Construction overhaul

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oranges
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Construction overhaul

Post by oranges » #617677

https://hackmd.io/4TMXnLqHSPaLeQA5bKUvSw?view

please read and provide feedback on things that might be impacted by the change proposed in the document.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Jonathan Gupta » #617678

can the RCT body block shots? And how fast does it go?
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by oranges » #617679

No it doesn't block anything, it's a ghost.

And the speed is dependent on the item being constructed.

in general the idea will be to make things slow to build (e.g a couple of minutes for a wall), but you can do multiple in paralell, so you can build 8 walls in that time.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Misdoubtful » #617681

I've always kind of considered the implications of things like walls being removed as easily as they could made. Why would you hack a door when you can remove a wall (or delete the door) with an RCD? Its pretty much just faster when the wall isn't reinforced. Basic walls have always kind of been an easy to remove meme as it is anyways.

I unironically thought the RCD was better when it was a high value item only found on the CE and there would only be the one of them.

So how would this easier mass construction (Outside of the RCD removal) impact the already arguably easy deconstruction game (outside of the marker deconstruction)?
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by oranges » #617682

If you read the document it discusses deconstruction, I'm not sure what more there is to expand upon, it works in reverse of construction via the RCT, so again, much much slower, but parallelize-able.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Misdoubtful » #617683

Yeah I mean I understand the aspect of reverse construction deconstruction, I'm just wondering how else things might change with the RCD being tossed into a dumpster fire behind a Wendy's (Sweet justice).
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Jonathan Gupta » #617684

oranges wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:48 pm No it doesn't block anything, it's a ghost.

And the speed is dependent on the item being constructed.

in general the idea will be to make things slow to build (e.g a couple of minutes for a wall), but you can do multiple in paralell, so you can build 8 walls in that time.
I meant fast as walking.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by oranges » #617685

Jonathan Gupta wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:58 pm
oranges wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:48 pm
I meant fast as walking.
Walking speed in auto follow mode, normal run speed when you're driving it.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Farquaar » #617686

How will this affect my gimmicks where I build my own butter-on-a-stick stand or renovate the mess hall into a sushi bar? Is this only a revamp of the RCD (which I never use), or will all construction be revamped?

I'd really hate for RCTs to be restricted to specific jobs or access levels if they become the only way to do construction and furniture-building.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by oranges » #617700

there's no intention to change manual construction, just make bulk construction viable.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by EuSouAFazenda » #617705

I like the idea. My main concern is with assistants; if an assistant wants to make a larger scale maint room it's much harder to get a RCT than a RCD; for the RCT you'd have to get either Engineer's or Atmos' only RCT while for the RCD you can just ask Cargo.

What do you think about adding a ghetto alternative?
What I'm thinking of right now is what I like to call the Wallshredder. To make it you use a cable coil, a welding tool a igniter and either a mop or a broom.
It's a large item that requires 2 hands to use and it does consume more fuel than the standard welding tool per use. It can be used as a regular welding tool with the added benefit that, when it is used on a non-reinforced wall it tears it down to sheets of paper. The time it takes is the same as it takes to take down a wall down to a girder; all it does is skip the whole deconstruct girder / move it out of the way step, drastically speeding up the process of making a new room.

It's a large and 2-hand item; its drawback is the clunkyness. If you're expanding the library that won't be a problem but you can't bring it around nilly-willy. Engineers won't roundstart make it because of its clunkyness; it's better to have the regular welder in your toolbelt than bring that monster around.

What do you think Orange?
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by oranges » #617711

im thinking if you're an assistant you can pound sand
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by cacogen » #617712

I'm glad Hitler is making an effort to fix construction. I tried to explain to the zoomers on Terry once the issue of construction where beyond a certain size breaches are too time-consuming to be worth fixing but the response basically amounted to "skill issue" which renewed my awareness of why the coders don't often bother trying to explain why they do what they do to an underage playerbase who can think only in memes. Usually when I'm playing engineer, atmos tech or engiborg I'm the only one trying to fix breaches (beyond filling it in), replace atmosphere or even optimise atmos to refill rooms more quickly. I haven't read the design document in full so I'm not sure if this thing is going to suck or not but I'm glad for the attempt. Mothblocks' RCD construction overlay thing made it significantly easier and more pleasurable to rebuild walls and airlocks but as far as I'm aware it was never expanded beyond those two things.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Jonathan Gupta » #617714

oranges wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:39 am im thinking if you're an assistant you can pound sand
unironically a good idea.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #617755

Engineer Cart (i will call it that) doesn't sound intuitive to the extent you will be fighting against atmos constantly before the upgrade when its Engineering's usually first complaint and central role, in which case trolling people by driving it into 1 wide maintenance and corridors or just bombing it will be catastrophic with robotics-wait-times and accessibility being written off as not a concern relating to the behaviour that players suffer no back-lash for early calling against engineering problems. Antagonists could just drive it to make a endless path out into space to put it out of the way or make a cultist space base, but i assume you'd think those were worthwhile features (which they probably are, but capitalize on the vehicles worst aspects).

You have more imagination than i do to tackle the problem evidently since this is a good point to launch from, but i dont buy into it being any better than Mules AI or tools to bypass girder construction: which everyone hates in and out of combat for reasons you've already said. I remember the hacked mule-crush epidemic, and that was the only notable rise in usage for them, because it was funny and violent rather than efficiently solving the station's cargo problems mainly related to education of how to do disposals quickly.

Here's something i would say taking this in to resolve the issue.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Omega_DarkPotato » #617781

Sounds neat but I fear that removing the individual tools in favor of only a large-scale device that can only walk to places as it builds is going to rub a lot of people who just want to pipe the SM fast and then leave the wrong way. Sometimes you just wanna do some finer touchups with piping or you notice something's gone wrong in maint and you don't wanna get a big beefy boy all the way in to follow you to replace a pipe or two.

I never use an RCD as an assistant anyway because I'm a chad who manually builds everything, but losing access to something like an RPD hurts for pipe dreamers, and I also fear the accessibility issue with maint's 1-tile corridors that fwoosh's brought up.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by oranges » #617785

There is no scope to remove individual construction as MSO is strongly against the removal of any kind of slap crafting system.

>Engineer Cart (i will call it that) doesn't sound intuitive to the extent you will be fighting against atmos constantly
It's only affected by lack of gravity and you can still bump move it.

> can be griefed
It's both key protected and if you get the upgrade, id card locked, so stealing it is non trivial.

and yes antagonists can blow anything up, that's what makes them antagonists.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by oranges » #617786

Omega_DarkPotato wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:18 am Sounds neat but I fear that removing the individual tools in favor of only a large-scale device that can only walk to places as it builds is going to rub a lot of people who just want to pipe the SM fast and then leave the wrong way. Sometimes you just wanna do some finer touchups with piping or you notice something's gone wrong in maint and you don't wanna get a big beefy boy all the way in to follow you to replace a pipe or two.

I never use an RCD as an assistant anyway because I'm a chad who manually builds everything, but losing access to something like an RPD hurts for pipe dreamers, and I also fear the accessibility issue with maint's 1-tile corridors that fwoosh's brought up.
If you're just replacing a few pipes, that's trivial and doesn't need a machine at all.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #617814

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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Capsandi » #617815

oranges wrote: Instead, a new mobile vehicle (that operates kind of like a mulebot, but has good code) called the Rapid Construction Tractor or RCT is added. This vehicle can be driven to a location (run speed), and has a slower follow mode (walk speed), where it tries to follow you around as you walk.
Would it not be less convoluted to have a single slow riding setting? I'm not sure why a slower setting would be used by players if it also puts control of the thing into the hands of fallible path finding.
Though maybe if riding it was as slow as remote control, an automatic navigation to a destroyed area would be useful.
Picture this, an engineer is calming the sm down after some clown falls onto it, when science explodes. While they finish up on the SM, they use some sort of modular tablet app or something to tell their tractor to meander slowly over to science and wait for them.
It probably still wouldn't be used but I think giving the mass construction machine the ability to move too quickly would squander the chance to cut down on trivializing fortifications with the mass [de]construction items

also parking it should obviously anchor it so no issues arise with a fresh hole in the station sucking the thing left and right while it cancels what its doing cause it's moved.
all in all its a good idea.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by cacogen » #617819

Why would you want to remove hand construction of all things? Why would you want to remove RCDs and RPDs, instead of just speeding up larger builds and particularly rebuilds with this thing?
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Farquaar » #617824

cacogen wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:36 am Why would you want to remove hand construction of all things? Why would you want to remove RCDs and RPDs, instead of just speeding up larger builds and particularly rebuilds with this thing?
Geez Cacogen, read the thread
oranges wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:46 am there's no intention to change manual construction, just make bulk construction viable.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by kopoba » #617827

Problem is time. This design document will slow down construction as i can see. Slowing down will result coldmos/depresurization/fire of areas for longer period. Nowadays you can just grab RCD run to bombed medbay and fix breaches and pipes in a minute. With slow moves of RCT and slow construction and even with queue fixing shit will take much more time.
When you are engineer and walk to hop office and someone bombed hopline you will need to go back to your RCT in engineering to grab your RCT to fix hop line. With RCD you can fix on sight with no problem.
I see benefits of RCT but cost of loosing RCD and RPD is
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by cacogen » #617834

Farquaar wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:44 am Geez Cacogen, read the thread
oranges wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:54 amThere is no scope to remove individual construction as MSO is strongly against the removal of any kind of slap crafting system.
The implication I get from this is that if not for MSO he'd want to remove manual construction. Like using metal to build a girder and then slapping that metal on the girder to build a wall. Which along with removing the RCD and RPD would mean gating all construction behind this tractor thing.

It seems to me a large impetus for making this change is to reduce the amount of people with access to rapid construction by gating it behind these rarer and more cumbersome vehicles. Which will just slow down construction and reduce the amount of people fixing things. It would be better if this change was solely focused on speeding up large scale construction or repairs and didn't affect what we already have.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by oranges » #617850

kopoba wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:13 am Problem is time. This design document will slow down construction as i can see. Slowing down will result coldmos/depresurization/fire of areas for longer period. Nowadays you can just grab RCD run to bombed medbay and fix breaches and pipes in a minute. With slow moves of RCT and slow construction and even with queue fixing shit will take much more time.
When you are engineer and walk to hop office and someone bombed hopline you will need to go back to your RCT in engineering to grab your RCT to fix hop line. With RCD you can fix on sight with no problem.
I see benefits of RCT but cost of loosing RCD and RPD is
=
hey man, to fix breaches and depressurisation start with a metal foam grenade, then use the RCT upgrade that lets you replace over top of that item without removing it first.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Agux909 » #617851

The RPD isn't as much of a problem as the bs the RCD is. RPD is useful and intuitive (after some practice) for specific things that aren't in the forefront all the time (Toxins and SM setup, atmos stuff, disposal mazes, transit tubes, quick repiping to fix air in the hallways, etc.), while RCD is a general purpose magic builder/debuilder that can affect movement around the station drastically by your generic tider.

It makes sense to remove the RCD, but as it is now, why do you think RPD should be removed too?
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by saprasam » #617873

i dont see why the rpd and rcd aren't allowed to stay as shittier, handheld RCTs
hell even nerf them if it comes down to it
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by kopoba » #617880

oranges wrote: Sun Oct 31, 2021 7:55 pm hey man, to fix breaches and depressurisation start with a metal foam grenade, then use the RCT upgrade that lets you replace over top of that item without removing it first.
Metal metal foam grenades is so shit that experienced engis never use them. Shity Foam walls that you must break take so much time reeeee. One wrong click and you have hole in floor.
They 99% of times used by greytide to block hallways for fun.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by WineAllWine » #618108

Did I read correctly that it can build lights? It's always struck me as deeply strange that the rapid light constructor was admin only...
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by GamerAndYeahMick » #618109

Feels like it will make rounds actually last, and make reconstucting areas easy because this thing basically does it for you, from my understanding which is a net positive, doing atmos shit might be a bit awkward with it? the current tool offers a lot of control and if this one can keep that then I think it's good
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Cimika » #618110

Hey Oranges, I quite like that new item. I am of the mind that change keeps the game fresh, so whether it is better or worse than current tools matters little to me, as long as it is fun and/or thematic to us. I'm all for it. Also maybe worth thinking about a backpack version with a limited amount of constructions options for emergencies? Could be fun, and prevents the use of a backpack so no using it in combat.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Vekter » #618111

oranges wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 2:55 am
Omega_DarkPotato wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 12:18 am Sounds neat but I fear that removing the individual tools in favor of only a large-scale device that can only walk to places as it builds is going to rub a lot of people who just want to pipe the SM fast and then leave the wrong way. Sometimes you just wanna do some finer touchups with piping or you notice something's gone wrong in maint and you don't wanna get a big beefy boy all the way in to follow you to replace a pipe or two.

I never use an RCD as an assistant anyway because I'm a chad who manually builds everything, but losing access to something like an RPD hurts for pipe dreamers, and I also fear the accessibility issue with maint's 1-tile corridors that fwoosh's brought up.
If you're just replacing a few pipes, that's trivial and doesn't need a machine at all.
I don't even know how to replace pipes without the RPD. Can we get it so pipes fit in construction bags or some kind of pipe bag to make carrying them not a fucking nightmare?

Plus, this doesn't even address pipe layering/coloring. I'm assuming this would come with some kind of overhaul for those functions?
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by toadtheloser » #618112

I think this is a very interesting change. The only things that would make it better is if construction was a bit faster (a few minutes seems like a while, unless you're talking 2-3, but even then that's quite a lot), and with this, you'd port over those tractor attachments from /vg/ so you could haul some extra stuff with the RCT. Also please allow drones to drive these.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by oranges » #618113

You can't make it too fast or it becomes suitable for combat use.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Somepan » #618114

First will the ratio for construction of walls and destruction be the same than RCD, if yes is are you envisaging an upgrade to reduce to cost of construction. Because RCDs eat a fuck ton of mats and having to go back to a lathe to refuel after 5 walls will be a pain.( that is an hyperbole don't sue me)
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Rune_Quester » #618115

Seems like a neat idea, but really, the RPD needs to stay. Too clunky and jank to use a entire new truck just to re-pipe the SM :<
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Tapubulu » #618116

How will this affect laying pipes in/around the SM?
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Critawakets » #618117

What's the point of removing the RPD/RCD? Especially the first one since atmos projects/repairs are usually going to be a bit away from what engi's doing. They should be kept in as the intermediary between doing things with your hands and the RCT, though maybe with nerf to compensate like slower/no deconstruction on the RCD.

Also how would RCTs be obtained? I imagine a cargo crate or you can just make em in engineering? Honestly i think making them engi-built is better than a cargo crate because its piss easy right now for anyone to obtain anything from cargo if they know what they're doing, job be damned. Plus having guncargo have the ability to terraform the entire station scares me.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Capsandi » #618118

Critawakets wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:54 pm Also how would RCTs be obtained?
Read the comments on the doc, they are built in robotics
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Critawakets » #618119

Capsandi wrote: Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:01 pm Read the comments on the doc, they are built in robotics
Oh okay, so they're built in engineering. Got it.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by galpaladin » #618120

I like the idea of janicart-like engineer gameplay where you just ride the thing around instead of walking, but I do think there ought to be some better way to quickly patch holes than metal foam grenades which kind of make a massive mess, like for instance inflatables or easier access to holofans or that sort of thing. "Chief engineer gets the only remaining (potentially still nerfed to be two handed or a backpack or something) RCD" is also something I'd support, could be a nice traitor objective on top of the convenience for "CE wants to do some stupid gigantic design from round start" activities, as well as mitigating the CE hogging one of the carts to themself.
For piping, I think there's a problem with small scale fixes and changes that this doesn't adequately address. The new design is great for large scale repairs since you can expect to need both a lot of pipes and a variety, but significantly hurts spot fixes and minor edits due to potential walking time to go back to base and get the requisite parts, or worse, grabbing the wrong layer pipes and having to go back AGAIN. I'd support completely removing the RCD if it became possible to change the layer of a given pipe when held in hand, and less importantly, if they were less bulky or had a dedicated storage item so you could conceivably carry around a few key parts to set up your edit wherever you want or patch small holes, though if this doesn't happen I see carried engineering duffel bags filling this niche. Oh also, I think this change would increase use of the pipe painter which is great imo, nobody uses that thing anymore.
Overall good changes, would definitely have an adjustment period of whining but I could see a positive new engineering meta forming around it.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by NoxVS » #618126

How would this work for cyborgs? Do they still function as they did before?
EuSouAFazenda wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 2:22 am I like the idea. My main concern is with assistants; if an assistant wants to make a larger scale maint room it's much harder to get a RCT than a RCD; for the RCT you'd have to get either Engineer's or Atmos' only RCT while for the RCD you can just ask Cargo.

What do you think about adding a ghetto alternative?
What I'm thinking of right now is what I like to call the Wallshredder. To make it you use a cable coil, a welding tool a igniter and either a mop or a broom.
It's a large item that requires 2 hands to use and it does consume more fuel than the standard welding tool per use. It can be used as a regular welding tool with the added benefit that, when it is used on a non-reinforced wall it tears it down to sheets of paper. The time it takes is the same as it takes to take down a wall down to a girder; all it does is skip the whole deconstruct girder / move it out of the way step, drastically speeding up the process of making a new room.

It's a large and 2-hand item; its drawback is the clunkyness. If you're expanding the library that won't be a problem but you can't bring it around nilly-willy. Engineers won't roundstart make it because of its clunkyness; it's better to have the regular welder in your toolbelt than bring that monster around.

What do you think Orange?
We already have the manual method of construction. That's the "ghetto alternative". All we are really missing is a way to manually deconstruct floors AFAIK
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Urocyon » #618127

Lets be blunt, the Rapid Cable Layer(RCL), the Rapid Pipe Dispenser (RPD) and the Rapid Construction Device (RCD) are all removed
What does this mean for engineering borgs, mech rcd, and ERT?

Would you be open to just removing the normal yellow human hold-able RCD and PRD, and leaving the others, or do you have something in mind for those?

It seems logical to me that engineering borg should retain the ability to do self contained mass construction. I always imagined them as something like a sentient version of this RCT you are proposing. Combat use of the RCD is part of their antag/subverted deal, and it would be a pretty big hit to loose that, so I'd like to know if and how you intend to change up the orange borg. Don't forget the nukie version.

Mech RCD- I'm probably the only one in all of SS13 to ever use this, so, eh. It's incredibly clunky to use, even robotics mains probably don't know it exists or how to use it, and it's badly gated by research, but I still think it's cool.

ERT Industrial / Combat RCD- again, I might be the only person to ever use these, but I'd be interested in hearing what you have in mind for replacement capability, if anything.
Last edited by Urocyon on Thu Nov 04, 2021 12:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Echriser » #618128

I think that the nanobot idea could solve a lot of issues mentioned with current construction: Leave nanobots behind for steady construction and if nanobot swarms can be harmed, you could prevent greytiders from breaking down or spam-placing walls by either beating up or having sec fire a disabler beam at the nanobot swarms. So, why not concentrate that idea into a handheld tool like a Nanite Director Tool or something along those lines? It will solve many of the same problems without the potential fighting or impatience that comes with having to construct and upgrade tractors, especially early round where it would be needed for the SM.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by SpinnerMaster » #618129

I'm concerned about engi borg gameplay, but I really like this idea and I think its pretty cool.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by ELES » #618130

Was talked about on discord pretty heavily and negatively, but I believe this is a salvageable idea.

A big part of that is that manual pipe laying is cancerous, and barely functional with the current version of pipes(and more accurately, it's not really functional at all, especially with pipe dispensors). Furthermore, Combat pipes are a lot less of an issue than shitting out literal walls, and the removal of all rapid construction tools seems a bit like a kneejerk reaction to one of them being broken.

That said, I think that the RCT as a concept could work if it just replaces the RCD, and other rapid construction tools still exist. This way, the RCT is technically an upgrade to the RCD as it's intended to be used, while disincentivizing the behavior that generated the need for this. The RPD is pretty much necessary for hand piping at this point, and the plumbing constructor literally requires that chemistry make plastic to get more of. It also makes it so that you aren't putting engi's big time equipment in two other departments roundstart so that they can do their jobs.

Finally, this seems to have overlooked borg and mech tools as others have stated.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by halitosisman » #618131

It's been a while since I played, so correct me if this information is out of date.

Mining does not supply the amount of metal needed to build a basic room from scratch any earlier than the one hour mark on average. Your proposal, as written, will not enable large scale construction because the escape shuttle usually arrives by then.

This is why I always build a mining station with the aux base whenever I try any kind of construction at scale. There's no way to get the necessary material quantities unless I mine them myself. There was also no way to build anything before the escape shuttle arrived unless my production, mining and construction site were all in the same place. Hopefully your change handles the issue of prohibitive construction times.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by oranges » #618132

it's not a removal, they're being consolidated into one item which has slightly more tradeoffs that require active user decision making.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by oranges » #618133

halitosisman wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 1:01 am Mining does not supply the amount of metal needed to build a basic room from scratch any earlier than the one hour mark on average. Your proposal, as written, will not enable large scale construction because the escape shuttle usually arrives by then.
This isn't a rebalance of mining, but I"d like to see more data on this issue.
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Re: Construction overhaul

Post by Knira » #618135

I don't have any issues with this besides the fact that removing the RPD will make fixing delams way more difficult than they already are, for most people who do not know the engine very well, on top of the fact that running back and forth to replace pipes is going to just be extremely frustrating and making suicide in SM round start way more harder to deal with since the default Sm setup is complete ass and will clog and need pipe replacements.
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