Is breaking into bolted dorms rooms to check for antags legal.

pugie · Post by **pugie** » Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:31 pm #584338

I ahelped about this, as a player on Terry broke into a bolted dorms room and stole the syndicate gear of a player that bought a surplus crate. Said player was aware the person in the dorms room was using their PDA so they broke in. I was told there should be a policy post about this by the admin on at the time and I agree, at what point is it ok to break into dorms to validhunt if ever. I'd say it falls under using metainfo, but is it against the rules to mention the fact someone is using PDA in dorms on comms, or just breaking in to steal their gear. Is it ok to use them having been to dorms to arrest them later too etcetera, or is it only OK when the player used a PDA because of players being allowed to be aware of all OOC mechanics.

Please share your thoughts.

wesoda25 · Post by **wesoda25** » Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:34 pm #584340

People who do this are the worst. One time on manuel of all places I saw an officer running around with a door remote and immediately checking any room that was bolted. Gross

Tlaltecuhtli · Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:35 pm

if you have a reason to break into a bolted room (cult confirmed) yes, if you see man go in there and break in no

Sparkezel · Post by **Sparkezel** » Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:37 pm #584342

If an antag leaves his gear in a public place like dorms I feel like its their fault that their items got looted.

SkeletalElite · Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:30 pm

If you're gonna buy something super conspicuous you should go in a nice little maint room instead. Everyone breaks in bolteed dorms doors, not even just to get antags, it's a bad spot.

Post by **Armhulen** » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:33 pm #584348

I feel like after 9 years of dorms being the "buy a surplus spot" people should be a little more creative with their placement

Post by **Misdoubtful** » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:53 pm #584349

Armhulen wrote:I feel like after 9 years of dorms being the "buy a surplus spot" people should be a little more creative with their placement

God. This. If people are going to do the same tactic over years, is it really a shocker that it'd become a routine thing to consider? Knowing antags use PDAs to get gear and would want to do so someplace isolated like dorms for surplus crates makes sense to me.

That said it'd still be just as crappy as running through a laundry lists of antag checks to oust someone as an antagonist. Jumping on something for raising suspicion without having evidence is lame. That'd be like antag checking someone for being in maint near sec, but instead you are replacing sec maint with dorms.

All that considered though, what can be expected for picking such an obvious and well known spot?

Is dorms something that should really be protected for antags?

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:58 pm #584352

I break into bolted dorm rooms to beat the shit out of ERPers, who the fuck does it to validhunt antags?

kopoba · Post by **kopoba** » Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:59 pm #584353

If i see bolted door in dorms what would i think? Yep. ERP in progress!

Post by **Armhulen** » Fri Dec 18, 2020 9:26 pm #584362

Misdoubtful wrote:
Armhulen wrote:I feel like after 9 years of dorms being the "buy a surplus spot" people should be a little more creative with their placement
God. This. If people are going to do the same tactic over years, is it really a shocker that it'd become a routine thing to consider? Knowing antags use PDAs to get gear and would want to do so someplace isolated like dorms for surplus crates makes sense to me.

That said it'd still be just as crappy as running through a laundry lists of antag checks to oust someone as an antagonist. Jumping on something for raising suspicion without having evidence is lame. That'd be like antag checking someone for being in maint near sec, but instead you are replacing sec maint with dorms.

All that considered though, what can be expected for picking such an obvious and well known spot?

Is dorms something that should really be protected for antags?

>buy a surplus anywhere else
>people discover you and your round ends

>buy a surplus in dorms
>admins will protect you so you can no longer be caught buying stuff

this is why we cannot protect the dorms with admin punishments, plain and simple

XivilaiAnaxes · Fri Dec 18, 2020 10:38 pm

I remember a long time ago (back when manuel was just sybil) as HoS I had the AI unbolt a dorm room 2 minutes into the round once.

It was funny as fuck just to see the guy's reaction to me looking at him and his fucking C4 bag lying on the floor.

I let him go because it just wouldn't be fair on him to have his antag round thrown into the trashcan because I cheesed him in a dorm room.

He ended up coming back to the station (I think he went off to space ruins after he did his objectives) to help fight off a malf AI in exchange for a pardon.

Good times.

skoglol · Post by **skoglol** » Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:43 pm #584376

I frequently see silicons and security check bolted dorm rooms just because they are bolted, as if the bolting wasnt an intended function of the room. I dont do antag stuff in there, for reasons mentioned earlier in the thread, but I have definetely gotten in trouble for having contraband on me and being afk in dorms for a few minutes. This is fucking retarded and I will ahelp it every time it happens as its basically random searching, which is against our rules.
If a validhunting assistant does it its basically the same thing.

SkeletalElite · Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:48 pm

skoglol wrote:I frequently see silicons and security check bolted dorm rooms just because they are bolted, as if the bolting wasnt an intended function of the room. I dont do antag stuff in there, for reasons mentioned earlier in the thread, but I have definetely gotten in trouble for having contraband on me and being afk in dorms for a few minutes. This is fucking retarded and I will ahelp it every time it happens as its basically random searching, which is against our rules.
If a validhunting assistant does it its basically the same thing.

Except if an assistant does it, it's not searching it's called getting mugged

cacogen · Post by **cacogen** » Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:05 am #584379

Bolted doors draw attention, especially in the dorms. People are curious what they're being excluded from. Don't spawn traitor items in places people are likely to break into if you don't want to be found. Low traffic areas assistants don't have access to are underrated.

skoglol wrote:I have definetely gotten in trouble for having contraband on me and being afk in dorms for a few minutes

I still think there needs to be a code solution to going AFK that makes it harder to get at people's inventories. Locking yourself in a personal locker is stupid. Sleepers the HoS/captain can access, the crew can break into with effort and antags can access with the right item or ability would be better.

Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:30 am

The realest of kickers are those people who smash open claimed lockers in dorms as a security officer.

I had one do it to a locker I stashed my extra clothing in and they left it all on the floor. I only knew they did it because I arrived to them doing it. He was looking for antag stuff I guess.

Nabski · Post by **Nabski** » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:13 am #584397

I could have sworn there was a "probable cause is not bolted door in dorms" part of the security rules but I can't find it.

Post by **JusticeGoat** » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:14 am #584398

if i saw sec doing it before the automated blue alert announcement there would be hell to pay.

skoglol · Post by **skoglol** » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:17 am #584399

SkeletalElite wrote:
skoglol wrote:If a validhunting assistant does it its basically the same thing.
Except if an assistant does it, it's not searching it's called getting mugged

If they are hunting valids, it isn't just a mugging.

SkeletalElite · Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:51 am

skoglol wrote:
SkeletalElite wrote:
skoglol wrote:If a validhunting assistant does it its basically the same thing.
Except if an assistant does it, it's not searching it's called getting mugged
If they are hunting valids, it isn't just a mugging.

Yeah but if you're just mugging someone and they just so happen to have antag stuff and you valid them you just got escalated on.
So any assisstant with half a brain can hide behind mugging.

Post by **JusticeGoat** » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:02 am #584409

SkeletalElite wrote:
skoglol wrote:
SkeletalElite wrote:
skoglol wrote:If a validhunting assistant does it its basically the same thing.
Except if an assistant does it, it's not searching it's called getting mugged
If they are hunting valids, it isn't just a mugging.
Yeah but if you're just mugging someone and they just so happen to have antag stuff and you valid them you just got escalated on.
So any assisstant with half a brain can hide behind mugging.

Would NT hire criminals who would mug their own workforce, i say that is fail rp and should get the boot. The syndicate gets away with it because they are deep cover sleeper agents who get activated after being carefully placed in the company who have clean backgrounds.

cacogen · Post by **cacogen** » Sat Dec 19, 2020 2:38 am #584411

The assistant job is there to weed out the criminals they've inadvertently hired

Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:50 am

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why nobody plays security but do play assistant. Most of the rules deal witg security doing the validhunting shittery.

One could call it...a grey area in the rules.

Tlaltecuhtli · Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:10 am

NecromancerAnne wrote:And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why nobody plays security but do play assistant. Most of the rules deal witg security doing the validhunting shittery.

One could call it...a grey area in the rules.

with*

Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:01 am

I will make as many typos as I please. As is my right as a phone poster.

pugie · Post by **pugie** » Sat Dec 19, 2020 1:09 pm #584441

Armhulen makes a valid point.
When you have the whole station and space you can basically buy anywhere and have your shit not be found.

Mickyan · Post by **Mickyan** » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:07 pm #584446

Imagine turning dorms into the best corpse hiding spot because if someone breaks down the door they get banned

People that are so lazy and predictable should not be getting a free pass from getting caught. If someone's going around constantly checking locked rooms when there's nothing going on it's another story.

Also last time this came up people were unironically arguing that if you find an empty crate in dorms you shouldn't check it for prints because it's not suspicious

Nabski · Post by **Nabski** » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:14 pm #584447

NecromancerAnne wrote:And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why nobody plays security but do play assistant. Most of the rules deal witg security doing the validhunting shittery.

One could call it...a grey area in the rules.

Assistants never started with tasers which could one click fuck almost every antag unless they bought the counter to it.

RIP tasers I don't miss you at all so you were so powerful.

terranaut · Post by **terranaut** » Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:14 pm #584448

NecromancerAnne wrote:I will make as many typos as I please. As is my right as a phone poster.

phone posters have no rights.

Post by **Misdoubtful** » Sat Dec 19, 2020 5:01 pm #584453

So. Validhunting dorms rooms because someone might be buying in one is lame, but expecting them to protected and safe is lame x2.

Does it matter if its sec or an assistant doing it? The result is the same.

No place is safe, and random searching is already protected against in the rules, specifically in 4. as "non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause".

Doesn't this already provide a solution to this? Its not about dorms, its about pre-emptive searches that get pointed at the dorms. Don't let the area get in the way of the real problem and cause here. The bigger picture solution to this is something thats already written in policy.

Screemonster · Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:51 pm

code solution: add bathroom cubicles to the map all over the fucking station in like every department and make the doors lockable so there are boltholes literally everywhere and not just the dorms which are in a centralised location, this would make "aha this is the spot to buy your gamer gear, therefore I will check this spot at roundstart" metagaming impractical

alternatively add a traitor item that sets off a fuckin murdergas cloud when exposed to light or something - open dorm, kill light, toss in grenade, close and bolt door, wait for some motherfucker to break in and get fuckin gassed

Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:51 pm

The main reason why people buy in dorms is mostly because maint access is only available to a small fraction of the crew. There aren't many ideal locations that are discreet enough to purchase stuff on the main parts of the station.

Sat Dec 19, 2020 10:39 pm

NecromancerAnne wrote:The main reason why people buy in dorms is mostly because maint access is only available to a small fraction of the crew. There aren't many ideal locations that are discreet enough to purchase stuff on the main parts of the station.

Yeah, assistant mains are really telling on themselves in here.

teepeepee · Post by **teepeepee** » Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:36 pm #584496

you can do it on any room and just snip the bolt wire, problem solved

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Anyone who breaks into a dorm room because they heard a PDA go bippety boop inside should get a slap. Unless we make all traitor gear including surplus crates beam directly into your backpack, traitors sometimes *need* a quiet spot nobody will be looking in for a few minutes to sort their stuff out, and most departments arent conducive to that with the current design philosophy of big open departments filled with windows.

cacogen · Post by **cacogen** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:31 am #584523

If a door's bolted I believe I have a right to discover any ERP that may be occurring. If you're trying to be slick be slicker than a six year old

SkeletalElite · Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:39 am

RaveRadbury wrote:
NecromancerAnne wrote:The main reason why people buy in dorms is mostly because maint access is only available to a small fraction of the crew. There aren't many ideal locations that are discreet enough to purchase stuff on the main parts of the station.
Yeah, assistant mains are really telling on themselves in here.

Everyone has access to the maint doors in their department (doctors med maint, scientists sci maint, ect.) I can't think of any job that doesn't have access to ANY maint doors, although maybe chaplain doesn't have much place to hide in their maint area, but chaplains office is already super private, just cut a cam or go in the confession chamber.

confused rock · Sun Dec 20, 2020 5:40 am

iamgoofball wrote:I break into bolted dorm rooms to beat the shit out of ERPers, who the fuck does it to validhunt antags?

cacogen · Post by **cacogen** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:08 am #584553

Exactly. People are going to break into bolted rooms out of curiosity. Spawn your crate without drawing needless attention to yourself.

Dorms could be given reinforced walls and protected wire airlocks to offer more security to AFKers and unimaginative traitors but I think the idea would be contentious for whatever reason.

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:48 am

Ultimately, a sealed or reinforced room is seen as a challenge and not a deterrent. And even if it takes an extremely long time, someone will either opt to start cutting into that room the slow way, or they'll fake it to get the person inside to come out the fast way and still get to ambush them. A reinforced room is equally a tomb as it is a bunker.

Screemonster · Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:13 am

make the dorm doors start with the bolt light wires cut so you have to physically check the door to see if it's bolted instead of just walking past, if people start running around shoving all the doors at or near roundstart it'll be obvious that they're actively antag-checking and not just seeing a set of bolt lights and getting curious

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 1:51 pm #584574

Screemonster wrote:make the dorm doors start with the bolt light wires cut so you have to physically check the door to see if it's bolted instead of just walking past, if people start running around shoving all the doors at or near roundstart it'll be obvious that they're actively antag-checking and not just seeing a set of bolt lights and getting curious

Yeah but now if I'm looking to beat up ERPers I have to check every dorm room instead of just the bolted ones

cacogen · Post by **cacogen** » Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:59 pm #584603

NecromancerAnne wrote:Ultimately, a sealed or reinforced room is seen as a challenge and not a deterrent.

The idea is that it discourages people because the weak point becomes the airlock instead of the wall, which takes longer and is a pain in the ass to break through. It also gives the occupant more time to hide what they're doing than the time between hearing a welder and the wall being replaced with a girder. It's not meant to be impregnable, just require more time, energy and tools.

ShibaInuLord · Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:39 pm

what if you just didnt bolt the door as antag

confused rock · Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:42 pm

if we make it meta that antags know that nobody will check a dorm room because it's against the rules, that's a ridiculous, stupid problem that leads to more meta than the alternative.

cacogen · Post by **cacogen** » Mon Dec 21, 2020 4:16 am #584639

ShibaInuLord wrote:what if you just didnt bolt the door as antag

Yeah, this is an option so obvious it goes without saying and reminds me of hiding in open buildings in Urban Dead but then someone can innocently walk in on you.

kopoba · Post by **kopoba** » Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:20 am #584655

Also i always check dorms to get shiny space or USA or clown or corgy blanket

Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:02 am

this problem would ideally be solved by making more isolated spaces where a non-antagonist crew member would frequently have to go

saprasam · Post by **saprasam** » Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:00 pm #584695

once again another reminder of why you do not buy surplus crates in dorms like a donkey

wesoda25 wrote:People who do this are the worst. One time on manuel of all places I saw an officer running around with a door remote and immediately checking any room that was bolted. Gross

cringe

FloranOtten · Post by **FloranOtten** » Mon Dec 21, 2020 9:19 pm #584701

Yeah, we all hate validhunters. Getting caught because Grey Tide was checking rooms obsessively is shit. But is this better?

How would it feel if there was a cult/heretic/traitor in that room (undetected till now) and nobody was allowed to see your body in there? You've now created an entirely safe cult base spot.

How shit would it be if antags could just toss victims in a bolted dorm room and be assured they will never be found? (Or found when they're utterly ridiculous to revive, given a timed limit on bolted rooms).

A confirmed traitor/wizard is on the station? They're safe in dorms. You're effectively betting you'll find said traitor in that dorm room against getting banned. Alternatively, if you classify "nobody can find the traitor" as a good enough reason to searc a dorm room, you're now voiding this rule entirely the moment any traitor/ling/whatever is confirmed.

Seriously. Learn to hide your shit. If you get caught with your pants down in dorms, that sucks. It really does. But don't sit here crying that it's failRP because you got caught.

Post by **Cobby** » Tue Dec 22, 2020 6:52 am #584727

Doing it for the explicit purpose of finding antags *****WITHOUT REASON**** is shit. Doing it for NO reason, even if not for the explicit purpose of antag hunting, is shit but prob for a different thread. This does not apply exclusively to any location.

There is no point in arguing in breaking into it if you have reason, you are wasting everyone's time having to read your post. This is pretty much intended to be explicitly for doing it without reason.

Armhulen wrote:I feel like after 9 years of dorms being the "buy a surplus spot" people should be a little more creative with their placement

I feel like after 9 years of trying to play for kills on a roleplaying atmossimulator to the point we had to make a server with a complete 180 of how we previously viewed the game people should be a little more considerate of the environment being created on LRP but here we are trying to explain how you cant just koolaid man your way through every obstacle because of a hypothetical that an ANTAG (wee woo neuron activation) might be on the other side.