give officers maint access back

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toemas
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give officers maint access back

Post by toemas » #641634

its been in the game for a bit just to try it out, and i think its been here long enough. having to go ask the hop for maints access whenever theres a cult or something is just pointless tedium. it does not enhance or improve my enjoyment of the game.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Adam Klein » #641663

-1 on this. The removal of assistant and security maintenance access has made the lives of those in maintenance that much better. Focus on doing your job in the main halls first, then It takes two minutes top to go to the HOPline. Talk to some folks to order your valid salad. :)
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by massa » #641748

give greys maint back too
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Timberpoes » #641807

This was a change proposed and implemented by the host, so it's not currently within the headmin team's competency to change.

That doesn't mean discussion on it is irrelevant or this policy thread needs to be closed, but that you should target your discussion towards MSO.

If MSO bounces the ball back to the headmins to make a decision, we'll let you know.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by massa » #641811

can you guys ask because assistant (and sec) without maint access is sooooooooooo boring
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Pandarsenic » #641832

They keep Maint access at low pop, right? I think I remember seeing something about that.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by datorangebottle » #641843

honestly, not having maint access as an assistant finally gave me a reason to stop playing it. kinda makes dicking around harder when you have no access to any tools or sweet maint loot. also, sec not having maint makes very little sense to me, even if it makes the antagonists have more fun.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by zxaber » #641844

If there's a cult or something in maint, tell the AI or a head of staff to enable emergency maintenance access.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by sinfulbliss » #641851

zxaber wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 4:41 am If there's a cult or something in maint, tell the AI or a head of staff to enable emergency maintenance access.
Needing to rely on a head of staff or AI to walk into maintenance is quite bad, there's a good chance there's no response or the heads are busy and won't bother enabling it (since they have maint access). Even if it's enabled it creates a host of its own problems, like cap office and brig being accessible to everyone.

Aside from people who just want to don the grey, assistant mains will just choose another job like cargo tekkie or engineer that has maint access, and then play it as they would if they were assistant. 0 downside to this for them, big downside for departments with finite job slots and responsibilities.

By far the worst is seccies not having maint access, though. Bodies are regularly stashed or hidden in maint, nightmares will be in maint, spiders will be in maint, swarmers, cult, blob, and all sorts of other threats that you simply need to be patroling for. If you need emergency maint access for every one of these then you might as well enable it shiftstart so seccies can actually do their job, then manually bolt all the secure maint doors after. Obviously that's terrible though. You could ask the HoP to add it, but if there is no HoP or he's out-of-office (extremely common), we're back to square 1.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by TheFinalPotato » #641855

This kinda gets into game balance things, but you've not gone into why these things you're talking about are bad sinful. Like, I don't play so I'm not sure I'd know, but why is having a harder time getting maint access as sec/antags being more free bad? It's different for sure, but why is it a bad thing? Is it because of what it does to the job's gameplay loop?
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by sinfulbliss » #641860

TheFinalPotato wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 6:15 am Is it because of what it does to the job's gameplay loop?
Exactly. Sec's job is unique in that it takes place all over the station, since it's mostly walking around looking for things to investigate, and it can't be done from the brig. Access is precious since it expands where you can patrol. You'll be patrolling the main halls and public areas too, but since those are usually very active, you're less likely to stumble upon suspicious things happening out in the open, especially without a callout first. Maint is also the first place antags will run off to on a chase, since it's low-traffic, dark, and easy to disappear into.

I wouldn't even begin the job as sec until securing a way to traverse maint, it would seem almost pointless. You'd be better off scrolling through the station on cams rather than patrolling it, since that's much faster. But then your job would be mostly waiting around for a callout. Maint has the unique feature of being inaccessible to cameras, so it's the only place that requires actual patrolling to scope out.

I definitely like the idea of antags being more free and having advantages over sec, I've always advocated buffing them (e.g. bringing back adrenals), and I liked Naloac's stunbaton nerf too. But restricting maintenance just interrupts sec's job flow too much to be a viable way to do that.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by san7890 » #641898

I'm going to adapt what I wrote here viewtopic.php?p=639038#p639038 (which still holds true in case you want to do some extra reading) in regards to the current state of maintenance access for all station maps in the codebase.

We have remapped all accesses across all five station maps, so this should hold true (aside from some odd edge cases). Right now, everyone with general access to that department can also access the maintenance tunnels adjacent to their department. For example, here is the following screenshot from MetaStation.

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This helper on this airlock should mean that anyone with either Medical General access or Maintenance Tunnel access can easily access this airlock. This means that any medical doctor can go ahead and open up these doors in maintenance, as well as other "gamer loot" rooms in maintenance.

We have situations like this for all the departments across all stations. The general rule-of-thumb is if the maintenance tunnel borders that department, they get access to it. I'm not sure if we have shared sections where medical/science have access to the same tunnels (or other "shared" zones in the station), but that would most likely be on the station-by-station basis, and I'll continue to weigh stuff like this on the codebase end.

There are also now unrestricted helpers that lead players out of maintenance in a one-way direction, so you don't end up getting trapped in a helpless spot. For example, if I'm stuck in that airlock space, I can follow the unrestricted helpers all the way down, and end up escaping the "crypt" like this:

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Antagonists are now unable to easily "lock" people in some obscure section in maintenance without otherwise hindering a potential escape (they are UNRESTRICTED helpers, which means that literally anything can work it's way out). In fact, with this new system, you could simply ask the AI to let you into maintenance at any point, and still be able to escape (however, you probably won't have access to the "gamer loot" rooms without more access).

This is what maptainers have signed off on and what should now be seen in game (thanks to Son-of-Space). I'm writing this down here so if you were otherwise unaware of these recent changes made across all the maps while weighing your thoughts on how we should tackle maintenance access for assistants/security.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by BONERMASTER » #641900

I disagree with this change to security officers access. This just further bogs down law enforcement in a state, where it is already extremely difficult to maintain coordination and order.
I even think it makes the officer role a joke, to be honest.
Every criminal closes the maint door on you, they're gone. What happens if you chase after them, lose them, and now can't get out anymore? That is just humiliating beyond reason. I want to remind you that the security department isn't only here to chase antags, they're also there to deal with the crew. A very belligerent and volatile crew, often. They already got a lot on the plate, and I don't see why we should make it even worse for them, I can imagine that security mains will feel betrayed by the choice that was made, and I think it is a bad choice.


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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Timberpoes » #641907

Assistant, sec officer, warden, shaft miner has innate lowpop maint access and can gain it via config at highpop.

Cap, cargo tech, atmos tech, CE, CMO, detective, HoP, HoS, janitor, paramedic, QM, RD, station engineer has highpop maint access.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Pandarsenic » #641936

Timberpoes wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 8:29 pm Assistant, sec officer, warden, shaft miner has innate lowpop maint access and can gain it via config at highpop.

Cap, cargo tech, atmos tech, CE, CMO, detective, HoP, HoS, janitor, paramedic, QM, RD, station engineer has highpop maint access.
Sorry for the deluge of questions, but such is the life of a maintainer+headmin:

What's the cutoff for highpop? Is it based on the manifest/living crew job data, or something else? Does it care about roundstart or does it care about the time you join the station (e.g. could officers or assistants joining at different times get different access)?

How does added/removed maint access interact with the highly limited slots on trimIDs? Is it going to a basic or wildcard slot on them?

If you know already, how has this affected antag win rates so far? Do you intend to test highpop maint for sec-but-not-assistants and assistants-but-not-sec combinations, too, to compare them? Do you have expectations of how those numbers will be affected (or did you previously, but got different results)? If so, what?
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Timberpoes » #641966

Pandarsenic wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:44 am
Timberpoes wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 8:29 pm Assistant, sec officer, warden, shaft miner has innate lowpop maint access and can gain it via config at highpop.

Cap, cargo tech, atmos tech, CE, CMO, detective, HoP, HoS, janitor, paramedic, QM, RD, station engineer has highpop maint access.
Sorry for the deluge of questions, but such is the life of a maintainer+headmin:

What's the cutoff for highpop? Is it based on the manifest/living crew job data, or something else? Does it care about roundstart or does it care about the time you join the station (e.g. could officers or assistants joining at different times get different access)?

How does added/removed maint access interact with the highly limited slots on trimIDs? Is it going to a basic or wildcard slot on them?

If you know already, how has this affected antag win rates so far? Do you intend to test highpop maint for sec-but-not-assistants and assistants-but-not-sec combinations, too, to compare them? Do you have expectations of how those numbers will be affected (or did you previously, but got different results)? If so, what?
Well, I code the trims so I can answer as a contributor.

Highpop and lowpop modify the basic accesses granted by the trim, using no wildcard slots.

The cutoff is in config and is shared across servers.

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... ptions.txt see MINIMAL_ACCESS_THRESHOLD which is currently 23.

I have no clue how this will have impacted antag win rates. Every so often a kindly data scientist comes along to parse the win rates of various dynamic rulesets and remind us that cult have a 20% win rate or something.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by sinfulbliss » #641967

These facts are helpful but it seems more productive to consider this as a community reflection against the change and an assessment of its merit, insofar as it’s up for discussion, and because MSO stated he intended it as a sort of experiment to see how it changes the dynamics of rounds.

I reckon he would take people’s experiences with it into consideration when deciding whether or not to stick with it. Maybe headmins could share their experiences playing with it as well, or their general thoughts on it, since their opinions on the policy would hold a lot more weight.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Timberpoes » #642002

I think the practical implications are limited since "lol just go to the HoP, Captain or CE and get maint access" is not a difficult or high barrier to pass.

It does make security's job harder since sec officers and wardens now have to rely on someone else to get maint access. I don't think this is an inherently bad thing.

I like the idea of a sec officer chasing a player and the player walking through an airlock the sec officer doesn't have access to and the sec officer having to find some other way around. I don't see how this differs too far from sec trying to chase someone through a department they don't have access to, and doesn't differ at all from any area of the station where the AI's cameras have been sabotaged so it cannot see airlocks.

I don't consider going to someone and asking for access to be the hieght of RP, but I do consider it to be playing a role and I do think playing a role contributes more to the atmosphere, narrative and story of the shift. To see security trying to find someone to give them access, or queuing up at the HoP line or whatever seems very fitting with what SS13 is as a roleplaying game.

I think the fact the detective and HoS have highpop maint access is plenty enough for security at the start of a shift. I think the fact that so many other jobs have maint access built in when standard security don't is is pretty neat, as it lets those jobs instantly set up in maint and get to work if they want knowing security has to jump through more hoops first.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Pandarsenic » #642009

I actually am, at least in theory, VERY into what this does for Paramedic, making them actually have a role in... finding bodies?
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Farquaar » #642018

I'm of the opinion that security officers should be the job best equipped to deal with criminals and antags. It doesn't mean that security should always have the upper hand against them, but they should have the gear and access that puts them a few steps above your average engineer or cargo tech when it comes to dealing with violent threats.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Istoprocent1 » #642042

Taking away maint access is a really bad change in my opinion. On one hand if the round goes on for hours and hours, cool, on the other hand if its a 45 minute round then garbage tier antags (like heretic) who didn't pick the metajob (cargo tech/engineer etc) with maintenance access will have less tools to work with and won't be able to do anything interesting as well as limiting the escape options for antags. "But ask HOP for access!", bruh, HOP will be afking or traitoring half the time and you won't get any access.

A reasonable solution until maint access is reverted (if at all) is just swiping emergency access at round start on LRP, otherwise its kinda unfun.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by sinfulbliss » #642072

Timberpoes wrote:I don't consider going to someone and asking for access to be the hieght of RP, but I do consider it to be playing a role and I do think playing a role contributes more to the atmosphere, narrative and story of the shift. To see security trying to find someone to give them access, or queuing up at the HoP line or whatever seems very fitting with what SS13 is as a roleplaying game.
Security is unplayable without maintenance access, so to play your role you need it. Maintenance is literally the most important thing for sec officers to be able to access. I'd 100% rather not have brig access than not have maintenance access, unironically, because 1) the HoS can add brig, and 2) you'll spend much less time hacking open brig doors than maintenance doors in the course of your average sec round.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 2:56 pm I think the practical implications are limited since "lol just go to the HoP, Captain or CE and get maint access" is not a difficult or high barrier to pass.
Except in Manuel and slower servers, most HoPs aren't just sitting in their office waiting for people to give access to. Relying on captains and CEs to go to the HoPline so some random sec officer can do his job is bad gameplay. And that's in a perfect scenario - imagine if members of command died, it's a rev round and they're in brig, there's a blob, parts of the station are spaced - officers without maint access will simply not be getting it in nonideal conditions (viz.: most of the time).
Timberpoes wrote:I don't see how this differs too far from sec trying to chase someone through a department they don't have access to, and doesn't differ at all from any area of the station where the AI's cameras have been sabotaged so it cannot see airlocks.
it's different for this reason: people with jobs have access to one (1) department. Sec can chase them anywhere else, aside from their department. The odds sec gets the door slammed in their face and have no recourse to continue the pursuit is much lower than if all of maintenance were locked to them. This change reduces sec to mallcops that traipse around public hallways, lose the first actual antag they see to maint, then begin a 10 minute hunt to nag the cap. If they're unsuccessful they're just boned I guess and resume traipsing around the main halls.

Again sec is the only department where 90% of their job takes place outside their own department. So yeah it's sort of important for them to be able to have more mobility, outside of their department.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by MrStonedOne » #642099

sinfulbliss wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:14 am
Timberpoes wrote:I don't consider going to someone and asking for access to be the hieght of RP, but I do consider it to be playing a role and I do think playing a role contributes more to the atmosphere, narrative and story of the shift. To see security trying to find someone to give them access, or queuing up at the HoP line or whatever seems very fitting with what SS13 is as a roleplaying game.
Security is unplayable without maintenance access, so to play your role you need it. Maintenance is literally the most important thing for sec officers to be able to access. I'd 100% rather not have brig access than not have maintenance access, unironically, because 1) the HoS can add brig, and 2) you'll spend much less time hacking open brig doors than maintenance doors in the course of your average sec round.
I used to play security back when security didn't get maint access.

This just isn't true.

Antag hunting is unplayable without maint access, but security isn't the antag hunters. Given the all access exit helpers, security can perfectly easily chase antags into and thru maint and shoot them if the antag stops to shut the door behind them while screaming ";ai door". What they can't do, without maint access, is randomly scout maint for people to arrest. that's not necessarily a bad thing

I put up a poll, but my general stance is that security shouldn't have maint access, and if they have it, assistants must have it too.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Capsandi » #642152

I agree with MSO. Worst case scenario if you feel that you will be needing maint access during the round you can make a quick trip to the HOP line to get it back. What I've seen while playing with this change is that with the exception of warops, security keeps busy during the beginning of rounds by starting shit with assistants, allowing progression antags to become more of a threat. If there's a huge unforeseen issue which requires maintenance access then emergency access is always an option, but results in departments becoming vulnerable to advanced moonlighting.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by sinfulbliss » #642155

MSO wrote:-snip
I guess we have to agree to disagree. I don't find the job playable without maint access. I would go HoS or detective instead to avoid the issue honestly.
Capsandi wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:45 pm Worst case scenario if you feel that you will be needing maint access during the round you can make a quick trip to the HOP line to get it back.
First there's no "feel like you will be needing maint access." You will need it. And no the worst case scenario is that the HoP isn't there because he leaves after 5-10min and you're SoL for the entire round then die in the main halls because it's spaced and you can't escape to maintenance.
Capsandi wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:45 pmWhat I've seen while playing with this change is that with the exception of warops, security keeps busy during the beginning of rounds by starting shit with assistants, allowing progression antags to become more of a threat.
The fact you could think this is somehow a good thing is mind-boggling. The absolute catastrophe that is security instigating conflicts with nonantags earned itself its own policy thread even. Fights with nonantags are the reason people hate playing security and touting it as an indirect benefit is absolutely insane.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Mothblocks » #642166

And no the worst case scenario is that the HoP isn't there because he leaves after 5-10min and you're SoL for the entire round then die in the main halls because it's spaced and you can't escape to maintenance.
So are you in favor of giving everyone maint access? Nothing here is a security specific problem.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by sinfulbliss » #642168

Mothblocks wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:33 pm
And no the worst case scenario is that the HoP isn't there because he leaves after 5-10min and you're SoL for the entire round then die in the main halls because it's spaced and you can't escape to maintenance.
So are you in favor of giving everyone maint access? Nothing here is a security specific problem.
Scientists don't have maint access because genetics, xenobiology, ordnance, robotics, and research can be done completely in the confines of the science department. Almost all of medical doesn't have maint access because chemists, doctors, and virologists can do their jobs completely in the confines of medbay. Almost all of service doesn't have maint access because the bartender, botanist, chef, psychologist can do their jobs completely in the confines of the bar, hydroponics, the kitchen, and the psych room. There's no issue with this.

But if maint was taken away from engineering, parameds, janitors, etc., I'm sure you'd agree it would be a specific problem to them. Engineering needs maintenance to repair things around the station. Parameds need maintenance to find dead bodies and heal them. Janitors need maintenance to get around to clean more places. Why not take maint from these departments, if they can simply request it from the HoP? As Timber said, it involves playing a role to hunt down someone that can give them access. I think you'd agree this wouldn't make sense because we consider maint essential for these jobs.

I believe maint is just as essential for security. Snooping around in dark places, investigating blood trails and crimes wherever they lead, pursuing criminals into cult bases in maint (and having an exit when 4 culties come out running at you), is all part and parcel of the security job. It's just as essential for sec as it is for any other job with maint access. This change is a unique problem for sec and it would be a unique problem for any other job that relies on it for their usual activities.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by TheFinalPotato » #642177

Some of these things you're listing seem like entirely detective concerns. Why do you think sec shouldn't be interacting with non antags?
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Farquaar » #642182

TheFinalPotato wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 10:34 pm Why do you think sec shouldn't be interacting with non antags?
Where did he say that?
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by TheFinalPotato » #642183

Ah sorry I misread instigating as interacting. Still kinda curious about what counts as instigating, but I am also an idiot
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Istoprocent1 » #642196

Mothblocks wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 9:33 pm So are you in favor of giving everyone maint access? Nothing here is a security specific problem.
Might as well give it to everyone, since without maintenance access the play area is limited for no good reason. Game mechanics provide plenty of tools to create new rooms or make the current rooms inaccessible in the maintenance for shady purposes.

As a sec player the less area people have access to means the easier it becomes to find the criminals and anybody without the inherit access to the maintenance would be a potential criminal that could be searched and sentenced for Trespassing in the majority of the cases, which wouldn't be fun for the antags. Locking security out of the maintenance is counterproductive, because now they cannot do their job which is already rather limited in scope and results in reduction of fun for the security.

As somebody without the inherit maintenance access the game becomes more tedious, since now you would have spend valuable time on fighting over/looting the tools or trying to get people to give you access rather than focusing on making the round more interesting.

I hope the votes are added together when comparing access (all + assistant/sec) vs no access in order to make all the potential votes count.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Kendrickorium » #642197

I think the changes are neat. its fun to see how the meta changes, and any seasoned strategy gamer will tell you, meta changes are good for the game no matter what

some people will like them or hate them

I remain unaffected as I typically main captain

that being said, I think all the options in the poll would be really neat to have as station quirks, while leaving maint access for assistants and sec as part of the main meta
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Redrover1760 » #643271

I want sec officers to patrol maint so I can ambush them out of a locker and kill them for being stupid for randomly patrolling maints aimlessly.

As an antag main, I disagree with this change.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by RaveRadbury » #643338

Istoprocent1 wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 3:07 am Locking security out of the maintenance is counterproductive, because now they cannot do their job which is already rather limited in scope and results in reduction of fun for the security.
Sec's job isn't to patrol maint for antags and if the role is less fun for you because you can't do that it sounds like the right thing has been done here.

Give maint access to everyone but sec.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by sinfulbliss » #643364

RaveRadbury wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:56 am Sec's job isn't to patrol maint for antags
Sec's job is to stop crime. Antags are there to do crime. Maint is the best place to do crime. Therefore sec should have maint access.
RaveRadbury wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:56 amGive maint access to everyone but sec.
Lots of people already choose not to play sec because they can do the same thing sec does except without the added responsibility and standards. This would just further disincentive actually playing the role and encourage people to just choose a job that gets maint access instead. This is only not an issue on Manuel because validhunting is banned.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Turbonerd » #643365

The people that choose not to play security to do the "same" thing as security aren't really people we would want to play as security, or anything really.

I don't really think security should be patrolling in maintenance all round, that's not really interesting or helpful for crew. Security should focus on upholding the law, and keeping peace in the station with crew and stopping crime. They should be there to let crew have a sense of security in their work environment. Security could just ask HoP for a warrant to access maintenance if there is a crime happening in there, or they could ask an engineer or AI to open the airlocks if it's an emergency and HoP isn't available.

Not everything needs to be about speedrunning antagonist hunting optimally, and the things I mentioned above are all roleplaying opportunities that could give a better story for the round.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by RaveRadbury » #643369

sinfulbliss wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:15 pm Sec's job is to stop crime.
Sec's job is to protect the station and the staff. Subtle difference.
sinfulbliss wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:15 pm
RaveRadbury wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:56 amGive maint access to everyone but sec.
This would just further disincentive actually playing the role and encourage people to just choose a job that gets maint access instead.
Good. The people who refuse to play sec over this aren't the people we want playing sec in the first place. Heavy is the hand that wields the batong. Those who stay and the new players that join them will be that much better and bring glory to the red uniform.

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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Agux909 » #643371

RaveRadbury wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:01 pm
sinfulbliss wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:15 pm
RaveRadbury wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:56 amGive maint access to everyone but sec.
This would just further disincentive actually playing the role and encourage people to just choose a job that gets maint access instead.
Good. The people who refuse to play sec over this aren't the people we want playing sec in the first place. Heavy is the hand that wields the batong. Those who stay and the new players that join them will be that much better and bring glory to the red uniform.
If this is the core sentiment behind this change then I can't say I'm against it. Just bear in mind it'll be a rocky road until we get there, with a lot of spiteful and pissed players, and a lot of new players experiencing the worst of playing sec.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by sinfulbliss » #643379

RaveRadbury wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:01 pmGood. The people who refuse to play sec over this aren't the people we want playing sec in the first place. Heavy is the hand that wields the batong. Those who stay and the new players that join them will be that much better and bring glory to the red uniform.
Turbonerd wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 1:45 pmThe people that choose not to play security to do the "same" thing as security aren't really people we would want to play as security, or anything really.
People who decide they can do just as good as security as nonsec, and not have to bother with the restrictions, and keep themselves open to conversions/midround antags, are not necessarily bad as security players. Many of them are great as security players, and I don't mean "wordlessly validhunts through maint all round." Actual fun players who would fill the role well and benefit the station as a result, choose not to because of the limitations that come with the role, and not having maintenance is just another one on the pile. I know quite a few people like this.

You are right about this part though: new players will continue to play security. Of the ones that actually enjoy themselves, after they get decent at it, most quit to play another job after realizing they don't need to be sec to play sec. But that's fine, they're shitty sec players anyway and new players will replace them? I don't understand the logic here.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Pandarsenic » #643390

When did Security get Maint access added standard, anyway?
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by SkeletalElite » #643408

Personally I don't like sec not having maint access, but I also really don't like assisstants having maint access so if those 2 things go hand in hand I say keep it gone.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by san7890 » #643413

I believe there was a vote/poll conducted on this, where are the results to that?
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by BONERMASTER » #643436

RaveRadbury wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:01 pm
sinfulbliss wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:15 pm
RaveRadbury wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:56 amGive maint access to everyone but sec.
This would just further disincentive actually playing the role and encourage people to just choose a job that gets maint access instead.
Good. The people who refuse to play sec over this aren't the people we want playing sec in the first place. Heavy is the hand that wields the batong. Those who stay and the new players that join them will be that much better and bring glory to the red uniform.
Apologies, this will sound direct, but may I ask, who exactly you picture security playing? Because the way you're describing this change, makes it seem like only the 'bad' validhunters would be mad about it, while the 'good' security players wouldn't mind it. You're describing a rite of passage even, where new players will be molded by the veteran players that stayed, and be the respectful and fair security personnel that we all want to have.

To me, these may be well intended statements, but I don't believe these to be grounded in reality. I think maintenance access is well justified for security personnel to have. Truthfully, this is hardly the reason why some individual security players fall into this role of the 'validhunter'. Depending on the server, you are subject to extremely grievous behavior from the rest of the crew. This ranges from verbal abuse, getting attacked in the hallways, having your services denied, non-stop harassment IC or even OOC to administrators abusing and threatening you for non-existing rule violations.

I think these individual players are simply fed up with this extreme showing of hostility, for a role that is supposed to protect the crew (!), and this is what either moves them to quit entirely, or by returning the hostility back to the crew by punishing them to the fullest extent of the law.
To me, that security players are subject to regular harassment, both from the crew and from the administrators, is not even a question. To take away their maint access, is not only disregarding the ongoing abuse against them, it is directly abusing them itself!

If a more motivated security force, with certain ethical standards and practices, is the goal, then you have to start with the factors that I previousely mentioned. Taking away their maintenance access does not adress any of the issues that lead to individual security players becoming 'validhunters', it only further bolsters their feeling that security players are not valued and desired on this server.

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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #643453

I like assistants having maintenance access because if you ever want maintenance access all you have to do is punk an assistant.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by RaveRadbury » #643460

BONERMASTER wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:28 pm You're describing a rite of passage even, where new players will be molded by the veteran players that stayed, and be the respectful and fair security personnel that we all want to have.
That's not what I'm saying at all. Your argument is verging into "Look at all the people I save in medbay when I play doctor pls unban" territory because you're claiming that it is an above-and-beyond benefit that people would play a role when it's actually bare minimum job content. If every active sec player stopped playing sec and went onto other roles or servers new players would still show up, pick up the equipment, and figure things out on their own. You can't guarantee that there will be some sort of unbroken lineage of sec influence and such a thing isn't even inherently a good idea. Ultimately sec behavior is shaped by the tools they are allowed, one of which has been taken away here.

I'll go a step further: if people stop playing sec, if no one signs up for sec, the game will go on and people will keep having fun.
BONERMASTER wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:28 pm If a more motivated security force, with certain ethical standards and practices, is the goal, then you have to start with the factors that I previousely mentioned. Taking away their maintenance access does not adress any of the issues that lead to individual security players becoming 'validhunters', it only further bolsters their feeling that security players are not valued and desired on this server.
It addresses the issue of kill hungry rent-a-cops zooming around in circles in maint, which is why it was taken away. These sec players are not valued or desired on this server.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by BeeSting12 » #643463

There's nothing wrong with security not having maintenance access as long as assistants aren't given that luxury either. Not to be stereotypical, but assistants tend to have a high population of players who mess with security for their own entertainment. To give those players an easy escape path from security would allow them to commit minor IC crime consequence free. Security and assistants should be on even playing ground against each other, I don't give a shit about fighting antags in maint I'm just here to kill tiders.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by sinfulbliss » #643469

RaveRadbury wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:07 amI'll go a step further: if people stop playing sec, if no one signs up for sec, the game will go on and people will keep having fun.
This is a very surprising take. I imagine you'd agree that if people stopped playing medbay, or engineer, or even scientist, it would seriously impact how much fun people have. No one gets healed/revived, power doesn't get setup, station doesn't get fixed, no research is ever done. Why is the security department uniquelly unneeded? Without security antags can simply mow through the crew to their liking. This may not be an issue on MRP where the crew is protected by the rules, but think of antag rounds without sec on LRP servers. Many people get RR'd and have their rounds ruined.
RaveRadbury wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:07 amIt addresses the issue of kill hungry rent-a-cops zooming around in circles in maint, which is why it was taken away. These sec players are not valued or desired on this server.
I find it silly to demonize this playstyle in a blanket way. Yes, it's cringe to do this as your primary form of play. But there is a time and place for everything. The scientist working on a special round project will greatly appreciate the station not being taken over by a cult, or bursting in flames due to a malf AI, and this sort of gameplay is often necessary to mitigate those threats. You can't always just wait until the threat smacks you in the face, sometimes you have to be prophylactic to, as you said, "protect the station and staff."

This is a complicating balancing act I've talked about extensively with experienced sec players before. You have to be somewhat proactive, but not overzealous, or you're rushing extended mode and making the round boring. I'm not sure any sec player gets this balance perfect, but everyone should agree it at least is a balance. Maint is a QoL benefit for sec. Sec who are overzealous validhunting rent-a-cops will continue to be overzealous validhunting rent-a-cops, regardless of access to maint. Sec who are well-balanced "protectors" that know when to fight and when to relax will continue to be this way, regardless of access to maint, and they shouldn't be punished for the actions of the bad apples.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by RaveRadbury » #643471

sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:07 am
RaveRadbury wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:07 amI'll go a step further: if people stop playing sec, if no one signs up for sec, the game will go on and people will keep having fun.
This is a very surprising take. I imagine you'd agree that if people stopped playing medbay, or engineer, or even scientist, it would seriously impact how much fun people have. No one gets healed/revived, power doesn't get setup, station doesn't get fixed, no research is ever done. Why is the security department uniquelly unneeded? Without security antags can simply mow through the crew to their liking. This may not be an issue on MRP where the crew is protected by the rules, but think of antag rounds without sec on LRP servers. Many people get RR'd and have their rounds ruined.
I do not agree.

Only MRP has a stay in your lane rule and even then it only applies when job slots are actively filled. Any department could be unstaffed and the game will go on and people will keep having fun.


sinfulbliss wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:07 am Without security antags can simply mow through the crew to their liking.
Everyone knows this is absolutely untrue regardless of ruleset. All departments produce offensive tools, you yourself argued earlier that people will stop playing sec so they can get valids under a different role.
sinfulbliss wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:52 pm You are right about this part though: new players will continue to play security. Of the ones that actually enjoy themselves, after they get decent at it, most quit to play another job after realizing they don't need to be sec to play sec. But that's fine, they're shitty sec players anyway and new players will replace them? I don't understand the logic here.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by sinfulbliss » #643476

RaveRadbury wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:16 amAny department could be unstaffed and the game will go on and people will keep having fun.
Understaffed and "no one signs up for the job" are two very different things. While people can fill in for any job in absences, it's a fact that say, a lack of a medical department, will result in fewer people getting back into the round. This is less fun. The same logic applies to all departments to varying degrees.
RaveRadbury wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:16 am
sinfulbliss wrote:Without security antags can simply mow through the crew to their liking.
Everyone knows this is absolutely untrue regardless of ruleset. All departments produce offensive tools, you yourself argued earlier that people will stop playing sec so they can get valids under a different role.
People being able to play sec as nonsec doesn't mean the lack of sec is inconsequential. The validhunter can catch antags nearly as well as a security officer with the proper preparation, you are right - just as the assistant can heal people as well as a doctor with preparation. That doesn't mean the department is unaffected by the lack of players. More people get revived with a medical department. More crewmembers doing their jobs are protected with a security department.

Playing antag with 10 security officers versus 0 security officers will be a significantly more challenging experience. It absolutely affects the degree to which they can mow through the crew and do their bidding.
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Re: give officers maint access back

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #643516

sinfulbliss wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:15 pm
RaveRadbury wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:56 am Sec's job isn't to patrol maint for antags
Sec's job is to stop crime. Antags are there to do crime. Maint is the best place to do crime. Therefore sec should have maint access.
Most crime actually happens in departments. You know, where all the stuff everyone, most antags included wants is? The only thing that happens in maint is engineer autism projects and antag bases.
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