[MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

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[MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MortoSasye » #610948

When and where this incident occured (Game Server, forums, Discord): Discord and the Game Server.
Byond account and character name OR Discord name: MortoSasye / Rhaplanca#0003
Admin: MrAlphonzo / Keyboard Commando#4315
Detailed summary:

Due to some key aspects of this complaint taking place in #adminbus, an on-topic channel for discussion of administrative issues, I will post some images from there to explain each point. I will censor the affected player name since this information is not public yet.

This all started in the previously mentioned channel over discord. I participated in an event with some fellow admins, one of those being Jaredfogle (Mothblocks). I had to leave the event early since it went past what I expected, and I had to go do some work stuff before I went to sleep- however, I catched sight of something going on. I pinged Mothblocks on discord to ask what happened:
Spoiler:
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Which leads to us discussing a player planned actions during the event, and discussing their previous history. I decided to handle it, but since the issue at hand was very delicate, and we needed the input of the event lead who was currently absent (sacko), I decided to go sleep on it instead after discussing the possible actions to take with the admins Mothblocks (wobbly), Vekter, Timberpoes(Grade-A-Redditor) and Cobby(MSO's femboy ?ritish lover), with some appreciated input from the maintainer Potato (These are their discord names).
Spoiler:
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This is where I depart, and Alphonzo shortly comes in. He wasn't involved during the event, his only connection to the player being for another unrelated rule. He displayed a lack of care for the fact I was handling it with input from the rest, and decided he was going to handle it by permabanning them, all while behaving in a hostile manner towards the rest and displaying signs of not having read at all the previous discussion. The pink square would be the unrelated rule:
Spoiler:
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Fast forward to me, and others involved, waking up this morning to see the player permabanned, with the added factor of the banning admin not caring at all for the necessary input of the event lead for this incident, and his input showing (as expected) a high degree of relevance for the final ruling.

The following Admin Conduct rules were broken from https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Admin_Conduct:
Don't interfere with another admin's ban or adminhelp unless requested. Feel free to point out important missed details or useful information however. Higher-ranked admins are encouraged to advise and guide other admins, but overruling someone else's ban falls to the headmins.

Maintain professional conduct both in game and outside of the game. It is expected that you take the position seriously. This doesn't mean you can't talk casually to the playerbase, but remain professional on the forums, as well as on other Space Station 13 communities.
I invite those involved to give their opinions below too, since I feel that besides my equivalent of an admin help/ruling being overruled by someone not involved while I was sleeping, others opinions were stepped over too without any care.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by Sacko » #610951

Hello,

I would like to start this post by thanking morto for handing this matter very kind of her to do so. What I am saying is going to be a rehashing of what was previously stated for the most part without all of the discord conversations of course. The main thing is I wish alphonzo waited at least until I was able to wake up before pulling the trigger on this ban. I can see where he is coming from with it. He has a very take out the trash style of handling administrative matters which I can appreciate. Permabanning someone takes a lot of guts and is something I am afraid of doing. Thankfully I haven't had to but it will be a bridge that will be crossed very soon I expect. But still Alphonzo seemed to be unaware that I was the one who gave direct permission for this act to be put on the roster. In my defence it was the last act I took. The files were sent to me only 2 days before the show began. I was handling the organization aspect of this all by myself. The mapping and coding I got a great deal of support with but all of the updating and act wrangling was my doing. I hope there isn't any hard feelings for me expressing this opinion. I hold alphonzo in very high regard for his continued dedication to this community but it would be a bold faced lie to say this was the ideal outcome. Thank you all for making the talent show the best it could be. It would be silly to expect there not to be any hiccups and this is a fairly minor one in my opinion. But the headmins are all aware and I hope this complaint can get resolved quickly and painlessly. I will be keeping tabs on this forum if anyone has any responses to this post but for now I am out of things to say.

Happy gaming TG.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by Timberpoes » #610952

Since I've been mentioned, I will add the following info:

The shift was Bagil #167826. For administrative purposes, the asay logs for the event are available on as part of our admin-only raw logs.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MrAlphonzo » #610959

For the record, I read all of the admin discussion leading up to 1:16 AM EST while I was waiting for Cobby to finish writing an extensively long message in adminbus, and continued discussing it with multiple maintainers well into the night.

I was aware there was a possibility for the event host being responsible for giving them the go ahead to break the rules, but given ATHATH's history, and the fact that bug exploits are taken far more seriously than other rule violations, I thought it best to cut off his access to the server before he'd do something like this:
Banned from the server for 1 month - [Common] Bob Bobson says, "I have the power to LAG THE STATION AT WILL, GODS" [Common] Bob Bobson says, "NOT UNTIL THE ADMINS GIVE US OUR SANT" | holding the server hostage by lagging it out to get what they want, OOC in IC
again, rather than leave him to his devices for an entire night, where staff would likely not be available.

I've already lifted the ban and edited the note accordingly, as I have no intention of contesting it, since he is not at fault.

Had it been any other type of rule being broken and the team would be waiting for clarification in the morning, I would have no issue with it, but I did not think it a good idea to leave someone with such a checkered history specifically revolving around exploits to be on the loose when all signs pointed to them, and the idea that an administrator would give a player permission to share an exploit being not only incredibly far-fetched, but completely unheard of.
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wesoda25 wrote: i love alphonzo and he can be a lot of fun but bro you need to get laid come on
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by Mothblocks » #610964

I've slept on this and I'm inclined to agree that, if any action was going to be taken, it should've waited until after both Sacko was online and for head admins to make a call.

mod edit: removed the part of the post related to ATHATH.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MortoSasye » #610965

MrAlphonzo wrote: Had it been any other type of rule being broken and the team would be waiting for clarification in the morning, I would have no issue with it, but I did not think it a good idea to leave someone with such a checkered history specifically revolving around exploits to be on the loose when all signs pointed to them, and the idea that an administrator would give a player permission to share an exploit being not only incredibly far-fetched, but completely unheard of.
This is the issue: it was not your decision to make. If you felt so strongly, you could have perfectly asked the headmins to do so, not step over something I was handling with other admins, with no care for our input because in your own words you thought it was better to do it the other way.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MrAlphonzo » #610967

MortoSasye wrote:
MrAlphonzo wrote: Had it been any other type of rule being broken and the team would be waiting for clarification in the morning, I would have no issue with it, but I did not think it a good idea to leave someone with such a checkered history specifically revolving around exploits to be on the loose when all signs pointed to them, and the idea that an administrator would give a player permission to share an exploit being not only incredibly far-fetched, but completely unheard of.
This is the issue: it was not your decision to make. If you felt so strongly, you could have perfectly asked the headmins to do so, not step over something I was handling with other admins, with no care for our input because in your own words you thought it was better to do it the other way.
You act as if I didn't discuss the issue with the codermins and maintainers you entrusted with the issue when you went to sleep, and it shows in your screenshots, as you spent more time in the complaint posting screenshots of jokes I made, trying to make them into malicious hostility, and leave out nigh entirely the actual conversation I had with the codermins.
Jaredfogle wrote:I've slept on this and I'm inclined to agree that, if any action was going to be taken, it should've waited until after both Sacko was online and for head admins to make a call.

I said this in the bus conversations as well with Cobby, I wanted to know what ATHATH told Sacko their act would be. On the spreadsheet we all got, ATH's entry was blank, and I still don't really know why that was. My judgment was (and seemed to be in line with Cobby's)--if he said that he was showing off an exploit, then I'm more just ticked off that it was approved.
I just want it on the record that when the deed was done your only words were "Alphonzo, based as fuck."
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Spoiler:
wesoda25 wrote: i love alphonzo and he can be a lot of fun but bro you need to get laid come on
oranges wrote:
Misdoubtful wrote:We're all friends here.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MortoSasye » #610969

MrAlphonzo wrote:
MortoSasye wrote:
MrAlphonzo wrote: Had it been any other type of rule being broken and the team would be waiting for clarification in the morning, I would have no issue with it, but I did not think it a good idea to leave someone with such a checkered history specifically revolving around exploits to be on the loose when all signs pointed to them, and the idea that an administrator would give a player permission to share an exploit being not only incredibly far-fetched, but completely unheard of.
This is the issue: it was not your decision to make. If you felt so strongly, you could have perfectly asked the headmins to do so, not step over something I was handling with other admins, with no care for our input because in your own words you thought it was better to do it the other way.
You act as if I didn't discuss the issue with the codermins and maintainers you entrusted with the issue when you went to sleep, and it shows in your screenshots, as you spent more time in the complaint posting screenshots of jokes I made, trying to make them into malicious hostility, and leave out nigh entirely the actual conversation I had with the codermins.
You discussed it- and then throwed all of their opinions, and the previous discussion to the trash, because you thought as said previously that you knew better than all of us. I want to remind you of this guideline in the Admin Conduct page:
If you're unsure about something, ask your fellow admins for opinions in game and on adminbus. If there is lots of disagreement over an issue, ask a Head Admin for clarification.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by Mothblocks » #610970

I just want it on the record that when the deed was done your only words were "Alphonzo, based as fuck."
Yeah--that's what I meant by I slept on it, that was at 3 in the morning and I shouldn't have. ?
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MortoSasye » #610975

I also will go ahead and post the ban reason to further display that Alphonzo rushed into this:
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MrAlphonzo » #610982

MortoSasye wrote:
MrAlphonzo wrote:
MortoSasye wrote:
MrAlphonzo wrote: Had it been any other type of rule being broken and the team would be waiting for clarification in the morning, I would have no issue with it, but I did not think it a good idea to leave someone with such a checkered history specifically revolving around exploits to be on the loose when all signs pointed to them, and the idea that an administrator would give a player permission to share an exploit being not only incredibly far-fetched, but completely unheard of.
This is the issue: it was not your decision to make. If you felt so strongly, you could have perfectly asked the headmins to do so, not step over something I was handling with other admins, with no care for our input because in your own words you thought it was better to do it the other way.
You act as if I didn't discuss the issue with the codermins and maintainers you entrusted with the issue when you went to sleep, and it shows in your screenshots, as you spent more time in the complaint posting screenshots of jokes I made, trying to make them into malicious hostility, and leave out nigh entirely the actual conversation I had with the codermins.
You discussed it- and then throwed all of their opinions, and the previous discussion to the trash, because you thought as said previously that you knew better than all of us. I want to remind you of this guideline in the Admin Conduct page:
If you're unsure about something, ask your fellow admins for opinions in game and on adminbus. If there is lots of disagreement over an issue, ask a Head Admin for clarification.
At the time, both Mothblocks and Cobby were in agreement with me that action should be taken, and reading the conversation from start to finish it certainly looked like you had passed the issue onto them, the thing that most gave off that appearance was when mothblocks pinged you saying "we'll figure it out" and you were obviously okay with them to continue without you.

If I was so intent on going on a crusade, I'd be arguing tooth and nail to keep the ban up. It was a precautionary measure I took when the codermins you gave the go ahead to continue discussion without you came to the same conclusion I did.

I had already lifted the ban as soon as the event host notified me they gave the player in question permission, well before I was even aware of the complaint thread.
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wesoda25 wrote: i love alphonzo and he can be a lot of fun but bro you need to get laid come on
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MortoSasye » #610989

We were discussing it together as a team, and we also agreed to wait on sacko response and handle it later.

This is honestly just running around the fact that you rushed into banning someone without any care for the rest, or the details, and now going back into reading everything that helps into playing it like you did for the sake of trying to justify your actions.

I won't keep discussing the same fact, unless something new is brought up.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MrAlphonzo » #610991

MortoSasye wrote:going back into reading everything that helps into playing it like you did for the sake of trying to justify your actions.
Are you really taking "reviewing events related to a complaint to make sure my statements are accurate" and turning it into something malicious?
You purposefully leave out the conversations I had with them in your screenshots, then accuse me of twisting the truth for the crime of going back and making sure my facts are straight before making a statement in a complaint thread.
If I was just going to rush in and take care of it myself I wouldn't have even bothered to discuss it with your "team." Some kind of consensus you must've had since mothblocks, who was there with you, only had to say "based as fuck." when I did the deed.

Your personal grudge is shamelessly plastered all over this complaint.
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Spoiler:
wesoda25 wrote: i love alphonzo and he can be a lot of fun but bro you need to get laid come on
oranges wrote:
Misdoubtful wrote:We're all friends here.
What fucking planet are you living on
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MortoSasye » #610993

This doesn't have anything to do with your previous harassment of me during a round; as that was already handled by the head admins. It's pointless to bring it here. This complaint was made after I woke up to someone breaking multiple admin conduct rules, and banning a player without caring for the details that would weight into if the ban was valid or not.

There is nothing else to discuss that hasn't been discussed already so I won't say more than that.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by Armhulen » #611061

This topic is shifting away from the content of the admin complaint and into the realm of ATHATH's ban, which is not relevant to the complaint other than the fact "that it happened" which is not being debated. I'm going to clean up some posts, remove some soapboxing here and there, but more importantly from here on out let's keep the discussion to be revolving what happened in the discord channel
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by Vekter » #611080

I'm posting here as I was involved heavily in the discussion when Alphonzo came into things.

The suggestion had been made that we should speak to the player in question and give him an ultimatum regarding their behavior, but the main sticking point was that we were waiting for Sacko to come back online to further discuss the matter with them since they were directly involved.

At no point in time did anyone consider ATHATH to be an immediate threat to the server, nor did anyone but Alphonzo show any anger or insistence to ban them immediately without going through Sacko or, at the very least, the headmins.

I feel like the rest of this might be peanut, so Arm's more than welcome to snip this out.

I think it's clear that Alphonzo's actions were out of anger and do not show the proper respect for the server in general. While I appreciate his insistence that we need to remove bad actors from the server (and normally agree that getting wrapped up in bureaucracy impedes that) it's obvious that is not the case here as there wasn't any urgency to the situation. I agree with the ban in general, but Alphonzo's behavior was out of line.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MrAlphonzo » #611081

As I stated earlier, we were all in agreement that if he had done it without the event host's approval, it was a bannable offense, and if he didn't, he could not be held accountable.

There are plenty of instances where a ban of indeterminate length is applied while the facts are straightened out. There is precedent. It seemed like a good time to do it, as not only was ATHATH going out of his way to share exploits, as we later learned an admin gave him the okay to do so, which in all likelihood could give him the idea that it was not just approved for the event, but okay behavior in any round.

I am at fault for not wanting someone to hop onto the servers, in the middle of the night, where there would likely be no staff, and he would be able to share whatever the hell he wanted with nothing to impede him. In my time on staff, exploiting the code has been among the most serious issues.

I was already in agreement with the majority consensus that if he was given permission to share an exploit, he could not be held accountable for that and responsibility would fall on the administrator who hosted the event.

I woke up, the event host told me he got permission, and I lifted it. No questions asked. No arguing. No gun to my head. Didn't even get to read this thread, let alone learn of it.
It was better to be safe than sorry, precautionary.

If this was out of malice, anger, hatred, or whatever malicious idea you can think of, I'd be arguing tooth and nail to keep the ban.

I seem to be the only person here who is aware that ATHATH was not banned for more than 8 hours.
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Spoiler:
wesoda25 wrote: i love alphonzo and he can be a lot of fun but bro you need to get laid come on
oranges wrote:
Misdoubtful wrote:We're all friends here.
What fucking planet are you living on
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by Sacko » #611087

Honestly the admins involved in the event knew that I gave athat permission to do his thing. I gave them all the files like 4 hours before we pulled his act. You shouldn't have rushed into a situation you had no part in. There were plenty of admins with much more context saying that they would handle this. It wasn't your ban brother.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MrAlphonzo » #611912

[2021-08-15 01:27:11.660] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: MortoSasye/(MortoSasye) "not admining since I'm a judge" (start area (8,174,1))
You didn't handle the issue in-game. When you went into adminbus, the person who was actually handling the issue from the start, mothblocks, explained it to you, and you went to bed a few minutes later.

This was not YOUR issue. It was Mothblocks issue from the start. They were the one who caught onto what ATHATH was trying to do, gave their act the axe, and even explained to you what happened.

Mothblocks was 100% okay with me getting involved, and 100% okay with the permaban I applied. Have they since changed their mind? Yes, but what they said in the future does not change what they said in the past and how it affected my decision making.

The same admin policy you are trying to cite against me
Don't interfere with another admin's ban or adminhelp unless requested. Feel free to point out important missed details or useful information however. Higher-ranked admins are encouraged to advise and guide other admins, but overruling someone else's ban falls to the headmins.

Maintain professional conduct both in game and outside of the game. It is expected that you take the position seriously. This doesn't mean you can't talk casually to the playerbase, but remain professional on the forums, as well as on other Space Station 13 communities.
just gives me a rock solid defense.

You did not make this complaint over an admin conduct issue, or a mistake, or anything that can actually be enforced through a complaint.

All this complaint boils down to is your childish anger that I got involved in the same issue you discussed for all of a few minutes before you went to sleep.

I have had administrative interactions with ATHATH dating back years, giving me solid ground to get involved in a serious situation involving a player I am more than familiar with.
This is just childish.

EDIT:
Sacko wrote:Honestly the admins involved in the event knew that I gave athat permission to do his thing.
I am not trying to drag you through the mud. But this statement doesn't make much sense.

The first thing you said the morning after the event was that you, yourself, did not even realize that you gave ATHATH permission to share an exploit.
I don't know how you expect your event team to realize something you yourself didn't even know.

Not to mention that, if they knew all along, they wouldn't have been arguing about it in the first place.
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Spoiler:
wesoda25 wrote: i love alphonzo and he can be a lot of fun but bro you need to get laid come on
oranges wrote:
Misdoubtful wrote:We're all friends here.
What fucking planet are you living on
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by Cobby » #611915

At no point in time did anyone consider ATHATH to be an immediate threat to the server, nor did anyone but Alphonzo show any anger or insistence to ban them immediately without going through Sacko or, at the very least, the headmins.
I would like to clarify that this isnt entirely true, I had expressed pretty explicit concerns that continuing to leave ATH unbanned would make it harder for the ban to stick if it was applied with a huge delay (which I also said, paraphrasing here, is probably why Morto simply wanted to "sleep on" the matter because they didnt seem to agree with the ban initially so it was, intentional or otherwise, quite a sly play). While there wasn't anger, I also explicitly said that the scenario was EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING and some people seemed to agree.

To perhaps build on the confusion the following morning, I (and by extension others i'd assume) was getting told that the act was missed but then later saw/was told that the act was supposedly approved by the team. Im not sure if that affected the initial ban, but it probably didnt exactly help sort this out as cleanly as it could have.

If he had came into the conversation later i'm not exactly sure what would have prompted him in the conversation after Morto left to ask her, as it isnt apparently obvious she had some stake in the issue anyways besides "dibbs" looking back on the conversation nor do I really see anything that suggested during the time he was in the convo that morto was handling it. I could see maybe having a conversation with the event runner the following morning, but I think part of the issue here is that there wasn't really a loggable way in our typical admin tools to prompt it has been handled by some (semi?)third party. I would agree it was a bit rushed, but I dont think it was out of malice and looking at the OP I dont think it breaks guidelines or at least the one that quoted, as Morto specifically chose not to ahelp or ban or really do anything tgdb/log side that would indicate she had made a decision (because the one statement made that caused this mess specifically does NOT come to a decision).

One final piece that may be important is that there was/is a youtube video im pretty certain that contains the exploit and of course details on how to replicate it, I cant recall off the top of my head but pretty sure it's ATHs and not an admins. One of the few facts we did have was that it was denied for showcasing an exploit. I can very easily see that also being a reason to ban the user temporarily if they felt that ATH was given a ruling and "bypassed it" with the youtube vid, or would have likely posted the video on live or some other scenario before there was a conversation clarifying the issue. In that framework (can correct me if that wasn't considered) that seems to be the right thing to do, especially given the history.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by Timberpoes » #611938

Cobby, with all due respect I completely disagree with every single paragraph you typed.

Your arguments that we should have banned ATH sooner so there was more chance of having the ban stick are your personal feelings and are irrelevant to this complaint.

If you think Morto intentionally hindered the investigation via some quote "sly play" to prevent ATHATH being banned properly, open up an admin complaint with your evidence. It is irrelevant to this complaint.

The investigating admins came to a decision. In this context it was a decision to allow further investigation when everyone was awake again to allow a later informed decision. This was the decision reached after nearly an hour of discussion and investigation. It's all documented in adminbus. I don't know what more you can ask for when the incident happened outside of the game.

No part of anything Alphonzo said or did, including his ban reason or any justification he has posted in this complaint, indicated the YouTube video formed any part of his decision to immediately step in and ban ATH. I suspect these are your personal thoughts about whether ATHATH should have been banned and are irrelevant to the complaint.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by Sacko » #611996

MrAlphonzo wrote:
Sacko wrote:Honestly the admins involved in the event knew that I gave athat permission to do his thing.
I am not trying to drag you through the mud. But this statement doesn't make much sense.

The first thing you said the morning after the event was that you, yourself, did not even realize that you gave ATHATH permission to share an exploit.
I don't know how you expect your event team to realize something you yourself didn't even know.

Not to mention that, if they knew all along, they wouldn't have been arguing about it in the first place.
Very fair let me try to explain my thoughts when I said that a little further. I knew ath was sharing an exploit. I didn't know how in depth he was going to explain it. I'm sorry if I misled you all I hope you can take it as a communication error as this entire thing has been. Not as a malicious act on my part. I didn't look through the video or read the script he wrote for his performance. I had no idea what the nebula chemical did. To be clear I knew it was an exploit!!! the other admins did not know that it was an exploit until the last minute. However they did know that I gave explicit permission for him to perform whether or not it was an exploit. The documents I handed over to them were created and edited by me only. It only could have been me that gave athath permission to go on stage. Please let me know if this makes sense or if I should go more in detail. But I think this all should make things ship shape, hokay???

Edit: Alphonzo you gotta help me out here. I always knew that it was an exploit and I gave permission for ath to share it. I was looking though the admin bus and our first interactions there were you asking if I gave ath permission to share an exploit and me replying with yes witg no questions or confusion. I have no idea why you would think that I was unaware ath would share an exploit. The only thing I said that could be mistaken for that is that I am not 100 percent up to date on athaths history with sharing exploits. I knew going into this that exploits were atha thing and that is why I didn't think twice when he contacted me. I wanted to put on the best show possible. So please provide the evidence if there is any to back up your odd claims hokay
Last edited by Sacko on Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by Cobby » #612004

In response to timber

I think you’re confused on what I’m saying. I’m not giving my personal opinion on whether the ban should have been placed or not, I was simply responding to the quoted message clarifying that through comments I had said (not even including others) I could see where “consider him to be no Immediate threat” and “No one but alphonzo showed anger” were in fact not entirely true.

I’m not sure if Morto held off to make it more difficult to ban Ath, and as you said I don’t think it’s entirely relevant hence why is specifically state “whether it was intentional or otherwise”, Im simply providing context to the conversation since the issue derived from receiving context allegedly midway through the conversation. I’m not sure what I would even complaint if it was her call to make?

The “investigating admins” already came to a decision aka the event runner, again I’m not sure how it’s believed the “dibs” system works but I don’t think Morto really had any right to make a call more so than Alphonzo, if we knew it was based on a decision from the event runner (we did) then they’re the one that should be making the decision. This entire complaint is based around not having read a discord message in an entire conversation giving someone “ownership” of the situation when, unless I’m missing something, it wasn’t theirs to claim anyways. The goalpost seems to be sliding between the “who owns it” and the ban itself as well, so again I can only clarify portions of the conversation and discuss what was posted.

As for the video, I specifically said that if that wasn’t considered I can be corrected. Again it was in the conversation that lead to the ban so simply adding context, and because of the aforementioned sliding between goalposts within the thread I could see it being missed if it had some contributing factor.

I’m not sure how one can disagree with “every paragraph” of the post considering very little in there was even commentary on the ban but simply adding context to the conversation as I have been named dropped extensively throughout this complaint. Me saying I can see if alphonzo came in late to the convo that certain aspects of the conversation (that I was actually quite deep in as the many namedrops would suggest) may have lead him to certain conclusions is NOT me saying he was or wasn’t justified in banning ATH (peanut), and I have quite frankly said otherwise actually. In fact I’m pretty sure I’ve said that to you specifically in the conversation the following morning.

Respectfully, please reread the post without the preconceived notion you seemed to have applied.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MortoSasye » #612009

I literally said how this complaint was made over Alphonzo stepping over everyone's decision, after a discussion that was leading nowhere, without even consulting the headmins as needed due to adminbus contradicting each other, to ban someone in a rushed way. All while I, and others, who were handling it went to sleep on it.

Am I explaining myself wrong or am I speaking in spanish without realizing?
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by Cobby » #612020

I agree he overstepped the event runners decision especially considering it was known it was initially approved to some degree.

Outside of that, there is no ruling that says you can’t make a judgment call before headmins ok it. We do it all the time even for other contentious scenarios. If it was his decision (it wasn’t) to make there would be literally nothing wrong with this.

Outside of that, it wasn’t yours or everyone else’s (again including alphonzo) to “handle” bar the event runner who yay’d or nay’d the issue. You’ve literally wrote in op “you were handling it” and in the last sentence you literally refer to it as an equivalent to an ahelp/ban that you owned. No one else claimed they were gonna make calls in that conversation except alphonzo obv.

It’s important to clarify what was actually wrong here because the outcome of a complaint is ideally for the admin to learn from the mistake and so that other admins know what actually was the issue here.

It is not overstepping you, you had just as much right as alphonzo to make calls. it is not overstepping “everyone else” for the exact same reason. It is also not waiting for a headmin before making a judgement call that some admins disagreed with.

The issue is firmly grounded in overstepping the person who we know approved it to some degree aka the event runner. Had it been a more serious exploit involving chugging the server (which ATH has had incidences in the past mind you), I wouldn’t even be upset with overstepping an admin since it would be out of security concerns which trump your personal take on rule of cool.
Last edited by Cobby on Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MortoSasye » #612025

Since I already explained everything and Cobby seems to be ignoring every single point made

I'm just going to leave this here again, for them to also read after mentioning there is "no ruling regarding taking action without headmins": https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Admin_Conduct

Won't comment further since at this point its just running in circles, and explaining the same thing over and over again.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by ATHATH » #612089

Cobby wrote:One final piece that may be important is that there was/is a youtube video im pretty certain that contains the exploit and of course details on how to replicate it, I cant recall off the top of my head but pretty sure it's ATHs and not an admins. One of the few facts we did have was that it was denied for showcasing an exploit. I can very easily see that also being a reason to ban the user temporarily if they felt that ATH was given a ruling and "bypassed it" with the youtube vid, or would have likely posted the video on live or some other scenario before there was a conversation clarifying the issue. In that framework (can correct me if that wasn't considered) that seems to be the right thing to do, especially given the history.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MrAlphonzo » #612968

I'd hate to stir the pot again but I don't want to leave the thread in the state it is, being one that has dug a little too deep into some nuance that does not hold too much weight on whether or not the complaint should be upheld. So let me make this short, sweet, and concise.

This complaint has no ground to stand on, no matter how you twist it.
I'll prove it, and without getting too lost in the details.

A refresher on the first point of contention
Spoiler:
MrAlphonzo wrote:
[2021-08-15 01:27:11.660] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: MortoSasye/(MortoSasye) "not admining since I'm a judge" (start area (8,174,1))
You didn't handle the issue in-game.
This was not YOUR issue. It was Mothblocks. They were the one who caught onto what ATHATH was trying to do, gave their act the axe, and even explained to you what happened.
Mothblocks was 100% okay with me getting involved, and 100% okay with the permaban I applied.

Have they since changed their mind? Yes, but what they said in the future does not change what they said in the past and how it affected my decision making.

The same admin policy you are trying to cite against me
Don't interfere with another admin's ban or adminhelp unless requested. Feel free to point out important missed details or useful information however. Higher-ranked admins are encouraged to advise and guide other admins, but overruling someone else's ban falls to the headmins.

Maintain professional conduct both in game and outside of the game. It is expected that you take the position seriously. This doesn't mean you can't talk casually to the playerbase, but remain professional on the forums, as well as on other Space Station 13 communities.
just gives me a rock solid defense.
I'm not done yet.
Spoiler:
[2021-08-15 01:27:11.660] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: MortoSasye/(MortoSasye) "not admining since I'm a judge" (start area (8,174,1))
This log is your own admission that you relinquished your position as an administrator to participate in a player role, thereby forfeiting your right to handle the matter entirely. Being a player in the round, participating in an event that was directly affected, that would mean you handling the issue would violate this essential part of administrative conduct:
Don't handle an adminhelp that involves you. Admins can't involve themselves as both an admin and player in a matter.
The same page you've taken the policy to cite against me says it right there, plain as day, this could not possibly be YOUR administrative matter. If anyone was going to break conduct, it was going to be you.
One more, for good measure.
Spoiler:
The banning conduct in of itself can not be contested as that would violate the host ruling from January of this year:
Host ruling: Admin's banning conduct can not be the subject of an admin complaint. That is what appeals are for, and the appeal leading to the ban being overturn is the minimum bar required before a complaint can be filed that references the ban conduct.
The ban was never appealed, and therefore, never overturned, nor was it overturned privately in adminbus, and therefore can not be the subject of the complaint.
Oh yeah, one more thing.
Pretty sure you can't make complaints on behalf of other parties.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by Timberpoes » #612972

ATHATH didn't participate in the shift. He did not log on the servers. The issue did not occur in-game. The issue occurred out-of-game with ATHATH's talent show submission to the team running the event and involved a number of factors that were only known to the events team. ATHATH's video that accompanied his submission was, to my knowledge, recorded on a local server. The matter was being investigated by the events team and supporting admins who were present at the event, with a number of unrelated parties chipping in their 0.02c on Discord later.

Morto was adminned the entire shift. Morto was focusing on DMing over enforcing server rules. Despite the fact morto was not enforcing server rules, I would argue Morto was not participating as a player because they were adminned and coordinating parts of the event. Nobody except you appears to be arguing that Morto was breaking admin conduct by investigating this matter.

Morto is not complaining about your conduct as the banning admin. Morto is complaining that while the investigation into ATHATH's talent contest submission were ongoing, you came in after it was agreed by the investigating parties (of which Morto was the one spearheading things) to wait for sacko's input and decided to take matters into your own hands and ban ATHATH anyway.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MrAlphonzo » #612990

Timberpoes wrote: Morto was adminned the entire shift.
[2021-08-15 01:27:32.972] OOC: MortoSasye/(MortoSasye) "now I'm gonna deadmin since I'm a judge "
lol
Timberpoes wrote:Nobody except you appears to be arguing that Morto was breaking admin conduct by investigating this matter.
Really? Nobody but me?
[2021-08-15 01:27:32.972] OOC: MortoSasye/(MortoSasye) "now I'm gonna deadmin since I'm a judge "
[2021-08-15 01:27:11.660] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: MortoSasye/(MortoSasye) "not admining since I'm a judge" (start area (8,174,1))
Seems to me like Morto and I are on the same page for once. Since she took up a player role in-game, she should not have been handling any administrative matters relating to the round. In fact, this might be the only thing we agree on.
Timberpoes wrote: Morto is not complaining about your conduct as the banning admin
MortoSasye wrote: I'm just going to leave this here again, for them to also read after mentioning there is "no ruling regarding taking action without headmins": https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Admin_Conduct
lol
Timberpoes wrote:ATHATH didn't participate in the shift. He did not log on the servers. The issue did not occur in-game. The issue occurred out-of-game with ATHATH's talent show submission to the team running the event and involved a number of factors that were only known to the events team.
Sure seems to me like it had a direct impact on the event, since it was primarily handled in-game, during that very round.
Last edited by MrAlphonzo on Sun Aug 29, 2021 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by MrAlphonzo » #612993

Doubleposting is a sin but I should throw in some relevant logs and put my money where my mouth is as it relates to:
Spoiler:
MrAlphonzo wrote: A refresher on the first point of contention
MrAlphonzo wrote:
[2021-08-15 01:27:11.660] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: MortoSasye/(MortoSasye) "not admining since I'm a judge" (start area (8,174,1))
You didn't handle the issue in-game.
This was not YOUR issue. It was Mothblocks. They were the one who caught onto what ATHATH was trying to do, gave their act the axe, and even explained to you what happened.
Mothblocks was 100% okay with me getting involved, and 100% okay with the permaban I applied.

Have they since changed their mind? Yes, but what they said in the future does not change what they said in the past and how it affected my decision making.

The same admin policy you are trying to cite against me
Don't interfere with another admin's ban or adminhelp unless requested. Feel free to point out important missed details or useful information however. Higher-ranked admins are encouraged to advise and guide other admins, but overruling someone else's ban falls to the headmins.

Maintain professional conduct both in game and outside of the game. It is expected that you take the position seriously. This doesn't mean you can't talk casually to the playerbase, but remain professional on the forums, as well as on other Space Station 13 communities.
just gives me a rock solid defense.
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From the event host themself, Mothblocks was the admin handling it from the beginning.
Now, who better to vouch for me, than the man who was handling this matter from the beginning?
Now for the relevant logs from the round the ban was placed, round 167838:
[2021-08-15 07:00:00.823] ADMINPRIVATE: MrAlphonzo/(Nailah Wolf) has created a permanent server ban for ATHATH
[2021-08-15 07:00:04.672] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Jaredfogle/(Mothblocks) "based" (Emergency Shelter (64,125,5))
[2021-08-15 07:00:05.566] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Jaredfogle/(Mothblocks) "as fuck" (Emergency Shelter (64,125,5))
[2021-08-15 07:00:06.976] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Jaredfogle/(Mothblocks) "alphonzo" (Emergency Shelter (64,125,5))

[2021-08-15 07:00:43.292] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Wubli/(Jill DeSouza) "did you" (Unexplored Location (203,143,5))
[2021-08-15 07:00:44.353] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Wubli/(Jill DeSouza) "ask aynone" (Unexplored Location (203,143,5))
[2021-08-15 07:00:56.048] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Wubli/(Jill DeSouza) "alphonzo" (Unexplored Location (203,143,5))
[2021-08-15 07:00:59.663] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Wubli/(Jill DeSouza) "before applying that ban" (Unexplored Location (203,143,5))
[2021-08-15 07:01:01.177] ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Jaredfogle/(Mothblocks) "weve been talking baout it in bus" (Emergency Shelter (64,126,5))
We're done here.
The defense rests.
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Re: [MrAlphonzo] MortoSasye - Stepping over another admin ruling/issue

Post by Coconutwarrior97 » #614579

So first off we wanted to address this,a couple of these screenshots we don't believe were alphonzo acting aggressively towards members of the team but rather him joking around,
Spoiler:
Image
Additionally for the future, when it comes to including images from admin channels we'd ask that administrators just walk them by us for a glance, just to ensure everything is in order.
We understand the necessity for them, like in this case, but want to ensure screenshots submitted in a complaint don't accidentally include privileged information.

As to the actual focus of the complaint,
Don't interfere with another admin's ban or adminhelp unless requested. Feel free to point out important missed details or useful information however. Higher-ranked admins are encouraged to advise and guide other admins, but overruling someone else's ban falls to the headmins.
Maintain professional conduct both in game and outside of the game. It is expected that you take the position seriously. This doesn't mean you can't talk casually to the playerbase, but remain professional on the forums, as well as on other Space Station 13 communities.
We don't believe this is applicable in this case, , there's a kind of slight implication there in a way of it being "morto's ban" in the bus discussion but there's a massive distinction between adminbus chatter and in-game situations, which is what the rule being cited is primarily based around. i.e an actual ticket being formed vs just discussing it without anyone outright claiming "I want to handle this.". We don't believe MrAlphonzo broke any admin conduct relating to that.

However, we are dissatisfied with how he handled the ban, namely going in without all the facts he should have had, i.e waiting for another administrator to wake up to discuss an important detail of the situation. We've talked with him and hes agreed with this assessment and have decided on a warning for him.

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Complaint not upheld, though dissatisfied with how the ban was handled.
Jimmius: Complaint not upheld, though dissatisfied with how the ban was handled.
Naloac:Complaint not upheld, though dissatisfied with how the ban was handled.
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