Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

For feedback on the game code and design. Feedback on server rules and playstyle belong in Policy Discussion.

Moderators: MisterPerson, Code Maintainers

User avatar
Oldman Robustin
 
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Oldman Robustin » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:19 pm #105564

TL;DR Version: The players make a push for a modest traitor change and Cheridan closes the PR within 4 hours despite a majority of comments supporting it both on the forums and on github. While this thread does include discussion of the proposed traitor changes, it's primarily as a background for discussing Coderbus behavior and the control of game balance.

In my last coderbus reform thread one of the oft-repeated sentiments from Goof and others was that I should get more involved on Github if I wanted to have my voice heard. There was an insistence that comments and changes that I propose would be taken seriously and were my best choice for influencing the direction of changes in this game.

Traitors have been suffering for a long time. Last year I made multiple posts lamenting their state and people agreed that there was a fundamental problem back then too:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1308

The consensus hasn't changed in a year. People added some of their new items like Syndie Radio but nothing changed. Nobody buys the radio. In fact the biggest change to traitor since my last thread on the issue was SoS HAD THE FUCKING TRAITOR RATIO LOWERED SO TRAITORS WERE EVEN MORE DOMINATED.

Clearly things are not going in a good direction for traitor. We had an unprecedented COMPLETE REMOVAL of Changelings Mode because of how impotent, useless, and antag-free these rounds were. Lings, who had been robbed of the tool they had previously used to kill people, had generally resorted to troll tactics because actually killing someone was just a stupid absurd risk that was more likely to get you stuffed in a gibber than actually killing crew. Traitors are in a very similar spot right now. Either you take a GUN + Emag/Implants/Thermals/Ammo or you have to rely on station equipment (toxins, singularity, atmos) to kill the station for you. The "needs more lethality" poll and other threads on related topics like MULLIGAN (which only spawns traitorling) are a wide consensus that traitors cannot do their job effectively right now. Too many traitor rounds feel like extended because traitors simply cannot stand on their own two legs to antagonize the crew. Even then guns have limited ammo and even the players who do choose to be hostile and use guns have to stop after a few kills because they run dry and any further murder attempts are just going to involve a lot of screaming and location shouting that inevitably gets you caught and permad/killed... so you just go into hibernation and stop antagonizing, at which point the round becomes extended.

There seems to be a lot of consensus that traitors need help. Yet even the most simple straightforward changes get a few voices of resistance, BUT WHEN WE ADD SYNDICATE FACTIONS WE WON'T NEED THIS....

OH JUST WAIT UNTIL AI NERFS, THAT WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM...

NO WAIT UNTIL THEY ADD THE NEW SYNDIE FEDORA, THAT WILL SOLVE ALL THEIR WOES....

All these alternatives that are probably never going to happen, yet everyone's dream of a perfect plan is cockblocking a very simple, straightforward addition that traitors desperately need.



Which brings me to the case-in-chief. After enough rabbling on Feedback Forums, Steelpoint makes a PR request based exactly on what I recently proposed in a Feedback Thread:


viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4208

Within 4 hours with only one serious comment opposed the change (and one idiotic comment about someone using dual cranked-ebows to go on a murderspree, I thought shitposting wasn't allowed on github?), Cheridan closes the thread with two words. Steelpoint had proposed 40TC with a number of other rebalanced costs back in June and it was shutdown with Cheridan reaching the following conclusion back then:

"We don't need sweeping changes to what people often refer to as our only good game mode."

The fact that he still refers to traitor as "OUR ONLY GOOD GAME MODE" despite constantly complaints about the fact that traitors cannot do their job anymore, mulligan is trash because traitors just turn a round into extended, there's no lethality in traitor rounds anymore, etc. is just laughable. Right now with Lings gone, traitors/DA fill the niche of allowing for mindless destruction. There is very little redeeming about traitors beyond filling that niche, nothing about the syndicate or their equipment really give us a compelling traitor experience, if you want to impact the round seriously as a traitor then you fucking need to use the shit that's available to ALL antags (toxins bombs, singularity, atmos).

This is the same guy who railed against an overwhelming majority asking for the removal of locked hardsuits and return of explosive implants on operatives with the following logic:

http://www.singulo.io/tg/src/1437341348724.png

So here I am. Cheridan has absolute control of Github, Feedback is just a means to an end of affecting Github decisions, GENERAL is the last resort for the average player to come and try to get Cheridan to chill the fuck out and let the players propose something. I intended for the TC increase to be an experiment, so see if +5-10 TC would be enough to make traitors feel like they're fun to play again and effective enough to encourage traitors both new and old to actually do traitorous shit. Sadly, we can't even discuss the proposal to such an experiment without being immediately shut down. We endured Morphine Blob for months, slaughter demons remain in their hilariously broken forms, yet the Headcoder is convinced that a modest experiement with improving traitors is somehow too dangerous to even allow it to be discussed.

What a joke.
Last edited by Oldman Robustin on Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image



CPTANT
 
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby CPTANT » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:39 pm #105566

I agree with everything said above.


I do not think Cheridan is capable of making the decisions necessary to bring the game forward.

User avatar
Cheridan
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:04 am
Byond Username: Cheridan

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Cheridan » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:45 pm #105568

wow you sure do say a lot of things
Image


/tg/station spriter, admin, and headcoder. Feel free to contact me via PM with questions, concerns, or requests.

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby oranges » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:47 pm #105569

Oldman Dezzmont

edit:This is actually an unfair comparison because robustin at least included a TL;DR
Last edited by oranges on Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image

Cik
 
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:24 pm
Byond Username: Cik

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Cik » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:48 pm #105570

paprika alt spotted

Scott
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
Byond Username: Xxnoob
Github Username: xxalpha

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Scott » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:49 pm #105572

You're acting like me saying syndicate factions are a better solution got the PR closed. I don't have that kind of power, old man. The PR got closed because of some drama.

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby oranges » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:51 pm #105573

Anyway, simply throwing more TC at traitors is not a fix, it's just power creep, modify item costs and add new items.
Image

Cik
 
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:24 pm
Byond Username: Cik

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Cik » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:03 pm #105577

if the problem is that traitors are not powerful enough, i think making them more powerful is a reasonable solution

i guess technically it is power creep but what's the issue

User avatar
Cheridan
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:04 am
Byond Username: Cheridan

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Cheridan » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:07 pm #105579

oranges wrote:Anyway, simply throwing more TC at traitors is not a fix, it's just power creep, modify item costs and add new items.


This was exactly what I was advocating, and for the same reasons. I'd be fine with this, and Oldman would know this if he actually tried communicating instead of being as loud and obnoxious a shit as possible by getting huffy and making gigantic shit-stir threads. OOPS.

Codewise: If some items need to be cheaper then just change the price. It's functionally the same but leads to fewer edge cases. The original PR had a slip that was caught by a commenter, where you would have been able to buy multiple surplus crates. It's just more possible edge cases.

Designwise: What exactly happened to make traitors so "weak" that they need TC thrown at them? Because the only power reductions that come to mind are Parapen+C4 which was garbage and didn't add enjoyment for anyone, and the ebow crank thing which is kind of annoying but really shouldn't be enough to RUIN TRAITOR FOREVER.

The biggest problem for traitors have been the quality-of-life shit that other jobs have gotten, like the numerous AI buffs that happened over time, SecHUDs, etc. But that happened over time.
Which is exactly why I said Traitor doesn't need sweeping kneejerk changes like the ones proposed. Miauw has already addressed a lot of the AI problems in an update.

Is this even a problem? I don't think it is, last time I played I saw a traitor whose goal was to hunt Sec, he subtly killed ~10 officers (HoP was opening more slots) before finally getting cornered and taken down.
Image


/tg/station spriter, admin, and headcoder. Feel free to contact me via PM with questions, concerns, or requests.

User avatar
Falamazeer
 
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:05 am
Byond Username: Wootanon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Falamazeer » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:11 pm #105581

I agree with the sentiment as described by oldman robustin, particularly the criticisms of cheridans recent close off of feedback through this and other topics of discussion, got no problems with him personally, just don't like the approach he's taking, though lines like his first in this thread not actually adressing it, are rapidly painting a very paprika uhangi like picture in my mind, Even more so with the second, where he shits on robustin for shit stirring threads that only happen after being ignored in politer venues, Don't make them necessary to illicit a reasoned answer, and I'll agree with you when you say such thing.

And it doesn't matter if it's power creep, do it for now, then readjust when new items and features are added, this is a hotfix for the multiple nerfs that makes traitor less exciting, Your story about the traitor tanking security changes nothing, security needs help too, another topic you ignore unless someone shits a brick and throws it through your window
Ham Sammich, beating a dead horse since 2010.
NikNakFlak wrote:....It's true...that is why I removed my forum avatar

lumipharon wrote:ass parasite was pretty meh when I tried it.

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby oranges » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:13 pm #105583

Yeah great idea, lets buff both departments so we end up in the exact same place.

Great, nice memes
Image

User avatar
Takeguru
 
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 5:20 pm
Byond Username: TakeGuru

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Takeguru » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:17 pm #105584

Right now, it's hard to make an enjoyable round as a traitor.

The AI either catches on quick and you have an omnipresent validhunting machine on your ass or you go the boring route of just playing the "steal a tank of plasma and escape" objectives without any conflict.

Starting with 30 TC would help to remedy this.

It's a band-aid, really, and an easy one to pull off if it doesn't work as planned.
Image

User avatar
Mister_Doc
 
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:29 am
Byond Username: Mister_Doc

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Mister_Doc » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:17 pm #105585

A traitor's quality of life seems to hinge a lot on command/sec's competence or lack thereof.
Matthew Rockatansky: Shitsec extraordinaire
Vladek Sapowski: Trust me, I'm an engineer

User avatar
Falamazeer
 
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:05 am
Byond Username: Wootanon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Falamazeer » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:20 pm #105586

Let's nerf both parties instead

I propose we remove the deadliest staples of traitorling, C4 sleepy pen ebow, ling sting, then, fuck the taser firing time, distance, and ammo, followed shortly by a whacking the armor in half.

You see how silly you sound? The only power creep I recognise is the twenty minute mark in every round where all that sweet inter-departmental cooperation kicks in, and the botanist has super plants, robotics has mechs that walk through walls, and the geneticist is literately god, and science passes security in every important way but with bombs too, and security still has what it started with.

Both should have risen, sec and traitors instead of both lowering.
Ham Sammich, beating a dead horse since 2010.
NikNakFlak wrote:....It's true...that is why I removed my forum avatar

lumipharon wrote:ass parasite was pretty meh when I tried it.

User avatar
lumipharon
 
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:40 am
Byond Username: Lumipharon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby lumipharon » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:23 pm #105587

Can we just like, run the game for a week with no AI what so ever (not even constructable)?

Seriously, AI is the biggest antag cockblocker 9000. It would be interesting to see how it played out.
Traitors can kill people damn effectively, and do a lot of interesting shit. When there isn't an AI that can track his exact location, inform sec and lockdown the area in 5 seconds flat.

User avatar
Oldman Robustin
 
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Oldman Robustin » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:25 pm #105589

oranges wrote:Anyway, simply throwing more TC at traitors is not a fix, it's just power creep, modify item costs and add new items.


That's been the game plan for the last two years. It's not working. Each individual change gets picked apart. Even people I truly respect like Kor say stupid stuff like "WHAT IF THEY GET A GUN, A SWORD, AND ADRENALS?!" (aka a shittier version of the average cargo ling). People don't seem to have a firm grasp on what makes something too strong or too weak.

You also can't really complain about power creep when the overwhelming consensus from the oldest and most experienced players is that hugbox creep is the issue we're grappling with right now. So many small nerfs to lethality that it's becoming more and more absurdly hard to take someone out of the round (even aside from bringing them back in another form aka golems and positrons). Since my last complaint about weak traitors a year ago, we've actually REDUCED the traitor ratio so that they're even weaker now (and more suited to being buffed than ever).

You can't call counteracting all the traitor nerfs and AI/Sec buffs over the years "power creep" for traitors. And if it, holy shit there's nothing that's ever been easier to revert, everything about this has been pitched as an experiment to help traitors while all the glorious amazing wonderful new traitor items/changes/revamps people keep mentioning are a pipe dream.

But this thread is mostly about an extremely premature snuffing out of this debate on Github with little/no real justification. I'll be disappointed if traitors don't get some serious love, but I'm infinitely more disappointed by the way it's been handled.
Image

onleavedontatme
 
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
Byond Username: KorPhaeron

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby onleavedontatme » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:29 pm #105590

I'd love to do no AI. There's a config option for it so I'll at least force it a few times late night.

However even without an AI you still run into the problem that there is literally nowhere to hide or lose people on station. Maint is all more or less straight lines with a couple "hidden" rooms.

Sure the AI spots you in the first place but its the swarm of redshirts in maint (or validhunting grey shirts) that converge on you afterwards.

But yeah I'd be up for some AI free nights.

User avatar
Falamazeer
 
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:05 am
Byond Username: Wootanon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Falamazeer » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:33 pm #105592

How is giving traitors more TC to try and boost their usefullness to push the round along a knee jerk reaction.
But removing the AI rather than nerfing the bits that make them insufferable cunts for antags is not?
Ham Sammich, beating a dead horse since 2010.
NikNakFlak wrote:....It's true...that is why I removed my forum avatar

lumipharon wrote:ass parasite was pretty meh when I tried it.

Scott
Github User
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:50 pm
Byond Username: Xxnoob
Github Username: xxalpha

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Scott » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:36 pm #105595

No to removing AI outright.

User avatar
Cheridan
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:04 am
Byond Username: Cheridan

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Cheridan » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:37 pm #105596

Takeguru wrote:Right now, it's hard to make an enjoyable round as a traitor.

The AI either catches on quick and you have an omnipresent validhunting machine on your ass or you go the boring route of just playing the "steal a tank of plasma and escape" objectives without any conflict.

Starting with 30 TC would help to remedy this.


Lol it won't remedy anything, it just means you get to buy more ammo for your murderbone, or you still go the boring (optimial) route of doing your objective without any conflict and have some spare TC left over.
Image


/tg/station spriter, admin, and headcoder. Feel free to contact me via PM with questions, concerns, or requests.

User avatar
lumipharon
 
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:40 am
Byond Username: Lumipharon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby lumipharon » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:39 pm #105597

Kor wrote:I'd love to do no AI. There's a config option for it so I'll at least force it a few times late night.

However even without an AI you still run into the problem that there is literally nowhere to hide or lose people on station. Maint is all more or less straight lines with a couple "hidden" rooms.

Sure the AI spots you in the first place but its the swarm of redshirts in maint (or validhunting grey shirts) that converge on you afterwards.

But yeah I'd be up for some AI free nights.


I and many others suggested a situation where both grey shirts AND normal sec don't have access to maint (in fact, we had it for a while, and it was great). Making maint much more useful (and quiet), and making syndie ID's far more useful (they get maint access by default).
Of course babbies cried that they would have nothing to do as JOBLESS FUCKING ASSISTANTS, because asking the HoP for maint access is too hard for most people.
Last edited by lumipharon on Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

CPTANT
 
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
Byond Username: CPTANT

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby CPTANT » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:41 pm #105599

Cheridan wrote:
oranges wrote:Anyway, simply throwing more TC at traitors is not a fix, it's just power creep, modify item costs and add new items.


This was exactly what I was advocating, and for the same reasons. I'd be fine with this, and Oldman would know this if he actually tried communicating instead of being as loud and obnoxious a shit as possible by getting huffy and making gigantic shit-stir threads. OOPS.



How can you say this after single handedly cutting off the debate within 4 hours. Can you seriously not see that you are the one who cut of the debate in the first place.

User avatar
Cheridan
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:04 am
Byond Username: Cheridan

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Cheridan » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:45 pm #105603

Falamazeer wrote:How is giving traitors more TC to try and boost their usefullness to push the round along a knee jerk reaction.


"Push the round along", what the hell does that even mean? People love meme terms like this, especially "spice up the round" which is an old favorite but it doesn't actually convey anything. You want them to make the round interesting or run gimmicks or something? Traitors on /tg/station are generally either one of two types, Silently Completes Objective or New High Score Killcount Attempt. If you want more of the latter, then just say it. Because 90% people aren't going to spend these magic fixall bonus 10 TCs doing something cool or memorable, sorry.

CPTANT wrote:How can you say this after single handedly cutting off the debate within 4 hours. Can you seriously not see that you are the one who cut of the debate in the first place.

It wasn't a debate, it was a decision that was already made in a previous PR weeks earlier.
Image


/tg/station spriter, admin, and headcoder. Feel free to contact me via PM with questions, concerns, or requests.

User avatar
Falamazeer
 
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:05 am
Byond Username: Wootanon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Falamazeer » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:57 pm #105615

Cheridan wrote:
Falamazeer wrote:How is giving traitors more TC to try and boost their usefullness to push the round along a knee jerk reaction.


"Push the round along", what the hell does that even mean? People love meme terms like this, especially "spice up the round" which is an old favorite but it doesn't actually convey anything. You want them to make the round interesting or run gimmicks or something? Traitors on /tg/station are generally either one of two types, Silently Completes Objective or New High Score Killcount Attempt. If you want more of the latter, then just say it. Because 90% people aren't going to spend these magic fixall bonus 10 TCs doing something cool or memorable, sorry.

Forcing a shuttle call for example, right now, traitors have to choose between the gear they need to get their objective done be it steal or kill, or something big and good to force the round to a close. and that's a big reason why they flop in my opinion. because short of the singularity, bombs, or some damn good diseases, it's hard to leave, and any one of those three can easily take you out with them unless you're the cause and knew to take steps against such a thing.

And that part is getting worse with the bob the builder types recalling the shuttle constantly, and mulligan on top of that, or you stay quiet so long buttons get pressed and you die like everyone else when the meth head demon lich strikes.

Push the round along is not spice things up, It means move the round closer to a final resolution, something that traitors desperately lack, which has lead to mulligan in the first place, which is based on the flawed idea that the fix is to make a safety net when traitors fail, rather than try to solve the problem of consistent traitor failure.
Cheridan wrote:
CPTANT wrote:How can you say this after single handedly cutting off the debate within 4 hours. Can you seriously not see that you are the one who cut of the debate in the first place.

It wasn't a debate, it was a decision that was already made in a previous PR weeks earlier.

One that by all evidence people still had plenty of opinions to air on. My proof, this thread.
Ham Sammich, beating a dead horse since 2010.
NikNakFlak wrote:....It's true...that is why I removed my forum avatar

lumipharon wrote:ass parasite was pretty meh when I tried it.

User avatar
Oldman Robustin
 
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Oldman Robustin » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:58 pm #105616

Cheridan wrote:
oranges wrote:Anyway, simply throwing more TC at traitors is not a fix, it's just power creep, modify item costs and add new items.


This was exactly what I was advocating, and for the same reasons. I'd be fine with this, and Oldman would know this if he actually tried communicating instead of being as loud and obnoxious a shit as possible by getting huffy and making gigantic shit-stir threads. OOPS.

Codewise: If some items need to be cheaper then just change the price. It's functionally the same but leads to fewer edge cases. The original PR had a slip that was caught by a commenter, where you would have been able to buy multiple surplus crates. It's just more possible edge cases.

Designwise: What exactly happened to make traitors so "weak" that they need TC thrown at them? Because the only power reductions that come to mind are Parapen+C4 which was garbage and didn't add enjoyment for anyone, and the ebow crank thing which is kind of annoying but really shouldn't be enough to RUIN TRAITOR FOREVER.

The biggest problem for traitors have been the quality-of-life shit that other jobs have gotten, like the numerous AI buffs that happened over time, SecHUDs, etc. But that happened over time.
Which is exactly why I said Traitor doesn't need sweeping kneejerk changes like the ones proposed. Miauw has already addressed a lot of the AI problems in an update.

Is this even a problem? I don't think it is, last time I played I saw a traitor whose goal was to hunt Sec, he subtly killed ~10 officers (HoP was opening more slots) before finally getting cornered and taken down.


There arguments would all be really compelling if there was even a scintilla of truth behind them.

Let's look at what you said a year ago when I pushed for traitor changes:

"Traitor doesn't need an "overhaul", it needs tweaks, which is what the OP's suggestion is."

I was the OP in that thread, we tried tweaks, we got tweaks. Then traitor ratios were reduced and the tiny benefit of tweaking a few non-combat items was massively overshadowed by cutting the number of traitors (it should be obvious to anyone that MORE traitors is generally better for the individual traitor because it distracts the AI and splits up security so that you can actually start doing shit on camera and/or be spotted doing traitor shit and not have AI/Borgs/5 officers descend on your location). That's been our going mentality for too long and all we've gotten are 1,000,000 hypothetical new items, changes, and revamps that haven't even come close to becoming a reality and would have far more implications for balance than a +5-10TC experiment.

The beauty of this is its just something we can TRY for a while instead of having you pretend you have a better understanding of traitor balance or that we're actually anywhere near some major changes that will make traitors viable for the average player. Ok lets say Miauw gets a big AI revamp in and traitors can now do shit on camera again, revert the TC change or reduce it, simple. The dream of the more perfect traitor improvements is killing the game mode when a far simpler but less perfect proposal exists.

But of all the shitty shit you've shat today, this is the most hilarious:

Cheridan wrote:This was exactly what I was advocating, and for the same reasons. I'd be fine with this, and Oldman would know this if he actually tried communicating instead of being as loud and obnoxious a shit as possible by getting huffy and making gigantic shit-stir threads. OOPS.


Ok. Communicating. I've already written a fucking manifesto on traitors by this point and routinely post 1,000+ extremely detailed comments on Feedback about my view on all aspects of game balance. Meanwhile you stroll into the PR we create and post four words, "you already tried this" before closing it.

Of all the people here who are aggravating the situation by not effectively communicating, I'd say you've got to be near the top of that list and me near the bottom. I've made proposals, I've tried to sell the "doorjack" multiple times on feedback... a traitor item that temporarily unbolts/disables AI control on any door so that "HARM DETECTED" doesn't become the automatic end of every traitor round. I've made countless other suggestions, but I've learned that trying to communicate ideas on Feedback is an exercise in vanity. You might be able to block/revert a horrible change, but god help you if you actually try to persuade someone to do something.

So maybe do some reflecting, open the pull request, and actually come up with something based in fact for opposing this change or shutting it down so quickly.

Cheridan wrote:Lol it won't remedy anything, it just means you get to buy more ammo for your murderbone, or you still go the boring (optimial) route of doing your objective without any conflict and have some spare TC left over.


Ok I'm going to play the role of the average COMPETENT traitor. "Ok I just got a revolver and an emag. I opened botany from maint and quickly sprayed my revolver at the botanist until he died. He was alone and while someone reported the gunshots, I was able to get him off camera into maint before anyone spotted me.

Now this hypothetical traitor, what the fuck are his options for further antagonism. He's got an emag and an empty gun. The emag can fuck with a few people "LOL TURNED UR APC OFF" and mess up the holodeck/beepsky, but at this point you're unarmed and even grabbing an improvised weapon isn't going to give you a chance against any kind of real sec/AI/borg response to your next emag adventure. In this case getting some more revolver ammo is the stepping stone that lets you advance your traitor game. Now that you have more revolver ammo maybe you try to murder an officer and get his taser/baton/ID and escalate your hostility even further, or you can use it murder a head and use their access to pull some even more ostentatious acts of treachery. Anything, ANYTHING, including mindless murderboner, is still better than "WELL I GOT AN EMAG AND A GUN, KILLED MY TARGET BUT NOW I CANT DO SHIT" that leads to pseudo-extended every traitor round as they quickly run out of steam or get robusted for running non-optimal kits/non-optimal strategies. More TC helps mitigate both (non-optimal kits can acquire additional items to make them viable, optimal kits get more ammo/c4/etc. to keep the opportunity for antagonism alive).

Cheridan wrote:People love meme terms like this, especially "spice up the round" which is an old favorite but it doesn't actually convey anything.


Hah, ok, let's follow your advice and stop "murderboning", because that isn't the ultimate vague complaint that doesn't convey anything. People want more lethality, people want more action, people want their round to feel like its not fucking extended, you know what that means Cheridan? Someone is going to have to murder someone even if its not their objective.

Edit: Regarding your "edge cases", if you actually read anything I typed on feedback, I already acknowledged that crates/kits and shit like the singularity beacon should also have their price rebalanced, and perhaps if you left the PR open for more than a fucking afternoon nap we could've added those things.
Image

User avatar
lumipharon
 
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:40 am
Byond Username: Lumipharon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby lumipharon » Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:08 am #105620

I support buffing traitors (fucking seriously, there needs to be more of them), but in that example lets be honest.

A competent traitor will make their own, or use an existing autolathe to make ammo, since buying ammo is EXPENSIVE AS FUCK, and a waste of tc's.
If you get the hidden trash bag, you can store like, FIFTY spare ammo things for the revolver on your belt slot, and proceed to murderbone forever more.

Outside of the revolver though, traitors aren't that deadly (silenced stechkin is a pretty cool weapon, but not great for mass murder).

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby oranges » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:24 am #105658

You want my advice

remove stuns completely
Image

User avatar
MrStonedOne
Host
 
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:56 pm
Byond Username: MrStonedOne
Github Username: MrStonedOne

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby MrStonedOne » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:30 am #105662

sec has maint,

Think that might have something to do with it. They used to not.
Forum/Wiki Administrator, Server host, Database King, Master Coder


MrStonedOne on Reddit(banned), Steam, IRC, Skype Discord.

[10:55 AM] spookydonut: stonedmc is the work of a criminally insane mad genius

User avatar
Ikarrus
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:17 am
Location: Canada
Byond Username: Ikarrus
Github Username: Ikarrus

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Ikarrus » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:32 am #105665

MrStonedOne wrote:sec has maint,

Think that might have something to do with it. They used to not.

I used to get frustrated as fuck with assistants getting maint but not sec.

But we have assistant caps now, so maybe it won't be so bad now.
Former Dev/Headmin
Who is this guy?

User avatar
Falamazeer
 
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:05 am
Byond Username: Wootanon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Falamazeer » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:38 am #105670

The cap MIGHT mitigate that, but my stance has always been if ASSistants get maint then sec should, and remove both or allow both.
I'd have to see it in practice to know though if the cap would change that.
Ham Sammich, beating a dead horse since 2010.
NikNakFlak wrote:....It's true...that is why I removed my forum avatar

lumipharon wrote:ass parasite was pretty meh when I tried it.

User avatar
lumipharon
 
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:40 am
Byond Username: Lumipharon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby lumipharon » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:41 am #105672

Remove for a week ass/sec maint and disable AI - suddenly antags don't get tracked and locked down in 5 seconds, and have a reasonable opportunity to escape sec or would be vigilantees.

User avatar
Ikarrus
 
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:17 am
Location: Canada
Byond Username: Ikarrus
Github Username: Ikarrus

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Ikarrus » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:43 am #105674

lumipharon wrote:Remove for a week ass/sec maint and disable AI - suddenly antags don't get tracked and locked down in 5 seconds, and have a reasonable opportunity to escape sec or would be vigilantees.

I'd like to set a week sometime in the near future to do this.

A pre-announced event week.
Former Dev/Headmin
Who is this guy?

User avatar
Falamazeer
 
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:05 am
Byond Username: Wootanon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Falamazeer » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:44 am #105676

Please feel encouraged by me to do so
Ham Sammich, beating a dead horse since 2010.
NikNakFlak wrote:....It's true...that is why I removed my forum avatar

lumipharon wrote:ass parasite was pretty meh when I tried it.

User avatar
oranges
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:16 pm
Location: #CHATSHITGETBANGED
Byond Username: Optimumtact
Github Username: optimumtact

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby oranges » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:51 am #105680

make sure you announce it pretty clearly
Image

User avatar
Takeguru
 
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 5:20 pm
Byond Username: TakeGuru

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Takeguru » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:59 am #105686

>A week without assmaint

I wouldn't know what to do with myself, because I know cunty HoPs aren't going to hand it out.
Image

User avatar
Falamazeer
 
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:05 am
Byond Username: Wootanon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Falamazeer » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:00 am #105689

I know I won't.
Regular assistants players are not to be trusted.
Ham Sammich, beating a dead horse since 2010.
NikNakFlak wrote:....It's true...that is why I removed my forum avatar

lumipharon wrote:ass parasite was pretty meh when I tried it.

User avatar
Mister_Doc
 
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:29 am
Byond Username: Mister_Doc

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Mister_Doc » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:08 am #105693

Assistants are never up to any good, and I think that goes with the territory of having no defined role. Most of the nonantags I see getting brigged are assistants that broke into someplace and escalated the situation when sec came down.
Matthew Rockatansky: Shitsec extraordinaire
Vladek Sapowski: Trust me, I'm an engineer

User avatar
lumipharon
 
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:40 am
Byond Username: Lumipharon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby lumipharon » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:10 am #105695

The only awful thing about no ass/sec maint, was when you got the chucklefuck hop that made everyone in the queue fill out forms and get stamps and shit for maint.

That said, almost all hop's I remember back then had zero problem giving people maint access, if they could be bothered asking.

User avatar
Takeguru
 
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 5:20 pm
Byond Username: TakeGuru

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Takeguru » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:12 am #105696

You're only judging the role by the offenders.

Most assistants don't cause any problems.

@Lumi
It's different in a situation like this.
It's like, sanctioned HoP grief.

And besides, I'd be irate if I had to go to a HoP every round just for maint.
Too used to just having it.
Image

User avatar
lumipharon
 
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:40 am
Byond Username: Lumipharon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby lumipharon » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:16 am #105700

But you don't even need maint every round. Maybe assistants could like, assist (or get a real job) rather than being maint dwelling hobos.
As for sec, I played purely sec back when we had no round start maint but greyshirts did - we just got round start maint access or dealt with never catching people.

User avatar
Falamazeer
 
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:05 am
Byond Username: Wootanon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Falamazeer » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:17 am #105702

Takeguru wrote:
Most assistants don't cause any problems.

Please make this your signature so people know better than to listen to you.
Ham Sammich, beating a dead horse since 2010.
NikNakFlak wrote:....It's true...that is why I removed my forum avatar

lumipharon wrote:ass parasite was pretty meh when I tried it.

User avatar
Takeguru
 
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 5:20 pm
Byond Username: TakeGuru

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Takeguru » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:23 am #105705

Assisting is just opening yourself to getting fucked with.

I've also played every job to death, it's why I choose the grey jumpsuit when possible.
The lack of responsibility appeals to me.
Image

User avatar
lumipharon
 
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:40 am
Byond Username: Lumipharon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby lumipharon » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:23 am #105706

I also miss rainbow tide.
It worked perfectly in its intended purpose - making individual assistants more easily identifiable, which in turn makes it much harder to greytide.

Dunno why it got turned off.

User avatar
Oldman Robustin
 
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Oldman Robustin » Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:58 am #105708

lumipharon wrote:Remove for a week ass/sec maint and disable AI - suddenly antags don't get tracked and locked down in 5 seconds, and have a reasonable opportunity to escape sec or would be vigilantees.


I'm all for AI gone but murdering assistants for maint. access is something I'm kinda reliant on, otherwise I either have to pester the HoP or track down an atmosian/engi who isn't already in space/maint/engineering.

Sec maint. is iffy too. Obviously it did traitors no favors, but without the AI to open maint. for sec I just foresee either:

1) All sec flood HoP at roundstart or else be useless

and/or

2) So many sec players railing against this change because no doorknob + no maint = difficulty moving around the station.


Either way, I find have no doubt that removing AI would do a lot more to buff traitors (and other antags) than 10 more TC... why is there such an eagerness to doing the more extreme of the two options. My only guess is that the no-AI option doesn't require the approval of certain authoritarian coders and can be done on a round-by-round basis. Either way, any deviation from the status quo is great, but I know flukers, cult, and others are going to flourish wildly without an AI... we'll see if that enhances the sec experience (aka you actually have to solve crimes now, do your own tracking, and interact with crew as opposed to AI just breastfeeding you intel) or degrades it (standing outside science while an obvious murderboner happens inside... waiting for someone to open the damn door for you).

I'm primarily concerned with this becoming another "HEY IVE GOT SO MANY GREAT IDEAS" thread and then in another few months no progress has been made and we're still back at Square 1.
Image

User avatar
lumipharon
 
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:40 am
Byond Username: Lumipharon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby lumipharon » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:15 am #105711

Remember ass and sec maint were disabled for a while, and for a longer while, just sec maint was off.

A syndie ID gives you maint access for 1 (or is it 2?) tc's. And that'sif you can't get the hop to just give it to you.

User avatar
Oldman Robustin
 
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
Byond Username: ForcefulCJS

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Oldman Robustin » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:56 am #105715

lumipharon wrote:Remember ass and sec maint were disabled for a while, and for a longer while, just sec maint was off.

A syndie ID gives you maint access for 1 (or is it 2?) tc's. And that'sif you can't get the hop to just give it to you.


If the Agent ID card gives maint access it reallllly needs to be in the description. Last I checked it had no access but prevented AI tracking and could copy other access if you use it on other ID's.
Image

User avatar
Falamazeer
 
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:05 am
Byond Username: Wootanon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Falamazeer » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:58 am #105717

I think you're both right, it starts with maint, and adds any access you use it on.
Ham Sammich, beating a dead horse since 2010.
NikNakFlak wrote:....It's true...that is why I removed my forum avatar

lumipharon wrote:ass parasite was pretty meh when I tried it.

User avatar
ChangelingRain
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:36 pm
Location: The biggest lake
Byond Username: ChangelingRain
Github Username: ChangelingRain

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby ChangelingRain » Mon Jul 20, 2015 3:59 am #105718

It's why nuke ops have maint access; it has syndicate accesses plus maintenance. The main downside is that it doesn't fit in a PDA.
Plays Joan Lung and various AIs and cyborgs with mythology and magical creature-themed names. Joan on IRC.
earth-clawing illuminati trans girl

User avatar
Falamazeer
 
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:05 am
Byond Username: Wootanon

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby Falamazeer » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:00 am #105719

No PDA? why?

I hope that's an oversight, because damn
Ham Sammich, beating a dead horse since 2010.
NikNakFlak wrote:....It's true...that is why I removed my forum avatar

lumipharon wrote:ass parasite was pretty meh when I tried it.

User avatar
ChangelingRain
Code Maintainer
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:36 pm
Location: The biggest lake
Byond Username: ChangelingRain
Github Username: ChangelingRain

Re: Coderbus Boogaloo Pt. II: Still Shitty

Postby ChangelingRain » Mon Jul 20, 2015 4:12 am #105723

It probably fucks up the anti ai-tracking thing it has and whoever coded it didn't want to deal with it. Probably.
Plays Joan Lung and various AIs and cyborgs with mythology and magical creature-themed names. Joan on IRC.
earth-clawing illuminati trans girl

Next

Return to Coding Feedback

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users