ban players for metagaming antagonists via code oversights, ie. ban antag testing entirely

[iamgoofball]

currently we have an issue report up on the repo where people are IDing paradox clones by demanding they confirm their bank account ID and then killing them if they can't

this is blatant metagaming by abusing an oversight with how paradox clones copy the target, but admins aren't acting on it and players have had to ask the coders to fix it

we all agreed that changeling MMI testing is bad and an exploit, so why can't we just blanket ban antag testing via shitty exploits/oversights like this?

"just fix it" is not always the solution because often these tests come as a result of fundamental architecture issues that require either hardcoded shitcode or massive refactors of how the game works to fix properly(ie. changeling MMI tests abusing how minds transfer around for changelings)

while we can fix minor issues like paradox clones not having their bank account details, players shouldn't be feeling like it's okay for them to be doing this kind of antag-checking on the regular and the hands-off approach to adminning that the server's taken in the last few years to avoid upsetting people has seriously limited our ability as game designers to not have to baby-proof every single thing against bad faith actors

please enforce the rules as written without us having to prod you guys in policy discussion every time a player behavioral issue happens, or rewrite the rules to allow metagaming like this already so that we can declare the server a lost cause and continue the separation of server and codebase

also, daily reminder for the peanut gallery commenters, metagaming does not exclusively refer to cheating via communicating out of game with people in the same match as you

the rule 2 precedent that you can know how antags work is so that you can know a traitor can buy and use an e-sword, not that you can know that paradox clones don't have bank account PINs so you can metagame them by forcing them to either activate a bank account on an ID card or be shot to death

[Scriptis]

Honestly just re-title to "ban antag testing entirely"

I agree with this stance. In the past I've been handed a gun and told "hey shoot this gun" as a test for sleeping carp (I had sleeping carp) (it was lame).

[Timberpoes]

There's already some precedent for this in the fact that ling-tests (such as the MMI test) are banned.

That was always a compromise where the coding team admits it simply cannot prevent a certain thing (a player can't control their MMI'd brain and their ling body at the same time) but the goal or intent was for that thing to not be a tell. If I recall correctly, lings were meant to have 0 "hard" tells unless and until they choose to reveal themselves.

It's a very difficult thing to police in general, as players tend to be very subtle and sly about how they antag test others. And ultimately I think our administration comes down to what the codebase says is and is not intended. The admin team tends to be the last line of defense against players abusing unintended or lame antag tells.

It also very much intersects with Server Rule 2 as well; "... Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists"

Does anyone think there's scope to rethink that part of Rule 2?

[Jacquerel]

Is this an endemic issue or are you assuming that someone making an issue report based on an event which occurred once on one round is a trend?

It’s a good thing to be policy but it isn’t clear that this wouldn’t already have been enforced if ahelped.

[iamgoofball]

It’s a good thing to be policy but it isn’t clear that this wouldn’t already have been enforced if ahelped.

our playerbase absolutely feels comfortable engaging in this level of metagame because they know the admin team won't step in until it gets egregious enough that the codebase asks for something to be done because of the current overton window on what constitutes an IC issue, or we forcefully fix the issue by making whatever behavior they were engaging in impossible

the overton window for "this is an IC issue" right now with the current admin team is shifted so far to the right that anything short of murdering someone without following the escalation rules is labelled an IC issue, and thus fair play if it falls within those rules

people aren't going to ahelp shit when people agree this is normal and regular gameplay; if it's normal for security to paradox clone check people by asking them for their bank PIN every round, people won't ahelp it and admins won't act on it because nobody's ahelping it, resulting in more and more normalization of that kind of metagame

at this point in time, the only playerbase quality control that the admins enforce regularly is whether or not someone broke the escalation rules, and players have absolutely noticed and began basing their gameplay entirely around escalation and what constitutes valid escalation

the fact that players can walk up and hold you at gunpoint and force you to run through a series of metagame tests by abusing mechanics we designed to balance shit, or bugs that we can't fix right this moment, to determine if you fall under escalation or not as a valid kill while admins sit by staring and watching to make sure they confirmed the test as positive before killing you is fucking ridiculous

there's no ability for us to expect any level of good faith play as designers when this is the environment the people who are supposed to be dealing with bad faith play curated

when i asked two of our admins if they've considered that declaring everything an IC issue and leaving shit to escalation 90% of the time is crippling our ability as game designers to make a functional fucking video game, they told me that

1. the code is "shit anyways"
2. "players shouldn't be whinging to admins over every little thing"

source:

https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 6243155106

as I said in the OP:

please enforce the rules as written without us having to prod you guys in policy discussion every time a player behavioral issue happens, or rewrite the rules to allow metagaming like this already so that we can declare the server a lost cause and continue the separation of server and codebase

[iamgoofball]

i suppose a better title for this is "lax enforcement of the spirit of the rules is making game design a nightmare"

[Turbonerd]

People shouldn't be using rule 2 as a way to allow them to find out antagonists, especially if it's fail RP. Cultists can't fake being unable to use the dagger because there is no code that allows them to. In this example using the cult dagger test is fail RP because they are abusing code to force an antag tell that just doesn't make any sense IC wise, and also exploit abuse.

I suppose a good ruling is people are only allowed to act on an antagonist if the reveal made IC sense and RP is involved in it. If someone does fail RP in order to find out someone is an antagonist, then they get instantly banned.

[iamgoofball]

i suppose a better title for this is "lax enforcement of the spirit of the rules is making game design a nightmare"

to provide an example, let's say i'm playing chef and I ahelp that Shitlord McGreytide is griefing my kitchen, stealing all my shit, blocking my chef robots, lighting all my crap on fire, deconstructing my machinery and taking key parts so I can't rebuild it, etc.

if I ahelp that I'm being griefed as the chef i'm gonna be told to sort it out IC unless that grief involves me or the guy griefing me being dead

if I or the greyshit are dead, then the route that I or the greyshit ended up dead is going to be hyper-analyzed to make sure the escalation flowchart was followed, and admins will hand down a verdict on that alone

there will be no investigation into whether or not I was actually being griefed beyond whether or not it constituted valid escalation if I killed the greytider over it, and if I didn't kill the greytider over it, I'm gonna get told it's an IC issue and to sort it out myself

when that one asshole greytided engineering so much live on video that we nerfed spear backpack crafting and destroyed hooch as a powergame tool for assistants as a result, people weren't as concerned with how fundamentally awful he was to engineering that round, they were more concerned with the violation of the fancy new escalation rules that was committed and how what he did was a violation of that

it's like we've lost all lenses to view situations through with the exception of escalation and valid/non-valid

do admins even quantify being a dick for rule 1 as anything other than escalation violations nowadays?

our entire RP ruleset is written around dictating new terms for escalation and who/what is valid

outside of edge case rules like rule 8, every ban that's come through appeals recently has been arguments over escalation and who followed the flowchart better and who broke from the flowchart

this is not an environment conductive to designing a good immersive roleplaying game

[MooCow12]

People shouldn't be using rule 2 as a way to allow them to find out antagonists, especially if it's fail RP. Cultists can't fake being unable to use the dagger because there is no code that allows them to.

I`ve used the collapse emote a few times to trick people, you dont get the shaking but most people dont really notice that and its why I believe it`s not metagame, people are allowed to know the parameters and consequences of using a weapon just from their own experience and they`ll still likely fail to catch antags as long as you give them any form of doubt.


Ling test is only banned because its a genuine bug/oversight that can be fixed by just allowing changelings to either directly control their disconnected brain or opting to have a ghost take over, possibly with policy stating that they will never hurt their original host even if laws conflict because ling brain can mess with borg shell from the inside idk.

I think a better reason to blanket ban these sorts of tests is because it wastes peoples time (atleast when there is no bug or oversight involved), like when (i forgot if it was axle or reider) tried to take out a heretics heart to see if he had a living heart (but its coded so it becomes a normal heart when you take it out) essentially wasting 10 minutes of the heretic`s time for simply being like 4 rooms away after they killed me (it looked like bs from a ghost`s perspective)

[Shellton(Mario)]

me when antags die to valid hunter #5807
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNr7nXv ... ENDIFEROUS

Policy Approved

[CPTANT]

Honestly just re-title to "ban antag testing entirely"

I agree with this stance. In the past I've been handed a gun and told "hey shoot this gun" as a test for sleeping carp (I had sleeping carp) (it was lame).

No one is going to do this without a darn big suspicion that you actually have it.

[Pandarsenic]

I think there's a serious need to revisit rule 2 if people think "traitors have telecrystals to buy traitor items and do certain syndicate objectives" and "Oh the clown has a fucking clown bomb, great" should be considered the same as "tell us your credit card info to prove you're not a Paradox Clone"

Honestly just re-title to "ban antag testing entirely"

I agree with this stance. In the past I've been handed a gun and told "hey shoot this gun" as a test for sleeping carp (I had sleeping carp) (it was lame).

No one is going to do this without a darn big suspicion that you actually have it.

I really, really wish you were correct about this, but some people absolutely will do that just to check.

[iamgoofball]

Hey, guess fucking what, admins declared it as an IC issue that people were holding paradox clones up for their bank PINs
Scriptis and Trexter decided to rule this as an IC issue despite it being the world's most obvious antag testing metagame bullshit on the planet.
Seth posted this on the issue report for the paradox clone thing:


Surely, the admins didn't really do this, so I reach out to a contact to confirm, and they point me to this comment by a member of the admin team:


I reach out to Seth to confirm this occured, and Seth sends me the photographs of his ticket as he doesn't know how to mark it as public(link at https://bus.moth.fans/tickets/201650/1)



we cannot have a functioning video game if the refs are willingly asleep at the wheel during the most obvious violations of the spirit and integrity of good faith gameplay

this is like if football refs ignored all fouls unless the guy getting fouled died, then after being yelled at said "look buddy he was off-side, it's legit" as the fouling player hits the guy's head with a sledgehammer for not presenting his bank PIN

[TypicalRig]

i don't really see how it's good for the game that players are allowed to threaten someone with "use this heretic blade/cult dagger on me or die" and that's an allowed procedure. it's not like this is an intended feature and is instead a byproduct of trying to keep regular players from benefitting from antag only gear. it's clearly already an exploit that people are abusing, just admins are too timid to act on it. as a player I hate this shit so much that even if I'm not an antag I will refuse to do the test just to spite play to winners like this.

+1 make it not allowed. mmi test already sets the precedent for it

[Scriptis]

...

This is how policy is enforced right now. You'll notice that the first reply in this thread is me saying we should do away with enforcing the policy like this because it's bullshit

i.e., this is me still agreeing with you

i.e., this is how I've been treated in the past and I am merely carrying on the torch (it's still bullshit) (we should still ban it)

[rasonj]

Honestly just re-title to "ban antag testing entirely"

I agree with this stance. In the past I've been handed a gun and told "hey shoot this gun" as a test for sleeping carp (I had sleeping carp) (it was lame).

No one is going to do this without a darn big suspicion that you actually have it.

I was observing that round. Brick was accused of having carp by some random assistant. Reider arrested him and then threw a gun in his cell and told him to shoot him with it or be executed for having carp. Antag testings is a big part of the playing to win mindset, as the objective is to kill as many valids as possible. I agree with goof policy should step in where coding can't cover it to stop this mindset, but asking admins to make policy on their own is the wrong solution. Threads like this are the solution.

[iamgoofball]

...

This is how policy is enforced right now. You'll notice that the first reply in this thread is me saying we should do away with enforcing the policy like this because it's bullshit

i.e., this is me still agreeing with you

i.e., this is how I've been treated in the past and I am merely carrying on the torch (it's still bullshit) (we should still ban it)

Policy is enforced how the individual admin chooses to enforce it.

You chose to enforce it this way, you don't get to hide behind "but thats policy" when the entire point here is the spirit of the rules is being disregarded in favor of this bullshit.

This is cowardly and you should reflect on your behavior in that ahelp and in posting this deflection of guilt.

[Scriptis]

...

Don't be a hypocrite. If you're doing something you'd normally ban someone for doing, you're breaking this.

I didn't get any special treatment when this happened to me, I shouldn't give it to somebody else unless the policy changes.

I want the policy changed, so I am posting in policy discussion.

That's how policy works.

[NecromancerAnne]

I didn't get any special treatment when this happened to me, I shouldn't give it to somebody else unless the policy changes.

I want the policy changed, so I am posting in policy discussion.

That's how policy works.

You are in the position to do better than your predecessors, and can act in your better judgement regardless of policy if ultimately what you believe you're ruling on is in favour of a better overall experience, which you are 100% empowered to weigh and enact as needed. While I've not strong foot in the race in this discussion, you should absolutely rethink your stance on your conduct. You should be acting in this manner if you believe in it, since that is how change can be made and you need to back your argument for such a change with actual evidence of it working.

You need not continue to repeat bad experiences that have happened to you upon someone else. You are absolutely missing the point of your role if you can only see the rules in place as anything more than guide for you to apply as needed in the overall goal of fairness for everyone.

[Pandarsenic]

You are in the position to do better than your predecessors, and can act in your better judgement regardless of policy if ultimately what you believe you're ruling on is in favour of a better overall experience, which you are 100% empowered to weigh and enact as needed. While I've not strong foot in the race in this discussion, you should absolutely rethink your stance on your conduct. You should be acting in this manner if you believe in it, since that is how change can be made and you need to back your argument for such a change with actual evidence of it working.

You need not continue to repeat bad experiences that have happened to you upon someone else. You are absolutely missing the point of your role if you can only see the rules in place as anything more than guide for you to apply as needed in the overall goal of fairness for everyone.

The flip side of this is that we all agree, becoming admin, that we'll enforce the rules as they are - even if we sometimes don't like them. There's not a lot of plausible deniability and when someone appeals it, "I know the rules/precedents are different but I don't like them" isn't going to get the ban upheld.

[CPTANT]

Honestly just re-title to "ban antag testing entirely"

I agree with this stance. In the past I've been handed a gun and told "hey shoot this gun" as a test for sleeping carp (I had sleeping carp) (it was lame).

No one is going to do this without a darn big suspicion that you actually have it.

I was observing that round. Brick was accused of having carp by some random assistant. Reider arrested him and then threw a gun in his cell and told him to shoot him with it or be executed for having carp. Antag testings is a big part of the playing to win mindset, as the objective is to kill as many valids as possible. I agree with goof policy should step in where coding can't cover it to stop this mindset, but asking admins to make policy on their own is the wrong solution. Threads like this are the solution.

Don't show you have sleeping carp to random assistants.

[sinfulbliss]

It seems to me that these issues are too niche to be worth editing rule 2. Ling MMI check and this paradox clone bank ID check - what else would qualify?

A couple years ago as HoS I tested someone for carp by telling them "catch" and then started shooting them. The bullets deflected. That's probably even worse than the example Scriptis gave, but I thought almost nothing of it except "heh aren't I clever" at the time. TG allows players to know all the mechanics in the game, including antag mechanics, so using knowledge of the mechanics to gain info seemed kosher to me.

I can sympathize with the "it's lame" argument. A very perfect rule for this seems to be Rule 12 though. It's absolutely playing to win to valid check someone with some obscure unintended code oversight. It only feels rulebreaking when the check uses actual code oversights (borderline exploits) rather than just using game knowledge. If Rule 2 is edited to extend to normal game knowledge then where is the line drawn - is a pen uplink check a valid check? Checking radio uplink? How about taking the encryption keys out? Surgery to check for implants? Maybe even checking the PDA of someone for a minor crime would be a rulebreaking valid check. I'd suspect any edit to rule 2 would end up giving some room for interpretation to admins, since you can't list every instance, and that would cause some issues in inconsistent enforcement.

I was observing that round. Brick was accused of having carp by some random assistant. Reider arrested him and then threw a gun in his cell and told him to shoot him with it or be executed for having carp. Antag testings is a big part of the playing to win mindset, as the objective is to kill as many valids as possible.

Sec needs proof to execute. A suspect refusing to shoot a gun is not proof of carp and neither is a random accusation, so that shouldn't have been adequate justification to execute anyway.

[BeeSting12]

I was observing that round. Brick was accused of having carp by some random assistant. Reider arrested him and then threw a gun in his cell and told him to shoot him with it or be executed for having carp.

The issue is reconciling this part of rule 4:

"Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists"

with rule 12 which forbids exclusively playing to win. I don't feel like the sleeping carp test goes against rule 12 in the unique situation listed above. Reider was acting on information gained by IC means that someone might have carp. He arrested said person and used a method which he's allowed by the rules to know. Something that goes against rule 12 would be shooting random people in the halls with disablers to see if a bullet deflects off a sleeping carp user.

In the paradox clone scenario, the admin was acting under the assumption that it's an intended part of the game that paradox clones don't know everything the actual person knows (which makes sense to me). Ideally, all antag tests would be fixed by code solutions and admins will only have to deal with banning antag tests in the most extreme cases where there's no possible code solution.. such as changeling MMI test.

I was observing that round. Brick was accused of having carp by some random assistant. Reider arrested him and then threw a gun in his cell and told him to shoot him with it or be executed for having carp. Antag testings is a big part of the playing to win mindset, as the objective is to kill as many valids as possible.

Sec needs proof to execute. A prisoner refusing to shoot a gun is not proof of carp, neither is a random accusation, so that shouldn't have been adequate justification to execute anyway.

Also, this seems like a pretty good point to make. This isn't valid justification to execute someone.

I'm now bordering into coding ideas, but would a viable solution to the changeling MMI test be allowing the changeling to switch between its brain and its body at will? If a new brain is placed in the changeling's body, the changeling can take over the brain in its body. Possibly even allow the changeling to give up control of its MMI brain to another player and give it the same objectives as the changeling with a direct telepathic link to the OG changeling and instructions to serve the master changeling. Would prevent there being a noticeable gap between the brain being placed in the MMI and the brain speaking. Also allows the changeling to grab a trusted buddy and use surgery to create INFINITE CLONES. Just an idea and most likely more trouble than it's worth given that we can just tell people not to MMI test lings.

[Screemonster]

The issue is reconciling this part of rule 4:

"Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists"

I'd say antag-tests also fall under "Non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause." - specifically the "search for" part. If someone hasn't already revealed themselves to be an antagonist, you shouldn't go out of your way to mechanically reveal them.

Remember when syndi-cakes healed traitors and sec were using it to antag-test by beating the shit out of people and feeding them cakes?

[CMDR_Gungnir]

The issue is reconciling this part of rule 4:

"Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists"

I'd say antag-tests also fall under "Non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause." - specifically the "search for" part. If someone hasn't already revealed themselves to be an antagonist, you shouldn't go out of your way to mechanically reveal them.

Remember when syndi-cakes healed traitors and sec were using it to antag-test by beating the shit out of people and feeding them cakes?

me on my way to test for revs by beating the shit out of someone and then giving them cuba libre to make up for it

[SkeletalElite]

The issue is reconciling this part of rule 4:

"Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists"

I'd say antag-tests also fall under "Non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause." - specifically the "search for" part. If someone hasn't already revealed themselves to be an antagonist, you shouldn't go out of your way to mechanically reveal them.

Remember when syndi-cakes healed traitors and sec were using it to antag-test by beating the shit out of people and feeding them cakes?

me on my way to test for revs by beating the shit out of someone and then giving them cuba libre to make up for it

I mean if you're gonna beat the shit out of people to rev test them you could just get a large amount of actual healing meds and just head target baton 20 times to see if they deconvert

edit: and as for the thread I think as long as you're not pre emptively testing for antags using their mechanics that's fine. If you know there is a paradox clone out there, the bank account test seems fine. If you're asking people when you don't even know about a paradox clone, that's metagaming.

[Turbonerd]

The issue is reconciling this part of rule 4:

"Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists"

I'd say antag-tests also fall under "Non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause." - specifically the "search for" part. If someone hasn't already revealed themselves to be an antagonist, you shouldn't go out of your way to mechanically reveal them.

Remember when syndi-cakes healed traitors and sec were using it to antag-test by beating the shit out of people and feeding them cakes?

me on my way to test for revs by beating the shit out of someone and then giving them cuba libre to make up for it

I mean if you're gonna beat the shit out of people to rev test them you could just get a large amount of actual healing meds and just head target baton 20 times to see if they deconvert

edit: and as for the thread I think as long as you're not pre emptively testing for antags using their mechanics that's fine. If you know there is a paradox clone out there, the bank account test seems fine. If you're asking people when you don't even know about a paradox clone, that's metagaming.

The bank account test is absolutely not fine and definitely an exploit that's getting fixed. There isn't supposed to be any way for people to tell who the paradox clone is. Using hard tells to out the clone easily is lame and counters the point of the antagonist. Just don't fucking do it.

You don't need to fucking do this to every antagonist. Stop using fucking exploits to find antagonists. Try RPing. If whatever test you do doesn't make sense IC wise or cheeses an antag, then it's lame and shouldn't be done.

[SkeletalElite]

The bank account test is absolutely not fine and definitely an exploit that's getting fixed. There isn't supposed to be any way for people to tell who the paradox clone is. Using hard tells to out the clone easily is lame and counters the point of the antagonist. Just don't fucking do it.

You don't need to fucking do this to every antagonist. Stop using fucking exploits to find antagonists. Try RPing. If whatever test you do doesn't make sense IC wise or cheeses an antag, then it's lame and shouldn't be done.

Just because it isn't supposed to be that way doesn't mean the admins need to get involved, and this particular issue doesn't seem to be game breaking. Just as long as it is not being used pre emptively, which would run afoul of rule 4.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

The bank account test is absolutely not fine and definitely an exploit that's getting fixed. There isn't supposed to be any way for people to tell who the paradox clone is. Using hard tells to out the clone easily is lame and counters the point of the antagonist. Just don't fucking do it.

You don't need to fucking do this to every antagonist. Stop using fucking exploits to find antagonists. Try RPing. If whatever test you do doesn't make sense IC wise or cheeses an antag, then it's lame and shouldn't be done.

Just because it isn't supposed to be that way doesn't mean the admins need to get involved, and this particular issue doesn't seem to be game breaking. Just as long as it is not being used pre emptively, which would run afoul of rule 4.

The problem is that admins aren't there to enforce the rules strictly to the letter, they're there to create the best experience possible. That's the goal they should have.

And using an exploit to find an antag before it does anything...how does that help the game or the round, man? In what way does going "Alright, we have two people here, one of them must be a paradox clone. TELL ME YOUR BANK DETAILS" improve the game? You haven't interacted with the antag. You haven't done anything. All you've done is just remove it from the round. Did that antag improve the round at all? The answer to all of those questions is 'No, it didn't improve the round.'

So then, why should we allow it?

[sinfulbliss]

I'd say antag-tests also fall under "Non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause." - specifically the "search for" part. If someone hasn't already revealed themselves to be an antagonist, you shouldn't go out of your way to mechanically reveal them.

I have not once ever in my 2000+ hours playing LRP, ever seen this enforced. Validhunting always happens on LRP. Cult? Players searching maints for cultists. Some guy's a traitor and got called out? Several validhunters in maints. I had to check to make sure this wasn't from the RP rules even.

[Vekter]

I'd say antag-tests also fall under "Non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause." - specifically the "search for" part. If someone hasn't already revealed themselves to be an antagonist, you shouldn't go out of your way to mechanically reveal them.

I have not once ever in my 2000+ hours playing LRP, ever seen this enforced. Validhunting always happens on LRP. Cult? Players searching maints for cultists. Some guy's a traitor and got called out? Several validhunters in maints. I had to check to make sure this wasn't from the RP rules even.

"Reasonable prior cause" is the part you're missing here. If everyone knows someone's a threat, people are going to hunt for them. Cult/Revs/Nuke ops is okay because they're a major threat to the station.

That being said, if someone's running around maint loaded up with power gear hunting a traitor, you should probably ahelp that.

[vect0r]

Admins, go ahead and bwoink people who do that. Just go "hey mate, not gonna note you, but that's not cool D:".

[SkeletalElite]

The bank account test is absolutely not fine and definitely an exploit that's getting fixed. There isn't supposed to be any way for people to tell who the paradox clone is. Using hard tells to out the clone easily is lame and counters the point of the antagonist. Just don't fucking do it.

You don't need to fucking do this to every antagonist. Stop using fucking exploits to find antagonists. Try RPing. If whatever test you do doesn't make sense IC wise or cheeses an antag, then it's lame and shouldn't be done.

Just because it isn't supposed to be that way doesn't mean the admins need to get involved, and this particular issue doesn't seem to be game breaking. Just as long as it is not being used pre emptively, which would run afoul of rule 4.

The problem is that admins aren't there to enforce the rules strictly to the letter, they're there to create the best experience possible. That's the goal they should have.

And using an exploit to find an antag before it does anything...how does that help the game or the round, man? In what way does going "Alright, we have two people here, one of them must be a paradox clone. TELL ME YOUR BANK DETAILS" improve the game? You haven't interacted with the antag. You haven't done anything. All you've done is just remove it from the round. Did that antag improve the round at all? The answer to all of those questions is 'No, it didn't improve the round.'

So then, why should we allow it?

If security (or other valid hunter) has figured out there is a paradox clone running about and the exact person of which they are a clone, that means the cat is out of the bag. Is it supposed to be harder than it currently is to figure which of the two is the paradox clone? Yes, but as the game is right now, it's easy to know. Sometimes you lose. Occasionally, it isn't your fault. Either don't let sec (or other valid hunter) know there is a paradox clone around, or if they do find out, don't let them catch you. We don't need admins to railroad the game for what is a temporary issue that makes a minor side antagonist a little weaker.

The way the game is supposed to be and the way the game is, are practically indistinguishable. The only way to know that the paradox clone is not intended to have a tell with the bank number, is to ask the person who designed it if he intentionally made that a tell. We can't expect every player to know not just how the antag works, but how the coder who made the antag expects it to work. As is, the rules allow metaknowledge of antag mechanics. Intentional or not, the paradox clone not knowing the bank number of their target is currently a mechanic of the antag. Arbitrarily limiting this mechanical knowledge based on what was "intended" is just a trap that's not going to be clear to every player because no one has the same vision for what the game is supposed to be.

[Screemonster]

I'd say antag-tests also fall under "Non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause." - specifically the "search for" part. If someone hasn't already revealed themselves to be an antagonist, you shouldn't go out of your way to mechanically reveal them.

I have not once ever in my 2000+ hours playing LRP, ever seen this enforced. Validhunting always happens on LRP. Cult? Players searching maints for cultists. Some guy's a traitor and got called out? Several validhunters in maints. I had to check to make sure this wasn't from the RP rules even.

your replacement in the club recently suggested that upgrading cameras with x-ray would be banbaiting on the grounds that it would trick metagamers into lynching the AI because they can see maint on cameras

also searching maint for cultists before cult has been revealed or called out is bullshit cunt behaviour and you know it

[sinfulbliss]

also searching maint for cultists before cult has been revealed or called out is bullshit cunt behaviour and you know it

No one does this. Very obviously this rule isn't meant for things no one ever does. But if someone's called out for being a traitor or ling or something, they'll get validhunted most definitely. Or if they do objectives, or anything of the sort. I don't think that counts as Vekter's "threat," if they're not doing anything threatening. But I've never ever seen someone bwoinked for validhunting these types.

On Manuel it's disallowed of course, that's why you have lots of friendly tots not doing anything violent and only doing objectives. If crew isn't allowed to attack them cause "balid," and only if they do violent crimes, then might as well do a pacifist run to OOCly disallow anyone from stopping you.

So the upside of applying this rule stringently is you get fewer lame validhunters killing someone for syndie graffiti. The downside would be the issue Manuel has.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

The problem is that admins aren't there to enforce the rules strictly to the letter, they're there to create the best experience possible. That's the goal they should have.

And using an exploit to find an antag before it does anything...how does that help the game or the round, man? In what way does going "Alright, we have two people here, one of them must be a paradox clone. TELL ME YOUR BANK DETAILS" improve the game? You haven't interacted with the antag. You haven't done anything. All you've done is just remove it from the round. Did that antag improve the round at all? The answer to all of those questions is 'No, it didn't improve the round.'

So then, why should we allow it?

If security (or other valid hunter) has figured out there is a paradox clone running about and the exact person of which they are a clone, that means the cat is out of the bag. Is it supposed to be harder than it currently is to figure which of the two is the paradox clone? Yes, but as the game is right now, it's easy to know. Sometimes you lose. Occasionally, it isn't your fault. Either don't let sec (or other valid hunter) know there is a paradox clone around, or if they do find out, don't let them catch you. We don't need admins to railroad the game for what is a temporary issue that makes a minor side antagonist a little weaker.

The way the game is supposed to be and the way the game is, are practically indistinguishable. The only way to know that the paradox clone is not intended to have a tell with the bank number, is to ask the person who designed it if he intentionally made that a tell. We can't expect every player to know not just how the antag works, but how the coder who made the antag expects it to work. As is, the rules allow metaknowledge of antag mechanics. Intentional or not, the paradox clone not knowing the bank number of their target is currently a mechanic of the antag. Arbitrarily limiting this mechanical knowledge based on what was "intended" is just a trap that's not going to be clear to every player because no one has the same vision for what the game is supposed to be.

No, I think it's pretty fucking obvious to everyone except some badfaith twats who want to any% No Antags speedrun so that everyone gets bored and calls the shuttle to give him another chance at rolling antag, that the SPOOKY CLONE OF YOU FROM ANOTHER TIMELINE would probably know your fucking bank ID.

LRP isn't NRP, you should at least put a minor fucking effort in to roleplay. This attitude is why admins feel powerless to do anything, and it's why the coders can't give us anything with more depth than "Here's a different flavour of killing people".

We've seen people in this thread say that it should be fine to throw guns at a Scarp User to see if they have Scarp, because they're too busy mouthbreathing to realize that the 'IC Reason' why a Scarp User can't use guns is because they find it dishonourable, but it's not going to be dishonourable to fire a gun at a wall because someone told you to.

C'mon guys. Seriously. If you just dunk on antags like this, it's less fun for them because they don't get to do anything, and it's less fun for you because you don't get to interact with them. I'm not saying you have to let a DESworder go free, but at least put an effort in.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

If im not mistaken, all forms of hard code antag test are in-game exploits since we currently have a "no hard antag tests" policy for the codebase, right?

In-game exploits are already allowed only by admin discretion, and continuing to do them after being told to stop can lead to serious bans (See ATHATH and his permaban for repeatedly refusing to stop finding and using new OP exploits).

[TheLoLSwat]

just deny testing it is a bluff 95% of the time if they had the proof to kill you they wouldve done it already.

[Screemonster]

just deny testing it is a bluff 95% of the time if they had the proof to kill you they wouldve done it already.

refuse antag tests even if you're innocent
it's not "acting like an antag" to refuse a random search

[EmpressMaia]

Is asking a suspected heretic to Try and use a heretic blade captured earlier a antag test?

[PengisBungholius]

Is asking a suspected heretic to Try and use a heretic blade captured earlier a antag test?

Sounds really similar to asking a carp user to shoot a gun, but it'd be really funny to watch a heretic use the blade to teleport out of sec instead of attacking something

[oranges]

If im not mistaken, all forms of hard code antag test are in-game exploits since we currently have a "no hard antag tests" policy for the codebase, right?

In-game exploits are already allowed only by admin discretion, and continuing to do them after being told to stop can lead to serious bans (See ATHATH and his permaban for repeatedly refusing to stop finding and using new OP exploits).

Yes we try to avoid them wherever possible.

[Pandarsenic]

Given that info, I don't see any reason not to issue a blanket "All forms of antag testing are exploits by Word of Coder, never do them"

[sinfulbliss]

No, I think it's pretty fucking obvious to everyone except some badfaith twats who want to any% No Antags speedrun so that everyone gets bored and calls the shuttle to give him another chance at rolling antag, that the SPOOKY CLONE OF YOU FROM ANOTHER TIMELINE would probably know your fucking bank ID

I don’t think this is obvious at all to be honest. Paradox clones are identical physically but are poor copies and can be sniffed out with pretty basic questions (what’s your favorite color, what did you say to me earlier in the shift, etc.) so it’s not exactly clear bank ID wouldn’t fall under the same sort of questioning. Just another aspect paradox clones couldn’t copy. Although that oversight is fixed now AFAIK so it’s a moot point, hopefully you see the issue - it’s not clear really when you start delving into lame OOC “antag checks” versus just being clever and using mechanics/game knowledge to sus the person out.

The rest of what you said was more about how it’s lame to be a forensic mastermind and snuff out all the evil before it gets a chance to impact the round. That’s a totally different issue though.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

No, I think it's pretty fucking obvious to everyone except some badfaith twats who want to any% No Antags speedrun so that everyone gets bored and calls the shuttle to give him another chance at rolling antag, that the SPOOKY CLONE OF YOU FROM ANOTHER TIMELINE would probably know your fucking bank ID

I don’t think this is obvious at all to be honest. Paradox clones are identical physically but are poor copies and can be sniffed out with pretty basic questions (what’s your favorite color, what did you say to me earlier in the shift, etc.) so it’s not exactly clear bank ID wouldn’t fall under the same sort of questioning. Just another aspect paradox clones couldn’t copy. Although that oversight is fixed now AFAIK so it’s a moot point, hopefully you see the issue - it’s not clear really when you start delving into lame OOC “antag checks” versus just being clever and using mechanics/game knowledge to sus the person out.

The rest of what you said was more about how it’s lame to be a forensic mastermind and snuff out all the evil before it gets a chance to impact the round. That’s a totally different issue though.

Isn't the distinction obvious? Your first examples were based on things like knowing them as a person, or knowing what they did in the shift, while the bank ID was a coding oversight.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

No, I think it's pretty fucking obvious to everyone except some badfaith twats who want to any% No Antags speedrun so that everyone gets bored and calls the shuttle to give him another chance at rolling antag, that the SPOOKY CLONE OF YOU FROM ANOTHER TIMELINE would probably know your fucking bank ID

I don’t think this is obvious at all to be honest. Paradox clones are identical physically but are poor copies and can be sniffed out with pretty basic questions (what’s your favorite color, what did you say to me earlier in the shift, etc.) so it’s not exactly clear bank ID wouldn’t fall under the same sort of questioning. Just another aspect paradox clones couldn’t copy. Although that oversight is fixed now AFAIK so it’s a moot point, hopefully you see the issue - it’s not clear really when you start delving into lame OOC “antag checks” versus just being clever and using mechanics/game knowledge to sus the person out.

The rest of what you said was more about how it’s lame to be a forensic mastermind and snuff out all the evil before it gets a chance to impact the round. That’s a totally different issue though.

The Paradox Clone is the result of Bluespace Bullshittery pulling in a version of You from another timeline. This version hasn't had the chance to go get the wintercoat you usually wear. But it's still going to know basic shit like your bank information because It's You.

Things like "What did you say to me earlier in the shift" "What's your favourite colour" you know what those are?

Those are Roleplay. "What's your bank ID?" is not.

(Also only my final sentence was about "give them a chance to make the round interesting", as the rest prior to that was talking about Scarp Tests and the like)

[TheLoLSwat]

No, I think it's pretty fucking obvious to everyone except some badfaith twats who want to any% No Antags speedrun so that everyone gets bored and calls the shuttle to give him another chance at rolling antag, that the SPOOKY CLONE OF YOU FROM ANOTHER TIMELINE would probably know your fucking bank ID

I don’t think this is obvious at all to be honest. Paradox clones are identical physically but are poor copies and can be sniffed out with pretty basic questions (what’s your favorite color, what did you say to me earlier in the shift, etc.) so it’s not exactly clear bank ID wouldn’t fall under the same sort of questioning. Just another aspect paradox clones couldn’t copy. Although that oversight is fixed now AFAIK so it’s a moot point, hopefully you see the issue - it’s not clear really when you start delving into lame OOC “antag checks” versus just being clever and using mechanics/game knowledge to sus the person out.

sinful just imagine someone made a clone of you (right now) and then 48 hours passed

your clone would remember your passwords but they would be fucked if they had to recall anything significant [you] were involved in from the past 48 hours.

[sinfulbliss]

No, I think it's pretty fucking obvious to everyone except some badfaith twats who want to any% No Antags speedrun so that everyone gets bored and calls the shuttle to give him another chance at rolling antag, that the SPOOKY CLONE OF YOU FROM ANOTHER TIMELINE would probably know your fucking bank ID

I don’t think this is obvious at all to be honest. Paradox clones are identical physically but are poor copies and can be sniffed out with pretty basic questions (what’s your favorite color, what did you say to me earlier in the shift, etc.) so it’s not exactly clear bank ID wouldn’t fall under the same sort of questioning. Just another aspect paradox clones couldn’t copy. Although that oversight is fixed now AFAIK so it’s a moot point, hopefully you see the issue - it’s not clear really when you start delving into lame OOC “antag checks” versus just being clever and using mechanics/game knowledge to sus the person out.

sinful just imagine someone made a clone of you (right now) and then 48 hours passed

your clone would remember your passwords but they would be fucked if they had to recall anything significant [you] were involved in from the past 48 hours.

Yeah well maybe the company that made them is broke as hell and neglected to give them basic information like what my favorite food item is or what my bank ID is supposed to be, I don't know man you can justify it either way you want to.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

No, I think it's pretty fucking obvious to everyone except some badfaith twats who want to any% No Antags speedrun so that everyone gets bored and calls the shuttle to give him another chance at rolling antag, that the SPOOKY CLONE OF YOU FROM ANOTHER TIMELINE would probably know your fucking bank ID

I don’t think this is obvious at all to be honest. Paradox clones are identical physically but are poor copies and can be sniffed out with pretty basic questions (what’s your favorite color, what did you say to me earlier in the shift, etc.) so it’s not exactly clear bank ID wouldn’t fall under the same sort of questioning. Just another aspect paradox clones couldn’t copy. Although that oversight is fixed now AFAIK so it’s a moot point, hopefully you see the issue - it’s not clear really when you start delving into lame OOC “antag checks” versus just being clever and using mechanics/game knowledge to sus the person out.

sinful just imagine someone made a clone of you (right now) and then 48 hours passed

your clone would remember your passwords but they would be fucked if they had to recall anything significant [you] were involved in from the past 48 hours.

Yeah well maybe the company that made them is broke as hell and neglected to give them basic information like what my favorite food item is or what my bank ID is supposed to be, I don't know man you can justify it either way you want to.

They're not made by anyone, they're made by the timestream fucking up. That's why they're a Paradox Clone and not a Syndicate Clone.

[LeekiLoku]

I am super guilty of antag testing, i didnt know that it wasnt allowed until i read the MMI testing thread. From now on ill reframe from doing antag testing (mostly just proving im not a cultist by using dagger on people).