Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

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Sylphet
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Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by Sylphet » #642440

It's a little ridiculous that we have rulings from close to ten years ago buried in the depths of the forums where no mortal eyes have seen them since their posting. Players cannot be reasonably expected to follow these, and no admin wants to dive into the forums to find where an ancient ruling is on the off chance that it comes up in a ticket. If these rulings are here and unenforced, then why do we bother having them ? If these rulings are here and enforced, it's totally unfair to players (and admins).

Requiring rulings to be on the wiki to be valid and enforceable makes our rules more transparent and accessible to players while ensuring that all future rulings are properly documented.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #642441

Sounds good in theory, probably impractical in reality. Updating the wiki requires work, and I don't expect Timberpoes to crack out the whip on the wiki team every time the headmin team makes a decision.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by Sylphet » #642442

I have never in my entire time as an admin used any ruling that was not already on the rulings page. The work involved in this is zero if we choose to treat it as a reset of rulings. If there's some valuable ruling hiding down on page 10, we can simply add it to the wiki - a small handful of additions at most.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by wesoda25 » #642444

Too much work I think. There’s probably some stuff we all enforce that isn’t written down or originally was in some random thread. Not everything can or will be documented and that’s not a big deal because A: admins should not start with bans and B: players always have the opportunity to challenge notes, bans, and rulings.

Ie in the few situations where I see this being a problem, it actually isn’t that big of a problem.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by NamelessFairy » #642449

During my time as an active admin and even before then I effectively committed important policy rulings to memory, I found in extremely useful, many policy rulings come up too rarely to warrant being on the wiki but when they do come up they convert what will likely be a massive ban appeal/long conversation in admin channels/new policy discussion into a open and shut case as the debate has already been settled. The policy forum could certainly use a cleanup yes, but invalidating it all is the lazy way of doing this and as a former headmin I'm genuinely insulted that you want to throw away the time and effort put into reading and responding to these.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by Nabski » #642450

There's 27 pages of policy discussion. If I said "ur dum" and someone pointed me to this thread and said "this is against a headmin ruling" I would say to that admin "ur dum".
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=20120

The policy on buying meme shuttles was settled all the way back in this thread in 2017. Why did we just have a thread about it instead of people pointing out and referencing it.
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=11930

We solved racism back in 2016 with this thread. Why did we have to have an additional ruling made on it when it had "already been settled"
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=6094

To say that just because it's somewhere in this forum and expect players to know about it is an insult to existence.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by CMDR_Gungnir » #642451

NamelessFairy wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 3:32 pm During my time as an active admin and even before then I effectively committed important policy rulings to memory, I found in extremely useful, many policy rulings come up too rarely to warrant being on the wiki but when they do come up they convert what will likely be a massive ban appeal/long conversation in admin channels/new policy discussion into a open and shut case as the debate has already been settled. The policy forum could certainly use a cleanup yes, but invalidating it all is the lazy way of doing this and as a former headmin I'm genuinely insulted that you want to throw away the time and effort put into reading and responding to these.
But it shouldn't necessarily be an open and shut case. Sure it might be easier for you to be able to just go "oh hey this thing was mentioned a single time six years ago" but noone wants to, or should be, dunked on for a piece of policy that can only be found if you scroll back six pages of the Policy Discussion forum.

Sylphet's right, it SHOULD all be put in the one place, because how can we tell people to read and follow the rules, if that also means reading 20 pages of forums?
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by Misdoubtful » #642462

I just don't hold people that accountable for, or grill people for, guidelines they can not easily find themselves ahead of time.

Like the majority of policy discussion things.

When they do come into play I use them to clarify things and that's about it. They know the precedent for the futures sake.

Not about to eat Joe Shmoe alive for not knowing the outcome of a policy thread from 5 years ago that isn't listed anywhere and isn't clear as day to find.

It's definitely concerning that people are willing to do things like ignore and try to change precedent already in place with these because they don't like them (outside of merit), rather than uphold them, but that's for another thread and another time.

Not to mention: how many people playing this game are invested enough to do things like look at a forum, or even a wiki, and keep up to date on them? In general for games, stuff like that is already an incredibly heavy investment done by the minority.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by terranaut » #642472

NamelessFairy wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 3:32 pm but invalidating it all is the lazy way of doing this and as a former headmin I'm genuinely insulted that you want to throw away the time and effort put into reading and responding to these.
A bureaucrats work is supposed to make life easier, not harder. If a bureaucracy becomes too bloated and resists reform, it's time to tear it down. Your personal feelings in the matter are irrelevant and that you put them above the usability of the general playerbase is weird.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by Mothblocks » #642490

you're not expecting players to be reading every headmin ruling on the wiki, are you?
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by NamelessFairy » #642495

Mothblocks wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 8:45 pm you're not expecting players to be reading every headmin ruling on the wiki, are you?
Echoing this, during my term we were very strict with not flooding the headmin rulings page with everything useful since we wanted it to be readable, keeping the forums for everything except absolute critical policy or things that could easily be turned into noobtraps.
terranaut wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 7:35 pm
NamelessFairy wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 3:32 pm Snip
A bureaucrats work is supposed to make life easier, not harder. If a bureaucracy becomes too bloated and resists reform, it's time to tear it down. Your personal feelings in the matter are irrelevant and that you put them above the usability of the general playerbase is weird.
Established rulings makes an admins job easier, they're better for the playerbase then without them, as fringe cases would always be dice rolls for players with zero way to know if they're breaking the rules or not. Players should not be subjected to this opaqueness and should be allowed to know if they are breaking the rules or not when its unclear from the core rules.
CMDR_Gungnir wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 4:31 pm
NamelessFairy wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 3:32 pm Snip
But it shouldn't necessarily be an open and shut case. Sure it might be easier for you to be able to just go "oh hey this thing was mentioned a single time six years ago" but noone wants to, or should be, dunked on for a piece of policy that can only be found if you scroll back six pages of the Policy Discussion forum.

Sylphet's right, it SHOULD all be put in the one place, because how can we tell people to read and follow the rules, if that also means reading 20 pages of forums?
Theres forever room for further debate over old policy, but if policy is established and well maintained then it should be open and shut. We don't need to have a conversation about validity of talking mimes every single time a mime talks for example, there should be one ruling and it should be consistent. This point can also be directed to Nabski, times change, policy can be updated and re-discussed to adapt to the change, but if something works it should remain like that until it doesn't.

End of replies.

Policy exists for the purpose of consistent and transparent rulings for admins and players alike, sure the format they're in is not the best, I proposed an improvement project internally that got lackluster volunteering, so this is what we have for the time being. A lack of established policy only serves to make administration unfair and opaque. You'll get less consistency between different admins and you'll be caught off guide by secret rulebreaks (determined by the currently online admin).
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by terranaut » #642496

Sifting through countless pages of policy discussion and wiki documentation is not making anything easier for players or admins. Instead of punishing a player who's breaking some rule that's been established 7 years ago in a moldy forum thread but never documented because technically he's in the wrong, which doesn't help anybody and just creates butthurt, an admin should just use their best judgement, and probably not apply any punishment in those edge cases and just warn the player. If players are simply being low quality shitheads, rule 0 exists precisely as a tool for quality control bans, and mountains of paragraphs are not needed.
The only opacity comes from the amount of legal text and weird precedents one is required to know to fully navigate the rules.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by WineAllWine » #642497

It's unreasonable to expect players to have read every policy thread's conclusion. It's borderline unreasonable to expect them to have read the headmin rulings wiki page. Admins should know them, and can note for like "Hey, dont [eg. disconnect the plasma atmos tank roundstart]" but they shouldnt ban for it without priors
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by NamelessFairy » #642503

terranaut wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 9:36 pm Snip
Theres a ton to sift through in this post and its too much of a mess to actually break it down into point so as a general response. Policy goes hand in hand with admin discretion/rule 0/common sense, you need both. If you only have policy then you'd need to have a ton of debates on exact values and exact borders on where each policy lands, if you only had admin discretion then every ruling would be different depending on which admin you get. Admin discretion especially comes in handy for policy that no-longer accurately depicts the game, whereas policy becomes more important for emerging behaviors, good admins will balance the two.
I'd also like to hear about this example of a player getting banned for breaking a 7 year old policy thread. Assuming its an obsolete ruling then I'm confident our admin team would use their discretion to not try and enforce it. If its stood the test of time, isn't that good? Wouldn't a consistent and reliable ruling be better than a roll of the dice?
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by Drag » #642509

I don't think invalidating any of the rulings will solve anything, to be completely honest. I do however think that headmin rulings should be accessible from a list.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by Shellton(Mario) » #642514

I agree with the above statement. I always thought Policy discussion has been a pain in the ass to read and there should be somewhere which centralizes the rulings of each topic.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by cybersaber101 » #642526

If it's hard for admins and/or players to find and remember then why not have it either a) removed or b) easier to find?
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by sinfulbliss » #642543

IMO you have to choose a side. You either expect players to read the headmin rulings page on the Wiki or you don't. If you do, it should be as slim as possible with only extremely common-issue rulings staying. If you don't, you might as well pile on every single ruling that was ever made for admins to have an easier time looking them up.
Nabski wrote:The policy on buying meme shuttles was settled all the way back in this thread in 2017. Why did we just have a thread about it instead of people pointing out and referencing it.
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=11930
I read through this and, it was by no stretch of the imagination "settled." There wasn't even a ruling made here.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by Misdoubtful » #642556

To be fair, the shuttle one was (and still is one of the 900 links there) in the headmin ruling about shuttles.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by NikNakFlak » #642578

sinfulbliss wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 1:07 pm
Nabski wrote:The policy on buying meme shuttles was settled all the way back in this thread in 2017. Why did we just have a thread about it instead of people pointing out and referencing it.
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=11930
I read through this and, it was by no stretch of the imagination "settled." There wasn't even a ruling made here.
Gotta agree with sinfulbliss here. The threads you linked Nabski are nowhere near "settled" at all. In fact, the racism thread is hilariously lackluster. It's a shit ton of shitposts with one post from a single headmin (were they at the time?) on how it should be handled. Not only has /tg/'s stance as a whole changed and can change for specific instances (as the shuttle one has), but at least link threads of actual sustenance. What you did almost feels like bad faith here Nabski, kinda dissapointing.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by NikNakFlak » #642579

ok the ur one seems settled but that one is stupid af, not because of the ruling but because it was even made in the first place
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by Nabski » #642581

NikNak, I picked the ones I did because
1. These forums are full of junk and it's hard to tell what is and isn't useful. The fact that the Ur one was made by a player that is now an admin implies it might be a more important policy, but it's just shitposting
2. That shuttle one is on the wiki/rules. If you read through that thread and didn't see an obvious answer, shame on you! The true point of that is that it's not clear and obvious from the thread, and despite that it was considered a "better" ruling/policy thread.
3. The last one was just funny and semi-topical for something that was current then and current now but also showed how far back the forums go. We've been having the same discussions for 8 years.

It was mostly just a fun trip down memory lane picking threads at random. I wanted a stupid one, one that had an unclear ruling, and an old one that was still relevant/having issues.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by NikNakFlak » #642611

1. ok
2. Didn't read it
3. ok
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by oranges » #642631

doesn't matter cause none of them get enforced anyway, it's basically already a true fact that they are invalid.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by BeeSting12 » #642663

It's a pain in the ass to go through the old policy discussions to update the wiki's headmin rulings. I would know because I put a good amount up there when I was able to edit the page. The best we can do is update it with fresh rulings. The headmin rulings are also really only needed in cases where it's a gray area on if rule 1 is being violated or for people who are too dumb to know that what they're doing is a rule 1 violation, so the headmins must tell them.

At the end of the day admins aren't going back ten pages of policy discussions to find an obscure rule you're breaking, they're most likely creating the ban/note because what you're doing is a rule 1 violation/disrupting others' experiences. Then they go back and find a six year old policy thread or precedent behind the specific thing you're doing to justify said ruling.
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Re: Invalidate all Headmin Rulings! (that aren't on the wiki)

Post by Mothblocks » #644453

Players already should not be expected to read every headmin ruling that is on the wiki and adding onto it more for extremely niche rulings is not helpful to anyone.
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