[Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

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NecromancerAnne
 
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[Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby NecromancerAnne » Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:50 am #569735

We just had a round of Manuel where a traitor with glorious death killed multiple people on the shuttle. Do note, this same round the AI unleashed a singularity that ate most of the station and was killing the vast majority of the crew with their borgs as a Malfunctioning AI.

All of security is dead. There is not much in the way of an actual challenge left except for the few remaining crew aboard the shuttle, and a borg was instructed to kill people on the shuttle. And me, the RD who he was co-coordinating with to get all access (and me some extra gear in return), and also working with the AI in setting up the rounds disasters. I didn't have an active hand in his murdering, just let the other roles do whatever.

I'm being told that he shouldn't have done that, and that Glorious Death isn't actually kosher for murderboning. That's absolutely horseshit and a terrible double standard. If we had issues with boning, we shouldn't have made exceptions, and if we don't make an exception here, this traitor can't get any meaningful use out of that objective at all. Is he expected to just walk out of an airlock? What a terrible fucking buzzkill. Blow himself up in a quiet corner? Still a terrible buzzkill and also unreasonable for a miner to get a good fucking bomb that isn't the piss terrible gibtonite. Bomb and take out some people around him? That's practically no better than him personally stabbing all those people, so why even make the distinction?

We shouldn't be punishing people for putting people in a position to fight him and hopefully kill him as a result, especially when outnumbered, and then winning because he put effort into the act. To try and contrive a way to lose in that scenario is going to be kind of absurd, since it's banking a lot on whoever you rile up to fight you is actually going to kill you and not just beat your ass into crit. You need to actually pose a genuine threat and obviously out with the intent to murder before anyone is going to take you seriously and put your ass down for good, because most people know how to not break our escalation rules and will make a good effort to probably not kill you, even if you are randomly punching and beating people.

(To be fair, I mercy killed him once he had sliced up all of the shuttle with a katana, so he didn't even really get that much, but it wasn't like I was going to fight the guy I was empowering to cause a ruckus.)



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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby Cobby » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:11 am #569738

If you die a glorious death and it kills people? ok whatever you were doing your objective.

If you kill a bunch of people and claim getting toolboxed is a glorious death, that is just using the objective as a flimsy excuse to murderbone.

I'm not sure what the standard that makes it a double-standard is? Hijack? The standard there is it is explicitly called out in the rules as an exception, which this does not fall under.

If people are going to just use it to murderbone we should just remove it, its not like LRP follows objectives anyways.
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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby NecromancerAnne » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:34 am #569739

Cobby wrote:If you die a glorious death and it kills people? ok whatever you were doing your objective.

If you kill a bunch of people and claim getting toolboxed is a glorious death, that is just using the objective as a flimsy excuse to murderbone.


Trying to qualify how you kill a bunch of people is grasping at straws and utterly ridiculous. You can't just spring a fucking bomb out of your arse as any role (except tc of course but usually you have to kill some other people first), and not everyone who gets this objective is in an ideal position to make a good bomb in any situation. That's what you mean, since you brought it up while arguing about this, but I figured it was worth just clarifying what you mean by 'glorious death'.

The concept of a glorious death is so vague and subject to interpretation, you're never get someone who will agree with that and frankly dying in a toolbox fight with someone is to some people that qualification. We've had two tournaments for charity focused on that very concept, it's a quality that is ingrained in the community as a sign of robustness.

What does it matter HOW you kill a bunch of people on your way out? Those people are dying either way. We already have had bans around the fact that someone detonated a bomb in a role that isn't able to murderbone, so I suspect even that might not be as concrete as you think. I'd rather this get ruled on, and if it is, and they're can't reasonably start a lot of violence, what the fuck are they meant to do if not just suicide (without the use of the verb) out an airlock because some people pissed their pants over someone doing their objective that is left intentionally vague.

If people are going to just use it to murderbone we should just remove it, its not like LRP follows objectives anyways.


Our code is shared across two different rulesets. Doing this is taking something away from the other servers to solve problems for the higher roleplay standard servers. It's basically admitting they don't matter and those players are playing the lesser ruleset, and the lesser game and aren't entitled to otherwise thematic content because of it. I don't believe it's fair on a very large portion of our playerbase to give justification to the idiots who spout about it being NoRP. We really will just start the degradation of those servers by working around them.

Would it matter? Not particularly, you're not entirely wrong about people doing whatever with antag, but it's the principle of the matter. Also setting a really fucking awful precedent.

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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby Cobby » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:47 am #569741

the code does not care about precedent, we removed/moved away from more embedded ss13 items than an objective made in the last couple of years to encourage less passive styles of play. We (at least I) do not care about their objectives considering they are largely treated optionally anyways.

Yes, its subjective, but Im only enabling that subjectivity through rule of cool and not through the actual murderbone rulelist anyways. Any murderbone to do this obj is still technically disallowed because it's not explicitly called out in the explicit "you can only do this when X applies" table. It's a weird approach to the argument that im having to defend this position rather than you having to argue the merits of including it in the table.
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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby BeeSting12 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:55 am #569743

Die a glorious death should be treated as a hijack
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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby Cobby » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:06 am #569744

As someone who plays manuel when I dont want to deal with career murderboners,Id rather not have a 20% per traitor objective be used as an excuse to just silently cull the station.
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PostThis post was deleted by Kassori on Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:17 am.

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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby Kassori » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:19 am #569746

It's not a double standard to limit murderboning behind rare objectives, it's a way to keep half of rounds from devolving into murderboning.
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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby NecromancerAnne » Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:52 am #569748

Cobby wrote:It's a weird approach to the argument that im having to defend this position rather than you having to argue the merits of including it in the table.


Lemme be real here. Our antags are hollow a fuck, so when we start punching out holes in the objectives, we're gonna run out of space eventually. But this one isn't necessarily an objective I'm going to lose sleep over if it was removed.

What I do have concerns about is that I legitimately don't see how placing any restrictions on the objective will do anybody any good other than make it really awkward when you need to figure out a way to kill yourself, while enjoying yourself in the role you've been given, in a unique capacity every time you get this random objective you have on control over, while also not walking yourself into a ban because what you chose wasn't allowed. If it comes to having to remove the objective entirely, whatever, but since we already have the objective to cull the station of life in existence, and that's hijack, it's a reality we are in already. And the only justification for that is the difficulty.

The proposition for 'Die Gloriously' is because it's thematically appropriate and contributes to the nihilistic themes of the role. That's really it actually. If that's not enough, whatever.

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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby Space Panda » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:15 am #569755

I belive it should be ok for murderbone when you have Glorious Death as long as your murderbone is the last thing you do before you die, like a suicide bomber or mass shooter.

Otherwise there isn't any reason for Glorious Death to exist as an objective.

also anne I liked your new pfp

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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby cybersaber101 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:26 am #569756

Even if it's rough and vague and messy, I'd rather have less mass murder on manuel.
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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby Space Panda » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:29 am #569757

Space Panda wrote:I belive it should be ok for murderbone when you have Glorious Death as long as your murderbone is the last thing you do before you die, like a suicide bomber or mass shooter.

Otherwise there isn't any reason for Glorious Death to exist as an objective.

also anne I liked your new pfp



also, not a big problem if the mass murder/suicide happens at the end of the round, since the people who got killed won't have to stay out of the game for very long

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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby NecromancerAnne » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:53 am #569759

I retract my statement about LRP.

Fuck them. They don't deserve shit.

But that's besides the point.

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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby wesoda25 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:15 am #569764

If you wanna save yourself numerous future headaches in which admins try and define a "glorious death", you should just call it a day and allow them to murderbone. Not ideal but whatever

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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby Stickymayhem » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:20 am #569773

Anne's right.

Mass murder is also really not that common on manuel.

If you want to fix this a code solution is the only option, there's no policy that can properly cover this.
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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby Sheodir » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:40 pm #569780

Just rename die a glorious death with something like "Survival is not expected - compensation is for your family only as agreed on the terms of our contract."

So the objective becomes "die" rather than "die in bombastic ways that can be rules lawyered to be murderbone"

EDIT: To be clear, this is me "solving" the problem put up by some people here, but even as a Manuel main I have no issue with people using this obj to go full lethal. Conflict isn't inherently a bad thing, specially if the person is creative about it.
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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby Cobby » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:45 pm #569781

Our current policy already covers this though?

if players are too creatively bankrupt, seeing the "die glorious" obj to mean you have to start killing off randos until you die like a literal barbarian, then yeah it should be removed/lower probability.

Is it really that hard to ask players who enjoy the "bragging rights" to being more RP than say bagil/terry to come up with a somewhat fun Idea in dying that doesnt result in "jump out of airlock to win" or "silently kill off the station because haha i have funny objective!"? Like really?

If I have to pick between "you just need to jump out of the airlock" or "you can silently kill off the station", im choosing the former.
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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby Space Panda » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:49 pm #569785

Cobby wrote:Our current policy already covers this though?

if players are too creatively bankrupt, seeing the "die glorious" obj to mean you have to start killing off randos until you die like a literal barbarian, then yeah it should be removed/lower probability.

Is it really that hard to ask players who enjoy the "bragging rights" to being more RP than say bagil/terry to come up with a somewhat fun Idea in dying that doesnt result in "jump out of airlock to win" or "silently kill off the station because haha i have funny objective!"? Like really?

If I have to pick between "you just need to jump out of the airlock" or "you can silently kill off the station", im choosing the former.


why have blob then? all it does is silently kill off the station

also, the traitor can be really creative with his glorious death, there is lots of room for roleplay. it's more about if the player chooses to be a boring fuck or if he uses the opportunity to do something crazy and different

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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby Space Panda » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:54 pm #569786

also what the fuck is people's problem with dying when the round is about to end (when there's a rp reason for them being killed, ofc)? you're not being forced to stay out of the game for long

even when they're not playing a role that can actually "win", there is still this meta mentality of survival = victory. A good roleplayer accepts their death, as long as it makes sense. If you're not being left out of the game for long, there's no reason to get pissed.
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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby saprasam » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:06 pm #569788

grits teeth
glorious death should be allowed to murderbone as long as they've completed their objectives on manuel, as the only way i can expect a person to get killed without having to oxytank or flame themselves is by going on a rampage and dying in style
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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby Cobby » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:00 pm #569790

Space Panda wrote:why have blob then? all it does is silently kill off the station

also, the traitor can be really creative with his glorious death, there is lots of room for roleplay. it's more about if the player chooses to be a boring fuck or if he uses the opportunity to do something crazy and different


yeah the majority-of-the-time nonmoving blob that has an announcement sent to the entire station after the round has progressed for an hour is picking off people like a traitor would. Stupid.

Thats not even considering the amount of time blob occurs versus the amount of times a traitor is made with this alleged license to murderbone obj.

I've already said im ok with casualties if it's to complete the objective like blowing yourself up with a huge bomb, that is different than "Im going to pick off people because dying after I murderboned is epic!". Surely we can agree, even if you think it might be hard to navigate, that there's a middle ground between not letting someone kill at all with the objective and license to just silently pick people off because that objective is in the magic table that lets me lol the station.

saprasam wrote:grits teeth
glorious death should be allowed to murderbone as long as they've completed their objectives on manuel, as the only way i can expect a person to get killed without having to oxytank or flame themselves is by going on a rampage and dying in style


So we agree that players are too creatively bankrupt to do anything but see the objective as "pick off people until i get caught and die, and because i killed people that constitutes glorious"?
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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby saprasam » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:06 pm #569791

Cobby wrote:snippy snippy logn time long time

i like murderboning and i'm creatively bankrupt too : - D
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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby cybersaber101 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:15 pm #569794

Space Panda wrote:why have blob then? all it does is silently kill off the station


Blobs being silent? you sure you've played much ss13? Blob is the opposite of silent, It's a huge antagonist generally around a locale who announces itself to the whole station causing widespread panic.
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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby Space Panda » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:57 pm #569800

cybersaber101 wrote:
Space Panda wrote:why have blob then? all it does is silently kill off the station


Blobs being silent? you sure you've played much ss13? Blob is the opposite of silent, It's a huge antagonist generally around a locale who announces itself to the whole station causing widespread panic.


I understood Cobby meant "silently killing off the station" as just murdering everybody without saying a word, which is the stereotype of the murderboning traitor.

The glorious muderbone suicide would be very loud, otherwise it wouldn't be glorious. It would be a big act of violence, causing panic and lots of damage.

Cobby wrote: snip


picking off people one by one while going in and back out of hiding isn't glorious. Glorious should be doing it in a way that announces your intentions to everyone, and trying to do the most damage at once before you get killed. It should be a single act of massive violence.

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Re: [Manuel] Glorious Death: Murderbone or No?

Postby Cobby » Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:44 am #569819

the greenlight to murderbone is what that would allow.
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