make metastation the default low population map

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dendydoom
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make metastation the default low population map

Post by dendydoom » #750678

i know there are many data enjoyers but i'm not really one of them, i like to go off emotionally driven anecdotal evidence aka the vibes.

i propose that we make metastation the low population map by default.

this isn't a judgement on other maps at all, just the fact that meta is.......... the meta of ss13, like the vanilla default experience.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by Stabbystab » #750681

Also remove weighted random votes so we stopped getting the 2% rolls!!!
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #750696

yeah this is probably a vibe. Would be sick to have maps built for lowpop, with antags built for lowpop, maybe jobs built for lowpop. I'm talking like 8-20 players. Almost like a ss13 lite mode.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by Timberpoes » #750726

I am very, very, very strongly against this.

I have already removed almost all lowpop restrictions on all maps across all servers, because the same small pool of maps kept rolling and people got bored.

It feels like I did the the exact opposite of declaring a single low pop map that all must play by default.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by Vekter » #750753

No, for two reasons:

1) I'm firmly against any situation where we're intentionally preventing a map from being played based on vibes alone.
2) From a more petty standpoint, I don't want to give anything to the kind of people who would abuse a reboot vote to get off of maps they don't like.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by warbluke » #750828

Please free us from two day long icebox rounds into the warm embrace of two day long meta rounds
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by TheLoLSwat » #751047

yes pls i do not like icebox and i dont think there are many people that do
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by BrianBackslide » #751050

As much as I would like to yeet both Meta and Delta into the sun for being lame and boring, the fact is that those maps are actually functional at lowpop. Play icebox or birdshot without an engineer and watch the power quickly run out because the map design strongly inhibits use of alternative power and the SMESes seem to drain quicker too. Lowpop rounds end up being very short not by the lone antag grinding objectives, but because you hit full blackout at 20 minutes.

You can't even use inducers or swap APC cells to get around stuff because of the whole megacell bollocks nonsense.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by Indie-ana Jones » #751671

I think Meta is the best equipped station for lowpop.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by RedBaronFlyer » #751689

Oh, icebox is default low pop map? No wonder Sybil was complaining about icebox 24/7 near the end. I like icebox but imo icebox is in my view an speciality map that should never be the default at any level because it operates different enough to the rest of the maps, due to the whole not in space thing.

Ever since Kilo got removed we haven’t really had a dedicated low/mid pop map. I don’t really blame maptainers for not making a map for the dead/low pop hours though… it does mean that a lot of the maps struggle because they’re clearly designed for 50-70~ish pop and struggle on either side. (See low pop hours of 1-20 people or monkestation with 90+ people on it)
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by zxaber » #751692

Make Sokoban the default lowpop map.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by norsvenska » #751698

zxaber wrote: Sat Sep 28, 2024 9:56 pm Make Sokoban the default lowpop map.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by kieth4 » #751899

dendydoom wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 12:30 am i know there are many data enjoyers but i'm not really one of them, i like to go off emotionally driven anecdotal evidence aka the vibes.

i propose that we make metastation the low population map by default.

this isn't a judgement on other maps at all, just the fact that meta is.......... the meta of ss13, like the vanilla default experience.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by conrad » #753337

I always took meta as like the default moba map on a moba with multiple maps.

I think this is a good idea. Let it steam until people say they are bored of so much meta then revert the decision in the future.

Also regarding this:
Vekter wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 6:12 am 1) I'm firmly against any situation where we're intentionally preventing a map from being played based on vibes alone.
What's the decision behind intentionally preventing maps other than icebox on lowpop being played, then?

I get the meta hate but we build things with love and there's a lot more meta love. And I don't buy the usual argument that it stunts new map development. A map simply has to be as good, or better, than meta to be preferred to meta.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by Vekter » #753365

conrad wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:39 pm Also regarding this:
Vekter wrote: Thu Sep 26, 2024 6:12 am 1) I'm firmly against any situation where we're intentionally preventing a map from being played based on vibes alone.
What's the decision behind intentionally preventing maps other than icebox on lowpop being played, then?

I get the meta hate but we build things with love and there's a lot more meta love. And I don't buy the usual argument that it stunts new map development. A map simply has to be as good, or better, than meta to be preferred to meta.
IIRC Icebox, Meta, and Birdshot can all roll during low pop, it's not just Icebox. We tune the map population numbers based on the number of players who are intended to be on that map at a minimum, as having like 10 people on Delta gets really quiet and uninteresting.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by GamerAndYeahMick » #753799

I favour this
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by NecromancerAnne » #753821

If this is only vibes based, then my vibes are that anyone who thinks this solves population issues is grasping at straws and capitulating to desperation than actually creating working solutions. There is no ideal map for low-pop, low-pop is inherently complicated by the lack of consistent staffing. Meta is not distinctly advantaged or disadvantaged in this regard compared to any other map. The same issues you find on Meta you will find elsewhere, and vice versa.

If you wanted a functional solution, you would need a map which is broadly accessible by any member of the crew to make up for deficits, doesn't appear outside of very low population numbers (and honestly, what happens when the map is up and you roll into a higher population count because the round lasted long enough that people started to join in the morning?), and also no concerns with many of the restrictions that roles are meant to place on players for their overall autonomy to act in a round and what gear they can access (basically, be equally happy with people being easily able to get any gear from any department on this map as they so wish to be able to easily flip between roles as needed). That is pretty much the only way you're solving low-pop via a dedicated low-pop map. If that isn't going to work, then neither is Meta being the default. Also, you need someone to actually make that map.

That solution isn't entirely vibes based either. I helped design such a map for a low pop downstream for a small group (15 at its height I believe) and it worked exceptionally well. Nothing short of something.similar was a feasible solution.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by Itseasytosee2me » #753845

My thoughts are that some maps, icebox and tram I think are the worst offenders, just have bad general appeal. This isn't really a discussion about how well meta is equipped to handle low pop, none of the current maps are designed to handle lowpop (that could change.)

Meta just has more mass appeal. Some people who dislike tram or icebox will play anyways because the pop is nice. If there isn't any pop and they hate the map they aren't gonna play. So the idea is that meta will bring about a more consistent lowpop playerbase as apposed to a flat line. Meta is so inoffensive, and doesn't have any gimmicks that cause it to implode on lowpop.

I agree its not the best solution, but the best solution would probably involve making one or more low pop maps, which is alot of effort.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by dendydoom » #753847

there is a ravine between the two choices of "change the default map to the most popular available map" and "create an entirely new well designed and feature complete map from scratch"

this idea was the result of me first hand watching groups of players see that it's icebox again on sybil and collectively choose not to play. over the course of weeks. we can accommodate these players and give them a reason to play with very little effort or commitment of time and resources on our part.

im one of the people that was vehemently against anything that would favour some maps over others but you know at the end of the day when you see people in front of your eyes going "im not going to play because i don't like x" it's not the craziest leap of logic to go "how about we try changing x at no personal cost to see if it has any effect" and all it really requires is putting the politics of the community aside for 5 minutes and actually trying something to see if it has an effect. if it doesn't, then change it back. what was the cost? nothing.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by NecromancerAnne » #753851

If mapping solutions aren't possible, you are better served looking at skeleton crew access instead. They are guaranteed to only be assigned during low pop periods. Bite the bullet and grant unilateral and generous station access during these periods. We can't pretend like there is any real departmental boundaries that function during these periods anyway. People will often need to break in. And if access is already there, there is less of a barrier to people completing critical station setup.

The people leaving servers because of certain maps likely will do so during any population period. If the only existing pop on a given server is experiencing low pop, who is to say they won't grow tired of meta as well?

Additionally, there are ways to attract people to complete the work for you. We have had mapping competitions in the past to encourage players towards completing projects with a reward at the end. Why not run one for our perfect low-pop map and put them to the test. Let people vote for it. Even if that map is 'Mini-Meta', I don't care. We need not feel like we are without options for reaching out to the community to help solve the issue. Whatever makes it seem less like investment into any map other than Meta is a waste of time.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by DrAmazing343 » #753855

In all honesty— I understand the points you’re making, Anne, and I don’t think you’re wrong, but there’s not really a cost to letting the Vibes Guy talk at least until there’s more stable pop (if it succeeds) or there’s not (the status quo).

I think we should be more open to trying things like this with the idea that we can always take-backsies it the occasion calls for it.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by NecromancerAnne » #753863

I just find this thinking reductionist. Or at the very least, defeatist. I don't inherently trust the line of thinking of having to compromise the game as is to fit a very narrow criteria before it becomes attractive again to an equally small handful of potential players. If what had them leave in the first place was so flimsy as map rotation moving away from Meta, what other compromises would need to happen to keep them around? If pop dies off when the next round isn't Meta? Just stop map rotation at all? And for how long can you keep this process of elimination up?

I want to push back against that before we have considered or explored innovative solutions first. Ones that have a goal in mind and a clear one at that. I've already suggested some; it just requires thinking about the issue with an open mind about how to proceed and a bit of willingness to do so.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by Striders13 » #753879

NecromancerAnne wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 12:28 pm I just find this thinking reductionist. Or at the very least, defeatist. I don't inherently trust the line of thinking of having to compromise the game as is to fit a very narrow criteria before it becomes attractive again to an equally small handful of potential players. If what had them leave in the first place was so flimsy as map rotation moving away from Meta, what other compromises would need to happen to keep them around? If pop dies off when the next round isn't Meta? Just stop map rotation at all? And for how long can you keep this process of elimination up?

I want to push back against that before we have considered or explored innovative solutions first. Ones that have a goal in mind and a clear one at that. I've already suggested some; it just requires thinking about the issue with an open mind about how to proceed and a bit of willingness to do so.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by Mimepride » #753890

We used to have a map ideally suited to lowpop. It was named Kilo--but nobody wanted to maintain it for, honestly, pretty good reasons. This got replaced by birdshit, which was "labelled" and treated as a lowpop map, when lowpop restricted map-voting was still a thing. It really did not feel like a lowpop map though; it's not as good as kilo was and it's not as well suited to lowpop as kilo was.

Icebox was also in that lowpop list--again it doesn't feel like a lowpop map. It's really too big of a station.

Tram? Again, too big and the departments isolated. Feels profoundly empty under 30 people.

Meta is the only map in rotation right now that actually feels like a lowpop map. It's maints are small and the station is designed in such a way that running into other people is far from unlikely.

I am not a vibes person though. I think that when referencing past data on the correlation between map rotation and population that the wrong metrics were measured. I've said it before, and I've said it again--satisfaction is a real and valid metric, and real-life organizations and institutions literally live and die by it; the fact that it used to be so irrelevant with respect to the coderbase is just a symptom of a profoundly broken system. In the case of birdshot earlier this year, on a 25 pop sybil server(seems so large now) I would estimate that you could EASILY count 3/4 players as dissatisfied with that map. When the bulk of a slowly declining server's population are crying out "I hate this map, I don't want to play this map" those negligible correlations between map rotation and server population sound quieter and quieter...

What about Meta's satisfaction rating though? Yeah well, it seems obvious to me that it's satisfaction rating would be solidly positive.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by Vekter » #753892

My dislike for this (aside from the obvious matter of wanting us to play more than one map) is entirely based on not wanting to appease the kind of person who sends Zytolg or Cheshify hate over how much they dislike Birdshot or Northstar.

Call me petty if you want, but give it four months and you're going to get people making policy threads talking about wanting to remove all maps but Meta.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by Mimepride » #753895

Ultimately, if people don't like your map, the fault probably lies with you, and you should work to better your map so that people like it more. As people like to say around here, usually with great cruelty, "Skill Issue".

In birdshit's case--the idea that it was ready to be shipped when it replaced Kilo is a farce. It did and does need more work to make it less crap.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by NecromancerAnne » #753898

We don't have any satisfaction data. We could gather that, you are correct. But you'd have to draw from the populated servers, and who is to say they're representative given that Sybil is so lacking in people? Is this reflective of the entire population?

Still, better than nothing. I'll echo that sentiment of getting data first, if only because that is the most constructive approach. And then we can get some insight into whether or not this is even useful.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by Vekter » #753901

Mimepride wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 11:46 pm Ultimately, if people don't like your map, the fault probably lies with you, and you should work to better your map so that people like it more. As people like to say around here, usually with great cruelty, "Skill Issue".

In birdshit's case--the idea that it was ready to be shipped when it replaced Kilo is a farce. It did and does need more work to make it less crap.
The problem is that people can and will hate a map for the simple reason of "I don't like it" without actually having a reason for it.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by Mimepride » #753903

NecromancerAnne wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 12:42 am We don't have any satisfaction data.
Yep, and that's not an accident--just saying.

Remember: an analysis was done on the correlation between map voting and server population specifically because of the negative cocktail of birdshit+weighted random earlier this year. When the players took issue with the results, was any attempt made to analyze satisfaction, a totally valid statistical metric, in any capacity? No. Because it did not matter at all, until it did. Now the population of Sybil has declined such that statistical analysis is literally more difficult due to small sample size, making any analysis of player satisfaction less valid.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by NecromancerAnne » #753905

Mimepride wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 1:19 am
NecromancerAnne wrote: Wed Oct 16, 2024 12:42 am We don't have any satisfaction data.
Yep, and that's not an accident--just saying.

Remember: an analysis was done on the correlation between map voting and server population specifically because of the negative cocktail of birdshit+weighted random earlier this year. When the players took issue with the results, was any attempt made to analyze satisfaction, a totally valid statistical metric, in any capacity? No. Because it did not matter at all, until it did. Now the population of Sybil has declined such that statistical analysis is literally more difficult due to small sample size, making any analysis of player satisfaction less valid.
I think you're projecting too hard without anything to back this up in either way. As well as implying malicious intent behind a lack of feedback gathering as opposed to simply not having systems in place to do so conveniently (but such a thing can be implemented and should be). I certainly don't think github is a good method at all for getting proper community feedback from the actual playerbase itself. I agree with the principle of getting that information, but I'm not about to agree with your conspiratorial nonsense. Fuck off.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by dendydoom » #753940

NecromancerAnne wrote: Tue Oct 15, 2024 12:28 pm I just find this thinking reductionist. Or at the very least, defeatist. I don't inherently trust the line of thinking of having to compromise the game as is to fit a very narrow criteria before it becomes attractive again to an equally small handful of potential players. If what had them leave in the first place was so flimsy as map rotation moving away from Meta, what other compromises would need to happen to keep them around? If pop dies off when the next round isn't Meta? Just stop map rotation at all? And for how long can you keep this process of elimination up?

I want to push back against that before we have considered or explored innovative solutions first. Ones that have a goal in mind and a clear one at that. I've already suggested some; it just requires thinking about the issue with an open mind about how to proceed and a bit of willingness to do so.
i mostly agree with what you're saying and i intended to try and make this proposal as disconnected from the map-vote narrative as possible. cus none of this is supposed to be any sort of comment on what maps are good or what maps should be played or how they should be voted on.

i just see meta considered the most vanilla and accessible map for ss13 to take place in. it's the map everyone knows. it's well designed for busy and quiet areas. it's well equipped for low population shift starts. it's inoffensive and default, there are no complaints about its design because it supports all the important aspects of a good round and doesn't try to remix or interject with any of them.

putting aside my own complex feelings about the wider attitudes towards maps on tg, i would like to try and remove as many barriers as possible to people choosing to play, because sybil is struggling to find its footing right now. we need to be able to compromise on our perfect vision of how the game and community should be structured so that people are willing to play it when a server is struggling for population, because having a game that is active but imperfect is probably preferable to having a perfect game that is dead.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by DrAmazing343 » #753958

Dendy pretty perfectly puts a lot of my thoughts down here. I’d like to make some more somewhat drastic changes given all the player outcry I’ve heard and the rather stagnating population I’ve witnessed. It’s not a perfect solution, it is not the hat that fits all nor is perfectly adorned in bells and whistles, but it is something that is above all else worth a shot while we have such barebones pop on Sybil.

If indeed, this shit goes on to be such ass, I don’t believe this would be doing permanent damage. The beauty of the config is that it is not immutable- it is a set of variables.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by mrmelbert » #753959

I think this policy thread is redundant because Metastation is literally already the default map, but I could be wrong
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by DrAmazing343 » #753968

That would be super funny, but I think it's more like the low player ranges of like 1-20 that we're pondering changing. That's the range for like, Icebox/Bird/Meta, iirc? You'd know better than I, but I've just seem plenty of ice hate from the umpteenth lowpop sybil round rolling it.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by iansdoor » #754092

Very different administrative approach from when Basil community was stuck on birdshot/icebox, to which the mutual policy agreement was that maps needed to be cycled and played on to give rounds more interest. This did lead to a protest of individuals that also lead to bans, warnings and etc on players themselves.

Now, I don't hate icebox and rather enjoyed the always gravity on, but the issue here, there is no way to fuck off from the station to build up something new, or ghost roles as they were abused as second lives too much that those roles were hard coded out. Not mentioning that you could just RR someone out in the snow/plasma river or multiple Z.

Birdshot has always been questionable as they kept kilo mobster, but recently has been more community project. Some areas aren't nice and roomy like the other stations, but there is unique characteristic to how it was made. I have had alot of input on birdshot as it wasn't efficient in the most ideal ways and the focal foot traffic has been weird.

Meta is alright, been played on enough to be bland. Upside, being a station in space

Delta has shit power issues and sucks. Saving grace is solars only need to be wired. I genuinely pass on playing on this station

Tram is one long stretch that has dead end maintenance areas and weird asteroid rock that won't let you expand areas into. The usage of stairs feels awkward.

Northstar was one long hallway and suffered massive power issues. But that did play into the theme of a ship in which areas were easy departments and that maintenance was way too detailed.

Nebula, Flaunder, dworf, sokoban, cere and the etc have their positive and negatives.

The point of the rambling is that every station deserves a
guaranteed chance to be played on
and currently as mapping situation stands, there ain't alot of mappers mapping or maintaining as the past mappers are disheartened by birdshot unexpected removal and then placed back and the whole wallening debacle. There is some cruel feedback that consistently creeps in towards mappers. If you want examples, check public bans and appeals about folks telling mappers to hurt themselves.

The solution I have told Lukas in that past term, was make the mapping vote like CM voting with a bit more bias obscurity. So that past votes would vote forward to ensure that there was the guaranteed chance that station X was played on and station Y was not a back to back to back.
This is more of a when you code it suggestion and less policy change.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by GPeckman » #754107

iansdoor wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2024 9:02 am Very different administrative approach from when Basil community was stuck on birdshot/icebox, to which the mutual policy agreement was that maps needed to be cycled and played on to give rounds more interest. This did lead to a protest of individuals that also lead to bans, warnings and etc on players themselves.
Yeah, that has historically been the administrative approach to this issue. Problem is, Basil is deadpop and has been for a very long time, and now Sybil is in much the same situation. If the current approach doesn't seem to be helping with the pop issues then people are going to want to try something new.

Bear in mind, I'm saying this as someone who actually prefers icebox over meta. But I'd still give up either map on a heartbeat if I thought it would revive Sybil.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by IsaacExists » #754109

I'm totally for this and not because of any data, or vibes, but just because I like metastation. :p
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by MooCow12 » #754306

conrad wrote: Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:39 pm I always took meta as like the default moba map on a moba with multiple maps.

This

If I'm going to suffer through a round with a lack of heads of staff while there is a cult while the 0/1 no gear chaplain is running it down maint by himself int feeding I would at least like to play on the summoner's rift of ss13 maps.


Most other maps have some bullshit "mechanic" or "alterations" that makes the game harder for lowpop.

Delta station punishes sci for engineers not taking care of the sm, its the ONLY map where if the sm detonates ANOTHER department gets blown up because melbert decided to move it closer to sci, why is that fair for another department to directly suffer because someone griefed themselves? This is more than losing out on research points or matts its deleting someone else's job content and likely killing them in the process.

We might aswell put toxins next to the evac shuttle or medbay to see how other player's feel when they die because another department griefed themselves.

Engineers have no obligation to stop the sm from delaminating (it would be a policy nightmare and would harm newer players) so engineers are more than allowed to neglect the SM and let it blow up which is why ON EVERY OTHER MAP THE SM ONLY BLOWS UP ENGINEERING.

(Although now that I think about it I think my changes to explosion block made this much less of an issue I haven't played delta much since then, so I'll retract my complaints about delta if that stopped sci from getting blown open)


Tram has innate hazards and long travel times between departments which lowers productivity and causes the station to scale slower and medbay to more easily get overwhelmed.

Northstar has the same productivity reduction of tram on top of players just casually calling the shuttle because its north star and for no other reason, people calling shuttle over this map is why I will NEVER try to do a long term gimmick or plan to do anything on it and will instead just do whatever takes the shortest amount of time even as antagonist.

Birdshot should ONLY be high pop, it has less starting matts than every other map none at all in eva storage so good luck if there is only a single miner. Not to mention half of the station including medbay is exposed to space and only takes a single space immune simple mob or fire axe which requires a fucking army of atmos techs engineers and engineer borgs to fix.
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Re: make metastation the default low population map

Post by GamerAndYeahMick » #754322

We are going to relax the admin conduct policy about changing maps for no reason on Sybil, we are not going to make the map a default or fuck with map stuff on the config, this way it can be done if there's a reason to suspect it would hurt the pop on sybil, and future terms won't have to change the config and it can be reversed quite quickly when Sybil is normalised in pop again. Me and dramazing agree :D

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