A Space Law Complain

[yalanamalanas]

I have made some observations, as non security, and security. And have some complains to make, they are just questions and (some) in Consecutive my mind when I question about space law.

First of all, for Mischief-type crimes, only 1 point of labor camp and 3 minutes of imprisonment have been suggested, while in the second stage, for Misdemeanors, the labor camp duration has been increased to a minimum of 300. There is an obvious mistake here; it could be 100 instead of 1 point, because killing an animal and inciting two people to fight are not that major of crimes. It's not fair for one to be 1 point and the other to be 300 points.

Second complaint: The lack of dimensionality in the Dereliction of Duty crime. The negligence of a chef and the negligence of a HoS are things that should be judged completely differently. The same applies to jobs that have critical roles for the station, which means it should be detailed further or have a Major version.

Third complaint: The lack of dimensionality in the "Kidnapping" crime. It states that someone who kidnaps a random assistant will be treated the same as someone who kidnaps the captain. This also needs to be detailed further or have a Major version.

Fourth complaint: The existence of the "Contraband" crime. In my observations, I haven't come across a round where security forces properly enforce this law. Anyone caught with Syndicate , a Syndicate agent, and as stated in the crime description, I suggest judging them under the "Enemy of Nanotrasen" crime. This proves that this crime is quite unnecessary, as nobody enforces the penalties required by this crime anyway. you may argue, someone who looted an agent, is need this crime to describe, well then. That fit's to Modifiers & Special Situations as detailed later.

Fifth complaint: The necessity of the "Spreading Disinformation" crime covering actions such as unnecessarily calling the shuttle on the bridge, making absurd/propaganda announcements, and unjust accusations/slander. This is necessary to cover the actions that are left out, as well as to add multiple values and richness to this crime.

Sixth complaint: The expansion of "Modifiers & Special Situations". Some things that need to be added include crimes committed in emergency scenarios (e.g., breaking a door to save someone's life), initiative, and justified cause.

Seventh complaint: The absence of "crime stacking." In my opinion, crimes that occur within the same chain of events should be processed simultaneously. The reason is to make it like a real law. If "crime stacking" is allowed, it can be argued that the accumulation of crimes in the Misdemeanors and Felonies categories could lead to a process resulting in the person's execution, which is unfair. This is partially true, but if I were to combine it with my eighth complaint, the "repeated crimes could be evaluated one level higher as a category" quote. There are dozens of systems that could be implemented for fairful crime stacking prosedures. Anyone who does a little research can find out what the other methods are. My complaint is that the absence of "crime stacking" is a shallow aspect of the game. I don't think it's lawful to ignore different crimes committed consecutively, except for the largest one. My suggestion is that the concept of "stacking" be changed, as the most compatible version of the penalty enforcement rule would work perfectly in this scenario.

Space Law may be just an IC suggestion, but in my opinion, there are certain elements that need to be changed for the depth of the game. Also, if you are a player like me, trying to prove that the action you took was in line with space law (likely due to an ambiguous situation) after being visited by an admin after every arrest you make can help clarify these ambiguous situations, at least to some extent.

[Imitates-The-Lizards]

Completely disagree with complaint number three. Kidnapping is kidnapping. If there are other circumstances, like you think the Captain was kidnapped in an attempt to overthrow Command, you can just charge them with Mutiny instead, which is a higher felony anyway, but the mere fact of being higher ranked is irrelevant.

Regarding complaint four, I have in fact, as a Lawyer, used the difference between "Contraband" and "EOTC" in trial. It matters if you bother trialing someone because the burden of proof is on Security to prove where the defendant got an item. If, for example, they don't have an unlocked uplink, you can make the argument that they received the contraband item by buying it, space ruins, looting an EOTC, etc. Because there are so many possibilities for receiving illegal items, it is a necessary charge, because it provides argumentation wiggle room for defense attorneys.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Completely disagree with complaint number three. Kidnapping is kidnapping. If there are other circumstances, like you think the Captain was kidnapped in an attempt to overthrow Command, you can just charge them with Mutiny instead, which is a higher felony anyway, but the mere fact of being higher ranked is irrelevant.

Nanotrasen surely makes no promises of equality. This is cooperate space not a government body.

[yalanamalanas]

Completely disagree with complaint number three. Kidnapping is kidnapping. If there are other circumstances, like you think the Captain was kidnapped in an attempt to overthrow Command, you can just charge them with Mutiny instead, which is a higher felony anyway, but the mere fact of being higher ranked is irrelevant.

Regarding complaint four, I have in fact, as a Lawyer, used the difference between "Contraband" and "EOTC" in trial. It matters if you bother trialing someone because the burden of proof is on Security to prove where the defendant got an item. If, for example, they don't have an unlocked uplink, you can make the argument that they received the contraband item by buying it, space ruins, looting an EOTC, etc. Because there are so many possibilities for receiving illegal items, it is a necessary charge, because it provides argumentation wiggle room for defense attorneys.

first,Kidnapping is a felony, just like contraband, you see the absurt thing here, cuffing a random assistant and having a double esword equals same level of crime, so either putting kidnap into more lover code, or add a major kidnap for more important rank is suggested, because it's not balanced.

secondly, Like I said, regular laws stands for intent to crime, if there is no intent to crime, you can just put it into Modifiers & Special Situations. And/if lack of proof for being a syndicate agent, it shows up quickly because that person would likely already commit more crimes with those contraband items (even though their uplink is inaccessible) to prove of being an enemy of Nanotrasen before even a trial can set up, let's say that happened, it is still unnecesarry because there is no intent for crime.

[Lacran]

Second complaint: The lack of dimensionality in the Dereliction of Duty crime. The negligence of a chef and the negligence of a HoS are things that should be judged completely differently. The same applies to jobs that have critical roles for the station, which means it should be detailed further or have a Major version.

Dereliction of duty, primarily involves demotion, so a HoS being demoted, is far more serious than demoting a chef anyway.

Third complaint: The lack of dimensionality in the "Kidnapping" crime. It states that someone who kidnaps a random assistant will be treated the same as someone who kidnaps the captain. This also needs to be detailed further or have a Major version.

This isn't necessary, firstly its not required to have a totally different crime for EVERY exacerbating factor. Secondly, the Captain has alot of gear under grandtheft which is likely going to factor into any kidnapping.

Fourth complaint: The existence of the "Contraband" crime. In my observations, you may argue, someone who looted an agent, is need this crime to describe, well then. That fit's to Modifiers & Special Situations as detailed later.

So your solution, is to remove a crime that has a clear purpose, and move it to modifiers... Why is this better and more clear than simply keeping the offense? It exists so security can police the equipment you have, regardless of how you use it or how you got it.

Fifth complaint: The necessity of the "Spreading Disinformation" crime covering actions such as unnecessarily calling the shuttle on the bridge, making absurd/propaganda announcements, and unjust accusations/slander. This is necessary to cover the actions that are left out, as well as to add multiple values and richness to this crime.

This all clearly falls under dis-information anyway? You don't need to give examples of lies, it should be blatantly obvious when someone is spreading lies.

Sixth complaint: The expansion of "Modifiers & Special Situations". Some things that need to be added include crimes committed in emergency scenarios (e.g., breaking a door to save someone's life), initiative, and justified cause.

"Self Defense is defined as "The protection of oneself, the protection of thy colleagues, and the protection of thine workplace". So this is already covered. idk wtf you mean by initiative or justified cause.

Seventh complaint: The absence of "crime stacking." In my opinion, crimes that occur within the same chain of events should be processed simultaneously. The reason is to make it like a real law. If "crime stacking" is allowed, it can be argued that the accumulation of crimes in the Misdemeanors and Felonies categories could lead to a process resulting in the person's execution, which is unfair. This is partially true, but if I were to combine it with my eighth complaint, the "repeated crimes could be evaluated one level higher as a category" quote. There are dozens of systems that could be implemented for fairful crime stacking prosedures. Anyone who does a little research can find out what the other methods are. My complaint is that the absence of "crime stacking" is a shallow aspect of the game. I don't think it's lawful to ignore different crimes committed consecutively, except for the largest one. My suggestion is that the concept of "stacking" be changed, as the most compatible version of the penalty enforcement rule would work perfectly in this scenario.

Space Law may be just an IC suggestion, but in my opinion, there are certain elements that need to be changed for the depth of the game. Also, if you are a player like me, trying to prove that the action you took was in line with space law (likely due to an ambiguous situation) after being visited by an admin after every arrest you make can help clarify these ambiguous situations, at least to some extent.

Did you use an A.I to write this? wtf am I even reading.

[yalanamalanas]

Second complaint: The lack of dimensionality in the Dereliction of Duty crime. The negligence of a chef and the negligence of a HoS are things that should be judged completely differently. The same applies to jobs that have critical roles for the station, which means it should be detailed further or have a Major version.

Dereliction of duty, primarily involves demotion, so a HoS being demoted, is far more serious than demoting a chef anyway.

Third complaint: The lack of dimensionality in the "Kidnapping" crime. It states that someone who kidnaps a random assistant will be treated the same as someone who kidnaps the captain. This also needs to be detailed further or have a Major version.

This isn't necessary, firstly its not required to have a totally different crime for EVERY exacerbating factor. Secondly, the Captain has alot of gear under grandtheft which is likely going to factor into any kidnapping.

Fourth complaint: The existence of the "Contraband" crime. In my observations, you may argue, someone who looted an agent, is need this crime to describe, well then. That fit's to Modifiers & Special Situations as detailed later.

So your solution, is to remove a crime that has a clear purpose, and move it to modifiers... Why is this better and more clear than simply keeping the offense? It exists so security can police the equipment you have, regardless of how you use it or how you got it.

Fifth complaint: The necessity of the "Spreading Disinformation" crime covering actions such as unnecessarily calling the shuttle on the bridge, making absurd/propaganda announcements, and unjust accusations/slander. This is necessary to cover the actions that are left out, as well as to add multiple values and richness to this crime.

This all clearly falls under dis-information anyway? You don't need to give examples of lies, it should be blatantly obvious when someone is spreading lies.

Sixth complaint: The expansion of "Modifiers & Special Situations". Some things that need to be added include crimes committed in emergency scenarios (e.g., breaking a door to save someone's life), initiative, and justified cause.

"Self Defense is defined as "The protection of oneself, the protection of thy colleagues, and the protection of thine workplace". So this is already covered. idk wtf you mean by initiative or justified cause.

Seventh complaint: The absence of "crime stacking." In my opinion, crimes that occur within the same chain of events should be processed simultaneously. The reason is to make it like a real law. If "crime stacking" is allowed, it can be argued that the accumulation of crimes in the Misdemeanors and Felonies categories could lead to a process resulting in the person's execution, which is unfair. This is partially true, but if I were to combine it with my eighth complaint, the "repeated crimes could be evaluated one level higher as a category" quote. There are dozens of systems that could be implemented for fairful crime stacking prosedures. Anyone who does a little research can find out what the other methods are. My complaint is that the absence of "crime stacking" is a shallow aspect of the game. I don't think it's lawful to ignore different crimes committed consecutively, except for the largest one. My suggestion is that the concept of "stacking" be changed, as the most compatible version of the penalty enforcement rule would work perfectly in this scenario.

Space Law may be just an IC suggestion, but in my opinion, there are certain elements that need to be changed for the depth of the game. Also, if you are a player like me, trying to prove that the action you took was in line with space law (likely due to an ambiguous situation) after being visited by an admin after every arrest you make can help clarify these ambiguous situations, at least to some extent.

Did you use an A.I to write this? wtf am I even reading.

You can't even understand what youre reading maybe you shouldn't try to respond without knowing. Also space law doesn't support any of your arguments. I don't know what kind of scenarios you make in your head but, contraband law never getting executed dude, not a single hour of my 1000+ Sec experience included throwing someone jail for having a desword. It's unneccesarry. Get over with that. Modifiers & Special Situations are here for exactly that, you don't have any creativity to put it, instead of useless contraband, you can add something about looting or any other thing that solves ambigious situations. Sec don't "police" your tools nicely, living into a polianna I think.

A command neglecting is should not be Misdemeanor all I said, because they have more important responsibilities and critique roles. And you seem to not oppose this.

A lie is different from a misinformation, I hope you know that. I spoke/argued with more than one admins, about it, it doesn't define those things as spreading misinformation, youre just making it up.

İt's not exacerbating for kidnap, it is same for everyone, that's the problem, there is no such thing called exacerbating, again cuffing some random assistant and having a double esword is fallen under same crime category, and this is not balanced, you are trying to cover this, but c'mon.

All you do is making up scenarios from your head, looking at the context. I'm not talking about how the context will decide it, I'm telling you that there is unbalanced crimes, yet, you can't properly refuse but to cover it up with something else.

[Lacran]

You can't even understand what youre reading maybe you shouldn't try to respond without knowing. Sec don't "police" your tools nicely, living into a polianna I think.

The parts I can understand I will respond to, but I think its also important to recognise that you aren't communicating in English very effectively and it undermines you.

contraband law never getting executed dude, not a single hour of my 1000+ Sec experience included throwing someone jail for having a desword. It's unneccesarry. Get over with that. Modifiers & Special Situations are here for exactly that, you don't have any creativity to put it, instead of useless contraband, you can add something about looting or any other thing that solves ambigious situations.

These situations are not ambiguous, I'm not sure how its ambiguous if you have over 1000 hours in sec. contraband doesn't need to carry a prison sentence, but it CAN if the officer wants to. Contraband exists as justification to confiscate gear without it being evidence for a different crime.

Edit: You have less than 500 hours total here, let alone on sec.

A command neglecting is should not be Misdemeanor all I said, because they have more important responsibilities and critique roles. And you seem to not oppose this.

If you read what I said, I said your suggestion is pointless, because demoting a head is already alot more serious than demoting a chef, and prison time doesn't need to reflect that, because people don't usually get prison time for dereliction anyway.

A lie is different from a misinformation, I hope you know that. I spoke/argued with more than one admins, about it, it doesn't define those things as spreading misinformation, youre just making it up.

I don't know which admin told you that, but "To maliciously spread disinformation among the crew." requires you to be lying. If its the truth, its not misinformation, and if its not malicious, its not a lie, that's just being ignorant. Misinformation vs Disinformation are different. I'm not saying all lies fall under this, but in order for information to fall under this it needs to firstly be a lie.

İt's not exacerbating for kidnap, it is same for everyone, that's the problem, there is no such thing called exacerbating, again cuffing some random assistant and having a double esword is fallen under same crime category, and this is not balanced, you are trying to cover this, but c'mon.

That's not what I said. I said kidnapping more important people usually involve more crimes, because those more important people tend to carry items you will get perma'd for anyway.

All you do is making up scenarios from your head, looking at the context. I'm not talking about how the context will decide it, I'm telling you that there is unbalanced crimes, yet, you can't properly refuse but to cover it up with something else.

I don't want to resort to adhom here, but clearly I don't understand you well, and you don't understand me well. Could a reason that you want space law to be more specific and expansive is because of this language barrier? You want offences to be more tiered, but the examples you use don't really treat prison time as important anyway so tiering is kinda pointless. You want a more expansive list of mitigating factors and exacerbating factors, but these are either common sense, not explained by you, or already in space law, you just didn't read it correctly.

[yalanamalanas]

You can't even understand what youre reading maybe you shouldn't try to respond without knowing. Sec don't "police" your tools nicely, living into a polianna I think.

The parts I can understand I will respond to, but I think its also important to recognise that you aren't communicating in English very effectively and it undermines you.

contraband law never getting executed dude, not a single hour of my 1000+ Sec experience included throwing someone jail for having a desword. It's unneccesarry. Get over with that. Modifiers & Special Situations are here for exactly that, you don't have any creativity to put it, instead of useless contraband, you can add something about looting or any other thing that solves ambigious situations.

These situations are not ambiguous, I'm not sure how its ambiguous if you have over 1000 hours in sec. contraband doesn't need to carry a prison sentence, but it CAN if the officer wants to. Contraband exists as justification to confiscate gear without it being evidence for a different crime.

Edit: You have less than 500 hours total here, let alone on sec.

A command neglecting is should not be Misdemeanor all I said, because they have more important responsibilities and critique roles. And you seem to not oppose this.

If you read what I said, I said your suggestion is pointless, because demoting a head is already alot more serious than demoting a chef, and prison time doesn't need to reflect that, because people don't usually get prison time for dereliction anyway.

A lie is different from a misinformation, I hope you know that. I spoke/argued with more than one admins, about it, it doesn't define those things as spreading misinformation, youre just making it up.

I don't know which admin told you that, but "To maliciously spread disinformation among the crew." requires you to be lying. If its the truth, its not misinformation, and if its not malicious, its not a lie, that's just being ignorant. Misinformation vs Disinformation are different. I'm not saying all lies fall under this, but in order for information to fall under this it needs to firstly be a lie.

İt's not exacerbating for kidnap, it is same for everyone, that's the problem, there is no such thing called exacerbating, again cuffing some random assistant and having a double esword is fallen under same crime category, and this is not balanced, you are trying to cover this, but c'mon.

That's not what I said. I said kidnapping more important people usually involve more crimes, because those more important people tend to carry items you will get perma'd for anyway.

All you do is making up scenarios from your head, looking at the context. I'm not talking about how the context will decide it, I'm telling you that there is unbalanced crimes, yet, you can't properly refuse but to cover it up with something else.

I don't want to resort to adhom here, but clearly I don't understand you well, and you don't understand me well. Could a reason that you want space law to be more specific and expansive is because of this language barrier? You want offences to be more tiered, but the examples you use don't really treat prison time as important anyway so tiering is kinda pointless. You want a more expansive list of mitigating factors and exacerbating factors, but these are either common sense, not explained by you, or already in space law, you just didn't read it correctly.

Like I said, if you don't understand, just don't respond. knowing that I don't have much hours on tg, but in other servers, and accounts ect. I have over 1000 hours.

You don't need a "crime" to "confiscate". again, you seem to not understand, confiscating a space loot can be fallen under a different protocol instead of a felony, youre saying that this crime exist for sec to take away contraband items, thats not true at all.

"or any other thing that solves ambigious situations" and your respond is "These situations are not ambiguous", I suggest learning some English brother.

Like you said kidnaping is "usually" with engaging other crimes, what I say, on the law, without any other crime involved (already a felony by the way, only thing that makes it legit is to try to kill that person you kidnapped) , on the paper, on the terminology, it is not balanced. Like how contraband crime "usually" ends with Enemy of Nanotrasen or something else, it is useless. Youre telling me kidnapping ends with someting worse and that's fine at all but contraband crime (is also ends with something worse) is neccessary, this is already Contradiction. all it needs to balance those crimes, is a few add to Modifiers & Special Situations to suggest about things space law doesn't clear, again, you seem to ignore the fact that kidnapping an assistant, or cutting a wire in maints and having syndicate weapons are same type of crimes in law, and how unbalanced is this.

[Lacran]

I don't wanna hijack your thread with our negative back and forth. I've read what you've said and taken it onboard. I'm gonna let other people give their takes and I might reply later.

[Vekter]

I'm not actually going to engage with this on any specific level because Space Law is not policy, there's zero reason for this thread to exist.

[Itseasytosee2me]

I'm not actually going to engage with this on any specific level because Space Law is not policy, there's zero reason for this thread to exist.

Changes to the space law wiki page need administrator access. If this sir or madam wishes to make an amendment to it, this is one of the only reasonable places to express concern. The other option would be getting in direct contact with an administrator with interest in the wiki, like melbert or smithers, which would probably result in a thread somewhere anyways before any changes were made.

[Lacran]

I'm not actually going to engage with this on any specific level because Space Law is not policy, there's zero reason for this thread to exist.

Space law in it's current form works to help inform how policy is interpreted, like a code of conduct, it's not mandatory to follow, but following it tends to establish you are within the rules.

So while this is obviously a wiki matter, the wiki matter should factor in policy.

[Deathrobotpunch1]

I'm not actually going to engage with this on any specific level because Space Law is not policy, there's zero reason for this thread to exist.

Biblemelts updated policy last headmin term where space law grants meta protections to any sec off who enforces it with good intention

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Hard disagree on combining "Contraband" and "EOTC". EOTC is for when you catch a traitor. Contraband is for people who took syndie loot as a bribe / stole it off the ground during a gunfight and wont give it back / whatever and only exists to discourage the crew from hanging onto traitor items they acquired through random means (Or openly displaying them at least).

[Longestarmlonglaw]

Nanotrasen surely makes no promises of equality. This is cooperate space not a government body.

There's "regular assault, and assaulting a member of command/security.

[confused rock]

Gulag is 1 point for a reason, it’s not just arbitrary. If you’re giving someone 100 points in labor camp for petty shit you’re trying to hurt them.