Ei Nath Nerf

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:29 pm #103664

gib -> 175 brute and 175 burn, which may or may not be affected by armor.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10575

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:35 pm #103665

I said shit but this is actually a very big buff to Ei Nath since the main drawback to Ei Nath currently is that gibbing someone destroyers everything they have aside from a ID card. So this change makes it far easier to kill someone and steal items they have, including objectives.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:12 pm #103674

Steelpoint wrote:I said shit but this is actually a very big buff to Ei Nath since the main drawback to Ei Nath currently is that gibbing someone destroyers everything they have aside from a ID card. So this change makes it far easier to kill someone and steal items they have, including objectives.

I don't see a problem with this.

onleavedontatme · Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:14 pm

The wizard will have a very hard time actually killing anyone without a way to dispose of bodies.

Loud wizards rely on high mobility/spells to get around, so they usually don't have the time or access to take bodies to the crematorium or gibber (or even airlocks if being pursued by a mob).

If it just leaves a normal body people can patch and defib it within a minute.

It's one guy vs 60, what's the harm in him having a spell that gibs?

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:18 pm #103677

Magic man is bullshit and ei nath requires point blank

I don't see the harm in it gibbing, it's so iconic to walk next to the wizard and suddenly your friend fucking explodes

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:28 pm #103679

Isn't the whole point of wizard mode to get fucked over by a completely overpowered magic wielding antag?

Ei'nath is a way smaller problem than that lich spell that just gives the wizard a shitton of extra lives while its hard enough to even kill him once.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:29 pm #103680

It's MM that needs a nerf if anything

Ei nath by itself isn't so bad but MM+Ei Nath=hug box tears

But then again this is just part of the ongoing nerf-fest against anything useful

Might as well remove the wizard and just have the game mode spam summon spells at round start.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:34 pm #103681

>make a thread
>strawmen everywhere

lel

onleavedontatme · Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:36 pm

I'm having trouble finding the strawmen in this thread could you please point them out? The only thing that comes vaguely close is Ikarrus saying "may as well remove spells," and one post hardly qualifies as "strawmen everywhere"

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:58 pm #103690

So I alluded to a separate nerf/re-imagining for el nath (spanish for: the nath) in the pull request, let me write down what I was thinking:

When disintegrate was added it was certainly intended to be a touch attack, but there was no in game mechanics to properly have someone explode when you touch them. But now thanks to things like nodrop and abstract items, I could totally code an item that a wizard summons to his hand that represents a touch attack. So why not do that?

Disintergrate summons a glowing hand (gesture up in the air [pointing? Hand flat? Fist?]) nodrop abstract item. It has a noticeable on mob sprite and (obviously) requires a free hand to use. It removes that shitty drop down menu UI and requires that a wizard be robust enough to actually smack someone with his hand to work. Spell doesn't recharge until the hand actually connects, reusing the spell with the hand out just refunds the charge and puts the hand away. Spell still gibs.

Nerfs:
*Requires a modicum of robustness in clicking a guy
*Offers a tell to spessman that the wizard is going for it
*Can't be used on the floor
*Takes up a hand slot during use

Buffs:
*Don't have to fiddle with a shitty drop down if you use it in a crowded area.

---
Easily could make a generic and have it apply to flesh to stone as well, would probably have to be a child of a gun because flesh to stone is actually ranged touch (you can be two tiles away). Could even be expanded to fireball, but I kind of love the shitty use mechanics of fireball.

Guncode sucks, probably will just nerf the range of flesh to stone to melee too, as it was never used much.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:20 pm #103700

still not a fan of gibbing but it's more reasonable at least.
i'm mostly in favor of killing the cancerous ei nath + mm "lol no fun 4 u" combo, which is now still an issue.
a lot of other things also need rebalancing to be better. i don't think wizard should be about putting as many people out of the round as possible without them being able to do anything about it, that's just shitty.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:30 pm #103701

Then how else should a 1 vs 60 round play out?

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:32 pm #103702

I wish wizards role was to create chaos rather than defeat 60 people vs themselves. All this results in is pain when I lose in a completely uncontrollable way.

- Make it so everyone becomes a survivor once wizard is on the station so fun isn't restricted to 1 single overpowered player.

This change alone would make wizard rounds enjoyable for me

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:34 pm #103703

The only unfun thing about ei nath was being able to use it while tazed and on the ground.

Atticat wrote:I wish wizards role was to create chaos rather than defeat 60 people vs themselves.

You mean they didn't do that already?

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:36 pm #103705

They do, but plenty of other antags create chaos without being utterly boring and unfair to fight against. Specifically, the wizard has a couple of spells discussed in this thread that have little to no counterplay; the obvious reason is because unlike other antags they are the sole antag. Making everybody a survivor ameliorates this issues

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:41 pm #103706

magic missile has no counterplay
repulse has no counterplay
lich is OP as fuck
staff of animation is bitched about as being too strong
ethereal jaunt is OP

This is all just bitching about the wizard concept in general.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:42 pm #103707

The counterplay to literally every wizard spell except teleport is to swarm him. Thats why the spells have a cooldown.

You or the guy next to you is going to die, tough luck.

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:46 pm #103710

Yes indeed I believe the wizard concept is broken. Everybody vs 1 guy results in extremely boring gameplay. Wizard should kill people indirectly through causing survivormode and making the station dangerous rather than soloing everybody. Dropping everything you were doing to swarm the extremely overpowered wizard is not fun in any way for myself, others seem to disagree however.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:48 pm #103711

So you want the wizard to exist solely to just reroll the gamemode into mini-rev/gang all the time. Gotcha.

Or you know, that's why this is a different gamemode from the rest. Just kill yourself when you hear someone scream WIZARRDD like Robustin claimed he would last year.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:50 pm #103713

A better nerf would be to increase the cooldown to 75 or 90

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:52 pm #103714

You're kinda hostile on the forums saegrimr is there anything you'd like to share with us?

Just because something is different does not make it better. And by the way, there are no rounds where everybody gets to be the traitor and all-survivor wizard rounds would most certainly be different from rev and gang

Durkel · Post by **Durkel** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:55 pm #103715

The wizard needs more offensive spells or the one we have now need some buffs. Ei nath is bullshit I agree, but the average player has no chance with fireball and lightning bolt. Hell, I've been playing five years and I'm still worried whenever I cast fireball that it will get caught on some random shit and kill me. The problem I see is that fireball,lightning bolt,mutate all have some sort of drawback to them, and aren't nearly as effective as a one click gib.

The wizard can already create multiple antags via soul belt,necromantic stone,and animated statues. so if the wizard chooses to try and 1v60 the station then have at it, but don't complain when you get robusted. And to the guy vouching for summon x, No.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:59 pm #103716

Atticat wrote:You're kinda hostile on the forums saegrimr is there anything you'd like to share with us?

Just because something is different does not make it better. And by the way, there are no rounds where everybody gets to be the traitor and all-survivor wizard rounds would most certainly be different from rev and gang ;)

I'm sorry I didn't sugarcoat it for the special needs child. I'm sorry you want people to cater to your specific whims because YOU aren't having fun with one specific game mode, maybe you should --

Primary Policies
3. You are playing a game where you are not fully in control of everything. You will be put into situations beyond your control, which will result in some rounds being ruined for you. Man up and deal with it.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:03 pm #103717

For once saegrimr is right. I think atticat wants to be able to 1v1 a wizard and is upset they can't.

Ei nath is fine and the MM+Ei nath combo is fine. The cooldowns are in place for a reason, not to mention he has to fight 50+ people by himself. While constantly having to look out for some faggot with a syringe gun or a scientist with a bomb on him.

Also good job coding in anger miauw62.

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:24 pm #103722

Hmm, I think there is misunderstanding. As I said before, I believe the entire concept of a wizard is broken. I'm not asking for an antag to be defanged because "I'm upset that I got robusted". I am saying that the concept of a round being based entirely around 60 vs 1 overpowered antag is unfun to play and isn't taking advantage of its potential. If you disagree that is your opinion and that's fine and I'd love to hear why!

But I would hate to see people disregard my points under the erroneous assumption that I'm mad a wizard killed me. I afk most wizard rounds to be honest because it isn't fun for me; I haven't been killed by a wizard in a long time to the best of my memory. When there's a wizard you know everything you're currently doing is for naught because the round's over once they die. When I've been survivor I had plenty of fun and didn't feel forced into valid hunting the wizard to enjoy the round. Saegrimr you definitely have some sort of unresolved issues though and it's a shame that you have to spread your poisonous attitude into constructive discussions.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:28 pm #103723

The summon spells were suppose to cause chaos among the crew but they got changed. They were pretty fun but I think the wizard should have a choice of being a superpowers antag or causing chaos among the crew.

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:31 pm #103724

I would actually have no problems with an overpowered antag if survivor was guarenteed to the crew, because then I could attempt to avoid the wizard and do fun antag things. I just don't find combating a wizard interesting. I'm interested in hearing from people who do, however.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:35 pm

Atticat wrote:I would actually have no problems with an overpowered antag if survivor was guarenteed to the crew, because then I could attempt to avoid the wizard and do fun antag things. I just don't find combating a wizard interesting. I'm interested in hearing from people who do, however.

There's a gamemode where everyone's an armed antag.

It's called "Highlander".

It's fun once every five million years, usually when people have been ragging on the admins to give them an event and the admins are sick of it. If they're feeling extra-nice, they'll activate respawn.

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:42 pm #103731

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
Atticat wrote:I would actually have no problems with an overpowered antag if survivor was guarenteed to the crew, because then I could attempt to avoid the wizard and do fun antag things. I just don't find combating a wizard interesting. I'm interested in hearing from people who do, however.
There's a gamemode where everyone's an armed antag.

It's called "Highlander".

It's fun once every five million years, usually when people have been ragging on the admins to give them an event and the admins are sick of it. If they're feeling extra-nice, they'll activate respawn.

Yeah but highlander has almost nothing to do with what I'm referring to (aside from the all-antag) and isn't an actual gamemode in rotation. I've played highlander a bunch and it's completely different than what I'm suggesting. In highlander everybody gets a sword and all-access and stabs eachother mindlessly rather than surviving a chaotic station using your job's tools and ingenuity. For the record I really don't enjoy highlander at all, but I had a lot of fun in high-survivor population wizard rounds.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:45 pm #103733

So the point is you dislike wizard and instead want to just shoot your coworker with spawned guns every round.

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:55 pm #103738

I'd prefer to struggle for survival in an increasingly dangerous station with antag freedoms and no spawned energy guns if at all possible.

I would also like to point out that wizard rounds aren't every round saegrimr. In fact, I'd like wizard to be a minority of rounds. I'd also like to hear counter-arguments and other people's ideas and opinions about the fun of combating a wizard.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:05 pm #103741

So the point is you dislike wizard and instead want to just shoot your coworker with spawned guns instead of participating in wizardhunt.

You want to go shoot up the chef during Nuke Ops too?

Eaglendia · Post by **Eaglendia** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:37 pm #103762

Just balance EI NATH around gibbing anyone you have aggressive grabbed. Fuck, isn't the spell called Shocking Grasp? I don't see what harm actually having to grasp them would do. You'd still be able to MM-Nath single targets, but you'd actually have to do something to get that sweet kill instead of just standing next to them for a tick, and it'd be a little harder to do under duress without breaking the spell itself or severely changing its function.

Spoiler:

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:33 pm #103769

Eaglendia wrote:Just balance EI NATH around gibbing anyone you have aggressive grabbed. Fuck, isn't the spell called Shocking Grasp? I don't see what harm actually having to grasp them would do. You'd still be able to MM-Nath single targets, but you'd actually have to do something to get that sweet kill instead of just standing next to them for a tick, and it'd be a little harder to do under duress without breaking the spell itself or severely changing its function.

Spoiler:
plus then the truly robust could EI NATH two people at once to be ABSOLUTELY INSANE

Literally this.

if the wizbiz had to grab a target to be able to gib them, they would no longer be able to do their bullshit gib while stunned, or gib while running down the corridor shit.
They would still be able to stun your nerd ass and gib you, but that's ok.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:47 pm #103775

Oh, then the only viable use of ei nath is if it's combo'd with MM, pretty much the lamest combo ever.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:53 pm #103787

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10583

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:20 am #103793

I see nothing wrong with Incoming's PR, plus the glowing hand sprite mitebcool.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:29 am #103799

Ikarrus wrote:Oh, then the only viable use of ei nath is if it's combo'd with MM, pretty much the lamest combo ever.

Or you could fireball them then gib while they're stunned.
Or hulk punch them.
Or Knockback.
EMP will let you stun borgs (or canyou not grab them anymore?)
Does lightning bolt still stun?

Hell, just being ROBUST MAN WRASSLER and going at it will still work. It just means you can't zoom down a corridor an ei-nath someone as you go past them, or get stunned and ei-nath when they try kill/strip/cuff you.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:49 am #103827

Incoming wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10583

+1. The drop down menu is hell

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:34 am #103875

The Wizard's meant to be overpowered because its one person versus a entire crew.

We've never had these problems with Wizard before but NOW we HAVE to nerf these overpowered abilities?

I checked the stats page, and sadly its near impossible to discern Wizard stats but the best I can find is a 25% win rate for objectives.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:46 am #103883

Steelpoint wrote:The Wizard's meant to be overpowered because its one person versus a entire crew.

We've never had these problems with Wizard before but NOW we HAVE to nerf these overpowered abilities?

I checked the stats page, and sadly its near impossible to discern Wizard stats but the best I can find is a 25% win rate for objectives.

Agreed. I looked at Feedback after a good couple weeks break, and all I see is 'nerf X, nerf Y'. It's really disappointing, I don't really know what I expected to come from that lethality poll.

Incomptinence · Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:28 am

How about a corpse disposal spell that turns the dead into really small bombs or soft removal that makes them zombie husks? Not that ei nath was perfect but corpse removal is vital in paprika's stupid defibrillator-land. It has almost gotten to the point where you can beat yourself to death in front of a medic then he mindlessly zaps you four times.

Hell wizard spells could use a choices increase and cost re-balancing too many things costing the exact same amount of resources taking utility or just not following the holy quadrilogy of Jaunt (only the most suicidal skip jaunt), blink (you can skip it but it is like butter to the bread of jaunt), magic missile and ei nath hits you HARD. Sure there is other broken stuff like staff of animation but the cookie cutter can just plonk them in their number 5 slot.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:43 am #103902

Why do we need to complicate this?

I'm just going to copy+paste my reply in the PR here.

If there's a clear and effective counterplay to any tactic a wizard chose's then wizards will simply fail.

A very good player who is a wizard is almost impossible to stop, irrespective if they are using disintegrate or fireball or whatever other spell. Wizard's fail because either the player makes a miscalculation and screws up or another very good player outplays them, usually involving powerful equipment like bombs or acid.

If this change goes through, then it will change almost nothing balance wise because you fail to understand how wizard's win. They win by being good players.

All this does is kill off a iconic ability because your angry over a some bad rounds with a good wizard player.

Nothing will change for good wizard players because a good wizard player will make sure genetics is never allowed to clone the dead for example.

This change really only punishes bad wizard players since they are not competent enough to disable genetics.

BUT! This is really just buffing the damn ability. If I want to kill the Captain to steal his medal I have to kill him without using disintegrate, but with this change I can now do that freely because now he won't be gibbed.

Again, this is a massive buff to the ability far more than any nerf, because the nerf only affects bad players.

rockpecker · Post by **rockpecker** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:35 pm #103979

Incomptinence wrote:How about a corpse disposal spell that turns the dead into really small bombs or soft removal that makes them zombie husks? Not that ei nath was perfect but corpse removal is vital in paprika's stupid defibrillator-land.

The defibrillator is certainly fucking stupid, no argument there.

However, if wizards have an "instant kill you" spell PLUS a "dispose of body" spell, then that's equivalent to EI NATH except that: (1) they can loot the body in between, and more importantly (2) they have a choice about destroying the body, which means every time they do it the victim is going to bitch to admins about being "removed from the round", and they'll start a damn federal investigation about whether it was really truly necessary for the wizard to gib them after killing them.

No. Disintegrating people should have the natural consequence that they don't come back to life, and the slight drawback that you don't get to steal their stuff also.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:37 pm #103980

That's actually a big drawback because if the guy your attacking is holding a objective you'll have to find another method of subduing them, such as the Captain's medal or a Hypospray.

This PR means you can freely kill them to get what you want.

callanrockslol · Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:10 am

I honestly don't see why disintegrate doesn't just destroy your body and not all your clothes and items.

ThatSlyFox wrote:
Incoming wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10583
+1. The drop down menu is hell

Do it with every spell that requires a target or goes in a direction I would be so happy.

Also

ITT: People bitching that an antag that has to fight 60 people and usually looses is too powerful. Have you tried powergaming it yet? Its the best antag for it because you get to see if you have gotten gud.