PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Pistol Edition

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What did you think of Pistols during the one day trial?

Abstain
2
4%
They were a positive addition.
14
27%
They made little to no difference to the game.
4
8%
They were a negative addition
29
56%
Other
3
6%
 
Total votes : 52

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PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Pistol Edition

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:10 pm #117398

Link to PR: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/11662

This PR makes multiple changes to the standard and alternative wepaons on offer to security personal, and is based on the large discussion from the thread 'Default Lethal Weapons for Security': viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4472

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There new weapons are now available to security personal to varying degrees.

Weapon Images
Image

Mark 58 Pistol: New standard issue sidearm issued to all security personal replacing the taser. Holds ten rounds per magazine, default ammo is a non-lethal mag with each bullet dealing 60 stamina damage per round. Lethal ammo is located in the armoury with those bullets dealing 25 damage per bullet.

Mark 58 Officer Pistol: Identical to the standard pistol aside from it having a custom wooden grip, issued to the Warden and Head of Security.

WT-550 Automatic Rifle: A high-alert weapon located in the armoury to be deployed in critical and dangerous situations. A PDF with a 20 round magazine, with each bullet dealing 25 damage per bullet. Warden is issued one Auto Rifle at round start.

Z8 Marksman Rifle: Powerful semi-auto weapon issued to the Head of Security. Deals 80 damage per round. But suffers from a slow rate of fire and only having one spare magazine on station.

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Altered Armoury
Image

Main difference is that the bullet proof vests have been moved to the new tac room and have been replaced with three standard Mark 58 Pistols.

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TO-DO
Add new cargo crates for additional ammo and pistols.

Balancing!?!

Refinement.

----

Criticism and suggestions are greatly appreciated. This PR is not finished in terms of weapon damage balance but otherwise is fully ready to go.



Your thoughts?
Last edited by Steelpoint on Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:57 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: PR#11657: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Saegrimr » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:16 pm #117402

One tile wide walkspace when people are in PANIC MODE to suit up for tactical gear?

That's gonna be fucking hilarious.
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Re: PR#11657: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:17 pm #117403

Intentional would you believe.
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Re: PR#11657: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:21 pm #117404

Remind me again why the HOS gets the most powerful gun in the game in addition to his custom taser laser?
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Re: PR#11657: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:22 pm #117405

Its not set in stone, I also have to nerf the Z8 gun since stuttering also seems to stun people.

The HoS gun is really just a Taser with a Laser function, and considering the fact that the HoS is just as vulnerable as a officer (armour wise) I don't think its a massive problem.
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Re: PR#11657: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Tornadium » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:24 pm #117406

Steelpoint wrote:Its not set in stone, I also have to nerf the Z8 gun since stuttering also seems to stun people.

The HoS gun is really just a Taser with a Laser function, and considering the fact that the HoS is just as vulnerable as a officer (armour wise) I don't think its a massive problem.


Plus most of the moron HoS players will walk around with it and get it stolen.

So its no big deal.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Zilenan91 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:31 pm #117409

So are these replacing tasers that officers spawn with? If so, I assume there will still be tasers left in the armory right?
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:33 pm #117410

Three Tasers still spawn in the armoury as normal.
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:37 pm #117413

Steelpoint wrote:Three Tasers still spawn in the armoury as normal.


Not that there's any real use for them other than fighting an ebow-er.

Projectile guns are designed to be more effective than energy guns, that's why bullet armor is so low across the board, and why eshields and eswords don't block them, and why even the non-lethal ones do brute (With the exception of taser slugs, which are pretty much reskinned electrodes)
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:39 pm #117414

I can easily look at buffing the bullet resist on certain antag armour to compensate.

Also there are now five suits of tac armour (bullet proof armour) in the armoury.
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Tornadium » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:43 pm #117415

Could you add an Ammo Press to the Armory that the Warden can use?

For balance purposes make it take 30 seconds to build a magazine or something.

Also just thinking from the other thread, would it be better to spawn each sec officer with a requisition form item that allows them to spawn either the pistol and ammo or the taser?

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:45 pm #117416

Oh cool, so they /entire security force plus change/ is now specially tooled to resist nuke ops from roundstart. Better increase all those syndie machineguns to 60 brute to compensate, then buff the revolver and LMG to make them worth their massive cost.

But then you have the problem that they're crushing regular crew, so the crew needs more access to bullet armor to handle syndies/traitors, but then sec are less effective in rev rounds, so...
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Tornadium » Tue Sep 08, 2015 12:50 pm #117417

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Oh cool, so they /entire security force plus change/ is now specially tooled to resist nuke ops from roundstart. Better increase all those syndie machineguns to 60 brute to compensate, then buff the revolver and LMG to make them worth their massive cost.

But then you have the problem that they're crushing regular crew, so the crew needs more access to bullet armor to handle syndies/traitors, but then sec are less effective in rev rounds, so...


It'll be a hell of a lot more interesting than one op killing all of security with a single magazine.

I would totally agree buff syndie guns to compensate though.

If Security has the time to go gear up in the Armory and then start resisting then the Ops have already fucked up and they should be fighting an uphill battle.

Remember if a single sec officer goes down thats an extremely powerful weapon in the hand of revs, revs win by swarming and playing smart until they can stand on an equal footing. Remember a single syringe and an officer goes down, a stun baton and an officer goes down, slip and an officer goes down.

Antags like rev/cult and crew are not really meant to be on an equal footing/more powerful than security from the get-go. They have to play smart.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Tornadium » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:38 pm #117419

God the github comments are retarded.

I see the comments about coderbus are entirely valid.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby TechnoAlchemist » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:09 pm #117424

This really shouldn't be merged without balance changes for eswords and eshields.

This has also effectively made the ablative vest worthless.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Miauw » Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:43 pm #117426

if you want to make eswords and eshields less useful, maybe you should consider nerfing those instead of murdering the sec meta and the energy gun theme.
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Amelius » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:49 pm #117437

If this is implemented, I demand that eswords be made much cheaper. The only justification for it being 16 TC for a double esword was because you could force every single sec officer into melee combat. Giving standard ballistic weapons to sec makes it a joke weapon worth 6 TC total (same as an emag), at most.

Also > 60 stam damage. > Giving standard-issue ballistic weaponry to security.

Generally OP, given sec can just ask the nice cargo tech for additional ammo or the HoS/warden, whereas tators won't be able to acquire additional ammo. Also, what the fuck is the point of the sketchkin costing 9 TC when you can loot ANY sec officer and get the exact same gun?

Also, this WILL fuck up any semblance of balance we have. Don't say I didn't warn you. With this PR, every sec officer is literally better-armed than any single antagonist in every single way, and actually has a squad of known allies. Enjoy your banal rounds.

FYI ballistic armor is shit across the board because it's the designated antag-ranged-weapon type. Buffing it will just ruin all ballistics for tators and gang members, and buff security even more. You'd have to double traitor TC to make it even relatively even. You're literally proposing to throw out the current balance in lieu of something else without proposing how to fix these problems pre-emptively, or even connecting them to the same PR. The game will literally be unplayable for antagonists with these changes.
Last edited by Amelius on Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Amelius » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:52 pm #117438

Miauw wrote:if you want to make eswords and eshields less useful, maybe you should consider nerfing those instead of murdering the sec meta and the energy gun theme.


> Eswords even borderline useful for 16 TC, forces both parties into melee, can be countered by fucking disarms, makes you a loud walking target, and prevents the purchase of actual useful items (e.g. emag, adrenals).
> Eshields OP for 18 TC and only purchaseable by nuke flops, counterable by ballistics or a single baton strike.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Wyzack » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:53 pm #117442

Parroting what I said in the other thread, give tators new shit to compensate rather than never changing anything for balance
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Tornadium » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:54 pm #117444

Amelius wrote:If this is implemented, I demand that eswords be made much cheaper. The only justification for it being 16 TC for a double esword was because you could force every single sec officer into melee combat. Giving standard ballistic weapons to sec makes it a joke weapon worth 6 TC total (same as an emag), at most.

Also > 60 stam damage. > Giving standard-issue ballistic weaponry to security.

Generally OP, given sec can just ask the nice cargo tech for additional ammo or the HoS/warden, whereas tators won't be able to acquire additional ammo. Also, what the fuck is the point of the sketchkin costing 9 TC when you can loot ANY sec officer and get the exact same gun?

Also, this WILL fuck up any semblance of balance we have. Don't say I didn't warn you. With this PR, every sec officer is literally better-armed than any single antagonist in every single way, and actually has a squad of known allies. Enjoy your banal rounds.

FYI ballistic armor is shit across the board because it's the designated antag-ranged-weapon type. Buffing it will just ruin all ballistics for tators and gang members, and buff security even more.


Gives traitors more options as they no longer need to spend TCs on ballistic weapons because they can be acquired from sec.

Most traitors buy the radio now anyway, they can work together to get ammo pretty damn easily.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Amelius » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:59 pm #117446

Tornadium wrote:
Amelius wrote:If this is implemented, I demand that eswords be made much cheaper. The only justification for it being 16 TC for a double esword was because you could force every single sec officer into melee combat. Giving standard ballistic weapons to sec makes it a joke weapon worth 6 TC total (same as an emag), at most.

Also > 60 stam damage. > Giving standard-issue ballistic weaponry to security.

Generally OP, given sec can just ask the nice cargo tech for additional ammo or the HoS/warden, whereas tators won't be able to acquire additional ammo. Also, what the fuck is the point of the sketchkin costing 9 TC when you can loot ANY sec officer and get the exact same gun?

Also, this WILL fuck up any semblance of balance we have. Don't say I didn't warn you. With this PR, every sec officer is literally better-armed than any single antagonist in every single way, and actually has a squad of known allies. Enjoy your banal rounds.

FYI ballistic armor is shit across the board because it's the designated antag-ranged-weapon type. Buffing it will just ruin all ballistics for tators and gang members, and buff security even more.


Gives traitors more options as they no longer need to spend TCs on ballistic weapons because they can be acquired from sec.

Most traitors buy the radio now anyway, they can work together to get ammo pretty damn easily.


> Severely nerf any sort of antagonist (NOT JUST TRAITORS).
> Don't worry, that just gives them more OPTIONS.
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Holy shit, this forum is garbage. I swear, if this is implemented I'm switching servers, this is the most ill-thought out PR I've seen, and I've seen ALOT of shitty PRs.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Tornadium » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:00 pm #117448

Amelius wrote:
Tornadium wrote:
Amelius wrote:If this is implemented, I demand that eswords be made much cheaper. The only justification for it being 16 TC for a double esword was because you could force every single sec officer into melee combat. Giving standard ballistic weapons to sec makes it a joke weapon worth 6 TC total (same as an emag), at most.

Also > 60 stam damage. > Giving standard-issue ballistic weaponry to security.

Generally OP, given sec can just ask the nice cargo tech for additional ammo or the HoS/warden, whereas tators won't be able to acquire additional ammo. Also, what the fuck is the point of the sketchkin costing 9 TC when you can loot ANY sec officer and get the exact same gun?

Also, this WILL fuck up any semblance of balance we have. Don't say I didn't warn you. With this PR, every sec officer is literally better-armed than any single antagonist in every single way, and actually has a squad of known allies. Enjoy your banal rounds.

FYI ballistic armor is shit across the board because it's the designated antag-ranged-weapon type. Buffing it will just ruin all ballistics for tators and gang members, and buff security even more.


Gives traitors more options as they no longer need to spend TCs on ballistic weapons because they can be acquired from sec.

Most traitors buy the radio now anyway, they can work together to get ammo pretty damn easily.


> Severely nerf any sort of antagonist (NOT JUST TRAITORS).
> Don't worry, that just gives them more OPTIONS.
ARHGIUHREIUGHIUREOIGHRE

Holy shit, this forum is garbage. I swear, if this is implemented I'm switching servers, this is the most ill-thought out PR I've seen, and I've seen ALOT of shitty PRs.


Sec is severely underpowered and shitty vs nearly every antagonist at the moment.

It gives sec more options to at least try to deal with some of the threats and gives Antagonists a new place to acquire equipment. You don't have to spend the 13 TC on a revolver for example.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Amelius » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:07 pm #117451

Tornadium wrote:Sec is severely underpowered and shitty vs nearly every antagonist at the moment.


Do you even play this game? I sit around as nonantag, and more happens due to bored nonantagonists than from actual slings, clings, traitors, wizard (extended: MAGIC EDITION), or cult especially. All the other modes are in an a good place, but those five almost always feel like extended (fortunately, bombs or singuloth mercifully ends the round in tator/ling), and is probably the only major thing that actually occurs). In case you're wondering, given the current rates, that's 53% of all rounds.

So yeah, no.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Tornadium » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:12 pm #117453

Amelius wrote:
Tornadium wrote:Sec is severely underpowered and shitty vs nearly every antagonist at the moment.


Do you even play this game? I sit around as nonantag, and more happens due to bored nonantagonists than from actual slings, clings, traitors, wizard (extended: MAGIC EDITION), or cult especially. All the other modes are in an a good place, but those five almost always feel like extended (fortunately, bombs or singuloth mercifully ends the round in tator/ling), and is probably the only major thing that actually occurs). In case you're wondering, given the current rates, that's 53% of all rounds.

So yeah, no.


Yeah, On sunday night we had all of sec get murderboned by two traitors with revolvers and the round after Emily Ranger was stunned 8 times in a single fight and kept getting back up due to adrenal and killed 3 sec officers in the fight and still got away.

You're exaggerating, Any competent antag can fucking destroy sec, especially gangs/nuke/traitor.

I just emagged myself a nice little path between arrivals, cargo, engineering, to rd/science and just ran around revolvering 15 people before I got bored.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:15 pm #117454

If the PR is merged I'll see how the changes go for a week. After that I'll personally revert/alter things as the community thinks.
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Shaps-cloud » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:21 pm #117455

Security mostly uses lasers, so naturally antags began to get more and more ways to counter lasers.
Now people are thinking that maybe there's too many counters to lasers, so we just decide to swap to ballistics because there's way fewer counters to it?

That's ridiculous, the reason that there are almost no counters to bullets compared to counters to lasers is because very few people actually use bullets. I guarantee you that if we add more ballistic guns to the station, defenses against bullets are going to be buffed over time to the point where bullets and lasers will be pretty much interchangeable, and we'll be right back where we started. If there's an issue where juggernauts are unstoppable against the standard laser rifles sec has, nerf the juggernaut's reflection, don't just add new special snowflake weapons that ignore those resistances
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Amelius » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:22 pm #117456

Tornadium wrote:Yeah, On sunday night we had all of sec get murderboned by two traitors with revolvers and the round after Emily Ranger was stunned 8 times in a single fight and kept getting back up due to adrenal and killed 3 sec officers in the fight and still got away.

You're exaggerating, Any competent antag can fucking destroy sec, especially gangs/nuke/traitor.

I just emagged myself a nice little path between arrivals, cargo, engineering, to rd/science and just ran around revolvering 15 people before I got bored.


Any competent antag can go around and murder all of security with nothing but a bottle of water and cablecuffs. Does that mean the game should be balanced around them? No.

If we're gonna make sec a handholding experience where you can't fail unless you fuck up in a huge way, then the game is going to turn to shit. If we're balancing around the best *antagonist* player, instead of the average of median, nothing is going to be left to kill each other but throwing spears, reserving top-tier equipment for vetted security with chem implants mandatory for transfers. Revolvers kill in two hits, yes, but tasers effectively do in one, and buying a revolver (12 or 13 TC), means you can either get an emag, or adrenals. Adrenals mean you're a one-trick-pony, and if you don't manage to get access to a lathe and metal, you're fucked very early on, and lasers will still wreck you. Emag means the moment anyone manages to stun you once, you're dead.

Also, adrenals don't even have 8 charges. You're exaggerating.
Last edited by Amelius on Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:24 pm #117457

Tornadium wrote:
Amelius wrote:
Tornadium wrote:Sec is severely underpowered and shitty vs nearly every antagonist at the moment.


Do you even play this game? I sit around as nonantag, and more happens due to bored nonantagonists than from actual slings, clings, traitors, wizard (extended: MAGIC EDITION), or cult especially. All the other modes are in an a good place, but those five almost always feel like extended (fortunately, bombs or singuloth mercifully ends the round in tator/ling), and is probably the only major thing that actually occurs). In case you're wondering, given the current rates, that's 53% of all rounds.

So yeah, no.


Yeah, On sunday night we had all of sec get murderboned by two traitors with revolvers and the round after Emily Ranger was stunned 8 times in a single fight and kept getting back up due to adrenal and killed 3 sec officers in the fight and still got away.

You're exaggerating, Any competent antag can fucking destroy sec, especially gangs/nuke/traitor.

I just emagged myself a nice little path between arrivals, cargo, engineering, to rd/science and just ran around revolvering 15 people before I got bored.


"A competent antag can annihilate the usual mouth-breathing idiots on the sec team with a revolver" is NOT a reason to fuck up the balance for 50% of all rounds.
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Tornadium » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:24 pm #117458

Shaps wrote:Security mostly uses lasers, so naturally antags began to get more and more ways to counter lasers.
Now people are thinking that maybe there's too many counters to lasers, so we just decide to swap to ballistics because there's way fewer counters to it?

That's ridiculous, the reason that there are almost no counters to bullets compared to counters to lasers is because very few people actually use bullets. I guarantee you that if we add more ballistic guns to the station, defenses against bullets are going to be buffed over time to the point where bullets and lasers will be pretty much interchangeable, and we'll be right back where we started. If there's an issue where juggernauts are unstoppable against the standard laser rifles sec has, nerf the juggernaut's reflection, don't just add new special snowflake weapons that ignore those resistances


This PR isn't to counter lasers, It's to give Security more options and (oh my god) add some new stuff to the game for security.

Ballistics are meant to be deadly, Right now Gang, Ops and Traitor slaughter sec. This puts them on a bit of a more level playing field and still allows Antags to acquire ballistics through Security and Cargo.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Tornadium » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:26 pm #117460

Amelius wrote:
Tornadium wrote:Yeah, On sunday night we had all of sec get murderboned by two traitors with revolvers and the round after Emily Ranger was stunned 8 times in a single fight and kept getting back up due to adrenal and killed 3 sec officers in the fight and still got away.

You're exaggerating, Any competent antag can fucking destroy sec, especially gangs/nuke/traitor.

I just emagged myself a nice little path between arrivals, cargo, engineering, to rd/science and just ran around revolvering 15 people before I got bored.


Any competent antag can go around and murder all of security with nothing but a bottle of water and cablecuffs. Does that mean the game should be balanced around them? No.

If we're gonna make sec a handholding experience where you can't fail unless you fuck up in a huge way, then the game is going to turn to shit. If we're balancing around the best *antagonist* player, instead of the average of median, nothing is going to be left to kill each other but throwing spears, reserving top-tier equipment for vetted security with chem implants mandatory for transfers. Revolvers kill in two hits, yes, but tasers effectively do in one, and buying a revolver (12 or 13 TC), means you can either get an emag, or adrenals. Adrenals mean you're a one-trick-pony, and if you don't manage to get access to a lathe and metal, you're fucked very early on, and lasers will still wreck you. Emag means the moment anyone manages to stun you once, you're dead.

Also, adrenals don't even have 8 charges. You're exaggerating.


He was a changeling, Trust me go check the logs for the round.

Security were actually pretty competent, They just have no way to counter ballistics at all. The best counter to ballistics is other ballistics, especially in shit like gang.

Fuck off, Sec lose far more than they win. Antag used to be about playing smart, right now it's

-Are you robust?

If yes win
If not lose

"A competent antag can annihilate the usual mouth-breathing idiots on the sec team with a revolver" is NOT a reason to fuck up the balance for 50% of all rounds.


How does this fuck up the balance of 50% of the rounds? And a competent antag can annihilate a good sec team.
Last edited by Tornadium on Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Amelius » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:26 pm #117461

Tornadium wrote:
Shaps wrote:Security mostly uses lasers, so naturally antags began to get more and more ways to counter lasers.
Now people are thinking that maybe there's too many counters to lasers, so we just decide to swap to ballistics because there's way fewer counters to it?

That's ridiculous, the reason that there are almost no counters to bullets compared to counters to lasers is because very few people actually use bullets. I guarantee you that if we add more ballistic guns to the station, defenses against bullets are going to be buffed over time to the point where bullets and lasers will be pretty much interchangeable, and we'll be right back where we started. If there's an issue where juggernauts are unstoppable against the standard laser rifles sec has, nerf the juggernaut's reflection, don't just add new special snowflake weapons that ignore those resistances


This PR isn't to counter lasers, It's to give Security more options and (oh my god) add some new stuff to the game for security.

Ballistics are meant to be deadly, Right now Gang, Ops and Traitor slaughter sec. This puts them on a bit of a more level playing field and still allows Antags to acquire ballistics through Security and Cargo.


> Traitors slaughter sec.

Oh god. Gangs convert not kill security most of the time, and it's designed that way in the first place so that sec doesn't have a domineering influence on the rounds that's oriented around gang v.s. gang combat, not gang v.s. station. Ops slaughter sec because it's 5v50, and they need to have powerful equipment to do so, and sec are first-responders anyway so of course they die first. Traitors flat out do not slaughter security, barring exceptions.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Wyzack » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:31 pm #117462

GIVE TRAITORS NEW STUFF RATHER THAN SITTING ON YOUR THUMBS BITCHING ABOUT HOW SEC SHOULD NOT HAVE NEW STUFF

seriously, the game gets fucking boring when nothing ever changes. Why not give every antag type exciting new things rather than screeching that nothing should change ever
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Tornadium » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:31 pm #117463

Amelius wrote:
Tornadium wrote:
Shaps wrote:Security mostly uses lasers, so naturally antags began to get more and more ways to counter lasers.
Now people are thinking that maybe there's too many counters to lasers, so we just decide to swap to ballistics because there's way fewer counters to it?

That's ridiculous, the reason that there are almost no counters to bullets compared to counters to lasers is because very few people actually use bullets. I guarantee you that if we add more ballistic guns to the station, defenses against bullets are going to be buffed over time to the point where bullets and lasers will be pretty much interchangeable, and we'll be right back where we started. If there's an issue where juggernauts are unstoppable against the standard laser rifles sec has, nerf the juggernaut's reflection, don't just add new special snowflake weapons that ignore those resistances


This PR isn't to counter lasers, It's to give Security more options and (oh my god) add some new stuff to the game for security.

Ballistics are meant to be deadly, Right now Gang, Ops and Traitor slaughter sec. This puts them on a bit of a more level playing field and still allows Antags to acquire ballistics through Security and Cargo.


> Traitors slaughter sec.

Oh god. Gangs convert not kill security most of the time, and it's designed that way in the first place so that sec doesn't have a domineering influence on the rounds that's oriented around gang v.s. gang combat, not gang v.s. station. Ops slaughter sec because it's 5v50, and they need to have powerful equipment to do so, and sec are first-responders anyway so of course they die first. Traitors flat out do not slaughter security, barring exceptions.


Traitors basically always work together now with the headsets, They fucking WRECK sec.

Not all gangs, Plenty of gang rounds end with Sec getting gunned down when they try to stop the dominator.

Like one uzi kills literally all of sec. They should not be that irrelevant to a round, not even gang. Right now if you have a good op team sec may as well just go play dota for the round and try again later to be honest.

Flukes are a different story.

And yeah see above, Traitors always buy the radio and always demolish sec.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Amelius » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:45 pm #117466

Tornadium wrote:Fuck off, Sec lose far more than they win. Antag used to be about playing smart, right now it's

-Are you robust?

If yes win
If not lose


Oh, are you referring to about half a year ago when we had helmetcams, infinitely spammable flashes (STILL A PROBLEM BTW), further slashed antag rates (SoS, may or may not be fixed), secmaint (still have it), ridiculous sec armor (basically re-added) and so forth? You know, when security was a gigantic coddlemachine that was literally impossible to fail capturing any antagonist, which still basically works similarly today? Flashbang and/or flash spam if no HUDs + Bowman, taze, arrest. If an officer hollered while dying and located the antagonist, then proceed to instead swarm the entire sec force on one antags position, because fucknothing ever happens in traitor/ling rounds. Proceed to watch antagonist get shrekted by a secborg and the entire secforce. Repeat for all 7 traitors.

Traitors basically always work together now with the headsets, They fucking WRECK sec.


Not in my experience.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Amelius » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:46 pm #117467

Wyzack wrote:GIVE TRAITORS NEW STUFF RATHER THAN SITTING ON YOUR THUMBS BITCHING ABOUT HOW SEC SHOULD NOT HAVE NEW STUFF

seriously, the game gets fucking boring when nothing ever changes. Why not give every antag type exciting new things rather than screeching that nothing should change ever


> Let's fuck the entire balance of the game without thinking or balancing anything. Just give traitors new stuff to balance things with no extra TC or anything. So balanced!

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Tornadium » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:49 pm #117469

Amelius wrote:
Tornadium wrote:Fuck off, Sec lose far more than they win. Antag used to be about playing smart, right now it's

-Are you robust?

If yes win
If not lose


Oh, are you referring to about half a year ago when we had helmetcams, infinitely spammable flashes (STILL A PROBLEM BTW), further slashed antag rates (SoS, may or may not be fixed), secmaint (still have it), ridiculous sec armor (basically re-added) and so forth? You know, when security was a gigantic coddlemachine that was literally impossible to fail capturing any antagonist, which still basically works similarly today? Flashbang and/or flash spam if no HUDs + Bowman, taze, arrest. If an officer hollered while dying and located the antagonist, then proceed to instead swarm the entire sec force on one antags position, because fucknothing ever happens in traitor/ling rounds. Proceed to watch antagonist get shrekted by a secborg and the entire secforce. Repeat for all 7 traitors.

Traitors basically always work together now with the headsets, They fucking WRECK sec.


Not in my experience.


I wasn't playing half a year ago, however that does sound horrible.

Apart from flashbangs, if you get hit by a flashbang you're just straight up bad.

Go play sec now, it happens pretty damn regularly.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Wyzack » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:52 pm #117470

Balance is a lot of give and take that requires many changes to get right. Steelpoint has outright said that he will be looking at buffing other aspects of traitors, and even got banned from github for trying to give traitors more TC when cheriden didn't want him to a while ago. Saying that steelpoint is just doing this to make sec better is pretty fucking dumb. Do you really want a version of the game where everything is perfectly balanced and nothing ever changes?
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby TheNightingale » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:58 pm #117473

I like it, actually. There are a few balance issues (namely, the pistol the officers start with, I think).
What if the tactical lockers (with the auto rifles) only opened on red alert (or when emagged or EMPed)? And the pistols started by default in the Brig Security lockers, rather than on the officer? (Yes, that means an understaffed Sec team can go guns akimbo. But it also means a traitor can get their hands on them too.)

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:59 pm #117474

The red alert idea is interesting but is 1)beyond my coding scope and 2) inflexible to deal with unique situations.

I'm continuing to source feedback on this change and I continue to ask more people to give their opinion on the change.
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby InsaneHyena » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:11 pm #117475

Eh, I don't like it - and not for the balance reasons. SS13 is this wonderful(ish) future, technological wonderland with cloning, robots, energy swords and black hole gods, it should have more energy guns, not less. I mean yes, even now there are ballistics like syndicate revolver or SMG, but they are rare - and I personally like it this way.
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby TechnoAlchemist » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:11 pm #117476

Also: the fact that you are switching the standard weapon to stamina damage makes adrenals worthless because they don't course stamina damage. Maybe one or two ballistic weapons in sec would probably be fine. But adding all these ballistics really fucks up game balance.

You cannot add all of this without any balance changes to antagonists or existing items. Security has always been energy based, that's their thing. Traitor items and basically everything regarding countering security considers energy weapons.

"Traitors can just take the guns!" Isn't an excuse to ignore balance issues. "Adding it and we'll just see where it goes!" Is also a terrible idea because very little reversion occur in this code base when big merges happen even with large backlash.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Wyzack » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:14 pm #117477

It really feels like nobody read the part where steelpoint said he was going to balance traitor things to compensate for the change. He seems to be trying really hard to do this right, but everyone is still super pissed.
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Kel » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:22 pm #117478

I'll just copypaste what I said on singulo.
I feel like this change is far too drastic.
This basically removes energy weapons from the game. If we wanted to give security a lethal sidearm we could have given them a small laser pistol that has to recharge a mag instead of just sticking the gun in a recharger. Perhaps in exchange for this being unwieldy it would be much more resistant to EMPs.

Also this kind of rips on the Detective's style. Maybe buff his revolver since ballistic lethal weapons are everywhere now.


EDIT: also hiding the lethal ammo in the armoury defeats the entire purpose of having a lethal sidearm that all officers have access to. Wasn't the whole point of this to buff security so they actually can stand a chance against half the antags?
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby imblyings » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:29 pm #117481

>yfw even more people cry about detectives being sec officers with guns, despite them having the only easily accessible ballistic
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Tornadium » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:50 pm #117483

Kel wrote:I'll just copypaste what I said on singulo.
I feel like this change is far too drastic.
This basically removes energy weapons from the game. If we wanted to give security a lethal sidearm we could have given them a small laser pistol that has to recharge a mag instead of just sticking the gun in a recharger. Perhaps in exchange for this being unwieldy it would be much more resistant to EMPs.

Also this kind of rips on the Detective's style. Maybe buff his revolver since ballistic lethal weapons are everywhere now.


EDIT: also hiding the lethal ammo in the armoury defeats the entire purpose of having a lethal sidearm that all officers have access to. Wasn't the whole point of this to buff security so they actually can stand a chance against half the antags?


Perhaps just put the lethal ammo in the equipment room.

Or spawn an officer with one of each.

Energy weapons still have their benefits.

Adding something which has some perks doesn't completely remove the incentive to use energy weapons when they are superior in a number of areas. Having equipment used situationally is a lot better than "oh always use this" because it streamlines the experience and makes shit fucking boring.

Lasers

-Still can fire through windows
-Can be very easily and reliably recharged without worrying about ammo supplies
-Tasers are still one hit stun (very useful against multiple people)

Lasers are in no way irrelevant, they're a different weapon choice with different perks and trade offs.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Amelius » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:01 pm #117511

Also more issues:

Ammunition is tough to replace and relies on R&D or cargo along with crazy amounts of metal and will likely be very difficult to obtain for non-sec/cargo/R&D, and even then, if you don't kill all your co-workers then you'll almost surely be narced on unless you're an officer. Switching standard issue tasers for projectile weapons necessitates taking over cargo/R&D as an antagonist to use a projectile weapon for more than one kill, which is terrible design when the alternative is being able to recharge a weapon at any sec outpost on the station.

Seriously, worst proposed changes ever and it'll make the game utterly unplayable for months.

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Tornadium » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:16 pm #117516

Amelius wrote:Also more issues:

Ammunition is tough to replace and relies on R&D or cargo along with crazy amounts of metal and will likely be very difficult to obtain for non-sec/cargo/R&D, and even then, if you don't kill all your co-workers then you'll almost surely be narced on unless you're an officer. Switching standard issue tasers for projectile weapons necessitates taking over cargo/R&D as an antagonist to use a projectile weapon for more than one kill, which is terrible design when the alternative is being able to recharge a weapon at any sec outpost on the station.

Seriously, worst proposed changes ever and it'll make the game utterly unplayable for months.


Put an ammo press in the armory, you can manually fill magazines one bullet at a time from the press.

Job done, no reliance on RD or on Cargo.

That means antags can take over cargo and sec won't have it locked down every round.

Stop being bitter and maybe try to improve the actual suggestion for once ?

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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Wyzack » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:20 pm #117518

> Our asspain will blot out the sun

> Then we will merge in the shade

Seriously though Amelius why not offer some ways you think the PR could be better other than LOLNOBALENCEISDEDWORSTCHANGE2015
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Stickymayhem » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:39 pm #117524

the core concept itself is a bad idea.

Normally I'd agree with you Wyzack but doing any kind of ballistic overhaul is a terrible idea
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Re: PR#11662: Security Weapon Overhaul: Ballistic Edition

Postby Wyzack » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:48 pm #117526

It is a shame because steel point clearly put in some time on this stuff. Can we please buff lasers/give them tacticool new sprites instead? Right now being shot with a fucking laser gun hurts about as bad as being whacked with a fire extinguisher which is pretty shit
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