Make Maintenance Scary Again

[Vekter]

tl;dr I'm suggesting changes to rule 4 so you can just fluoride stare at this and leave if that's a deal breaker for you.

Someone mentioned last night that Monkestation has a policy where antags are heavily discouraged from resorting to murder in public, but all bets are off in maintenance. I like this; it's flavorful and makes maintenance a dangerous place to be again.

I think it would be interesting to have LRP inherit the existing MRP antag murder rules (relaxed escalation but can't just kill people for body count, objectives notwithstanding) but you can kill anyone if they're in maintenance. Find interesting ways to lure or trick your prey into the maint tunnels. Knock them out and drag them behind engineering to finish them off.

"But what if you start a fight in maint and it spills out into the halls?" - We wouldn't expect players to be able to just run into the hall and antags to have to throw up their hands and give up, if you're already beating someone to death with a toolbox and they get out into the hall, finish the job.

"Can I knock someone out or otherwise restrain them, then drag them into maint and kill them there?" - Yes.

"How does this apply to antag targets?" - It doesn't.

"What if some guy trips me and takes my shit/insults me/*insert random petty interaction*" - This only applies to escalationless conflict; anything you could kill someone on MRP for (pretty much any minor slight) will be fine here. The only thing this targets is wordless depopulation of the station.

Pros:

• Prevents antags from just straight-up going from department to department murdering everyone (which is only fun for the person doing it).
• More flavorful.
• Makes maintenance the spooky, threatening place it's supposed to be.
• Still allows for the kind of freedom most LRP antag mains enjoy, you just have to take people into maint to actually kill them.
• Drives further paranoia ("Does that guy actually need help with something or is he just trying to get me where he can kill me?").

Cons:

• Slightly more restrictive than rule 4 is now.
• Makes for less open chaos on the station.

[Timberpoes]

Spicy.

I probably wouldn't implement it on LRP unless feedback was pretty much universally approving. But I like it.

I'd also probably rewrite the RP antag rules to better suit this if I were to implement it, so don't worry about those if you think they're trash for LRP even with this change.

[Vekter]

Spicy.

I probably wouldn't implement it on LRP unless feedback was pretty much universally approving. But I like it.

I'd also probably rewrite the RP antag rules to better suit this if I were to implement it, so don't worry about those if you think they're trash for LRP even with this change.

There's definitely wiggle room here, but the general idea is to prevent people from just running around murdering the shit out of everyone in broad daylight while giving them a way to still kill anyone they want.

[Timberpoes]

That said, I'm worried about the kinds of tickets that would pop up on LRP surrounding kills similar to MRP. It's not in LRP server culture for antags to do complex location and objective algebra before they kill. They just kill.

This is also gonna cause any admin that hates assessing things based on subjectivity like self defense/escalation kills by antags out of maint etc and making calls on anything but 30 pages of black and white rules have a conniption.

[Vekter]

This is also gonna cause any admin that hates assessing things based on subjectivity like self defense/escalation kills by antags out of maint etc and making calls on anything but 30 pages of black and white rules have a conniption.

It really wouldn't be that different than how we already determine self-defense matters for non-antags. As far as escalation, it's the same relaxed escalation as on MRP, so it's literally just "did this person call you a poopy head". The bar would be incredibly low.

[Stabbystab]

I get the idea with this but I don’t think it makes any sense limiting the antags ability to antagonize. They are people who are at war with nanotrasen so I feel like limiting their ability to wage war is very much fail rp and plus leads to way more boring round with less of the madness that ss13 is known for. Thats my take.

[Vekter]

I get the idea with this but I don’t think it makes any sense limiting the antags ability to antagonize. They are people who are at war with nanotrasen so I feel like limiting their ability to wage war is very much fail rp and plus leads to way more boring round with less of the madness that ss13 is known for. Thats my take.

I have a theory that a big reason why both Sybil and Basil are empty most of the time is because people have gotten tired of every round involving being murdered by someone who's powergaming as hard as humanly possible. I think this could be an interesting way to allow for the kind of conflict that people enjoy on LRP while applying a bit of a guiding hand for some of that chaos.

[Stabbystab]

I get the idea with this but I don’t think it makes any sense limiting the antags ability to antagonize. They are people who are at war with nanotrasen so I feel like limiting their ability to wage war is very much fail rp and plus leads to way more boring round with less of the madness that ss13 is known for. Thats my take.

I have a theory that a big reason why both Sybil and Basil are empty most of the time is because people have gotten tired of every round involving being murdered by someone who's powergaming as hard as humanly possible. I think this could be an interesting way to allow for the kind of conflict that people enjoy on LRP while applying a bit of a guiding hand for some of that chaos.

If you want a big reason for why they are dead is because a lot of people hate a lot of recent changes…. Changes like this but I digress. This would be a fine change on Manuel but not on Terry or Sybil

[Vekter]

I get the idea with this but I don’t think it makes any sense limiting the antags ability to antagonize. They are people who are at war with nanotrasen so I feel like limiting their ability to wage war is very much fail rp and plus leads to way more boring round with less of the madness that ss13 is known for. Thats my take.

I have a theory that a big reason why both Sybil and Basil are empty most of the time is because people have gotten tired of every round involving being murdered by someone who's powergaming as hard as humanly possible. I think this could be an interesting way to allow for the kind of conflict that people enjoy on LRP while applying a bit of a guiding hand for some of that chaos.

If you want a big reason for why they are dead is because a lot of people hate a lot of recent changes…. Changes like this but I digress. This would be a fine change on Manuel but not on Terry or Sybil

I think we both have different outlooks on the game, so maybe this change isn't for you, which is fine. I think the chaos should be dialed back a little because I feel like it's pushing new players away from the game. I would prefer we steer the game away from becoming a constant combat simulator, or TTT with extra steps.

[Nabski]

I get the idea with this but I don’t think it makes any sense limiting the antags ability to antagonize. They are people who are at war with nanotrasen so I feel like limiting their ability to wage war is very much fail rp and plus leads to way more boring round with less of the madness that ss13 is known for. Thats my take.

I have a theory that a big reason why both Sybil and Basil are empty most of the time is because people have gotten tired of every round involving being murdered by someone who's powergaming as hard as humanly possible. I think this could be an interesting way to allow for the kind of conflict that people enjoy on LRP while applying a bit of a guiding hand for some of that chaos.

For a while the death issue was compounded by if you died then there was a good chance that was it, not going to be a new round for another 2-3 hours. This led to a everyone has to always be revived style informal thing or antags being socially discouraged from doing much of anything at all.

I think this idea is fresh and fun. What about the other direction of it, rather than upping the escalation requirements for everywhere other than maint all escalation standards are lowered in maint for EVERYONE not just antags.

EDIT BECAUSE I WAS APPARENTLY TOO SLOW TO POST: APPARENTLY I AM IN THE MORE CHAOS CAMP.

[Vekter]

For a while the death issue was compounded by if you died then there was a good chance that was it, not going to be a new round for another 2-3 hours. This led to a everyone has to always be revived style informal thing or antags being socially discouraged from doing much of anything at all.

I think this idea is fresh and fun. What about the other direction of it, rather than upping the escalation requirements for everywhere other than maint all escalation standards are lowered in maint for EVERYONE not just antags.

EDIT BECAUSE I WAS APPARENTLY TOO SLOW TO POST: APPARENTLY I AM IN THE MORE CHAOS CAMP.

Would be interesting. I'm not sure it would be wise as I don't know that I like the idea of just everyone being able to kill anyone for even the slightest provocation in maint, but it would be an interesting experiment. I would only agree to one if we had the other, though; if you're suggesting this instead of my suggestion, I'm not for it.

[warbluke]

I am iffy on it. The concept is cool but kind of predicated on the idea that the station outside of maintenance will always be a well lit and safe environment compared to the tunnels, when in reality after a good flood or some meteors maint can often be the safest place on the station.
If I break all the lights in a hall and spray some graffiti and put up some tasteful bloodstains it wouldn't make much sense for that space to have tighter escalation than a maintenance tunnel based on maintenance being inherently spookier.

[Nabski]

Standard Escalation Policy
You may begin IC conflicts with another player if it does not excessively interfere with their ability to do their job. While you are allowed to escalate conflicts, if it leads to violence and you have poor IC reasoning for inciting it, you may face administrative action.

Killing a crewmate is a severe response, and requires severe justification to do, such as those in Rule 1's precedents, or Rule 4.

Critically wounded characters must be treated or taken to the medbay by the standing party where reasonable, and taking unnecessary action against a downed player opens you up to reprisal. If you are incapacitated in a fight and treated, or the conflict is otherwise meaningfully broken, you are expected to require an IC reason beyond 'bruised ego' to re-initiate it.

I would probably add an two sentences for the maint scuffles section, that you can escalate to violence in maint after at least 3 bits of interaction (IE; talking, shoving, clearly running away/interacting with the other player). Fights ending in critical wounds require the player to be returned to the main hallway and either medical staff or a department of the downed coworker to be notified and a response given (Call it out on the radio or use the PDA. A response would be either that they are coming to get them or they don't give a shit).

The relaxed critical wound part is because I miss the interactions that came from helping wounded people in the hallways. The current rules have all conflicts self contained between the two parties and medbay. Helping someone get back up as they crawl through the halls gets you involved in whatever their conflict is.

[Stabbystab]

From everyone I’ve talked to from lrp to mrp I’ve seen an opposite reaction, a lot of people are looking for a mrp environment but with lrp chaos. Lot of that chaos is caused by free range antags who don’t have many to any restrictions for dumb stuff they can do. Wallstation had a mrp rules but with lrp antags and chaos and everyone for its time loved it. It united the community, this will just keep us bickering and divided I feel. That’s my stance and a stance of a lot of people I’ve talked with.

[Vekter]

From everyone I’ve talked to from lrp to mrp I’ve seen an opposite reaction, a lot of people are looking for a mrp environment but with lrp chaos. Lot of that chaos is caused by free range antags who don’t have many to any restrictions for dumb stuff they can do. Wallstation had a mrp rules but with lrp antags and chaos and everyone for its time loved it. It united the community, this will just keep us bickering and divided I feel. That’s my stance and a stance of a lot of people I’ve talked with.

I don't know how you get an MRP environment with LRP antags given that you'll just get killed for trying to RP with anyone, but go off I guess

[Stabbystab]

From everyone I’ve talked to from lrp to mrp I’ve seen an opposite reaction, a lot of people are looking for a mrp environment but with lrp chaos. Lot of that chaos is caused by free range antags who don’t have many to any restrictions for dumb stuff they can do. Wallstation had a mrp rules but with lrp antags and chaos and everyone for its time loved it. It united the community, this will just keep us bickering and divided I feel. That’s my stance and a stance of a lot of people I’ve talked with.

I don't know how you get an MRP environment with LRP antags given that you'll just get killed for trying to RP with anyone, but go off I guess

I understand you never went on wall station but it worked perfectly. More rules doesn’t make better rp it just forces people to act more roboticly.
Fixed it sorry wrote it in quotes

[TheLoLSwat]

I get the idea with this but I don’t think it makes any sense limiting the antags ability to antagonize. They are people who are at war with nanotrasen so I feel like limiting their ability to wage war is very much fail rp and plus leads to way more boring round with less of the madness that ss13 is known for. Thats my take.

I have a theory that a big reason why both Sybil and Basil are empty most of the time is because people have gotten tired of every round involving being murdered by someone who's powergaming as hard as humanly possible. I think this could be an interesting way to allow for the kind of conflict that people enjoy on LRP while applying a bit of a guiding hand for some of that chaos.

I don’t think this is true purely because I have faith in the sybilmin team to catch a boogeyman powergamer. The issue would fall on poor admin enforcement if bad actors did as much damage as you are saying

As for the rule 4 suggestion, it’s sound in theory but I am worried about how it would work in practice. The bar is already lower on LRP so I don’t know how admins would go about enforcing this without it becoming a ticket skill check where you have to make up a random flimsy reason on the spot for killing someone as an antag.

This should be attempted on MRP first as a tweak to the RPR rules instead of being hail mary’d to an lrp server that probably wouldn’t want it

[Stabbystab]

I told like 4 Sybil players so far about this and each of them have reacted the same, negatively to this change.

[Stabbystab]

Also before someone claims I’m only against this because I like to kill people I have had antags off for well over 6 months on my own free will.

[TheBibleMelts]

oh hey it's that thing I mentioned yesterday. totally support. adds tension to the dark tunnels like you're in the wilderness. would reduce the nrp bloodbath on lrp that the main halls and departments devolve into whenever someone feels like depopulating the server, too.

do it. make random bursts of violence in public something shocking to see again, and make the maint tunnels scary to prowl.

[conrad]

I don't think turf based killing should matter. To me it breaks immersion to plan a murder in maints just 'cos it's within the server rules rather than some in-universe contrivance.

[conrad]

But if thou MUST, you make things cool with carrots, not sticks. Make boning legal in maintenance on MRP, that'll make them scary again.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Its cute. I like it. Its thematic and empowering.

Semantic issues may occur. Like ahelps arguing “well actually i wasn’t actually in maint when they started killing me” “and actually there was a deconstructed wall exposing maintence to primary center hallway so was i really in maintenance?” That kind of thing might make this rule more stressful than it needs to be and im not really sure how you solve it.
Also, how would you feel about expanding this room to other isolated locales? Locked dorm rooms, surgery rooms with the shutters down, or otherwise non-public locations? That might ease the sort of arbitrary feel.
A shift from “kills in maint are valid” to “antagonists are encouraged to get up to unjustified acts of violence on isolated tartets who they are likely to get away with killing, as would make sense for their character and the role they play in the story.”

[Indie-ana Jones]

I think this is a very bad idea for LRP. I know Sybils dead but this would only serve to keep it that way.

[Vekter]

Its cute. I like it. Its thematic and empowering.

Semantic issues may occur. Like ahelps arguing “well actually i wasn’t actually in maint when they started killing me” “and actually there was a deconstructed wall exposing maintence to primary center hallway so was i really in maintenance?” That kind of thing might make this rule more stressful than it needs to be and im not really sure how you solve it.

I mean, it's not hard to sort out in most cases. Someone doing most of the killing and then dragging them into maints to finish them off would clearly be line-toeing. The wall example doesn't pass the sniff test; maintenance doesn't stop being maintenance just because part of it is exposed to a hallway.

Also, how would you feel about expanding this room to other isolated locales? Locked dorm rooms, surgery rooms with the shutters down, or otherwise non-public locations? That might ease the sort of arbitrary feel.
A shift from “kills in maint are valid” to “antagonists are encouraged to get up to unjustified acts of violence on isolated tartets who they are likely to get away with killing, as would make sense for their character and the role they play in the story.”

Maybe. That makes a lot of sense as well but I think it would create more of the semantic issues you're worried about than anything.

I think this is a very bad idea for LRP. I know Sybils dead but this would only serve to keep it that way.

Then there's very little risk in trying it out. If it doesn't work, we haven't harmed anything.

I don't think turf based killing should matter. To me it breaks immersion to plan a murder in maints just 'cos it's within the server rules rather than some in-universe contrivance.

From what I understand, the idea on Monke is that it makes more sense that antags would want to keep their misdeeds out of the main hallways because it could result in them being harmed themselves. Why would someone who has orders to steal a bunch of shit go on a murderous rampage and not actually steal any of it?

[Stabbystab]

[/quote]

From what I understand, the idea on Monke is that it makes more sense that antags would want to keep their misdeeds out of the main hallways because it could result in them being harmed themselves. Why would someone who has orders to steal a bunch of shit go on a murderous rampage and not actually steal any of it?
[/quote]
It should be for the PLAYER to decide not some rule limiting the freedom of a player. The whole point of antags is you get to let loose and be the villain the guy who drives the story for everyone else on the station. If you want to drag people into maint and kill them it should be your chose not because the rules force you. This is a sandbox don’t limit the tools in the sandbox for the sandbox is no longer fun when you take my bucket and my shovel and force me to use my hands.

[Vekter]

It should be for the PLAYER to decide not some rule limiting the freedom of a player. The whole point of antags is you get to let loose and be the villain the guy who drives the story for everyone else on the station. If you want to drag people into maint and kill them it should be your chose not because the rules force you. This is a sandbox don’t limit the tools in the sandbox for the sandbox is no longer fun when you take my bucket and my shovel and force me to use my hands.

I understand and have read your other posts in this thread, you're re-treading opinions you've already given at this point.

[Itseasytosee2me]

Yeah im totally down to see how this works.

Something tells me there should be some
scenerio out there where a traitor lets loose and rakes indiscriminate havoc on the station. Thats like the whole credo of one of the syndie factions. I don’t know exactly what that would be or how you could keep it rare and fun. Code issue maybe.

[warbluke]

This should be something enforced through code by making sounds muffled in maintenance or an equivalent rather than a rules policy.

[Vekter]

Yeah im totally down to see how this works.

Something tells me there should be some
scenerio out there where a traitor lets loose and rakes indiscriminate havoc on the station. Thats like the whole credo of one of the syndie factions. I don’t know exactly what that would be or how you could keep it rare and fun. Code issue maybe.

This is definitely a code issue, but I would be 100% here for an objective that just straight-up says "cause as much chaos and havoc as possible" if we started limiting this kind of thing on LRP. I have zero problem with antags sometimes getting to act like current LRP antags, it just shouldn't be the norm.

[Indie-ana Jones]

I've never heard a Sybil player clamber for Manuel's more strict antag control as something they'd want to have on Sybil, rather if anything was wanted from Manuel it was the higher expectancy on people to act in character. That being said, I would genuinely be amazed if this actually increased the server's pop outside of Manuel players taking over Sybil as a Manuel 2 of sorts, if there's enough of them to have two servers going.

[Vekter]

I've never heard a Sybil player clamber for Manuel's more strict antag control as something they'd want to have on Sybil, rather if anything was wanted from Manuel it was the higher expectancy on people to act in character. That being said, I would genuinely be amazed if this actually increased the server's pop outside of Manuel players taking over Sybil as a Manuel 2 of sorts, if there's enough of them to have two servers going.

I've been pushing for us to get more strict about RP expectations, so all I can say is for you to ahelp if you notice someone acting like this on LRP.

[Stabbystab]

This would be a good Manuel change not a good Lrp change

[GamerAndYeahMick]

Okay for MRP but going into the next term I won't be entertaining any antag restrictions to LRP, terry is popular and I want to keep it that way

Edit: Of course the other two would need to weigh in so don't take this as a blanket declaration

[Capsandi]

Maintenance being not scary is ultimately brought about by the changes in how maintenance has been mapped out over the years, if you were to boot up a commit from 7 or so years ago you would find that maintenance had much less lighting, more 1 tile wide halls(which gives the advantage to the attacker but have recently been deemed unacceptable by the map leads cause they were impossible to see with tall walls), no atmos net and no reinforced exterior walls, and no furnished set pieces which are usually lit, open, and only get in the way of killing people in maintenance.
This isn't mentioning the biggest issue i find with maints is that, due to directional access, wherever you might find yourself, you can just run right back out into the hallway within a few seconds, meaning that running is always quick and easy(removing this has been blocked by maptainers).
So, as much as I disagree with Vekter's idea in an ideal setting, the truth is that most real maintenance fights go along these lines:
>antag opens with an attack
>if the attack wasn't an instant KO the victim runs directly out into the halls for bystander aid, even if the victim was in maintenance with NO ID
making maints the dedicated PVP zone(lol) wont even make them a harrowing place to be, but I'm glad someone else realizes how bad they are now.
Edit: Oh fuck this is in policy discussion I thought it was In ideas, but this is on topic as the stated impetus to the change is that maintenance is not scary which is explained as an emergent codebase issue and best solved as one.

[conrad]

From what I understand, the idea on Monke is that it makes more sense that antags would want to keep their misdeeds out of the main hallways because it could result in them being harmed themselves. Why would someone who has orders to steal a bunch of shit go on a murderous rampage and not actually steal any of it?

That's fine and all as an opinion, but it stops being narrative and starts being gamey when it's put as a server rule.

I could just as easily go on the limb that the antag was hired to steal things and sabotage the station and instead took it as an opportunity to indulge in being a serial killer.

Which is allowed in LRP and moderated heavily on MRP (you can still do it but only a few times and you need a really good reason i.e.: relaxed escalation rules).

The overarching goal of this policy thread, from what I understood, was to make maintenance scary. It'd certainly be scarier if the MRP relaxation on escalation turned into full blown murderboning within the maintenance turf.

It'd just be annoying if it turned into a CPH murder restriction in LRP.

[GPeckman]

I have a theory that a big reason why both Sybil and Basil are empty most of the time is because people have gotten tired of every round involving being murdered by someone who's powergaming as hard as humanly possible. I think this could be an interesting way to allow for the kind of conflict that people enjoy on LRP while applying a bit of a guiding hand for some of that chaos.

If powergaming was the cause, don't you think Terry would be having some pop issues as well? Terry players are not any less powergamey than Sybil players. Quite the opposite, if anything.

Anyways, I have to agree with what Conrad and some of the other people in this thread have said. This doesn't really make sense on LRP; restricting conflicts from happening in the halls isn't going to magically make maintenance more scary, it's just going to make the halls less scary.

[Vekter]

I have a theory that a big reason why both Sybil and Basil are empty most of the time is because people have gotten tired of every round involving being murdered by someone who's powergaming as hard as humanly possible. I think this could be an interesting way to allow for the kind of conflict that people enjoy on LRP while applying a bit of a guiding hand for some of that chaos.

If powergaming was the cause, don't you think Terry would be having some pop issues as well? Terry players are not any less powergamey than Sybil players. Quite the opposite, if anything.

EU players don't really have an alternative right now. Campbell is never actually going to have pop because of self-sustain reasons ("Nobody ever plays on Campbell and all my friends play on Terry so nobody ever plays on Campbell..."). We really don't know if players actually prefer the current status quo on Terry as a whole or not. You could make the assumption that most are fine with it, but i wouldn't be surprised to find out at least some just put up with the powergaming issues because they don't have much of an option elsewhere unless they want to either make their own fork or learn Russian.

I would be interested in an experiment where we implement antag restrictions on Terry for a day or two and see if folks stick around, or do MSO's favorite thing and turn Terry off for a few days to see if people play on Campbell. I think it'd have a higher success rate than doing it with Manuel since the lag issues aren't a concern.

[Itseasytosee2me]

EU players don't really have an alternative right now. Campbell is never actually going to have pop because of self-sustain reasons ("Nobody ever plays on Campbell and all my friends play on Terry so nobody ever plays on Campbell..."). We really don't know if players actually prefer the current status quo on Terry as a whole or not. You could make the assumption that most are fine with it, but i wouldn't be surprised to find out at least some just put up with the powergaming issues because they don't have much of an option elsewhere unless they want to either make their own fork or learn Russian.

I would be interested in an experiment where we implement antag restrictions on Terry for a day or two and see if folks stick around, or do MSO's favorite thing and turn Terry off for a few days to see if people play on Campbell. I think it'd have a higher success rate than doing it with Manuel since the lag issues aren't a concern.

All the anecdotal evidence seems to suggest otherwise. Id bet money it would piss alot of people off.

[oranges]

sybil's lack of admins seems like a way more pressing problem and replacing the admin candidate system with one that will allow candidates from servers other than manuel will probably solve a lot of the issues.

[TypicalRig]

I'm not opposed to seeing a test run of this, but I don't see it faring well. More spite ahelps done to waste their killer's time over niche cases of "but this not maints??", which is already done a lot when it comes to issues where antags kill unrelated to their target. It hasn't been so bad lately due to letting antags fuck, but this ruling would more or less reverse progress made to give antags more freedom to antagonize.

What I expect to actually happen is we'll have conga sec doing even more laps in maints, making maints even LESS dangerous than before because now everyone knows that a lot of the drama will be restricted to maintenace.

[Vekter]

Timber's looking at putting this on as an addendum to MRP to let antags do more antag stuff in maint, which I'm cool with, but it's clear it's not really something folks would be interested in for LRP. I think we need to look at the root causes of what happened with Sybil and Basil in general, maybe run a player poll or two to find out why people migrated off those servers. I still think a lot of it was folks being fed up with not being able to compete with antags, but there's a number of different potential causes.

I'll also do what I can to admin more often on Sybil when it's actually got players, though the feedback I was hearing was that there was too much admin intervention on Sybil, not too little.

[Timberpoes]

To abuse my mod permissions on a locked post and clarify a bit my own individual thoughts and the context behind this potentially being an option for the RP ruleset:

Currently this isn't something the LRP ruleset will really fit. I'm not sure the LRP admins really want it. I'm not sure the LRP players really want it. Outside of some niche desire to desperately throw shit at Sybil's wall and see what sticks, this would never have really been a starter on LRP.

However, there's a possibility the RP rules can accommodate another antag restriction relaxation, but I'm hyper-cautious. I wrote the current rules on RP server antags, so I trust my own gut when I think I need to be cautious.

Why is this relevant to LRP? Well, it would be another incremental change that would bring the RP rules closer to the LRP rules on antags. One of my long term endgame goals is figuring out where MRP's line lies for antag freedoms while still retaining everything else that makes our MRP the black hole that sucks in Sybil gigachads, never to be seen again once they pass the RP event horizon.

Every time I look to change the rules or set some policy, my goal is to bring LRP and MRP closer together. Not to eliminate either ruleset, more to blur the lines between them. It's important such changes are popular and well-received whether they happen on LRP or MRP - the goal is to genuinely improve the game for the people playing it after all without all that grandstanding about whether LRP or MRP is the best.

My hope is that there exists some magical equilibrium. Some brand new currently undiscovered ruleset that brings out the best of both worlds. Something satisfying LRP and MRP players combined to a greater extent than the LRP or MRP rules alone can do for either set of players.

But this is not something which can be forced. It is the natural progression of small but liked changes to rules and policy. Adjustments that make the game more fun by introducing a lesson learned from the opposing ruleset.