[MRP] What is powergame, exactly?

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NikoTheGuyDude
 
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2020 7:17 pm
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[MRP] What is powergame, exactly?

Postby NikoTheGuyDude » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:06 am #570872

Powergame is defined as "gearing up or preparing in other ways to face an issue that is not related to your job", but there's been a lot of discussion on manuel lately about powergame and what is and isn't powergame. For example, is robotics making mechs powergame? An assistant going to space every single round/lavaland every single round and coming back with gamer gear powergame? Is cargo ordering guns for no good reason except "we got money" powergame? Is xenobio making a sepia extract and holding onto it the entire round "just in case" powergame? (Science might just be powergame-the department) Is a scientist making a spin inverter, sticky taping it, and keeping it "just in case" powergame? (This results in whoever is stuck to it teleporting to the other spin inverter)

Even if the rule is clear and this is exactly your intention with it, as in allowing robo to make mechs just in case, cargo to order guns just in case, etc. I feel like an official statement would be a good idea to just set the record straight, because I've seen confusion between players and even admins.



annoyinggreencatgirl
 
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:55 pm
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Re: [MRP] What is powergame, exactly?

Postby annoyinggreencatgirl » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:37 am #570874

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powergaming

Powergaming (or power gaming) is a style of interacting with games or game-like systems, particularly video games, boardgames, and role-playing games, with the aim of maximising progress towards a specific goal. Other players may consider this disruptive when done to the exclusion of all other considerations, such as storytelling, atmosphere and camaraderie.


Minimizing effort to maximum something you want or your chances of getting it/doing it.

Making mechs takes a reasonable amount of effort and time, and your motivations to do so might be as benign as just wanting to learn the job.
Space exploring takes an amount of time, effort, and luck as well. But probably, if somebody has a habit of finding space loot and stirring the pot when they bring it back to the station they should be told to knock it off.

Is cargo ordering guns for no good reason except "we got money" powergame?
Non-antag guncargo is stupid and leads to the same unfun mess most of the time it happens, whether it fits the powergaming rule or not, I think a sane person would agree it should be a rare thing, not an every other shift thing.

Is xenobio making a sepia extract and holding onto it the entire round "just in case" powergame? (Science might just be powergame-the department) Is a scientist making a spin inverter, sticky taping it, and keeping it "just in case" powergame? (This results in whoever is stuck to it teleporting to the other spin inverter)
Again, like robotics, this is at least an example of an actual job on the station that requires time and effort and planning. There are probably some items that players in engineering and science should be expected not to rush and hoard every single round (like your spin inverter example), but in my mind, these are better more common examples of powergaming that have an impact on the atmosphere and quality of RP in rounds:

Non-antags incessantly hacking into places and nabbing things they supposedly """need""", instead of asking for them, finding alternatives, or just doing without.
Making improvised weapons for no reason.
Begging for access not included in your job every single shift, be it extensive access you have no RP reason to need or limited access solely to avail yourself to your favorite gamergear.
Security (Warden and HoS excepted) lugging around lethals ASAP for no reason.

The above are things that are to me against the spirit of fun and RPing as being an employee on a space station. They degrade actual good RP that comes in the form of cross department communication and cooperation, chain of command, fairness, and focusing on your job rather than preparing for eventual le epic click battle.

Early on when Manuel was new it wasn't crazy uncommon to walk into tool storage mid round and see a pair of insuls still just sitting there, and when I saw them, I'd think "eh, I really have no more reason to take those than did everyone else who left them alone."
I'd, in a heartbeat, trade the entirety of what Manuel has become to go back to that kind of atmosphere. Not going to happen, but oh well.

Timberpoes
 
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Re: [MRP] What is powergame, exactly?

Postby Timberpoes » Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:45 pm #570890

New RP ruleset additions state "8. Do not powergame. Powergaming is gearing up or preparing in other ways to face an issue that is not related to your job. A doctor stocking up on a massive amount of medical chemicals is fine, but an engineer grabbing weapons to defend themselves when there is no threat to them is powergaming."

The key thing I want to hone in on is "... to face an issue that is not related to your job."

How do the grey areas factor into this? Is a roboticist making a mech for themselves just because they can powergaming? How about going out of their way to get a bluespace anomaly core to make a Phazon? Once? Every round? Is a roboticist's job also to pilot mechs? What is an issue related to a roboticists job that would enable them to build and pilot one of their own mechs without it being powergamey?

What then happens if the roboticist makes a ton of mechs for security, calls security in one-by-one and gives everyone their own personal mech with their own personal loadout? Is preparing OTHER PEOPLE in ways to face an issue not related to YOUR JOB powergaming?

Can a security officer ask robotics to make them a mech? Once? Every round? Is there a material difference between a sec officer requesting a mech every round and a roboticist calling security to give them mechs every round? Is sec requesting mechs fine because law and order is related to a sec officer's job but a roboticist calling sec in without being prompted bad because law and order is nothing to do with robotics?

Does it matter what shift type it is? Is this powergaming on extended or sextended but fine on any other mode? Or the other way around?

Apply the same logic across other departments. Virology making their gamer pills and putting them in a public area - Is this powergaming to prepare the station for unforseen threats? Is it powergaming to go out of your way to pick up a public virus pill? Nanites? Genetics?

What about shaft miners? Is PvE part of their job? A miner comes back to the station fully kitted out for war, with armour, weapons and more. They ask science for a bluespace body bag to carry all their loot. Is this powergaming? Is using all they equipment they obtained to chase down antags powergaming? In what situation is using miner gamer gear not powergaming? Is going out of your way to get the megafauna gamer gear every round powergaming if the gamer gear is nothing to do with a miner's job?

At what point are you allowed to completely lock down and reinforce a department? Greytiders? Bombing traitors? At what point is Science allowed to replace all walls and doors with r-walls and allow access only via bluespace launchpads? At what point does the line get crossed from "reasonable response to a given set of events" to "powergaming"?

And the classic Manuel bwoink/ban - Is a Paramedic asking for the hand teleporter every round powergaming? The paramedic's job is to rescue people and bring them to medbay. It appears clear to me that, under this definition, obtaining the hand teleporter to do your job more effectively is actually not powergaming anymore, because the paramedic is preparing to face an issue related to their job (preparing to more efficiently bring injured people back to medbay).

This definition of powergaming raises a lot more questions than it does provide answers.

nianjiilical
 
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Re: [MRP] What is powergame, exactly?

Postby nianjiilical » Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:15 am #571034

Timberpoes wrote:How do the grey areas factor into this? Is a roboticist making a mech for themselves just because they can powergaming? How about going out of their way to get a bluespace anomaly core to make a Phazon? Once? Every round? Is a roboticist's job also to pilot mechs? What is an issue related to a roboticists job that would enable them to build and pilot one of their own mechs without it being powergamey?

What then happens if the roboticist makes a ton of mechs for security, calls security in one-by-one and gives everyone their own personal mech with their own personal loadout? Is preparing OTHER PEOPLE in ways to face an issue not related to YOUR JOB powergaming?


in this case i personally think its fine because building mechs is a part of what roboticists are expected to do, the same way it's fine if the chef wants to try to fill the station with pizzas or if atmos wants to try to do fusion; it's a part of the job and an obvious self-imposed challenge

Timberpoes wrote:Can a security officer ask robotics to make them a mech? Once? Every round? Is there a material difference between a sec officer requesting a mech every round and a roboticist calling security to give them mechs every round? Is sec requesting mechs fine because law and order is related to a sec officer's job but a roboticist calling sec in without being prompted bad because law and order is nothing to do with robotics?

Does it matter what shift type it is? Is this powergaming on extended or sextended but fine on any other mode? Or the other way around?


i think if someone plays sec specifically to get a mech every game and validhunt it's probably a bit powergamey, but sec and robotics co-operating is again something that makes natural sense; it shouldn't be powergaming for sec to go to robotics and say hey do you want to make securitrons and maybe a mech for us

Timberpoes wrote:Apply the same logic across other departments. Virology making their gamer pills and putting them in a public area - Is this powergaming to prepare the station for unforseen threats? Is it powergaming to go out of your way to pick up a public virus pill? Nanites? Genetics?


no because again its the 'correct' job gameplay to make these things to benefit the crew, which honestly could be seen as a flaw of virology since the entire job consists of either making a god virus if nonantag or murdering everybody if antag

Timberpoes wrote:What about shaft miners? Is PvE part of their job? A miner comes back to the station fully kitted out for war, with armour, weapons and more. They ask science for a bluespace body bag to carry all their loot. Is this powergaming? Is using all they equipment they obtained to chase down antags powergaming? In what situation is using miner gamer gear not powergaming? Is going out of your way to get the megafauna gamer gear every round powergaming if the gamer gear is nothing to do with a miner's job?


again this is a flaw with miners as a whole, but a miner shouldn't be penalized just for getting gamer gear since that's just a part of the job; once the station's stocked on mats all there is to do is get loot. you could argue it'd be powergaming to go hunt dragons without at least trying to keep the station stocked up though

Timberpoes wrote:At what point are you allowed to completely lock down and reinforce a department? Greytiders? Bombing traitors? At what point is Science allowed to replace all walls and doors with r-walls and allow access only via bluespace launchpads? At what point does the line get crossed from "reasonable response to a given set of events" to "powergaming"?


i mean if nuke ops declare war i wouldnt call it powergaming to reinforce, this is probably a case by case thing that needs specific examples but in general if you arent engineers you probably shouldnt be going around rwalling, and even then it should probably be at heads discretion

Timberpoes wrote:And the classic Manuel bwoink/ban - Is a Paramedic asking for the hand teleporter every round powergaming? The paramedic's job is to rescue people and bring them to medbay. It appears clear to me that, under this definition, obtaining the hand teleporter to do your job more effectively is actually not powergaming anymore, because the paramedic is preparing to face an issue related to their job (preparing to more efficiently bring injured people back to medbay).


imho this should not be bwoinkworthy since in proper rp the heads should be expected to debate whether or not giving such a valuable and sensitive piece of equipment to a paramedic and thats a good rp thing

t. terry player
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highly unrobust xenobiology/medbay slut


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