[Skoglol] <Odosendai> - Note for Powergaming/Metagaming

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odosendai
 
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:11 pm

[Skoglol] <Odosendai> - Note for Powergaming/Metagaming

Postby odosendai » Sun Mar 15, 2020 4:44 pm #549695

BYOND account: Odosendai
Character name: Not sure, I randomname and dont see the round on https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/ckey/odosendai
Ban type: Note
Ban length: Note
Ban reason: 2020-03-14 22:45:57 | Events | Skoglol - Uploaded the law "Wizards, revolutionaries, cultists, and syndicate operatives are not human." roundstart as captain. Told not to do so again.
Time ban was placed: 2020-03-14 22:45:57
Server you were playing on when banned: Event Hall
Round ID in which ban was placed: Cannot be found
Your side of the story: Note for uploading a powergaming/metagming AI law at/near shift start. I have done this in the past, but only ever after actual threats have shown up. I feel like this is a grey area regarding powergaming/metagaming (uploading a blanket antag law, as opposed to one specific to known threats) that isn't explicitly forbidden by the rules. The only reason I uploaded this law near shift start was because it was an adminbus triple AI round, and uploading "improved" laws was the first thing I thought to do to be proactive about the triple AI setup (which has ended in chaos the few times I have seen it in the past).
Why you think you should be unbanned: I want the note removed, or at the very least amended to include the fact that this was done as a direct response to adminbus triple AI. Undoing the law change was the first IC I did after being ahelped. Uploading a law like that without any known threats isn't something I do, and I only did it in response to the inherently chaotic round setup of 3 AI in the same core (an adminbus button). Admin pushes "fun" button, I do something in response to it, and then said admin notes my account for my actions without even including full context, which doesn't seem fair. On other servers I have had volume of notes used against me as a justification for other punishment/denial of appeals, and want to keep my account here as clean as possible.
References of good conduct: For the last few months I have been mostly playing on /tg/, but before that I played a lot on CM. My account there doesn't have any "bad faith" notes and a few hundred hours (from a few months ago).



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Vekter
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Re: [Skoglol] <Odosendai> - Note for Powergaming/Metagaming

Postby Vekter » Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:58 pm #549710

I'm not the banning admin, but I will say that laws such as the one you used do tend to fall under similar rules as the one forbidding taking all the traitor objectives, throwing them in a locker, and putting them in the SM or lockering the entire armory at roundstart.
PM: REDACTED/(REDACTED)->Kevinz000/(REDACTED): Because I had maximum yield explosives and a job to do


Spoiler:
The space bear stares alertly at the giant spider.

Image

Reply PM from-REDACTED/(REDACTED): i tried to remove the bruises by changing her gender

PM: Bluespace->Delaron: Nobody wants a mime's asscheeks farting on their brig windows.

PM: REDACTED->HotelBravoLima: Oh come on, knowing that these are hostile aliens is metagaming

[17:43] <Aranclanos> any other question ping me again
[17:43] <Vekter> Aranclanos for nicest coder 2015
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odosendai
 
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:11 pm

Re: [Skoglol] <Odosendai> - Note for Powergaming/Metagaming

Postby odosendai » Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:07 pm #549713

Vekter wrote:I'm not the banning admin, but I will say that laws such as the one you used do tend to fall under similar rules as the one forbidding taking all the traitor objectives, throwing them in a locker, and putting them in the SM or lockering the entire armory at roundstart.


Completely understandable, and I wouldn't have a problem with the note if I did it at shift start for no reason. I did it, in this instance, as a specific response to what I perceived as a "threat" (triple AI, which has ended in plasma flood nonsense the few times I had seen it). I was trying to take proactive action to help prevent/stall the chaos by making sure the AIs were more on the side of the station crew. Maybe I could have give a better law tailored to the situation (maybe some law about working together with your fellow AIs or something like that). My intent wasn't to dab on the antags, it was to keep the (adminbus) triple AI from getting out of control. If admin had not pushed button, I would not have done what I did and wouldn't have a note on my account.

I also wanna add that, during my interaction with Skoglol, he/she said the problem was "Powergaming/Metagaming", which isn't actually a rule (https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules). I also didn't see any precedent (https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Rulings) about uploading powergamey laws at/near shift start.

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skoglol
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Re: [Skoglol] <Odosendai> - Note for Powergaming/Metagaming

Postby skoglol » Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:29 pm #549720

Hi there.

The reason I contacted you about this was that you were done adding this law to all three AI less than five minutes into the round, before any threat was confirmed and even before I had the time to make an announcement about the three AI's. Try to be a bit less preemptive about solving problems that havent occured yet. The game has "holes" put into it by design, to allow for things to develop. Asimov is one of those holes, and plugging them roundstart should be avoided.

Code: Select all
[2020-03-14 22:36:56.598] GAME: DYNAMIC: Dynamic Mode initialized with a Threat Level of... 31.8!
[2020-03-14 22:41:42.651] LAW: Odosendai/Jerrie Wheeler used 'Freeform' Core AI Module on terrytehtryhard/(T.A.Y.L.O.R) from AI Upload Chamber (112, 129, 2). The law specified Wizards, revolutionaries, cultists, and syndicate operatives are not human.
[2020-03-14 22:41:45.677] LAW: Odosendai/Jerrie Wheeler used 'Freeform' Core AI Module on pinballmage/(O.V.E.R.S.E.E.R) from AI Upload Chamber (112, 129, 2). The law specified Wizards, revolutionaries, cultists, and syndicate operatives are not human.
[2020-03-14 22:41:48.579] LAW: Odosendai/Jerrie Wheeler used 'Freeform' Core AI Module on schnitzelmesser/(U.S.E.L.E.S.S.) from AI Upload Chamber (112, 129, 2). The law specified Wizards, revolutionaries, cultists, and syndicate operatives are not human.
[2020-03-14 22:41:49.506] ADMIN: Skoglol/(Scott Smith) has created a command report: Due to an overflow of posibrains, we have sent over a couple extra AI to your station. It might be prudent to put them to work as a triumvirate through a custom lawset. We will leave that decision up to your heads of staff.


I am willing to edit the note to include the fact there were three roundstart AI this round. The note now reads:
Code: Select all
As captain during a triple AI round uploaded the law "Wizards, revolutionaries, cultists, and syndicate operatives are not human." to all three AI less than five minutes into the round. Told not to do so again.


As an aside on notes, we have a severity system of which this note is marked "minor" and notes fade over time. You shouldnt run into issues due to this note unless it is about something related.

odosendai
 
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:11 pm

Re: [Skoglol] <Odosendai> - Note for Powergaming/Metagaming

Postby odosendai » Sun Mar 15, 2020 8:46 pm #549722

I appreciate the note edit, and am interested in details on how notes "fade" over time. Specifically, how long that takes and whether the note completely falls off my account or not.

Since the reason I appealed was that I disagreed with your (Skoglol) judgement on this, can I get another Admin to take a look at/respond to this?

Also, thought I don't think this is what you meant, I wanna make it clear that even though you hadn't announced it yet the crew was aware there were three AI and was discussing it over radio (hence me feeling the need to do something about it).

Thanks for looking at my appeal.

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skoglol
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Re: [Skoglol] <Odosendai> - Note for Powergaming/Metagaming

Postby skoglol » Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:34 am #549764

Fading essentially means that older notes are visibly indicated to be older and eventually hidden behind a "show all" button since they are rarely very relevant. It will not completely disappear, but as I said this is a minor informative note and nothing more.


Headmins may overrule as always.


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