forward to trying this out. Sometimes dealing with a Hannibal Lector-tier prisoner can make a slow shift fun, but it's not fun if it happens every round when you're busy with other antags.

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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby ATHATH » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:21 am #545710

IMO, they shouldn't be allowed to KILL sec officers, but they should still be allowed to DUNK on them and/or escape if they want to.

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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Tarchonvaagh » Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:14 pm #547083

Last round two prisoners killed the warden and the hos for some reason
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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Jack7D1 » Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:26 pm #547154

I LOVE the prisoner role. Also yeah I don't really try escaping really ever. Sometimes I ask for gulag though because I want to help out the station a little.

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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Stillplant » Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:56 pm #547390

I think prisoners should be allowed to try and escape, and they should be allowed to break the rules as long as their rulebreaking is in service of their goal, for example, killing an officer to escape, or to avoid recapture.

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Re: Prisoner Role Policy Thread

Postby Coconutwarrior97 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:59 am #553343

After some discussion this is what we've decided upon for prisoner policy going forward:

Prisoners are not antagonists. Attempting to break out is something they can do, but should not be an every round thing. When breaking out they are free to disable or restrain security but should not murder them. However, if security responds with lethal force, such as lethal shotgun rounds, they can murder in the spirit of preserving their own life. If a prisoner is caught after an attempted breakout, they've opened themselves up to any form of forced experimentation.


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