Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

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Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Dagdammit » Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:18 am #228175

Image
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Design Document
Been posting relevant sprites here

Short version: Replace the existing mining outpost with larger compound, consisting of a fortified perimeter (including turrets), six modular structures deployed in conjoined pairs (inspired by the Halley VI research station), and a pair of public-access automated shuttles that travel to and from lavaland. Resulting setup could better integrate the station staff & infrastructure into the lavaland experience, giving other departments interesting ways to support shaft miners in their efforts to explore lavaland.

What say ye?
Last edited by Dagdammit on Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:49 am, edited 2 times in total.



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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost)

Postby letshavecake » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:03 am #228186

You forgot to include the stuff about the xeno dildo fabricator, which is kind of important since that's the main addition this would add that isn't just a mapping change

I think it seems like a good idea, though it's hard to criticize before seeing how it works in action, how people end up using it and such

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost)

Postby Digdugxx » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:09 am #228187

Why not add some kind of periodic event kind of like the ash storms where mobs assault the fort, I think that'd be pretty sick.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost)

Postby Dagdammit » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:46 am #228193

letshavecake wrote:You forgot to include the stuff about the xeno dildo fabricator, which is kind of important since that's the main addition this would add that isn't just a mapping change

It's there now, under Science Module. Should I add it to General Info instead?

Digdugxx wrote:Why not add some kind of periodic event kind of like the ash storms where mobs assault the fort, I think that'd be pretty sick.

It'd be cool as a not-every-round event like Space Carp Migration. Then again, a necropolis tendril near the compound accomplishes much of the same thing.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost)

Postby D&B » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:42 pm #228214

Seems needlessly and obnoxiously big.

It'd be better as a ruin to rebuild rather than a round start building.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost)

Postby John_Oxford » Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:52 pm #228226

Give miners and more or less the on site security a customizable personal defense weapon (which is very modular, of course)

Miners now start with defense implants, which allow you to use the weapons. Two cases of these spawn in the armory section of the security section of the base. Mining Overseer or whatever starts with one to (along with the hos) Its firing pin dependent
Oxford Arms CR-30AU (compact rifle - thirty rounds - airless universal)
Image

Completely customizable, on base security receive one to fend off rogue personnel who could get a hold of mining equipment to fuck them over in a low pressure enviorment. The head site miner or some shit recieves one to (the mini-head)

Image

Maybe give the security office window to the east shutters, replace it with a table, and make it into a mod shop, then put some machines in there that produce weapon mods from minerals.

Or switch the locations of xenoarch with the TBD location, and make the south area a dual purpose mining upgrade/rnd/weapon upgrade/creation booth/shop.

Image
(from left to right)
CR-30AU, fires 10mm in bursts of two. Is not select fire, Holds 30 rounds. Fits in your backpack.
CR-30AU, with a sling, allows it to be worn on your belt slot, armor slot, as armor (has a 1% chance to destroy the gun but stop the projectile if you are hit by a bullet in the chest) and back slot.
CR-30AU II with a sling and iron sights, has all the attributes of the sling version but is in semi automatic, still isnt select fire.
CR-30AU III with a sling and holographic sight, increases the odds of hitting the targeted body part (for simple mobs it just does 5% more damage)
Image
CR-30AU III with armor piercing rounds, does 10 more damage to megafauna, goliaths, and watchers (and also ignores 60% of a humans armor value)
CR-30AU III with condensed explosive rounds, does no more direct damage to humans than normal rounds, but explodes. Can be used to mine rock. Chance to blow human limbs off, does 15 more damage to mining mobs and knocks them back a tile (which if theres a wall behind them, it causes a additional five damage, totaling to twenty) mega fauna are unaffected by it.
CR-30AU IV with a longer barrel and oil soaked rag wrap and a 6x nanographic scope. Same function as a syndicate sniper rifle, allows you to zoom. Same damage as a stock CR. Two round burst on target.
(next ones the same thing for some reason)
Image
(same thing as the CR-30AU IV)
CR-30AU V Caliber upgraded to 7.62, semi automatic, with a scope.
(next two are the same thing, they both have a bipod which increases accuracy when standing still, they both have armor piercing and explosive rounds)
Image
CR-30AU VI. Wrapped in oil soaked rags, fires two shot bursts. (+Bipod +LScope +Sling)

The next ones are all CR-30AU IX's they are select fire from semi automatic, two round burst, three round burst, and fully automatic. They fire 7.62.

Keep in mind, most of the high level mods require autistic amounts of minerals and or research levels. Some of the later tiers probally should only be rare mining drops or admin spawns.

ps: i can probally cut these up into seperate rifles and pdw's, and build up a entire armory around them.

pss: the description will tell what about what the rifle is doing.

ex:

This is a CR-30AU V.
The Oxford Arms Personal Defense Weapon, this one chambers 7.62, is only semi automatic, and has a Pathfinder Scope attached to it.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost)

Postby Alipheese » Sat Nov 19, 2016 4:16 pm #228232

I want some meme war of attrition vs an omega tendril.

But yeah seems kinda too much as D&B has said. The current outpost could use an update.

A few of the main things I hate about the outpost is the uselessness of everything but the medical room / suit room. That production line? No points. Dorms? Why. Kitchen, no one ever uses besides me for those sweet donks. Extras room. Why would I go in there. Supply closet, fuck having a full tank. That little 2x1 closet. The fuck.

Itd be better as an extremely mini station map.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost)

Postby D&B » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:22 pm #228245

This would be great if we had different enemies that required higher firepower, but the low variety makes the hyper kinetic accelerator the to go weapon because it's effective against all these monsters.

This would be better off as a station based on lava land rather than a new mining base.
Spoiler:
[20:26:02]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Welp. It was just a prank bro isn't a very good excuse when it comes to unprovoked nonantag murder, but since this is your first time doing it and you seem to understand the problem instead of a bannu I'm just going to leave you with a warning. Please PLEASE don't do this again in the future, as funny as crackhead broken bottle memes can be. Alrighty? Do you have any input on this?
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost)

Postby Dagdammit » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:29 pm #228298

D&B wrote:Seems needlessly and obnoxiously big.

It'd be better as a ruin to rebuild rather than a round start building.


Wait, sorry- does the map read as being one building? Because that would be WAY too big. Most of the compound is exposed, open space that is dangerous to cross during ash storms. I was worried the space in layout version would be too much, but upon testing it (loading that crude .dmm and running around) it seems fine.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost)

Postby Dagdammit » Sat Nov 19, 2016 9:52 pm #228302

Also, one key scenario compound is designed for: a robust ash walker tribe trying to invade the station. In my head this needs to be akin to breaking into perma, i.e. a tricky undertaking with multiple routes and methods to attempt. With that in mind, options include:

-Frontal assault. Concentrate on breaking 1-2 turrets to make hole in perimeter, then break window (or deconstruct wall if shutters are down) & enter through the breach.
-Run the gauntlet through the front entrance (viable if gate's left unlocked and unguarded.)
-Enter via the bridge from gulag. (sandbags will give limited cover from turret, enough to break window if you're two-handing a spear)
-Conduct viking raids using lava boats.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Dagdammit » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:41 am #228319

(copying my john oxford responses over from the sprite thread, since a mod objected. Also had some new comments, put those at the end.)
John_Oxford wrote:How would you feel about giving cargo a machine to produce some miner-specific weaponry, instead of ordering it? (gunsmithing yes) (or already existing weaponry like stock ka's or crushers)

That, or give them like i tiny little 3x3 box that has grates infront of it, then put a machine that syncs with RnD levels and produces KA mod's for a reduce mineral cost if its used.

There's a reason the Ghetto R&D section of Science Module is directly down the hall from Processing Module, which is cargo & the place miners go to offload minerals. (I normally play on Yogs, and every shift the shaft miners haul minerals over to R&D and then wait around for scientists to protolathe high-end mining gear. Is it different on basil & sybil?)

John_Oxford wrote:(schill proposing personal defense weapons for sec+mining)
Spoiler:
Give miners and more or less the on site security a customizable personal defense weapon (which is very modular, of course)

Miners now start with defense implants, which allow you to use the weapons. Two cases of these spawn in the armory section of the security section of the base. Mining Overseer or whatever starts with one to (along with the hos) Its firing pin dependent
Oxford Arms CR-30AU (compact rifle - thirty rounds - airless universal)
Image

Completely customizable, on base security receive one to fend off rogue personnel who could get a hold of mining equipment to fuck them over in a low pressure enviorment. The head site miner or some shit recieves one to (the mini-head)

Image

Maybe give the security office window to the east shutters, replace it with a table, and make it into a mod shop, then put some machines in there that produce weapon mods from minerals.

Or switch the locations of xenoarch with the TBD location, and make the south area a dual purpose mining upgrade/rnd/weapon upgrade/creation booth/shop.

Image
(from left to right)
CR-30AU, fires 10mm in bursts of two. Is not select fire, Holds 30 rounds. Fits in your backpack.
CR-30AU, with a sling, allows it to be worn on your belt slot, armor slot, as armor (has a 1% chance to destroy the gun but stop the projectile if you are hit by a bullet in the chest) and back slot.
CR-30AU II with a sling and iron sights, has all the attributes of the sling version but is in semi automatic, still isnt select fire.
CR-30AU III with a sling and holographic sight, increases the odds of hitting the targeted body part (for simple mobs it just does 5% more damage)
Image
CR-30AU III with armor piercing rounds, does 10 more damage to megafauna, goliaths, and watchers (and also ignores 60% of a humans armor value)
CR-30AU III with condensed explosive rounds, does no more direct damage to humans than normal rounds, but explodes. Can be used to mine rock. Chance to blow human limbs off, does 15 more damage to mining mobs and knocks them back a tile (which if theres a wall behind them, it causes a additional five damage, totaling to twenty) mega fauna are unaffected by it.
CR-30AU IV with a longer barrel and oil soaked rag wrap and a 6x nanographic scope. Same function as a syndicate sniper rifle, allows you to zoom. Same damage as a stock CR. Two round burst on target.
(next ones the same thing for some reason)
Image
(same thing as the CR-30AU IV)
CR-30AU V Caliber upgraded to 7.62, semi automatic, with a scope.
(next two are the same thing, they both have a bipod which increases accuracy when standing still, they both have armor piercing and explosive rounds)
Image
CR-30AU VI. Wrapped in oil soaked rags, fires two shot bursts. (+Bipod +LScope +Sling)

The next ones are all CR-30AU IX's they are select fire from semi automatic, two round burst, three round burst, and fully automatic. They fire 7.62.

Keep in mind, most of the high level mods require autistic amounts of minerals and or research levels. Some of the later tiers probally should only be rare mining drops or admin spawns.

ps: i can probally cut these up into seperate rifles and pdw's, and build up a entire armory around them.

pss: the description will tell what about what the rifle is doing.

ex:

This is a CR-30AU V.
The Oxford Arms Personal Defense Weapon, this one chambers 7.62, is only semi automatic, and has a Pathfinder Scope attached to it.

Hmmm.

I mean, giving miners combination mining tools+weapons that are significantly more effective in low-pressure environments (plus boot knives) just seems like an all-around cooler design choice than giving them assault rifles.

That said, putting a few customized assault rifles in the armory (two of the third CR-30AU III spec for megafauna incursions and two of the second CR-30AU spec for ash walkers & prison riots)... I dunno. You've got me thinking about it, at least. Maybe if unauthorized looting of armory requires breaking into the overseer's office first.... like, make it sec access but it's shuttered by a restricted-access switch in the Head Overseer's office, like with Secure Engineering Storage.

John_Oxford wrote:You could also give them the ability to produce synthetic armor for explorer suits, just have it made out of plastanium or some shit.

Construction Module's Aux Function (the upgraded functionality it gets when engineer sets up two generators & miners bring in minerals to power it) is a Hardsuit Fabricator, which would be the new way to get Mining Hardsuits. I was thinking you have to feed it plassteel.

John_Oxford wrote:(i'll give you some special snowflake -no pressure- -tactical- rifle and handgun sprites if you want to add this)

The one thing I was tempted to ask was just: Assuming I/we do go with Oxford CR-30s in armory, could the anti-megafauna gun(s) use the sprite that's got maximum rags?

I've been feeling like that armory really needs some kind of flavorful big-game-hunter weapon that the Mining Overseer busts out when an Ash Drake pays a visit. Something that's got that crazy elephant gun flavor. Up till now I'd been thinking harpoon gun, but that sprite also evokes the right flavor. Call it Vera and have the description say that it's the beloved pet of previous mining overseer.
Last edited by Dagdammit on Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby John_Oxford » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:43 am #228320

Dagdammit wrote:-snip-


I can make something like that. or you can us the VI's

on a scale of disablers to bluespace artillery, how badly do you want it to fuck shit up.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Dagdammit » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:46 am #228321

John_Oxford wrote:
Dagdammit wrote:-snip-


I can make something like that. or you can us the VI's

on a scale of disablers to bluespace artillery, how badly do you want it to fuck shit up.

VIs?

How badly do I want what specific thing to fuck shit up? The mining overseer's personal big game-hunting weapon?

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Dagdammit » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:24 am #228336

John_Oxford wrote:on topic edit though, i just realized i completely forgot to mention

the guns have operating parts and bolts that are calibrated to work in low to no pressure environments, firing them in a pressurized environment will destroy the gun (and possibly you in the process)

Huh. I actually do like the idea that they only work when outdoors, i.e. antag who wants to kill you has to stand outside the module & try and shoot you through a window.

Reasons I'd still oppose making them standard issue (even with mineral costs) for miners OR sec:
-I'm really worried about giving lavaland compound more things people want to spend minerals on- there's already compound power, protolathe, and probably plasma for hardsuit fabricator's plassteel. I'm trying to balance the whole "compound's beneficial features depend on you bringing in minerals" deal with the danger of assholes failing to share what's brought in with the station.
-I'm a big fan of how most of the time in SS13 your weapons weren't meant to be weapons- instead they're tools (welder, PKA, circular saw), blunt objects like extinguishers & toolboxes, or macgyvered things like beakers of chemicals and cobbled-together flamethrowers. I don't even like spears being a thing, if it was up to me I'd cut the damage of all spears by 5 and then give ash walkers a unique +5 bonus for being properly proficient with them.
-Having to carry around a weapon AND mining tool is more cumbersome, especially when you have to carry spare mags & use them to reload. You don't want the optimal default playstyle to be cumbersome or crowd the inventories of the guys who spend rounds stuffing their backpack with sweet loot.
-Potential ease with which an antag or griefer can just run around lavaland (or camp the arriving mining shuttle) and just opportunistically murderbone people.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby letshavecake » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:28 am #228387

I'm pretty sure someone said in another thread that the xeno injector thing was too similar to the already boring R&D system, which I think is something worth considering before you put any of this into motion
Things in this game have a habit of not being changed after they're put in, people just add stuff on top of systems, trying to make them better without fixing the underlying problems, until you have a feature with too much going on to simply remove or change. So there's a distinct chance that if a new system is put into the game with little thought, it will end up being shit forever. No pressure

Also a unique gun or two, or a couple new customization options for existing things would be neat but I don't think there's much need for a big autistic gun crafting system to be tied entirely to a small mining compound that already has good weapons
Spoiler:
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Dagdammit » Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:17 am #228404

I think I've got enough on my plate without trying to personally push an R&D rework through as well. Do you have any thoughts on a better way for the Xeno Research Level to work, or an alternative?

The one thing that would literally rely on R&D being the way it is was the bit about syncing with the R&D server, which I'm hardly attached to. At the least it'd probably be better if syncing was an automatic thing you could toggle on and off.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Kel-the-Oblivious » Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:01 am #228412

Things I feel as a miner this place NEEDS badly:

Anti Megafauna defenses. Some way to drive them away without hurting them. This is supposed to be a base, not an allied combatant when fighting megafauna. Maybe a heavy teleporter turret that only targets megafauna, and flings them randomly around the map, with a minimum distance to ensure it doesn't end up ported INSIDE the base. I can't tell you how many times I've landed to mine, and seen a Mega just chilling right outside suit storage, or lurking outside secondary storage.

No PROPER RnD. No protolathe, no analyzer. If it's going to be occult item studies, have it be purely dedicated to that. Mining can pretty much tell the station to go fuck itself if they get a hold of a full RnD suite. Steal the ORM and they can go full autism fortress mode.

Low Airpressure guns that don't work in zero pressure. Low pressure, yes, not zero. If you have a SUPER SWEET space gun, you are going to have assholes who will make it their mission to steal that gun every round before going on their space adventure.

Hell, nick the whole unique gun aspect, and bring back the Super and Hyper KAs. Let them either be stronger than a normal KA in all regards, or have them be the same as a KA with more mod space to work with. Six damage mods and an AoE damage mod? That will rip anything apart in a few clicks.

Give plasma cutters upgrades as well for that matter. An ammo generator, a beam width increaser, firing speed, what have you. KAs tend to be thrown to side the moment advanced cutters become available.

Have the mining shuttle require mining access to use. Makes it harder for people to break into mining and steal all their potential fat loot, and makes it harder for various antags to turn it into a secret base of operations.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby letshavecake » Sun Nov 20, 2016 8:28 am #228414

Dagdammit wrote:I think I've got enough on my plate without trying to personally push an R&D rework through as well. Do you have any thoughts on a better way for the Xeno Research Level to work, or an alternative?

The one thing that would literally rely on R&D being the way it is was the bit about syncing with the R&D server, which I'm hardly attached to. At the least it'd probably be better if syncing was an automatic thing you could toggle on and off.

No, you misunderstand, R&D is already deeply a part of the department and not going away any time soon, I'm just saying don't make those same mistakes

As for specific ideas, you could make it actual xenobio work instead of giving it an abstract point system
Like, you corral an actual goliath in the wild, bring it back and use it for parts, injecting it with stuff to have it generate different chemicals, and so on
Could also have some xenobotany, growing and mutating plants found on lavaland to get some of that unique stuff, which could then tie back into doing experiments on the living monsters with what you get
I mean I admit that's not exactly new and different either, but I think it's at least more interesting than putting items into a machine and pressing a button to get goodies

Kel-the-Oblivious wrote:
Have the mining shuttle require mining access to use. Makes it harder for people to break into mining and steal all their potential fat loot, and makes it harder for various antags to turn it into a secret base of operations.


The whole point would be that parts of it are for people other than miners, and making lavaland somewhat public access
You know, like the regular station already is
And antags can't exactly turn something into a secret base if it's out in the open and accessible to everyone

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Kel-the-Oblivious » Sun Nov 20, 2016 10:15 am #228425

letshavecake wrote:
The whole point would be that parts of it are for people other than miners, and making lavaland somewhat public access
You know, like the regular station already is
And antags can't exactly turn something into a secret base if it's out in the open and accessible to everyone


I am all for giving more people work to do down in Lavaland. The fact there is only three mining positions is somewhat annoying, and only the QM and HoP have access to there at start. I'd love to have some proper medical facilities and a dedicated security officer, both to help handle unwelcome visitors, be they crew or native fauna, and having our own demi head as the Foreman, someone who handle people coming into their worksite would be awesome.

Making Lavaland into a "regular part of the station" makes absolutely no sense. It is a death trap and full of things actively trying to kill you. Without proper equipment and protection, venturing out into the Lavaland is asking to be killed in a variety of ways. I can not tell you the times I've seen Joe Greytide come running along through Lavaland, and only to find their charbroiled corpse because they didn't know to find shelter the moment a storm comes, or found some ashwalker corpse inside of a Legion.

Nothing about Lavaland should be considering a part of the station. You want nothing from Lavaland except for the sweet mineral wealth to make it back to that station. Only people authorized to work there should be let planet side, because it is a place where untrained personnel really, really should never go.

And as for Antags not turning it into a base, if you make it easier to get there and get into lavaland proper, there is nothing stopping you from grabbing a pick and digging out a nice niche somewhere away from base. Wait a bit for the miners to go their exploration runs, and you can follow their tunnels to various structures and set up in there. Not to mention to ease of disposing of bodies. Want someone to be erased from existence? Throw them into one of the countless lava tiles, and watch them be reduced to cinders. On station there are two places you can achieve that. The chapel, which requires chaplain access, and the grinder, which is easier to use, but in a far more public place. In Lavaland, you step out three tiles and you can hurl anyone into it.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby letshavecake » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:02 am #228427

Lava disposals is a good point, but there's really no harm in giving team antags(really only the cults) places for secret bases(that are also incredibly dangerous even to them, especially without ways to protect from the storms).

And if dumb assistants run in, don't prepare, and get killed by the big loud ashstorm that warns them in advance, that's really their fault
People can run off into space right out of arrivals too, but we don't babyproof the airlocks and keep them from doing it

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Kel-the-Oblivious » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:44 am #228436

letshavecake wrote:And if dumb assistants run in, don't prepare, and get killed by the big loud ashstorm that warns them in advance, that's really their fault
People can run off into space right out of arrivals too, but we don't babyproof the airlocks and keep them from doing it



Except they have. Every single airlock in maint requires proper access. Yes, you have arrival and evac airlocks open for public access, but both of those are in very public places, and if you see someone running off with a corpse in that direction, a quick AI can lock them down, or you can easily push them around enough to stop them. You have two narrow paths to use, which can easily be turned against you.

And saying "Well, if the assistant runs in and dies, it's obviously their fault." Well, they shouldn't be there in the first place. Are you working xenobiology and some asshole runs and jumps into your slime cage, are you just going to shrug and go "Well, the asshole shouldn't have broke into the highly secure location full of known lethal things and died." You shouldn't have let that idiot in there in the first place.

And if team antags want secret bases, there is plenty of places to use in maint, which allows plenty of hidden nooks and crannies to use that can never be discovered. This is like saying "Medical should become a public space on the station" or "Why, anyone should be allowed into botany proper, or the kitchen, because anyone would be allowed to cook." No, even these mundane locations are sealed from public access, because it is a workspace. You are hired on to work in this place.

If you want a public mining location, make the gulag less shitty, and make it like old mining asteroid's eastern wing. No tunnels and sparse minerals, and surrounded by lava on all sides.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby kevinz000 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:02 pm #228439

+1 to the compound
-1 to giving miners guns. They're powerful AS-IS.
EDIT: Actually, giving them guns might not be a bad ideas, due to ashwalkers/miners/syndicates/future lavaland expansion. Just uh, please be aware of what's balanced, and what's not, as this would tip the impact of team antag rounds the most, and otherwise, lone antag modes, as more nonantags/antags can get their hands on roundstart guns.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby letshavecake » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:11 pm #228442

Kel-the-Oblivious wrote:Except they have. Every single airlock in maint requires proper access. Yes, you have arrival and evac airlocks open for public access, but both of those are in very public places, and if you see someone running off with a corpse in that direction, a quick AI can lock them down, or you can easily push them around enough to stop them. You have two narrow paths to use, which can easily be turned against you.

And saying "Well, if the assistant runs in and dies, it's obviously their fault." Well, they shouldn't be there in the first place. Are you working xenobiology and some asshole runs and jumps into your slime cage, are you just going to shrug and go "Well, the asshole shouldn't have broke into the highly secure location full of known lethal things and died." You shouldn't have let that idiot in there in the first place.

And if team antags want secret bases, there is plenty of places to use in maint, which allows plenty of hidden nooks and crannies to use that can never be discovered. This is like saying "Medical should become a public space on the station" or "Why, anyone should be allowed into botany proper, or the kitchen, because anyone would be allowed to cook." No, even these mundane locations are sealed from public access, because it is a workspace. You are hired on to work in this place.

If you want a public mining location, make the gulag less shitty, and make it like old mining asteroid's eastern wing. No tunnels and sparse minerals, and surrounded by lava on all sides.


Except very few people actually care about the mining part of lavaland, a safe space """fun""" public gulag with nothing in it including mining materials would defeat the entire purpose
These comparisons you're making make no sense, an entire z-level full of stuff that's of interest to the entire station shouldn't be a secure area available to only five people

You might as well make the argument that main hallways should be blocked off because the janitor works there and needs solitude, plus the slippery floors can be dangerous

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Kel-the-Oblivious » Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:43 pm #228447

letshavecake wrote:
Except very few people actually care about the mining part of lavaland, a safe space """fun""" public gulag with nothing in it including mining materials would defeat the entire purpose
These comparisons you're making make no sense, an entire z-level full of stuff that's of interest to the entire station shouldn't be a secure area available to only five people

You might as well make the argument that main hallways should be blocked off because the janitor works there and needs solitude, plus the slippery floors can be dangerous


The station is surrounded on all sides by Z-levels full of stuff interesting and useful to the station that takes a little gear and prep work.

Making the main hallways a workspace makes no sense, because it is a center of connection between all the various station wide areas. Yes, the janitor works in there, but their space is the janitorial closet, which only the janitor has access to.

And really, the only things of interest to the "station" outside of mineral wealth is the tendril, megafauna, and simple fauna loot. Tendril loot can be insanely useful to miners to help them mine. An eye of god, a ship in a bottle, a quantum cube, paradox bags, champion hardsuit, angel wings. Yes, "well the rest of the station should have a chance to get those." No, they shouldn't. All of these listed make life as a miner easier, allowing us to avoid certain hazards, reduce our travel time, give us a better view of Lavaland. Angel wings lets you avoid chasms and move quickly. But all of those things can be found or made on station, with a little mineral wealth from mining. Want to go FAST? Get botany to make Robust coffee beans. Want to have X-RAY VISION? Harp on Genetics, and find some mesons for nightvision. Want a strong hardsuit? Work in security, engineering, atmos, or RnD. Want teleportation? That's what hand teleporters are for. Bigger bag? Use a bag of holding.

And for a real life example, do you think ANY mine on the planet allows just random passers by to walk through their worksite? Yeah, they might have a front office for them to talk to someone, but you'd be booted out of any mining operation if you were just going for a leisurely stroll through their pit or shafts. It is a worksite, just like any other one the station, it just happens to take up an entire Z-level, because what is called in the job it to extract mineral wealth across this god forsaken hellhole and try not to die in the process.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby kevinz000 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:07 pm #228453

Welcome to nanotrasen.
This is not real life.
I do agree about the loot being only for miners though.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Dagdammit » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:27 pm #228456

Kel-the-Oblivious wrote:Anti Megafauna defenses. Some way to drive them away without hurting them. This is supposed to be a base, not an allied combatant when fighting megafauna. Maybe a heavy teleporter turret that only targets megafauna, and flings them randomly around the map, with a minimum distance to ensure it doesn't end up ported INSIDE the base. I can't tell you how many times I've landed to mine, and seen a Mega just chilling right outside suit storage, or lurking outside secondary storage.

I'd rather solve that via tweaks to lavaland generation code- make it so they can still roam into compound eventually but won't be close at roundstart. Sandbags and KA turrets are meant to fend off regular mobs & hostile spear-wielding natives, not Hell's answer to King Kong.

Quick responses to some other things you bring up:

Occult Research is absolutely one candidate for the "TBD" section of science module. I like the idea it wasn't designed that way but eventually the Librarian and Chaplain were told they could use like, half of the back room for their weird mystic bullshit. (one mechanic I had in mind was that lavaland artifacts have a chance of being secretly "cursed", and Occult Research can detect these curses and figure out the specific methods to purge each one. Artifacts whose curses aren't purged don't function any differently; instead there's an extra chance of various random negative events like Revenants happening based on how many cursed lavaland artifacts are currently present on the station. Sleeping people on the station get warning messages alluding to the specific artifacts in question, and Ash walkers sometimes hear the same warnings on the wind during ash storms)

"Out in Lavaland" is still a deathtrap for Joe Greytide, it's just that "out in lavaland" is now beyond the gates of the compound. Inside the compound... well it's not SAFE, but with ash storms shelter's usually close enough that you can reach something in time or have a chance to be dramatically rescued.

Corpse disposal via lava has been weighing on my mind as a balance issue, yeah. Same goes for tossing people into the landing zone of the mining shuttle.

letshavecake wrote:
Kel-the-Oblivious wrote:Have the mining shuttle require mining access to use. Makes it harder for people to break into mining and steal all their potential fat loot, and makes it harder for various antags to turn it into a secret base of operations.


The whole point would be that parts of it are for people other than miners, and making lavaland somewhat public access
You know, like the regular station already is
And antags can't exactly turn something into a secret base if it's out in the open and accessible to everyone

Yeah, LetsHaveCake gets it. Look at it this way: Having non-miners working at the outpost means you can just offload minerals there and then IMMEDIATELY get back to mining- hell, if there's people there you trust you can just call for your ore box to get teleported back there while you're out in lavaland, & ask them to send it back to you once they're done. (Smart ore boxes can be ID-locked like personal lockers, and will automatically unload ore into the ore redemption machine & credit your account)

Meanwhile, if it's lowpop and you're the only one who even went to lavaland, the setup's still simple:
-Go to Processing, offload ores. Put like half of them in a crate yourself, tag it for transport to the station, and leave it in the central hall across from one of the MULES, it'll automatically be loaded onto the mining shuttle & unloaded at station.
-Go down the hall to sci module's protolathe. (you might have to stick fresh plasma sheets in the generator by the module's front entrance to give all the machines power.) If someone on the station has done R&D, load the requisite minerals into the protolathe and print new toys.
-Go mine some more.

letshavecake wrote:As for specific ideas, you could make it actual xenobio work instead of giving it an abstract point system
Like, you corral an actual goliath in the wild, bring it back and use it for parts, injecting it with stuff to have it generate different chemicals, and so on

I haven't really explained it well, but coralling live specimens is already in the system.
Step 1: bring enough samples of a species to unlock their Stun and Sedate xeno inector formulas.
Step 2: Using a xeno injector on a mob follows same rules as injecting someone with a syringe, but the time needed depends on the effect- injectors with multiple effects use the highest time requirement. Sedation take 2 seconds, generally impossible on hostile mobs (barring say, skillful use of a bear trap). But Stun is instant, like hypospray. So you make one injector with Stun, one injector with Sedate, and use them one after the other. (Sedate lasts 4+1d4 minutes OR until the mob takes damage)
Actually doing stuff to the live specimen would be neat... you know, I think I've got some easily-implemented mechanics which would achieve it.
-Small containment room in/outside of sci, like xenobio's bigger containment on station.
-Successfully using the DTA on a live specimen (again, they have to hold still) gets the same research point value as on a dead one, and deals brute damage equal to half their max health.
-Injecting a live mob with unstable mutagen (say, using a syringe gun) changes them to a different specimen in the DTA's eyes, meaning you can get more research points from them.
-Bruise packs already work on simple mobs and there's mid-tier xeno injectors to revive mobs or give them slow+steady regen. Analyze, heal, mutate, and repeat until your analysis for that species is maxed out.

At the same time, I feel like a higher priority is being able to do cool stuff WITH xeno injectors. Mixing and matching effects could let you engineer altered versions of species for all kinds of mad sciency purposes.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Kel-the-Oblivious » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:33 pm #228457

Yes. In real life, if a bleeding man breaks into a hospital, he'll get treated for his injuries before being arrested, not beaten within an inch of his life, sedated, and left to bleed out for being an asshole for breaking into someone's department. I can tell you right now I hate it when non-authorized personnel arrive in Lavaland, because one: it's my fucking department, get out reee, two: There is no reason for random crew to visit an actively hostile hellscape "because they want to sight see." That's like saying you should build an observatory around Singuloth so people can watch our lord and master. And before you think someone getting into mining could NOT do as much damage as Singuloth, I have seen two different megafauna make it to station, and be used as a roving murder machine, demolishing the station and murdering anyone who happened to come running down the hall. Oh, you managed to run away? Well, it's chasing you now, and if it loses aggro on you, it's most likely going to find something else to rage at.

I am fine with expanding mining department. Double the crew size, triple it even. Just DO NOT make it a public space for Joe Greyshirt to freely visit as he pleases. If the fucking CLOWN has a place they can call their own, Mining sure as fuck earns that right on what we do for the station. You want our toys? Fuck you, a competent crew capable of getting all the toys the Lavaland has to offer can EASILY drown the station in minerals within 20 minutes, then go off and megahunt.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby letshavecake » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:44 pm #228458

Dagdammit wrote:I'd rather solve that via tweaks to lavaland generation code- make it so they can still roam into compound eventually but won't be close at roundstart. Sandbags and KA turrets are meant to fend off regular mobs & hostile spear-wielding natives, not Hell's answer to King Kong.

Could steal ideas from dorf forts, make the area initially safe, but digging too deep will open the floodgates and let shit roam inside, which would protect it until miners or other explorers show up and start properly working

At the same time, I feel like a higher priority is being able to do cool stuff WITH xeno injectors. Mixing and matching effects could let you engineer altered versions of species for all kinds of mad sciency purposes.

Well, the sky's really the limit, you don't even have to focus on the creatures themselves, the effects could be as varied as slime core effects, just with the added barrier of danger in acquiring them

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby kevinz000 » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:52 pm #228462

Kel-the-Oblivious wrote:Yes. In real life, if a bleeding man breaks into a hospital, he'll get treated for his injuries before being arrested, not beaten within an inch of his life, sedated, and left to bleed out for being an asshole for breaking into someone's department. I can tell you right now I hate it when non-authorized personnel arrive in Lavaland, because one: it's my fucking department, get out reee, two: There is no reason for random crew to visit an actively hostile hellscape "because they want to sight see." That's like saying you should build an observatory around Singuloth so people can watch our lord and master. And before you think someone getting into mining could NOT do as much damage as Singuloth, I have seen two different megafauna make it to station, and be used as a roving murder machine, demolishing the station and murdering anyone who happened to come running down the hall. Oh, you managed to run away? Well, it's chasing you now, and if it loses aggro on you, it's most likely going to find something else to rage at.

I am fine with expanding mining department. Double the crew size, triple it even. Just DO NOT make it a public space for Joe Greyshirt to freely visit as he pleases. If the fucking CLOWN has a place they can call their own, Mining sure as fuck earns that right on what we do for the station. You want our toys? Fuck you, a competent crew capable of getting all the toys the Lavaland has to offer can EASILY drown the station in minerals within 20 minutes, then go off and megahunt.

Good thing a large amount of the compound will be access-locked right? It's a planet. Why not allow people to go? Allows for easier future expansion into lavaland as it's already a large part of the game, unlike the asteroid, which was just a boring old asteroid.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby CPTANT » Sun Nov 20, 2016 1:55 pm #228464

I think it would be really nice if the mining outpost was accessible publicly.

Just have a separate area with mining access, but the shuttle being public would really make it a more interesting area less isolated of the rest of the station.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Kel-the-Oblivious » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:04 pm #228467

Then treat it like any other department on the station, and have who gets in regulated by the people working there.

I like the idea of a Foreman role a lot. Someone to maintain the facility, handle the minerals after processing, and dealing with station personnel when they arrive. Have their office be right there at the station dock, overseeing anyone who arrives. And like most other heads, they can give access to people who show up and want to help. Do not make it any more public than other departments onboard the station, just more closely watched at the front door, since most of the staff will be working around the back. Or maybe a little radio notification when the shuttle is launching. That would save some miners from airlock related deaths.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Dagdammit » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:11 pm #228469

I was thinking that aside from command module, there actually isn't a whole lot of access restrictions- like, maybe 1 room per module plus sone dept-locked lockers and crates. Keeps the compound functional when there's only a few souls on lavaland. Explorer suits and PKAs are still VERY much restricted access, though- everyone else gets these dorky poncho-looking "safety shawls" to wear instead for limited heat protection.

I'm not saying Jimmy Greytide yukking it up on lavaland compound won't be a problem, I'm saying it won't be YOUR problem. It's a job for lavaland sec officers and the Mining Overseer.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Dagdammit » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:22 pm #228473

As for shuttle: Displays on & off the shuttle show the time till next launch, doors automatically close and bolt 2 seconds before launch, don't unbolt till you get there. Spacing yourself mid-trip requires hacking doors or busting a wall/window.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Kel-the-Oblivious » Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:34 pm #228476

I love the idea that you want to expand mining. I love that. I want to see more people in the hellscape with me. I love the idea of a mining based RnD system involving the various hellscape relics. I'd love to see the chaplain involved with the unholy crap, maybe the librarian is able to copy certain sections of spell tombs, allowing them to produce a vastly diminished form of the spell, and needs X reagent from Y beast to make it. Give that lone ash drake scale a use after you make your three suits.

What I don't want is mining to become public for anyone and everyone at a whim. I do not like the fact the shuttle lands directly in the middle of the base, with no real barriers to stop someone from running all the way behind any of the modules and do whatever. I want to see Mining turned into a proper department, full of various roles and tasks to be performed by dedicated personnel. Having it be a grey shirt play ground feels the exact opposite of that. You won't always have a dedicated security officer to handle the asshole, and really, what department relies on security to handle greytiders? Having it be far out from the station proper makes it REQUIRE a good level of security built in, because security itself is going to take a LONG time to arrive, and you've got to fend for yourself until they arrive.

And I like that shuttle change. Saves a lot of hassle.

I am curious if you've considered giving the other Lavaland races a base make over as well. The Ashwalkers could use a make over and be more thematic in their base, getting piles of bone, sinew, and plating to work with at the start, deciding between making a lot of good gear, or equipping everyone decently and working as a mob. Maybe some special tribal crafted items unique to them, to make up for their lack of anything really interesting outside of bone versions of various armor and weapons. The free golems is just "Mining Autism Fort Mode" and could use a bit more objective than just "Mine, reproduce, maybe make RnD toys to futz around with" Maybe fixing their ship to launch off the planet.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby letshavecake » Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:03 pm #228478

Could maybe just keep the mining shuttle where it currently is on the station, behind a bunch of cargo doors
That way it would be just as "secure" as it already is, but if people are let in they can still do stuff

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Kel-the-Oblivious » Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:27 pm #228485

Allow public access to a well secure shuttle, with a strong security checkpoint right outside the dock, be it the Foreman or the security guard, either or. Yes, let people come down, and visit the department. Almost all department allow random passers by the chance to come by and visit them, talk, and see how things are. Make it so yes, you could break out the not airlock side of the shuttle, and sneak around the side and maybe breach a window or wall and break in, like any other department, but make it so getting easy and not robusting worthy levels of access requires permission from someone on staff.

I honestly would like to see mining as it's own department, ran by it's own pseudo head. It still requires aid from the station to make the most out of all it's gear, to spend the mineral wealth as they see best by either giving it to cargo or RnD, rather than them just running up and taking what they want. Give permission to anyone who wants to go exploring the hellscape, instead of just letting them go out and have a jolly good time. If you want to go be a space explorer, and venture into space you need permission to get an EVA suit, and space is with out a doubt safer than the hellscape, so long as you have an EVA suit.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Wyzack » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:18 pm #228488

Mining is a restricted area (moonlighting is something something)
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Dagdammit » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:27 pm #228555

Yeah but you don't need special access to actually go into space, because space's dangers are their own kind of access restriction. You just need special access to go into EVA and get the special gear that helps you survive out there. The lavaland equivalent, explorer suits and big oxygen tanks and mesons and bluespace shelter capsules, that's all behind restricted access barriers in Survey (and it could definitely be better to lock Survey down tighter the same way r-walls are used in Command, I'll think about it.)

I'm down for making the gates to the lavaland wastes mining-only, with switches in the sec gatehouse checkpoint both to open the inner/outer doors and to close shutters over them. (I'll try to get screencaps of the gatehouse from the .dmm later, to help the layout make a little more sense.)

(Also, did you catch that only miners get access to the front part of the mining shuttle? )

Here's the critical reason I disagree about making the compound itself mining-only: The work to be done there isn't mining.
  • Packing up minerals into crates and getting them to where they need to go is a job for a cargo tech.
  • Analyzing the weird stuff miners bring in (to learn about it and unlock new technologies) is a job for a scientist.
  • Running & maintaining medical equipment like a sleeper and cloning pod is a job for a medical doctor.
  • Keeping everything powered & building new structures is a job for an engineer.
  • And just like any other department, keeping the place secure (especially from NT's own personnel) is a job for security.
The job of shaft miners is to explore and to mine. They shouldn't have to personally haul minerals over to R&D in a stolen locker, and R&D shouldn't have to beg them to do so.
Last edited by Dagdammit on Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Dagdammit » Sun Nov 20, 2016 9:42 pm #228562

On review, one other factor I don't think anyone else has pointed out: The mining outpost is never going to be as carefully & effectively put together as the rest of the station, because the station was steadily assembled out in the vast emptiness of space while the mining outpost had to be set up on lavaland. There was no time to carefully analyze the terrain and meticulously plan a secure setup. Engineers ran around throwing up sandbags and turrets while sweating bullets & letting the armed escort fight back the local fauna enough to buy NanoTrasen this tiny little foothold. There might be another ruin further up the coast of a previous attempt to make a beachhead.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Kel-the-Oblivious » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:18 am #228665

Dagdammit wrote:The job of shaft miners is to explore and to mine. They shouldn't have to personally haul minerals over to R&D in a stolen locker, and R&D shouldn't have to beg them to do so.


And I am 100% alright with expanding mining into a larger department, much like medical, research, or engineering. Several different tasks to perform by the mining crew, instead of just the Shaft Miners. It doesn't need to be made public access. But please, tell me of any other department on the station that allows random crewmembers to come in, take supplies, and enter their worksite freely. If you are thinking about making Lavaland proper a sealed area, guarded by a security officer and locked behind access restrict, WHY should any of the department base be public access? What reason could there be coming to Lavaland if you aren't mining, or working on what the miners brought back?

I've said it several times now. Increase the crew size for mining. Give them dedicated personnel to fulfill the various tasks that you want to add in. DO NOT make it so random crew can just come on down and work in mining without getting the Okay from mining itself.
The master splicer, the bitch queen of mining, and some crazy ligger peddling you medicinal marijuana.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Dagdammit » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:02 am #228670

So if they can't freely come in and take your supplies (because those are behind miner-access doors in the Survey module) and can't freely enter your worksite (because the gates out into lavaland are also miner-access), does that resolve things somewhat?

I get restricting access to a department base. I don't get why your "department base" has to be an entire z-level. Moving the "miners only" line in the sand from "before you board the shuttle" to "after you get off the shuttle" doesn't seem that inherently bad.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Kel-the-Oblivious » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:24 am #228673

Because the reason this Z level exists is because of the department. If people want to randomly go exploring, there are plenty of Z-levels around the station that are far safer to explore, that require less prep work, and doesn't interfere with a department trying to do their job. Going into the Lavaland without proper equipment is a death sentence, and untrained crew have no reason to be there. It's like making RnD main hallway public access, because well, it's okay, people won't fuck with you, you're behind a single ID locked door.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Dagdammit » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:32 am #228679

Kel-the-Oblivious wrote:I am curious if you've considered giving the other Lavaland races a base make over as well. The Ashwalkers could use a make over and be more thematic in their base, getting piles of bone, sinew, and plating to work with at the start, deciding between making a lot of good gear, or equipping everyone decently and working as a mob. Maybe some special tribal crafted items unique to them, to make up for their lack of anything really interesting outside of bone versions of various armor and weapons. The free golems is just "Mining Autism Fort Mode" and could use a bit more objective than just "Mine, reproduce, maybe make RnD toys to futz around with" Maybe fixing their ship to launch off the planet.


It's not a priority at this time, but I've thought about it yes. Particularly with ash walkers:
-Make them speak a different language.You need universal recorders or some new R&D-produced translation tech to communicate with them in more than gestures.
-Offset this by changing the opening shpiel so it's less harsh- "be very wary of these aliens" rather than "invaders must die"
-I was thinking go further with "tribal crafting" and making pretty much everything in that category require a special tool which ash walkers have a bunch of in their nest. Engineers can make shaft miners bridges now, so I like Ash Walkers being the ones who get lava boats- everyone else has to trade with them or steal one of their crafting tools by force. (or just find one on a body, or in some other lavaland ruin. Good luck persuading other ash walkers to believe that though!)
-Multiple ash walker tribes with different appearance, flavor and minor mechanical perks (shields in your starting nest, that kind of thing. A minority of rounds have more than one tribe's nest.
-Give them an occult method of speaking to the rest of their tribe that only works during ash storms, because that's what carries their voice to their kin's ears.

Those are just the thoughts I've had so far. Would also be nice to remove or replace alot of modern tech in their starting nest, but I haven't tried to figure out how.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Kel-the-Oblivious » Mon Nov 21, 2016 5:51 am #228681

I like the new language rules, have it blocked out like monkey speech until you make a special headset piece that translates for you. Doesn't let you speak it, unless you do it over the radio. Share radios with the Ashwalkers.

Less omnicidal would be nice for the Ashwalkers. The best Ashwalker round I've ever seen ended with Cargo making a permanent outpost near the Ashwalker base, and moved botany supplies over to them so they could make Lavaland green again.

Instead of restricting primitive items, add a new batch of better items for the Ashwalkers to make. The Goliath Plate Cloak is currently in the works, and it's an AMAZING exosuit that grants storm proofing and some hefty armor saves. Make that Ashwalker exlusive, as well as some other neat things. Give them some form of ranged weapon to help hunt goliaths with would be nice. A Bone bow and arrow system could be neat.

I think having multiple tribes would be a bit bloaty. Maybe have them as a ensured spawn every round, instead of having their nest be RNG based, and have a bit more starting material to work with. Enough bone and sinew to make a few suits of armor, or a good sum of weapons, a more effective healing method, like the ability to transplant native flora with a basket or something, and be able to extract the various healing reagents directly to make tribal medicine with.

Ashstorm communication would be a god send.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby letshavecake » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:26 am #228687

Dagdammit wrote:
Kel-the-Oblivious wrote:I am curious if you've considered giving the other Lavaland races a base make over as well. The Ashwalkers could use a make over and be more thematic in their base, getting piles of bone, sinew, and plating to work with at the start, deciding between making a lot of good gear, or equipping everyone decently and working as a mob. Maybe some special tribal crafted items unique to them, to make up for their lack of anything really interesting outside of bone versions of various armor and weapons. The free golems is just "Mining Autism Fort Mode" and could use a bit more objective than just "Mine, reproduce, maybe make RnD toys to futz around with" Maybe fixing their ship to launch off the planet.


It's not a priority at this time, but I've thought about it yes. Particularly with ash walkers:
-Make them speak a different language.You need universal recorders or some new R&D-produced translation tech to communicate with them in more than gestures.
-Offset this by changing the opening shpiel so it's less harsh- "be very wary of these aliens" rather than "invaders must die"
-I was thinking go further with "tribal crafting" and making pretty much everything in that category require a special tool which ash walkers have a bunch of in their nest. Engineers can make shaft miners bridges now, so I like Ash Walkers being the ones who get lava boats- everyone else has to trade with them or steal one of their crafting tools by force. (or just find one on a body, or in some other lavaland ruin. Good luck persuading other ash walkers to believe that though!)
-Multiple ash walker tribes with different appearance, flavor and minor mechanical perks (shields in your starting nest, that kind of thing. A minority of rounds have more than one tribe's nest.
-Give them an occult method of speaking to the rest of their tribe that only works during ash storms, because that's what carries their voice to their kin's ears.

Eh, some of those are good ideas, but what they really need is more of a reason to stick to the nest and kill stuff near it, maybe going out and subjugating members of a nearby ruin to produce for them. They at least need a way to build up a village
And all of these lavaland races could really use something unique that they can make that's useful to each other and the people of the station, to foster trade and/or war between them all with actual reason and not just because some pubbie died and wants to get "valid" meta revenge on the station
But really, an ash walker rework would deserve its own thread, I'm sure a lot of people would like input on such a thing, especially since a lot of them would take issue with buffs to something they already don't like


And back on the whole "miner seekrit club" thing, even if it's not completely "public access", the very nature of this idea really does necessitate making mining into a hodgepodge of different people, acting like a dinky sub-department version of Command, and making the lavaland roles more fleshed out would only further necessitate that for defense and diplomacy purposes, essentially making it a forward base for the station and NT by extension, rather than just a mining operation

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Dagdammit » Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:00 am #228716

Or a forward base for a station that kinda IS a mining operation. I mean, I assume that's where virtually all the plasma on station comes from.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby kevinz000 » Mon Nov 21, 2016 11:12 pm #228861

As for ash storm and regular comms blocking. All I can say is telecoms code is scary.

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Dagdammit » Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:05 am #228889

kevinz000 wrote:As for ash storm and regular comms blocking. All I can say is telecoms code is scary.

Noted. It's not a vital feature for getting the basic compound up and running (unlike, say, the shuttles).

If it helps at all, one detail of implementation's that interference would be checked at two points: When the message is sent (applying when the sender is on lavaland & far from relay) and when messages are received (applying if person receiving is far from relay).

Also, would it help if I figured out a tcomms script that would create the interference effect? (like, are there some of those same scripts that get used under the hood?)

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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Kel-the-Oblivious » Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:11 am #228891

letshavecake wrote:

And back on the whole "miner seekrit club" thing, even if it's not completely "public access", the very nature of this idea really does necessitate making mining into a hodgepodge of different people, acting like a dinky sub-department version of Command, and making the lavaland roles more fleshed out would only further necessitate that for defense and diplomacy purposes, essentially making it a forward base for the station and NT by extension, rather than just a mining operation



And I believe you are right that lavaland should be expanded on for possible staff roles. I believe doubling the shaft miner base staff from 3 to 6 would, well, double the number of people properly set up to go forth into the hellscape. Then, add in some new roles for mining.

One dedicated security officer, completely with unique mining exclusive gear. A security explorer suit, a low pressure only high ammo gun to keep fauna away from the base.
One dedicated medical doctor, as a dedicated corpse seeker, a surgeon, and someone to keep miners in tip top shape between trips into the wild.
One dedicated xenologist, who's job it to exploit the various relics and buildings out there, to make them more useful for mining and to provide nice bonuses to the station.
The Foreman. The boss miner, who's job is to maintain the base, keep in communication with the miners, providing insight, intel, and to be someone who can do anything on the station the dedicated personnel are capable of, like any proper head on the station. Allow them to grant access to anyone who requests it and they feel would be helpful to mining.

Because the biggest problem I see with making it "Anyone and everyone can come down to Lavaland!" Is the return of the Away Mission bullshit. Everyone who is slightly bored can run down, and rush off into the hellscape for sweet loot and death. We had these back in the day, and they got removed for a very good reason.
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Re: Lavaland Compound (new mining outpost+mechanics)

Postby Dagdammit » Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:32 am #228895

From the Sprite thread:
letshavecake wrote:
FantasticFwoosh wrote:
MrEousTranger wrote:I think Xeno Archaeologist might be less well, uhh metagamey than giving the miners heavy ballistic weaponry

Not that guncrafting is a bad thing.


Depends on the loot drops from it and how they correlate with the station & personal gain (also besides coding in a new faux ore type, it'd be the easiest to do as long as you can provide newish artifacts and recycle some stuff to be artifact drops)

Looking briefly for a moment over at VG station where they have a similar setup but insist on derp-tools and REALLY HIGH SCIENCE CHARTS AND SHIT, some of the artifacts there are stuff or quite large objects not too different from our own anomalous crystal.

/vg/'s artifact system was stolen from bay years ago, and has been pretty much unchanged since
And bay's artifact system was a poor copy of goon's artifact system, with much more of a focus on digging up the artifacts rather than testing and using them

Wow, that is some proper SCIENCE right there, mad props to whomever put it together. I like it alot.

It'd be a pretty ambitious thing to port, probably beyond the scope of this project. Also, I really respect how it keeps the sci-fi flavor without getting into more cartoony (e.g. clowns) or occult stuff, but that also simultaneously makes me think it doesn't quite fit lavaland. In my head lavaland artifacts would sometimes need a chaplain or librarian's assistance.

Or maybe the thing beyond this project's scope is adding the ruins of a specific xeno civilization to lavaland. Right now it's like a bermuda triangle of sorts, all these wierd demonic ruins and crashed/stranded ships and bluespace warp accidents. A lost civilization would be cool, but this definitely works too, yanno?

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