GOONCHEM FEEDBACK 2.0

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:53 am #83220

PSA: Don't move this thread. I put it here because I need the most feedback as possible. Do you want 10 people shaping the feedback for goonchem or do you want 300 people?

So now that it's been a few months and things have mostly quieted down, bugs have been fixed, and things are working pretty smoothly, what's your feedback on goonchem as it stands?

I made a new thread so we can have a clean slate.

Any outstanding bugs that need fixing?

Any tweaks you would like to suggest?

Any "revert gaychem and bring back tricord" requests?

Any general feedback?

I want to hear it all.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:57 am #83222

Medibots could use slightly better chems. Also, the Mysterious Medibot should have very powerful healing chems. Other than that, I still do not know what most chems do, lel.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:08 am #83223

We need a injectible chem that isn't completely hot garbage for mediborgs

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:08 am #83224

Sal-Glu could use a minor buff but otherwise I like it

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:12 am #83226

Incoming wrote:We need a injectible chem that isn't completely hot garbage for mediborgs

I thought you were working on that but uh, i'll add a mediborg/medibot specific heal shit chem.

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:20 am #83228

its ok

has depth that old chem didn't. And yeah, sal-glu is shit, it's more of a placebo than anything when I inject people with it.

Chemistry really needs a second or even individual chem fridges for each chemist though, because it's messy trying to deal with precursor bottles for the more advanced chems. But I also don't want the proposed map changes we had before because they looked silly.

edit- Fridges being constructable would also work too, with the fridge board being screwdriveable to switch between virus, food, chem fridges etc. Then chemists could choose where to put or if they needed extra fridges.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:11 am #83241

The non healing parts of goonchem are by and large great, and make chem more enjoyable.
Lots of interesting ways to do bad things - but the smoke nerf was like, pretty dumb. Foam is super OP, meanwhile if you let smoke off ontop of/inside something, ALL the reagen just instantly get drained out, so people standin even one tile away are completely unaffected.

Smoke was only an issue because a few chems took advanage for the spammable touch procs to be OP (like acid and mutagen) but every other chem was fine.

The healing side is pretty bad, and did nothing to improve the supposed issues of tgchem.

tgchem had:
Cyro for heavily injured/cloned people
Sleepers for casual injuries
tricord/bicard/derm for whatever
borg/bot for general purpose healing

goonchem has:
Cryo for heavily inured/cloned people
Synthflesh/styptic/silver patches for everything (and also have like, instant effect)
sleeper for fucking nothing
borg/bot for OD'ing people on omnizine fucking nothing

I mean really, people used to complain that you could just 'slap a bruisepack on it'.
Now it's just make MEGA bruisepacks, stuff them in PILLBOTTLES and apply for ebin instant heals, that arent limited by body part.
The only issue with tgchem healing was eating 1000u of shit and being obnoxious - which could have been resolved with OD effects or just reducing the internal capacity of mobs to something more reasonable.

Sleepers are essentially useless for healing, and basically shit until upgraded. Once upgraded, they're this swiss army knife of utility healing chems, and completely invalidate the chemists for everything but shitting out more patches.

A lot of chemicals, such as epinephrine (jesus fuck this one is awful), pentetic acid etc are needlessly complex.
It doesn't give chemistry any depth, or make it more interesting. It just means there are more steps to memorise, or to copy out of the wiki, and more beakers full of crap you need to juggle to make one damn thing.

Then there are chemicals like salicyclic acid, which basically have no reason to exist, other then sneakily poisoning people to death - intentionally or not.
Like for that example, presumably it's for use of crit/heavily hurt people. But atropine is actually useful for crit people, and in general use styptic patches are literally always more useful then salic.
The only concievable use for this, is for mediborgs/bots, since they can't apply patches.

Speaking of which, they're both awful because there is no useful injectable healing reagent.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:24 am #83246

There are some weird niche chems like Atropine, which would be cool if it was found in Medipens but is more or less useless because it's so rare that you'll find a situation wherein you should use it.

Smoke nerf is silly.

Mediborg is unplayable, Medibots need a buff as well. Also I still don't understand what the fuck Salycilic Acid is for but it's in burn kits and does like nothing for me.

Babin · Post by **Babin** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:18 am #83255

I wish that overdosing didn't give a big red alarm message containing the exact name of the chem and everything. Like you can take a patch and fill it with 50u omnizine and label it as being styptic powder, but when someone applies it they immediately know that it's omnizine and that it's also an overdose.

Salglu is in an odd position. On one hand is was too strong. On the other hand it's basically useless now. It has the odd distinction of being one of the few spammable chems (no overdose, no downsides, easy to make and swallow 1000u of it) with a healing effect. If its effect is strong, then swallowing twenty pills of it will be too good. For legit medicine, like using it to treat medbay patients, it's far too weak even as a supplement to other medicines. People used to add tricord to cryo mixes just to make it a tad faster, but salglu is so inept that it's not even worth doing that. The best use for salglu right now is "swallow 500u salglu and salbutamol to be able to slowly regenerate out of crit if someone doesn't finish killing you."

Salicyclic acid is literally useless. It doesn't work when you're too hurt. It's too weak when it does work. Even the overdose effect is weak and won't kill you, ever. All this for a recipe that's more complex to make than styptic.

Did Aranesp ever get nerfed? I stopped using it altogether. It's the most ridiculous single poison chemistry's ever been able to mix.

A lot of people underestimate the purgative chems. They're one of my favorite things because the variety of them is actually well rounded.
Charcoal: Easy to mix, slow heal, slow purge
Calomel: Easy to mix, no heal, super fast purge, heavily damages but will not kill you
Pentetic Acid: Hard to mix, heals tox and rad very well, fast purge, deals minor brute which will build up over time if you allow it to

Pentetic is powerful, but I basically never see anyone use it. It's AMAZING for geneticists, since it wipes out both of the things that kill their test monkeys and they just have to apply a styptic patch every few minutes.

I mentioned my personal stealth chem deathmix on coderbus, and even made a couple of other possible mixes which involve easier ingredients (but aren't as powerful). Mixes like these are fun to research and figure out.

I'm still not sure how best to use chems which react on heat. The ones which are useful in grenades open up a few neat mixes which weren't possible before (flash powder being one, the recipe was incompatible with some types of useful smoke but now you can just use the stabilized form). Early on I had issues with getting people's bodies to warm up sufficiently -- they'd get a bit warmer from pyrosium or whatever reacting with oxygen, but their natural body heat would stabilize too quickly for them to reach reactive temps. I pretty much gave up on trying and should probably test it more, but the initial playtest really turned me off of them except for when I could guarantee it (that is, like filling a monkey with 600u of powder and setting it on fire and it won't resist, or just setting people on fire to force them to either tank the damage or resist and suffer the consequences (or use an extinguisher like an intelligent person))

My biggest complaint about chemistry has nothing to do with goonchem per se. It's the fact that science can make all of chemistry's machinery five minutes into the round and literally do their job better than them because they have access to an autolathe (large beakers, igniters, timers, prox sensors, etc) and upgraded machines. If mining delivers, R&D can even make bluespace beakers for themselves and refuse to give them to chemists. The only reason I play chemist is for the front desk where I can actually serve people.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:18 am #83268

There are a lot of interestin poisons and what not - the problem is there are still apex chemicals that are pretty much objectively superior to most other shit.

Take grenades for example. Now that smoke is nerfed, your options are explosive or foam.
With foam nades, you can do all sorts of wacky things, but 9 times out of 10 incendiary acid foam simply does the job better.
Actually on that topic, because foam is so hilariously op (repeatedly fills you with all the reagents that were in the nade, you can make grenades that gib anyone that touches the foam, with blackpowder and pyrosium/other heating chem of choice.
The result? anyone in the foam can't get out because they slip, so they're stuck and get hundreds of units of blackpowder in them, heat up, then explode in minibomb level explosions 10 seconds later.

I (indirectly) killed a wizard once, whenI was testing this. It's pretty amusing.

Not-Dorsidarf · Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:20 am

Geneticists shouldn't need to get pentetic acid unless they're morons who empty all their rejuvenators into a monkey then irradiate it on max setting for ten minutes

Also I hate that he nerfed smoke and superbuffed foam. We all know exactly why he did it, too.

Babin · Post by **Babin** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:48 am #83291

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Geneticists shouldn't need to get pentetic acid unless they're morons who empty all their rejuvenators into a monkey then irradiate it on max setting for ten minutes

Also I hate that he nerfed smoke and superbuffed foam. We all know exactly why he did it, too.

Pentetic acid helps significantly with the problem where you find a power block and raise its values to F** and try to manifest it sixty plus times but it still isn't doing anything. Which is actually like 80% of my time spent when I do genetics, now that I think about it. Pentetic allows you to brute-force your way through the RNG by rerolling their DNA as fast as the window's refreshing will allow it will and still keep the monkey alive.

Botanists don't NEED chemistry either since left4zed can induce both stat mutations and species mutations, but chemistry makes botany much faster by giving hundreds of extra rolls of the dice. It's the same concept. The only thing that botany literally can't do without chemistry's help is grow kudzu (which requires mutagen to randomly manifest and will never appear otherwise).

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Also spiderlings I think

Fayrik · Post by **Fayrik** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:15 pm #83333

Babin's got a lot of really nice feedback there, and I agree on all of those points.
I especially agree that the Science/Chemistry interactions need a lot of work, since Scientist is already the single highest sought after job, adding more demand for them isn't really ideal.

I don't know the numbers for the current healing chems, but trekchem worked that Tricord was weaker than the chemicals for spesific damage types, so more of an incentive to make spesific brute OR burn patches (Rather than Synthflesh) would be a good thing, in my opinion.

The thing I really want to see most of all though, is more diverse and robust combat healing medicines and gear. Especially for nuke ops, even if it's TC purchase or something.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:05 pm #83370

The thing about patches is that chemists are incredibly unreliable and it's very rare to get someone to actually stay at the chem desk and pump out patches, so they're more of an occasional treat than something to be relied upon. Also, the chem dispensers that science can build are incredibly shit and only have a fraction of the energy the proper ones do, so it's not like they can replace chemistry as a whole

Babin · Post by **Babin** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:21 pm #83387

Chemistry has two. Science can build as many as needed. They can produce more than chemistry if they really want to.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:38 pm #83448

Babin wrote:Chemistry has two. Science can build as many as needed. They can produce more than chemistry if they really want to.

You'd need to build a lot of portable chem dispensers to equal the energy of the two chemistry ones

Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:06 pm

I'm glad we can all talk about this more diplomatically now that the issue at hand has cooled down.

Lumi and Babin are making some really strong points here, and if we stick with goonchem which it's looking like we will, their thoughts should probably be implemented.

In my own opinion, I think goonchem honestly has more flaws than trekchem, with the most glaring one being that healing people is just fucking annoying and unengaging while murdering people is too easy, even on accident.

I still don't see why we can't have some goonchems and some trekchems, specifically the healing ones. Mediborgs were perfect back in the days of Doctor's Delight, and making a cryogenics mixture was actually fun when you were trying to find the right balance of chems to maximize healing output (compared to now, where it's just "put more cryox in it").

Chemical mixing is a lot more complex now, which for some things like the very powerful healing chemicals or stupid-good poisons is a good thing, but for simpler chems is just unintuitive. This is particularly because of how often you have to juggle your beaker between your machines. Back with trekchem, you could whip up a good chemical or two, like tricord and antitoxin, in the same beaker without having to remove it once.
With goonchem, you have to make one mixture, take it out of the machine, put it into the heater, take it out of the heater, put it into the chemdispenser, add a few more chems, take it out of the chemdispenser, put it into the chemmaster, get the right amount of units to isolate into their own bottle so you have enough room in your beaker, take it out of the chemmaster, put it into the chem dispenser, then add a few more chemicals. Then take it out of the chemdispenser, put it into the chemmaster, and finally produce a single bottle of one chem. It's pretty much the worst and most tedious thing ever. Making it simpler to make chems in general, even if it's just by merging the chemdispenser and heater, would greatly help this issue.

I feel like we should reintroduce some of the old chems, specifically bicard, kelotane, antitoxin, and dexalin. Doctor's Delight for mediborgs would be a godsend, as well. You could try to balance it with the current chems by making it easy to overdose on them (except for DD), but keeping their very potent healing abilities in.

Drynwyn · Post by **Drynwyn** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 12:41 am #83487

lumipharon wrote: Actually on that topic, because foam is so hilariously op (repeatedly fills you with all the reagents that were in the nade, you can make grenades that gib anyone that touches the foam, with blackpowder and pyrosium/other heating chem of choice.
The result? anyone in the foam can't get out because they slip, so they're stuck and get hundreds of units of blackpowder in them, heat up, then explode in minibomb level explosions 10 seconds later.

I (indirectly) killed a wizard once, whenI was testing this. It's pretty amusing.

I tested this today on a monkey and it did not work.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:36 am #83496

No way in hell goonchem should be removed at this point. Ive seen too many amazing chemical combinations to go back to the old trekchem rubbish. I mean... foam what sets everyone on fire and melts their gear at the same time? Who wouldnt want that awesome stuff?!

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:25 am #83507

Drynwyn wrote:
lumipharon wrote: Actually on that topic, because foam is so hilariously op (repeatedly fills you with all the reagents that were in the nade, you can make grenades that gib anyone that touches the foam, with blackpowder and pyrosium/other heating chem of choice.
The result? anyone in the foam can't get out because they slip, so they're stuck and get hundreds of units of blackpowder in them, heat up, then explode in minibomb level explosions 10 seconds later.

I (indirectly) killed a wizard once, whenI was testing this. It's pretty amusing.
I tested this today on a monkey and it did not work.

It does work, but unless the fix has been merged, monkeys don't process chems for whatever reason.

Edit: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/9086 the fix got merged less then a day ago, so it's probably not live yet. It works fine on people though.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 1:59 pm #83562

Adrenaline implants for traitors and nuke ops are now completely useless. Last night I tried using it once, and wound up (confusingly) sprawled out unconscious on the floor for a couple minutes around half a minute after first dosing. The time I used up the remaining charges at the same time, wound up with me unconscious for even longer, something like for 5 minutes after a very short intermission.

Completely useless. Pls fix. Where on Sybil could you possibly be able to be unconscious for that long without being caught?

TechnoAlchemist · Thu Apr 23, 2015 2:53 pm

I'm in favor of goon Chem staying, but with trek chems added for medical use with a lowered reagent cap.

AdenAbrafo · Post by **AdenAbrafo** » Thu Apr 23, 2015 4:59 pm #83609

iamgoofball wrote:
Incoming wrote:We need a injectible chem that isn't completely hot garbage for mediborgs
I thought you were working on that but uh, i'll add a mediborg/medibot specific heal shit chem.

This isn't a really good solution. If the current chems can literally not heal someone by being administered by a mediborg then something is wrong, adding a chemical that only mediborgs and medibots has is just lazy.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:29 am #83753

AdenAbrafo wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:
Incoming wrote:We need a injectible chem that isn't completely hot garbage for mediborgs
I thought you were working on that but uh, i'll add a mediborg/medibot specific heal shit chem.
This isn't a really good solution. If the current chems can literally not heal someone by being administered by a mediborg then something is wrong, adding a chemical that only mediborgs and medibots has is just lazy.

Why do I need to change the balance of medical chems /again/ just for medibots/borgs when I can literally just restore the original functionality and give them their magic tricord replacement juice?

Medibots and borgs would literally be back to pre-accidental nerf. How is this lazy?

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:54 am #83757

iamgoofball wrote:snip

They mean it's lazy because the underlying issue is that there are no potent healing chems and it doesn't fix that issue. However, on the issue of mediborgs, giving them magic juice is still totally fine and not in any way lazy.

TheNightingale · Fri Apr 24, 2015 6:51 am

Mediborgs/bots shouldn't be able to OD people on omnizine... but they should be able to heal people at least moderately effectively.
How about a chemical around halfway in between omnizine and salglu in effectiveness, which can be made in Chemistry and which mediborgs/bots start with?

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:06 am #83772

doctors delight still exists, right

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:21 am #83774

Technically the drink is still in the code, but i'm not even sure it does anything anymore.

Erbbu · Post by **Erbbu** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 12:30 pm #83794

As far as I know the new Doc's D does not heal you anymore.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:58 pm #83818

Which is weird because all of its components heal

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:11 pm #83824

doctors delight is now a placebo, which is also why syndiecakes are now useless. But yeah all the components of DD heal one type of damage very slowly, so ironically giving someone "doctor's delight" but missing an ingredient (probably the one that heals oxy damge) will vaguely simulate DD, if on a slower scale.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:42 am #83903

PKPenguin321 wrote:
iamgoofball wrote:snip
They mean it's lazy because the underlying issue is that there are no potent healing chems and it doesn't fix that issue.

No, there are potent healing chems. I'll prove it below. You just need to apply them right. If the issue is medibots/mediborgs can't use them, then let me explain something.

Let's say you're a doctor. You're administering an antidote for a toxin. You have 100 patients. 90 of them(humans/crewmembers) respond well to the treatment. 10 of them(mediborgs/medibots) do not respond well. Which one of these would you do?
A) Adjust all 100 patients' treatments, including the ones who are already about to be fully recovered, to a new one just for the 10 that have troubles. This could potentially disrupt the 90 who are healing from being able to recover fully.
B) Put the 10 with problems on a new treatment and leave the other 90 alone.

Let's look at the healing effects of the new 4 base healing chems compared to the old 4 base healing chems.

Something to keep in mind:
All chems process at the original speed pre-goonchem now.
The New: Styptic Powder
On Touch:
Heals 1 Brute per unit. A patch can hold 50 units. A 50 unit styptic patch heals 50 brute damage. Keep in mind that patches transfer the chems into the person still, which is where the below comes into play.
On Ingest:
Deals 0.5 Toxin per unit. A pill can hold 50 units. A 50 unit styptic pill does 25 toxin damage.
On Life:
Heals 2 Brute damage every time it processes.
End result: 50u patch = 300 brute healed overall, 50 from the patch application, and 250 from the processed healing.
The Old: Bicaridine
On Touch:
Nothing.
On Ingest:
Nothing.
On Life:
Heals 2 Brute damage every time it processes.
End result: 50u pill = 250 brute healed overall, 250 from the processed healing.
Winner: Styptic Powder
The New: Silver Sulfadiazine
On Touch:
Heals 1 Burn per unit. A patch can hold 50 units. A 50 unit silv. sulf. patch heals 50 Burn damage. Keep in mind that patches transfer the chems into the person still, which is where the below comes into play.
On Ingest:
Deals 0.5 Toxin per unit. A pill can hold 50 units. A 50 unit silv. sulf. pill does 25 toxin damage.
On Life:
Heals 1 Burn damage every time it processes. This may be increased to 2 burn damage.
End result: 50u patch = 175 burn healed overall, 50 from the patch application, and 125 from the processed healing.
The Old: Kelotane
On Touch:
Nothing.
On Ingest:
Nothing.
On Life:
Heals 2 Burn damage every time it processes.
End result: 50u pill = 250 Burn healed overall, 250 from the processed healing.
Winner: Kelotane
Solution: Up the healing on Silver Sulf. to heal 2 burn a second. This will bring it up to 300 burn healed overall from the 175 healed overall, and make it more useful.
The New: Salbutamol
On Touch:
Nothing.
On Ingest:
Nothing.
On Life:
Heals 3 oxygen loss, and reduces your losebreath by 2 every time it processes.
End result: 50u pill = 600 oxygen loss healed overall, 600 from the processed healing. Salbutamol has a metabolization rate of 0.2, which means it depletes slower then Dexalin, which has a rate of 0.4.
The Old: Dexalin
On Touch:
Nothing.
On Ingest:
Nothing.
On Life:
Heals 2 oxygen damage every time it processes.
End result: 50u pill = 250 Oxygen Loss healed overall, 250 from the processed healing.
Winner: Salbutamol
The New: Charcoal
On Touch:
Nothing.
On Ingest:
Nothing.
On Life:
Heals 1.5 Toxin loss, and removes all other reagents inside you at a rate of 0.5 per second. This allows for faster purging of overdosed chemicals.
End result: 50u pill = 187.5 toxin loss healed overall, 187.5 from the processed healing.
The Old: Anti-Toxin (Dylovene)
On Touch:
Nothing.
On Ingest:
Nothing.
On Life:
Heals 2 toxin damage every time it processes, and removes toxin reagents inside you at a rate of 1 per second.
End result: 50u pill = 250 Toxin Loss healed overall, 250 from the processed healing.
Winner: Anti-Toxin (Dylovene)
Solution: Up the healing on Charcoal to heal 2 toxin a second, and increase the reagent purging effects to 1 per second. This will bring it up to 250 toxin healed overall from the 187.5 healed overall, and make it more useful.
The New: Epinephrine
Overdose threshold: 30
Recommended dosage amount: 25
Metabolism rate: 0.25(Slower then inaprov, therefore it lasts longer)
On Touch:
Nothing.
On Ingest:
Nothing.
On Life:
If you are between -10 and -65 health(light to severe crit), you heal 0.5 of brute, toxin, and burn loss every second. Caps your oxygen loss to 35. Reduces your losebreath by 2 until it hits below 4 losebreath. It reduces your stamina loss by 0.5 every second. 20% chance to reduce all your stuns by 1 second.
On Overdose:
33% chance to do 2.5 Stamina damage, 1 toxin damage, and increase losebreath by 1.
End result: Actually stabilizes you in crit. It won't pull you out of it, but it'll keep you from dying.
The Old: Inaprovaline
On Touch:
Nothing.
On Ingest:
Nothing.
On Life:
If you have above then 10 losebreath, it sets losebreath to a number determined by the amount of losebreath you have minus 5.
End result: Reduces losebreath.
Winner: Epinephrine

Therefore, these chemicals are just as potent, if not more potent, then their predecessors. With the exception of Silver Sulf. and Charcoal, which will be receiving the stated buffs soon.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 1:09 am #83906

Amelius wrote:Adrenaline implants for traitors and nuke ops are now completely useless.

This was a bug. Pretty sure someone fixed it already.

Gun Hog wrote:Medibots could use slightly better chems. Also, the Mysterious Medibot should have very powerful healing chems. Other than that, I still do not know what most chems do, lel.

Scones wrote:Mediborg is unplayable, Medibots need a buff as well.

Incoming wrote:We need a injectible chem that isn't completely hot garbage for mediborgs

Mediborgs and medibots will be recieving a new heal-all only obtainable or usable by the medibots and mediborgs. There will be no recipe for this. There will be no extraction method. If you players extract it somehow and start using it as the goto heal chem as humans, it goes bye-bye and is replaced with styptic/silver sulf patch dispensers, and injectors for charcoal and salbutamol.

lumipharon wrote: Lots of interesting ways to do bad things - but the smoke nerf was like, pretty dumb. Foam is super OP, meanwhile if you let smoke off ontop of/inside something, ALL the reagen just instantly get drained out, so people standin even one tile away are completely unaffected.

Smoke was only an issue because a few chems took advanage for the spammable touch procs to be OP (like acid and mutagen) but every other chem was fine.

Scones wrote:Smoke nerf is silly.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Also I hate that he nerfed smoke and superbuffed foam. We all know exactly why he did it, too.

Smoke will be changing soon. The details will be in the PR for it. I can assure you that smoke will be just as, if not more, useful as it was before.

Cheridan actually buffed foam, and it really did need a buff. It was quite literally useless before hand. He did reagent foam.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:25 am #83960

The only thing I don't like is that you've managed to make poly acid even more op, which is quite an achievement

When combined with foam you have something that:
- You can't escape because foam is slippery even whilst walking
- Instantly kills you
- Deletes all your items so even if you do get cloned you're fucked for the rest of the round

It might as well gib you with how powerful it currently is.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Goofball, salbutamol doesn't win out, because Dexalin Plus (the actual comparative chem here, since we're going for "best" apparently) heals all oxygen and losebreath instantly.

Oh, and inaprovaline has the exact same practical effect as epinephrine, because unless you took a really weak poison then refused medical aid, the only thing you're going to be taking damage from in crit is the oxygen damage. And works at less than -65 health, too, unlike epinephrine.

That means that only styptic is better, which puts you at 1/5 (not 3/4)

Oh, and styptic and silver sulfadazine had to have an entire new method of applying chems added for them to make them relevant (patches)

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:10 pm #83981

It's worth remembering that Styptic and Silver Sulf are vastly less accessible than Bicaridine and Kelotane were. You have to rely on a chemist and your small supply in storage for the patches, whereas Bicar and Kelo were in the sleepers. That actually meant the sleepers were an important part of being a good doctor: you'd want to cryo someone, then move them to the sleepers as soon as possible because it was much faster.

This isn't really the case any more. Sleepers have this weird thing currently, where they're useless initially (Saline Glucose? Just no.) and so you're better off just throwing someone in cryo. Especially since cryo tubes changed to allow people to see and hear from within the tube, and can be operated by the patient. Then, when the sleepers get upgraded, they suddenly have ALL THE NICHE MEDICINES and the chemists are almost useless (for doctors), except (again) for their ability to give out patches and extra cryo fluid.

It's a very odd system, and it's confusing for people. That's why people don't think the new chems are powerful, because the patches are used much less often, literally because you have to have a chemist to give them out.

If we want sleepers to have a different role, which I think is definitely a possibility, we need to have a discussion about that. Paprika tried to start one at the time of goonchem's release, but it got rather lost in the sea of complaints generally. The idea that they were faster than cryo if used competently was a good one, but there are other options too. The current way they work is rubbish.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:58 pm #83988

Bit of a minor nitpick, but the screaming caused by styptic powder and silver sulfadiazine can get extremely spammy when used with foam.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:03 pm #83990

There are plenty of patches in the medivendors. You also have medkits in storage that last you a fair while. Old sleepers were completely overpowered bullshit. Lets not go back to that please.

Id like to see something done to stop Chemists stacking their desks with endless amounts of 10u patches, but it doesnt look like thats possible.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:00 pm #83996

Sleepers should exist to keep critical patients stable, and thats it.

Its the doctors job to treat people.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:06 pm #84038

Cryo is better at keeping people stable, I see sleepers as being better at healing scratch damage that doesn't warrant a patch or is too spread out over multiple limbs to be healed with a bandaid or ointment

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:12 pm #84039

The best suggestion i saw to balance them was to make them only work if you stay inside. Say...have it constantly inject 1-2 units of a chemical, so you cant just load someone up with 50+ units and send them on their way.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:20 pm #84040

But then isn't that just the same as cryo?

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:25 pm #84043

Well Cryo is some stupid self-serve healing station now, so i guess it is pointless to buff sleepers.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:37 pm #84047

Malkevin wrote:The only thing I don't like is that you've managed to make poly acid even more op, which is quite an achievement

When combined with foam you have something that:
- You can't escape because foam is slippery even whilst walking
- Instantly kills you
- Deletes all your items so even if you do get cloned you're fucked for the rest of the round

It might as well gib you with how powerful it currently is.

Yes, I dislike polyacid. Acid code is bad, really really bad, and I wish it wasn't as powerful as it is. I'll be talking with some folks about nerfing it.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Goofball, salbutamol doesn't win out, because Dexalin Plus (the actual comparative chem here, since we're going for "best" apparently) heals all oxygen and losebreath instantly.

I was comparing the 4 base chems healing chems of both systems, hence why I used kelotane instead of dermaline.

Honestly, I don't see why the literal fuck a chemical that with 0.4 units of it(the default metabolization rate), could literally heal all oxygen damage and losebreath instantly.

Why the fuck was this even a thing? Jesus christ. Like, when I was removing it, there were checks all over the fucking place to see if the guy had dex+ in them.

Under that sort of logic, why don't we just make all the other healing chems instantly remove all damage?

And before you say "but muh synthflesh/styptic/silv. sulf.", all 3 of those can't heal ALL your brute/burn/both damage with 0.4 units being applied. It would only heal 0.4 damage of the specific type. Unlike Dex+ here, which 0.4 units is just enough to remove all oxygen damage you took ever. I don't know why people didn't sit around with 500 units of this shit in them, holy hell this was overpowered as fuck. I could spacewalk if I had a coffee and a firesuit. I could sit in crit for 30 minutes and not die.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Oh, and inaprovaline has the exact same practical effect as epinephrine, because unless you took a really weak poison then refused medical aid, the only thing you're going to be taking damage from in crit is the oxygen damage. And works at less than -65 health, too, unlike epinephrine.

Not really, all it did was reduce your losebreath. In order to stop taking oxygen damage, losebreath needs to be equal to 0. Since inaprov never reduced it to 0, only a little bit above, someone with inaprov could still die of oxygen loss. Epi also doesn't completely remove losebreath, but it outright caps out the oxygen loss and therefore keeps you stabilized until you can be healed by a professional.

The only part of Epinephrine that doesn't work past -65 health is the 0.5 healing of toxin loss, brute loss, and burn loss. The rest is always working.

Alex Crimson wrote:Well Cryo is some stupid self-serve healing station now, so i guess it is pointless to buff sleepers.

Shaps wrote:But then isn't that just the same as cryo?

Shaps wrote:Cryo is better at keeping people stable

Cheimon wrote:It's worth remembering that Styptic and Silver Sulf are vastly less accessible than Bicaridine and Kelotane were. You have to rely on a chemist and your small supply in storage for the patches, whereas Bicar and Kelo were in the sleepers. That actually meant the sleepers were an important part of being a good doctor: you'd want to cryo someone, then move them to the sleepers as soon as possible because it was much faster.

So, regarding cryo:

I don't know who made cryo usable by the patient. I'm not too okay with that. I only buffed the chem inside of it, but when I did that, the self-serve cryotube bullshit wasn't a thing. Sure, you could climb in, and it'd spit you back out if you were at full health, but you couldn't turn it on from the inside, so you'd need a doctor or a buddy there to flip the switch. I'll be looking into a cryotube nerf.

So, regarding sleepers:

I'll be giving them some healing chems equivalent to what they used to have, but only as sleeper accessible chems. This should fix the problem of sleepers being useless when combined with a cryotube nerf. If they start showing up in patches and shit after people pulled the secret monkey technique over and over to harvest it and use it as the only healing chems in protest or some shit, I'll be nerfing them as a result. Basically, same rules as the Mediborg's healall mix injector when it gets fixed.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:55 pm #84050

Kinda defeats the point of being a medical doctor if you can just throw people in a sleeper and heal them so easily. It was boring in trekchem, its gonna be boring in goonchem.

Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:38 pm

iamgoofball wrote:Sure, you could climb in, and it'd spit you back out if you were at full health, but you couldn't turn it on from the inside, so you'd need a doctor or a buddy there to flip the switch. I'll be looking into a cryotube nerf.

Actually, I'm fairly certain the method is to set it to Open, step onto it's tile, flip it to On, then very quickly set it to Closed. I don't think (not sure though) you can turn it on from inside. Kind of seems like a bug in itself.

iamgoofball wrote:If they start showing up in patches and shit after people pulled the secret monkey technique over and over to harvest it and use it as the only healing chems in protest or some shit, I'll be nerfing them as a result. Basically, same rules as the Mediborg's healall mix injector when it gets fixed.

We both know it will happen at least once, goof. When it actually does start happening, that means we should look at how exploitable the mech syringe gun is and fix it, not remove the victim of the exploit. inb4 "no dont nerf muh syring guns they r balanced"

Alex Crimson wrote:Kinda defeats the point of being a medical doctor if you can just throw people in a sleeper and heal them so easily. It was boring...

Back when sleepers were being debated on getting removed, this point was brought up several times and every time was shut down as an opinion. It is still an opinion. I would like functioning sleepers back, please.

Incomptinence · Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:08 am

Would prefer for more of the power in chemicals to be relegated to botony, cooking and maybe xenobiology. My main issue with chem wasn't them healing people it was making entire departments pointless with their wide scope of fucking shit up, thermite and spiting limitless meat. The breadth of shit ruining has mostly expanded while healing is still powerful but more convoluted and still not really in the hands of medical doctors like people wanted.

Edit: Looks like synthflesh + blood equals meat is gone well good job on that.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:39 am #84091

Honestly, the concept I like most is that cryo is best for crit, stabilisation, needs someone else to operate it and all that, and that sleepers can be self serve, but you have to stay in them for any benefit and it administers a mild anaesthetic.

But honestly, that's just one idea among many and if a cryo nerf/sleeper buff can work in other ways then I'm all for it.

Tokiko2 · Post by **Tokiko2** » Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:29 am #84126

I have 2 complaints about newchem.

One is the lack of a replacement for sleep toxin: a safe chem to put someone to sleep, especially for extended amounts of times. Morphine easily overdoses, Chloral is fast and causes drowsiness but gets lethal pretty fast and Neurotoxin leaves them with severe braindamage and toxin damage. Then there's the option to overdose them on 200+u of sugar which is incredibly impractical and lasts way too long(30+ minutes).

The other is the fact that many interesting poisons are traitor uplink only. Why not give some of them to the botanist plants like poison berries, deathberries or destroying angels? Or maybe through chem-botany interaction?

Aside from that, I'm very happy with newchem. The new pyrotechnics are amazing, as is the ability to finally create reagent foam.