[Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

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PKPenguin321
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[Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri May 01, 2020 6:37 pm #560234

For some reason, a great deal of people think that playing a friendly antag is better roleplay when it isn't.

Examples of friendly antags that would NOT be banned (hence "soft ban"):
- Antags who do their objectives and from then on are essentially like ordinary crew
- Antags who opt to do the inverse of their objectives (IE protect rather than assassinate) assuming this is still allowed

Friendly antags who need to be thrown in the shitter:
- Antags who immediately hand their uplink to R&D/sec and say "yeah I'm a traitor but I think this makes us even" which is SHIT RP, it's SHIT
- Changelings that join sec within the first minute of the round and openly declare that they are a sec-ling
- Blatantly hostile/lethal antags (slaughter demons, space dragons) that opt to antag hunt instead of antagonize

What I really want to ban but find hard to enforce:
- Antags who do nothing antagonistic and make no attempt at any objective

Antags need to drive the round for roleplay to actually be interesting. Immediately betraying your allegiance to the syndicate/the hivemind is shitty roleplay. Think about the character you're playing; a cold syndicate agent who has trained for this moment has finally infiltrated the station, bypassing all security. His missions have been burned into his mind, his code phrases and uplink passcode memorized, and his first action is... To immediately side with the station for no reason because "durr u get syndie tech that way!!!" Bullshit, and worse still, that's not interesting at all. You've provided nothing to the round and have in fact made it worse. You deserve a temp antag ban.

"Friendly" antags who actively hunt other antags are the worst of the bunch imo. They're meant to provide interesting conflict to the overall story of the round, but they steal that interesting conflict for themselves by turning their tools to create this conflict on other creators. What you end up with is not only a person who is NOT providing the conflict they're supposed to, but actively stopping the other conflict creators from doing so. This creates a defacto extended which sucks. People who do this need a harsher antag ban than those who murderbone on Manuel.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby wesoda25 » Fri May 01, 2020 7:23 pm #560238

I’ve never done it, but I’d think a traitor working with security to help secure their objectives would be a pretty cool gimmick. Whats so taboo about it? They’re creating conflict amongst fellow traitors which could explode violently, which of course provides conflict for the round.

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri May 01, 2020 7:27 pm #560239

wesoda25 wrote:I’ve never done it, but I’d think a traitor working with security to help secure their objectives would be a pretty cool gimmick. Whats so taboo about it? They’re creating conflict amongst fellow traitors which could explode violently, which of course provides conflict for the round.

"working with security" by tossing them/R&D an uplink and then just being a normal crewmember sucks
i've yet to see it play out in an interesting way
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby Anuv » Fri May 01, 2020 7:55 pm #560247

Apply this to every server. Ironic that players on the RP server think the Syndicate would be happy with them giving themselves in. Admin intervention if it's bad enoguh.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby cybersaber101 » Fri May 01, 2020 8:07 pm #560249

- Antags who do nothing antagonistic and make no attempt at any objective


This one would be insanely hard to enforce to the point where you might as well ask if they dont want antag thru bwoinking or a voice in their head my dude. they may be new to being traitor and need a nudge, I'd say it's any admins on the servers fault for not trying to work with them.

In conclusion, just do admin shit instead of weird hard to enforce shit.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby Shadowflame909 » Fri May 01, 2020 8:14 pm #560250

I like it but friendly wizards may need to be the exception. Because even though I find them the worst friendly antag. It's a legitimate survival strat against 60 v 1

Anuv wrote:Apply this to every server. Ironic that players on the RP server think the Syndicate would be happy with them giving themselves in. Admin intervention if it's bad enoguh.


Since nukies are in the ERT menu. Admins should be able to spawn a nuke team with the objective of killing the friendly syndie and then blowing themselves up.

Even if they're destructive, that's about as much destruction as the antag who went friendly SHOULD have caused.

Edit: This can create some interesting situations too. Like trading the captain for the head of said antag.

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby Farquaar » Fri May 01, 2020 8:18 pm #560251

I wholeheartedly agree with you, Pk. Being an antagonist is fun, but the role also comes with the responsibility to drive round conflict. I don't even need to write much else, since you summed up the issue very succinctly.

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby wesoda25 » Fri May 01, 2020 8:49 pm #560256

PKPenguin321 wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:I’ve never done it, but I’d think a traitor working with security to help secure their objectives would be a pretty cool gimmick. Whats so taboo about it? They’re creating conflict amongst fellow traitors which could explode violently, which of course provides conflict for the round.

"working with security" by tossing them/R&D an uplink and then just being a normal crewmember sucks
i've yet to see it play out in an interesting way

I hate to be the guy that checks scrubby but you've literally only played two rounds this past month, obviously you haven't seen it play out in an interesting way (edit: i actually only have two rounds on manuel in the last month too (lot more overall but thats besides the point) - but my point is that if you don't play frequently you can't comment on the frequency of something happening in game, so my playtime really doesn't matter). You can try and work with security without just "tossing them/R&D an uplink" - you could trade codewords for gear/protection, or alternatively certain syndicate goods. During this you constantly run the risk of sec betraying you, and security does the same with you. Meaning theres a constant potential for conflict, more so than if you had just stealthily done your objectives and quietly did your job for the rest of the shift.

Policing antags is and always will be a bad idea. I understand limiting murderbone, but punishing people for inaction is absurd. If antags on manuel aren't exciting enough, perhaps there should be more.

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby Istoprocent1 » Fri May 01, 2020 9:20 pm #560262

Gotta agree, people should not pick antag, if they don't plan to antagonize and just hand over their stuff to play a "normal" round.

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri May 01, 2020 9:20 pm #560263

wesoda25 wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:I’ve never done it, but I’d think a traitor working with security to help secure their objectives would be a pretty cool gimmick. Whats so taboo about it? They’re creating conflict amongst fellow traitors which could explode violently, which of course provides conflict for the round.

"working with security" by tossing them/R&D an uplink and then just being a normal crewmember sucks
i've yet to see it play out in an interesting way

I hate to be the guy that checks scrubby but you've literally only played two rounds this past month, obviously you haven't seen it play out in an interesting way (edit: i actually only have two rounds on manuel in the last month too (lot more overall but thats besides the point) - but my point is that if you don't play frequently you can't comment on the frequency of something happening in game, so my playtime really doesn't matter).

it was shit last time i played and it was shit when i saw it just today. coming back from a hiatus doesnt mean ive been memory wiped.

as for the rest, yes, making compromises with sec for your freedom can be interesting, but immediately siding with sec for the entire round and never intending to do anything antagonistic is shit and should be bannable.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri May 01, 2020 9:21 pm #560264

cybersaber101 wrote:
- Antags who do nothing antagonistic and make no attempt at any objective


This one would be insanely hard to enforce to the point where you might as well ask if they dont want antag thru bwoinking or a voice in their head my dude. they may be new to being traitor and need a nudge, I'd say it's any admins on the servers fault for not trying to work with them.

In conclusion, just do admin shit instead of weird hard to enforce shit.

yeah, hence why i listed this under "What I really want to ban but find hard to enforce," because it's something that we can't reasonably do. just ignore it, it's not really implementable while the rest of the examples are.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby NoxVS » Fri May 01, 2020 10:27 pm #560271

what would your opinion on wizard be? I have played many manuel rounds, and friendly wizard is a genuine problem. They show up, do fuck all, and now you have an hour long round without anything happening if an admin isnt on. They ignore all conflict entirely and have even just been handed all access by command and promoted to captain on some occasions.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby PKPenguin321 » Fri May 01, 2020 10:58 pm #560277

NoxVS wrote:what would your opinion on wizard be? I have played many manuel rounds, and friendly wizard is a genuine problem. They show up, do fuck all, and now you have an hour long round without anything happening if an admin isnt on. They ignore all conflict entirely and have even just been handed all access by command and promoted to captain on some occasions.

I think they're godawful. They have the added shittyness of 99% of the time giving the crew magic/guns, ESPECIALLY the staff of healing which is pure garbage. It's extended only medbay has fuckall to do and they can't even commit suicide because of the fucking healing staff. Definitely ban those too. I'd consider a wizard a "directly hostile" antagonist.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby cybersaber101 » Fri May 01, 2020 11:15 pm #560281

PKPenguin321 wrote:
NoxVS wrote:what would your opinion on wizard be? I have played many manuel rounds, and friendly wizard is a genuine problem. They show up, do fuck all, and now you have an hour long round without anything happening if an admin isnt on. They ignore all conflict entirely and have even just been handed all access by command and promoted to captain on some occasions.

I think they're godawful. They have the added shittyness of 99% of the time giving the crew magic/guns, ESPECIALLY the staff of healing which is pure garbage. It's extended only medbay has fuckall to do and they can't even commit suicide because of the fucking healing staff. Definitely ban those too. I'd consider a wizard a "directly hostile" antagonist.


Friendly wiz especially and wiz in general is hell on earth and is very very frequent. maybe they're still unclear on how much destruction you're allowed even tho its been ruled.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby SkeletalElite » Fri May 01, 2020 11:55 pm #560298

Anuv wrote:Apply this to every server. Ironic that players on the RP server think the Syndicate would be happy with them giving themselves in. Admin intervention if it's bad enoguh.


I think it's fine on non manuel servers because antags don't get any ooc protection when they're friendly under rule 4 on the regular servers, so if you don't like the friendly antag, just kill them.

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby saprasam » Sat May 02, 2020 12:34 am #560301

friendly antags are always shit and i go out of my way to murder them
good policy
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby terranaut » Sat May 02, 2020 12:55 am #560303

Shadowflame909 wrote:I like it but friendly wizards may need to be the exception. Because even though I find them the worst friendly antag. It's a legitimate survival strat against 60 v 1


Friendly wizards are fucking cringe and if your plan to play the single most powerful antag in the game is by giving up and not fighting and begging for your objective or fucking around doing nothing then just disable the role.
Friendly wizards deserve to get shot and summon events/guns needs to fucking go already.

PKP is right pretty much everywhere except in that he wants to limit this to Manuel
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby NikNakFlak » Sat May 02, 2020 1:32 am #560310

PKPenguin321 wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:I’ve never done it, but I’d think a traitor working with security to help secure their objectives would be a pretty cool gimmick. Whats so taboo about it? They’re creating conflict amongst fellow traitors which could explode violently, which of course provides conflict for the round.

"working with security" by tossing them/R&D an uplink and then just being a normal crewmember sucks
i've yet to see it play out in an interesting way

I hate to be the guy that checks scrubby but you've literally only played two rounds this past month, obviously you haven't seen it play out in an interesting way (edit: i actually only have two rounds on manuel in the last month too (lot more overall but thats besides the point) - but my point is that if you don't play frequently you can't comment on the frequency of something happening in game, so my playtime really doesn't matter).

it was shit last time i played and it was shit when i saw it just today. coming back from a hiatus doesnt mean ive been memory wiped.

as for the rest, yes, making compromises with sec for your freedom can be interesting, but immediately siding with sec for the entire round and never intending to do anything antagonistic is shit and should be bannable.

Pretty much agree with wesoda here. you haven't played shit on manual. "my memory hasn't been wiped", gosh by golly guys his like 2 rounds on manual ever sure give him a good picture of the server and how it's antagonists operate.

I play on manual pretty often and admin it even more so. I've seen friendly antags roleplay and be interesting. A notable one was a wizard where I can't really say what his gimmick was other than that the Head of Security roleplayed around him greatly as if he might turn bad at any time and because ghosts were visible. They had a Skub above the bridge being used as a level of wizard evilry. If there was like 4-5 ghosts around, it was skub level 1 and shit was gonna hit the fan.
Friendly antagonists I would say are a little more common than other servers but by hell there doesn't need to be a policy thread for it because it isn't a problem. I hate telling people how to play especially since greatness like the above can happen, and it was more of an effort from everybody, not just the wizard but it allowed the situation to happen none the less. I'm kind of dissapointed in you penguin ngl.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby NoxVS » Sat May 02, 2020 2:14 am #560314

NikNakFlak wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:I’ve never done it, but I’d think a traitor working with security to help secure their objectives would be a pretty cool gimmick. Whats so taboo about it? They’re creating conflict amongst fellow traitors which could explode violently, which of course provides conflict for the round.

"working with security" by tossing them/R&D an uplink and then just being a normal crewmember sucks
i've yet to see it play out in an interesting way

I hate to be the guy that checks scrubby but you've literally only played two rounds this past month, obviously you haven't seen it play out in an interesting way (edit: i actually only have two rounds on manuel in the last month too (lot more overall but thats besides the point) - but my point is that if you don't play frequently you can't comment on the frequency of something happening in game, so my playtime really doesn't matter).

it was shit last time i played and it was shit when i saw it just today. coming back from a hiatus doesnt mean ive been memory wiped.

as for the rest, yes, making compromises with sec for your freedom can be interesting, but immediately siding with sec for the entire round and never intending to do anything antagonistic is shit and should be bannable.

Pretty much agree with wesoda here. you haven't played shit on manual. "my memory hasn't been wiped", gosh by golly guys his like 2 rounds on manual ever sure give him a good picture of the server and how it's antagonists operate.

I play on manual pretty often and admin it even more so. I've seen friendly antags roleplay and be interesting. A notable one was a wizard where I can't really say what his gimmick was other than that the Head of Security roleplayed around him greatly as if he might turn bad at any time and because ghosts were visible. They had a Skub above the bridge being used as a level of wizard evilry. If there was like 4-5 ghosts around, it was skub level 1 and shit was gonna hit the fan.
Friendly antagonists I would say are a little more common than other servers but by hell there doesn't need to be a policy thread for it because it isn't a problem. I hate telling people how to play especially since greatness like the above can happen, and it was more of an effort from everybody, not just the wizard but it allowed the situation to happen none the less. I'm kind of dissapointed in you penguin ngl.

So you are saying instead of the sole driving force for the round you know, driving the round foward, he just talked with a single guy and everyone else ran around in circles for half an hour waiting for something to happen

Friendly wizard is a problem on Manuel. Happens more often than I see normal, antagonistic wizards. They refuse all conflict to the point where you cant do anything with them. I was once chaplain, challenged a friendly wizard to a duel. He just said he would win so it wouldnt be fair so no. I told him I didnt care and still wanted to fight, just kept ignoring me. Eventually I threw chairs at him until he got knocked into crit, dragged him to medical, had him healed, and proceeded to throw more chairs at him. Pretty much no response at all. Lamest wizard round ever.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby confused rock » Sat May 02, 2020 2:30 am #560315

I had a friendly wizard working with the hos when I was being abused by security and the wizard stopped what futile attempts to fight back I had.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby cybersaber101 » Sat May 02, 2020 3:21 am #560316

NikNakFlak wrote:-snip-


you know, as much as I'm not a fan of friendly antags I think overall you're right. it's wrong to force players to play a certain way through policy.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby wesoda25 » Sat May 02, 2020 3:29 am #560318

Perhaps manuel should switch to dynamic then so that a wizard isn’t the sole driving force behind a round.

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby NoxVS » Sat May 02, 2020 3:53 am #560323

cybersaber101 wrote:
NikNakFlak wrote:-snip-


you know, as much as I'm not a fan of friendly antags I think overall you're right. it's wrong to force players to play a certain way through policy.

If players don't want to act out the role they are given then they shouldn't choose to be that role. If you don't want to be antagonistic, opt out of the antag roles.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Sat May 02, 2020 4:00 am #560324

Lone antagonists can do whatever they want

Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

If you want to restrict antags on the server where they can't murderbone without good reason then that is fine since the opposite of being friendly is not allowed already.

If you want to restrict antags on any other server then murderboning SHOULD BE PUNISHED AS WELL. It's either all or nothing otherwise that's double standards bullshit.

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby XivilaiAnaxes » Sat May 02, 2020 4:17 am #560325

Eh if you use "Friendly" as an excuse to kill your targets that's a thumbs up.

If you use "oh i get antag gear" as an excuse to just join the crew what the fuck get out of here.

I can live with friendly wizards if they're still 100% valid to murder just for existing. But straight up giving them AA and going "omg aren't you the best nanotrasen crew member ever xD" should be straight bannable.

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby NikNakFlak » Sat May 02, 2020 7:56 am #560335

NoxVS wrote:
cybersaber101 wrote:
NikNakFlak wrote:-snip-


you know, as much as I'm not a fan of friendly antags I think overall you're right. it's wrong to force players to play a certain way through policy.

If players don't want to act out the role they are given then they shouldn't choose to be that role. If you don't want to be antagonistic, opt out of the antag roles.

I know you don't have all the info and aren't intentionally being a dent head, but it was dynamic, not just wizard. So when the wizard eventually did die, there were other antags and he wasn't the only driving force in that particular round
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby Istoprocent1 » Sat May 02, 2020 8:12 am #560336

Ayy Lemoh wrote:If you want to restrict antags on any other server then murderboning SHOULD BE PUNISHED AS WELL. It's either all or nothing otherwise that's double standards bullshit.


Murderboning is not an issue - the crew can always stop being autistic, group up and defend their station. If security is competent, they might even "SPARK A MANHUNT" over the comms.

The issue is not antags just being incompetent or not trying hard enough. There is no problem handing over one's stuff when they are caught - I even encourage it by giving lesser sentences to traitors depending on cooperation. If one opts into antag roles, they will be actively removing other players' ability to play said role and if they then choose to grief by not doing anything at all or even worse straight up saying "lol i am an antag, here is my gear, i just want normal round".

Imagine picking captain and then just suiciding, because you didn't feel like playing captain that round. The same applies to antags and giving up their gear fnr.

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby Ayy Lemoh » Sat May 02, 2020 8:32 am #560338

Istoprocent1 wrote:post

Hm, you say antags just going IM FRIENDLY like it's dayz is griefing? Well, let's read the rules then
Lone antagonists can do whatever they want

Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.

uh oh - it looks like this type of grief that prevents a round being played properly is actually allowed according to the rules, just like how a murderboner, with the objective to steal some soap, maxcapping the entire station to kingdom come is allowed despite making the round not properly playable.

i guess we'll just have to slippery slope our way into making antags not fun in order to combat this

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby Istoprocent1 » Sat May 02, 2020 8:59 am #560340

Ayy Lemoh wrote:post


Its not that hard to disable antag preferences or just put a syndicate bomb in the maintenance and then go do afk botany for the rest of the round as you have put in the minimum effort required to act like an antag. Might be a problem on Manuel, but not on normal servers.

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat May 02, 2020 8:59 am #560341

NikNakFlak wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
wesoda25 wrote:I’ve never done it, but I’d think a traitor working with security to help secure their objectives would be a pretty cool gimmick. Whats so taboo about it? They’re creating conflict amongst fellow traitors which could explode violently, which of course provides conflict for the round.

"working with security" by tossing them/R&D an uplink and then just being a normal crewmember sucks
i've yet to see it play out in an interesting way

I hate to be the guy that checks scrubby but you've literally only played two rounds this past month, obviously you haven't seen it play out in an interesting way (edit: i actually only have two rounds on manuel in the last month too (lot more overall but thats besides the point) - but my point is that if you don't play frequently you can't comment on the frequency of something happening in game, so my playtime really doesn't matter).

it was shit last time i played and it was shit when i saw it just today. coming back from a hiatus doesnt mean ive been memory wiped.

as for the rest, yes, making compromises with sec for your freedom can be interesting, but immediately siding with sec for the entire round and never intending to do anything antagonistic is shit and should be bannable.

Pretty much agree with wesoda here. you haven't played shit on manual. "my memory hasn't been wiped", gosh by golly guys his like 2 rounds on manual ever sure give him a good picture of the server and how it's antagonists operate.

I play on manual pretty often and admin it even more so. I've seen friendly antags roleplay and be interesting. A notable one was a wizard where I can't really say what his gimmick was other than that the Head of Security roleplayed around him greatly as if he might turn bad at any time and because ghosts were visible. They had a Skub above the bridge being used as a level of wizard evilry. If there was like 4-5 ghosts around, it was skub level 1 and shit was gonna hit the fan.
Friendly antagonists I would say are a little more common than other servers but by hell there doesn't need to be a policy thread for it because it isn't a problem. I hate telling people how to play especially since greatness like the above can happen, and it was more of an effort from everybody, not just the wizard but it allowed the situation to happen none the less. I'm kind of dissapointed in you penguin ngl.

I have more than two rounds on Manuel. It has been practically the only server I've played since it debuted. Just today I began playing again after a hiatus hence my low connection count for just this month. And yes, my memory was not wiped, I do have >2000 hours on this game.
A cool gimmick like what you described in your post would be fine. Again, I want a soft ban. As long as you're driving the conflict of the round in an interesting way you're good. On the other hand, giving the crew 5 staffs of healing at roundstart then jacking off for the next two hours is garbage and should be bannable.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat May 02, 2020 9:03 am #560342

A couple people itt have said this should not be Manuel only but I disagree. Full antag freedom is a cool thing to have, and conflict can still happen with a friendly antag on a server where nothing is stopping you from just bashing their friendly face in because they're valid. On Manuel, it's hard to justify RPing a kill on a guy who just gave you a bunch of cure-all healing staffs, so no conflict can reasonably arise.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby Screemonster » Sat May 02, 2020 9:30 am #560344

if you're not gonna do your objectives, and you're not gonna antagonise, then why the fuck do you have antag turned on

Antags lying low to accomplish their objectives by stealth is fine (and it'd be a real shitmin that bwoinked the antag or fucked with them to blow their cover if they chose to play it that way), there's a difference between "stealthy" and "friendly"

A wizard saying "give me the thing I want and nobody gets hurt" or some other lowkey situation of not being immediately threatening but presented in a way that could become threatening very quickly is still antagonising the crew. "I'm not gonna start shit but if you try to validhunt me I will kill you and everyone else in the room" wizard is great, because the deadchat salt is so much sweeter if they could have avoided it.

shit-tier is when they just straight-up assist the crew as open traitors/lings/wizards/whatever.

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby XDTM » Sat May 02, 2020 10:57 am #560348

This problem could also be helped by code changes; the first thing would be to never rely on a single person to be the antag, to avoid friendly-wizard-extended scenarios (dynamic seems ideal for this). The second thing would be to give random events more teeth and make them more able to shake the round up like an antag would; right now they mostly only trouble the crew if paired with an already active antag (comms failure, lights breaking).
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby Jack7D1 » Sat May 02, 2020 2:29 pm #560354

I always play stealth antagonist, and I hate getting called friendly simply because I'm not blowing things up or killing people I don't have to. I agree with NikNak forcing specific play is lame, hard to enforce and just really lame.
Making is compulsory to ruin other people's round would be very bad.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby teepeepee » Sat May 02, 2020 3:02 pm #560356

"ruining other people's round", also known as antagonizing

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Sat May 02, 2020 3:04 pm #560357

PKPenguin321 wrote:- Antags who immediately hand their uplink to R&D/sec and say "yeah I'm a traitor but I think this makes us even" which is SHIT RP, it's SHIT
- Changelings that join sec within the first minute of the round and openly declare that they are a sec-ling
- Blatantly hostile/lethal antags (slaughter demons, space dragons) that opt to antag hunt instead of antagonize
While I can agree that in a perfect world this sort of thing would be an RP rule 8 violation and should be tamped down on, frankly with the outstanding issues Manuel has regarding basic RP rules enforcement (several of these are just flat out rarely to never enforced, and some of the ones that are seem continually eroded) this seems like it would be pretty far down the immediate priority list.

PKPenguin321 wrote:What I really want to ban but find hard to enforce:
- Antags who do nothing antagonistic and make no attempt at any objective
How about no.
Multiple shifts I've written down my uplink code, then start doing regular job things and 50 minutes later remember I was an antag. Bwoink city?

Our coded in objectives are stale as hell and I don't give a shit about greentexting anyway, I prefer to take my antaggery in the direction of mostly non-violent things that cause confusion and silliness. I have the same chance of getting antag as anyone else, so how about short of murderboning I get to do what the fuck I feel like doing with my round? Sound good?

PKPenguin321 wrote:"Friendly" antags who actively hunt other antags are the worst of the bunch imo. They're meant to provide interesting conflict to the overall story of the round, but they steal that interesting conflict for themselves by turning their tools to create this conflict on other creators. What you end up with is not only a person who is NOT providing the conflict they're supposed to, but actively stopping the other conflict creators from doing so. This creates a defacto extended which sucks. People who do this need a harsher antag ban than those who murderbone on Manuel.
A gimmick I was occasionally fond of was buying martial arts, then wearing the justice suit/helmet or the owl costume and being a "superhero" who fights crime. Sometimes sec would hate me and immediately hunt me down and perma me, sometimes they would just be vaguely antagonistic to me, sometimes they would work with me. Should this be banworthy? Was this me ruining the RP experience?

It kind of sounds like in summary one of your primary issues with Manuel is that there isn't enough blood and explosions and 40 minute rounds.
I would like to think, that's things functioning as intended.

Also, not targeting you PK but several other people in this thread and others; can the people with no interest in nor playtime on Manuel/MRP leave these threads and never return?
Literally why do you have, let alone feel compelled to share, opinions on a server you don't play on and probably fundamentally dislike? Go away.

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby NikoTheGuyDude » Sat May 02, 2020 5:48 pm #560370

God yes, antags shouldn't be a normal crewmember, they should be in constant conflict with the crew unless under exceptional circumstances. It's in the name: ANTAGONIST. If you don't want to antagonize the crew, ahelp to get your antag status transferred, don't pick antag in the first place, or just ghost.

It just makes no fucking sense for everyone to see a wizard/ninja/nightmare/litterally any antag and go "huh i dont care" under normal circumstances, as well as it makes no sense to BE any of these antags (especially things like ninja, wiz, nightmare) and try to coexist with the crew peacefully. Do your goddamn job as an antag.

But I don't want antags who come up with cool gimmicks being antag banned (example: traitor who becomes a martial arts instructor with carp, changeling who acts like an extra terrestrial alien in public, traitor who acts like a superhero, or anything that provokes roleplay and/or is more creative then "me have traitor gear and join sec, me go validhunt now/me now sec but with ling powers")

Also, this is kind of random but... people don't understand the meaning of roleplay. ROLEPLAY is not rolling swarmer and trying to to coexist peacefully with the crew, fuck no, swarmer is rolling swarmer and EATING THE STATION. ROLEPLAY is not talking to people and being nice, no. Roleplay is playing a believable character, and PLAYING YOUR ROLE. Talking to people is called socializing. That's why it's terrible RP to be a friendly antag, because your entire character's point is to antagonize the crew, not coexist peacefully.

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat May 02, 2020 9:55 pm #560391

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:- Antags who immediately hand their uplink to R&D/sec and say "yeah I'm a traitor but I think this makes us even" which is SHIT RP, it's SHIT
- Changelings that join sec within the first minute of the round and openly declare that they are a sec-ling
- Blatantly hostile/lethal antags (slaughter demons, space dragons) that opt to antag hunt instead of antagonize
While I can agree that in a perfect world this sort of thing would be an RP rule 8 violation and should be tamped down on, frankly with the outstanding issues Manuel has regarding basic RP rules enforcement (several of these are just flat out rarely to never enforced, and some of the ones that are seem continually eroded) this seems like it would be pretty far down the immediate priority list.

This is straying dangerously close to the argument of "things are already bad therefore nothing should improve."

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:What I really want to ban but find hard to enforce:
- Antags who do nothing antagonistic and make no attempt at any objective
How about no.
Multiple shifts I've written down my uplink code, then start doing regular job things and 50 minutes later remember I was an antag. Bwoink city?

Our coded in objectives are stale as hell and I don't give a shit about greentexting anyway, I prefer to take my antaggery in the direction of mostly non-violent things that cause confusion and silliness. I have the same chance of getting antag as anyone else, so how about short of murderboning I get to do what the fuck I feel like doing with my round? Sound good?

Already responded to this higher up. It's not realistically enforceable (I even acknowledge that in text you quoted!) so it's not something I really care to push in this thread.

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:"Friendly" antags who actively hunt other antags are the worst of the bunch imo. They're meant to provide interesting conflict to the overall story of the round, but they steal that interesting conflict for themselves by turning their tools to create this conflict on other creators. What you end up with is not only a person who is NOT providing the conflict they're supposed to, but actively stopping the other conflict creators from doing so. This creates a defacto extended which sucks. People who do this need a harsher antag ban than those who murderbone on Manuel.
A gimmick I was occasionally fond of was buying martial arts, then wearing the justice suit/helmet or the owl costume and being a "superhero" who fights crime. Sometimes sec would hate me and immediately hunt me down and perma me, sometimes they would just be vaguely antagonistic to me, sometimes they would work with me. Should this be banworthy? Was this me ruining the RP experience?

If you can make it work and provide an engaging experience to to server, you shouldn't be banned, hence "soft ban" on friendly antags. If you're at odds with sec doing this, you're creating conflict, so you're good. I never said a traitor can never kill another traitor, but things like space dragons who will beeline to the nearest antags by bashing down walls then instagib them (this has actually happened on Manuel) should absolutely be ban-worthy.

annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:It kind of sounds like in summary one of your primary issues with Manuel is that there isn't enough blood and explosions and 40 minute rounds.
I would like to think, that's things functioning as intended.

Yes and no. I enjoy the less breakneck pace of Manuel, but there are way too many rounds where nothing ever happens. I've had players ahelp to me asking if they were "allowed to kill sec if they got in the way of [them] killing the HoS for [their] objective" because they were worried they would get banned for murderboning (before you ask, yes, you can kill people as antag even on Manuel, #wow #woah). Antags are already way too hesitant to actually antagonize, and friendly antags who do the opposite of antagonize just compound the issue of eventless, conflictless rounds even further.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Sat May 02, 2020 10:29 pm #560394

PKPenguin321 wrote:This is straying dangerously close to the argument of "things are already bad therefore nothing should improve."
You're an admin, and if you're interested in RP improving on Manuel, get your ass in gear and enforce basic standards. Mix things ups and make some bans that will result in controversial appeals and peanut raging and eventual precedents and all that. You have the power to do this, please do.

PKPenguin321 wrote:Already responded to this higher up. It's not realistically enforceable (I even acknowledge that in text you quoted!) so it's not something I really care to push in this thread.
Alright, I understand and didn't mean to dogpile, though you did state you "really want" to ban it.

PKPenguin321 wrote:If you can make it work and provide an engaging experience to to server, you shouldn't be banned, hence "soft ban" on friendly antags. If you're at odds with sec doing this, you're creating conflict, so you're good. I never said a traitor can never kill another traitor, but things like space dragons who will beeline to the nearest antags by bashing down walls then instagib them (this has actually happened on Manuel) should absolutely be ban-worthy.
I think I get the essence of what you mean but this kind of breaks down into a lack of our lore and RP standards in general.

Code: Select all
/datum/antagonist/space_dragon/greet()
   to_chat(owner, "<b>Endless time and space we have moved through.  We do not remember from where we came, we do not know where we will go.  All space belongs to us.\n\
               Space is an empty void, of which our kind is the apex predator, and there was little to rival our claim to this title.\n\
               But now, we find intruders spread out amongst our claim, willing to fight our teeth with magics unimaginable, their dens like lights flicking in the depths of space.\n\
               Today, we will snuff out one of those lights.</b>")
   to_chat(owner, "<span class='boldwarning'>You have five minutes to find a safe location to place down the first rift.  If you take longer than five minutes to place a rift, you will be returned from whence you came.</span>")
   owner.announce_objectives()
   SEND_SOUND(owner.current, sound('sound/magic/demon_attack1.ogg'))


Absolutely no part of this conveys "don't go kill antags", in fact if you were trying to take over a space station, excepting dchat/observer metagaming, why wouldn't your primary goal be to kill the biggest threats ASAP then negotiate with the rest?

PKPenguin321 wrote:
annoyinggreencatgirl wrote:It kind of sounds like in summary one of your primary issues with Manuel is that there isn't enough blood and explosions and 40 minute rounds.
I would like to think, that's things functioning as intended.

Yes and no. I enjoy the less breakneck pace of Manuel, but there are way too many rounds where nothing ever happens. I've had players ahelp to me asking if they were "allowed to kill sec if they got in the way of [them] killing the HoS for [their] objective" because they were worried they would get banned for murderboning (before you ask, yes, you can kill people as antag even on Manuel, #wow #woah). Antags are already way too hesitant to actually antagonize, and friendly antags who do the opposite of antagonize just compound the issue of eventless, conflictless rounds even further.
I really, really do not believe this as an ongoing issue. Antags do violent things all the time, we haven't had a single controversial antag ban on Manuel yet, and if anything murderboning is sneaking into acceptance via "OOPSIES DID HIGHLY ILLEGAL THING THEN RAN AWAY AND KILLED EVERYONE WHO CAME AFTER ME".

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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sun May 03, 2020 12:02 am #560404

Citing existing rules as a reason not to change the rules in a thread specifically about changing the rules is an interesting tactic
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby NikNakFlak » Sun May 03, 2020 2:39 am #560412

pkpenguin wrote:I have more than two rounds on Manuel. It has been practically the only server I've played since it debuted. Just today I began playing again after a hiatus hence my low connection count for just this month. And yes, my memory was not wiped, I do have >2000 hours on this game.
A cool gimmick like what you described in your post would be fine. Again, I want a soft ban. As long as you're driving the conflict of the round in an interesting way you're good. On the other hand, giving the crew 5 staffs of healing at roundstart then jacking off for the next two hours is garbage and should be bannable.

People should always be allowed to do whatever they want as antagonists that isn't ruining the round for a large number of people. If you were online to see that as an admin, just inject more antagonists. If you were playing, then maybe 2 hours of manual isn't for you since many others enjoy that.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sun May 03, 2020 3:20 am #560417

NikNakFlak wrote:
pkpenguin wrote:I have more than two rounds on Manuel. It has been practically the only server I've played since it debuted. Just today I began playing again after a hiatus hence my low connection count for just this month. And yes, my memory was not wiped, I do have >2000 hours on this game.
A cool gimmick like what you described in your post would be fine. Again, I want a soft ban. As long as you're driving the conflict of the round in an interesting way you're good. On the other hand, giving the crew 5 staffs of healing at roundstart then jacking off for the next two hours is garbage and should be bannable.

People should always be allowed to do whatever they want as antagonists that isn't ruining the round for a large number of people. If you were online to see that as an admin, just inject more antagonists. If you were playing, then maybe 2 hours of manual isn't for you since many others enjoy that.

Creating conflict is not "ruining the round for a large number of people" (not to say that it can't be), and saying so is clearly fallacious. Oh no, I had to break into the CE office and kill a guy so I could steal the station blueprints, everyone's round is ruined! I should have been a friendly antag!!!

I have created more antags while adminning Manuel due to friendlies. I fail to see how it is relevant to what I propose in this thread. I do play and enjoy rounds on Manuel, even two hours ones, but I do not enjoy the two hour ones where a wizard has given all of medbay staffs of healing and there are no stakes with nothing to do. The implication that friendlies are required for a quality two hour round is blatantly false, because friendlies like that actively make the round worse (by manner of removing the stakes and making it boring).

If you wish to be a regular crewmember, just turn off traitor in your settings. If you want to do a fun gimmick as an antag, what I propose in this thread does not affect you (again, it's a soft ban). I really don't see what you have against this.
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby Cobby » Sun May 03, 2020 4:53 am #560424

what does a soft ban mean, and can it be done with the current setup?
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby NikNakFlak » Sun May 03, 2020 5:01 am #560425

PKPenguin321 wrote:
NikNakFlak wrote:
pkpenguin wrote:I have more than two rounds on Manuel. It has been practically the only server I've played since it debuted. Just today I began playing again after a hiatus hence my low connection count for just this month. And yes, my memory was not wiped, I do have >2000 hours on this game.
A cool gimmick like what you described in your post would be fine. Again, I want a soft ban. As long as you're driving the conflict of the round in an interesting way you're good. On the other hand, giving the crew 5 staffs of healing at roundstart then jacking off for the next two hours is garbage and should be bannable.

People should always be allowed to do whatever they want as antagonists that isn't ruining the round for a large number of people. If you were online to see that as an admin, just inject more antagonists. If you were playing, then maybe 2 hours of manual isn't for you since many others enjoy that.

Creating conflict is not "ruining the round for a large number of people" (not to say that it can't be), and saying so is clearly fallacious. Oh no, I had to break into the CE office and kill a guy so I could steal the station blueprints, everyone's round is ruined! I should have been a friendly antag!!!

Absolutely not what I said at all, kind of a bad faith argument you are making here because I didn't imply nor state that in anyway.

I have created more antags while adminning Manuel due to friendlies. I fail to see how it is relevant to what I propose in this thread. I do play and enjoy rounds on Manuel, even two hours ones, but I do not enjoy the two hour ones where a wizard has given all of medbay staffs of healing and there are no stakes with nothing to do. The implication that friendlies are required for a quality two hour round is blatantly false, because friendlies like that actively make the round worse (by manner of removing the stakes and making it boring).

Why is this your one example?
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sun May 03, 2020 5:25 am #560426

Cobby wrote:what does a soft ban mean, and can it be done with the current setup?

It means that you're still allowed to be friendly as long as you adhere to a fun gimmick or make the round interesting. Not all friendly antags are immediately banned because there are some things that aren't necessarily antagonistic but can still make a round interesting and fun. Several examples have been given in this thread already. Opening a contraband shop where you sell illegal items to the crew is a "friendly" action, but because it's still interesting and can stir conflict, it would be allowed.
To contrast, a "hard ban" on friendly antags might be something like immediately banning any antag who does anything to help the crew of their own free will. Things like the contraband shop example I just gave would be banned. I do not want to ban that kind of thing, so I don't think a full on ban on friendly antags would be appropriate, hence soft ban.

NikNakFlak wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
NikNakFlak wrote:
pkpenguin wrote:I have more than two rounds on Manuel. It has been practically the only server I've played since it debuted. Just today I began playing again after a hiatus hence my low connection count for just this month. And yes, my memory was not wiped, I do have >2000 hours on this game.
A cool gimmick like what you described in your post would be fine. Again, I want a soft ban. As long as you're driving the conflict of the round in an interesting way you're good. On the other hand, giving the crew 5 staffs of healing at roundstart then jacking off for the next two hours is garbage and should be bannable.

People should always be allowed to do whatever they want as antagonists that isn't ruining the round for a large number of people. If you were online to see that as an admin, just inject more antagonists. If you were playing, then maybe 2 hours of manual isn't for you since many others enjoy that.

Creating conflict is not "ruining the round for a large number of people" (not to say that it can't be), and saying so is clearly fallacious. Oh no, I had to break into the CE office and kill a guy so I could steal the station blueprints, everyone's round is ruined! I should have been a friendly antag!!!

Absolutely not what I said at all, kind of a bad faith argument you are making here because I didn't imply nor state that in anyway.

You said that what I propose forces antags to "ruin the round for a large number of people." That is what you said. Reread your post. "ruining the round for a large number of people" <-- text from your post.
I'm somewhat offended that you accuse me of arguing in bad faith when you laid out this hyperbolic fallacy in the first place.

NikNakFlak wrote:
I have created more antags while adminning Manuel due to friendlies. I fail to see how it is relevant to what I propose in this thread. I do play and enjoy rounds on Manuel, even two hours ones, but I do not enjoy the two hour ones where a wizard has given all of medbay staffs of healing and there are no stakes with nothing to do. The implication that friendlies are required for a quality two hour round is blatantly false, because friendlies like that actively make the round worse (by manner of removing the stakes and making it boring).

Why is this your one example?

It isn't my one example, but it is the most blatant, which makes my point the most obvious. I've given more than one example in this thread, some are in the OP:
- Antags who immediately hand their uplink to R&D/sec and say "yeah I'm a traitor but I think this makes us even" which is SHIT RP, it's SHIT
- Changelings that join sec within the first minute of the round and openly declare that they are a sec-ling
- Blatantly hostile/lethal antags (slaughter demons, space dragons) that opt to antag hunt instead of antagonize
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i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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NikNakFlak
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby NikNakFlak » Sun May 03, 2020 8:17 am #560442

I said that not as an example of what you wrote but as the only caveat to the restriction of of antagonists, which is already in place on the servers under the roleplay rules. You seemed to have thought I implied that's what you meant, being lots of friendly antags ruining rounds, when I was not referring to your post at all when I wrote that.
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Flatulent
 
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby Flatulent » Sun May 03, 2020 10:51 am #560452

antags can’t murderbone on mrp because mrp

roleplay-wise being friendly antag makes even less sense than murderboning so banning friendly antag is a good thing

the issue I have with this is that the ban would be limited to Manuel
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby CPTANT » Sun May 03, 2020 11:41 am #560456

When I am security I always execute lings/traitors that come roundstart and promise to rat others out, because I think it is the lamest shit ever.
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saprasam
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby saprasam » Mon May 04, 2020 4:01 am #560505

thought: the reason there's so many friendly antags on manuel is because manuel players are afraid of the boink from having to kill multiple people to complete an objective
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Re: [Manuel] Put a soft ban on friendly antags

Postby XivilaiAnaxes » Mon May 04, 2020 5:11 am #560510

saprasam wrote:thought: the reason there's so many friendly antags on manuel is because manuel players are afraid of the boink from having to kill multiple people to complete an objective

Exactly, people are used to the idea of hrp servers where dickhead admins will "idedreeee" ban you because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I literally remember a ban appeal (not tg) for some guy who killed an 'afk' borg that just happened to park itself at the toxin lab window where he was making weapons (apparently that's murderbone).

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