/tg/Station 13

CPTANT

Notes are learning opportunities and references for yourself, :roll: Ridiculously patronizing. /viewtopic.php?p=657524#p657524]"One person does the same thing over and over for 3 years without getting banned for it somehow."[/url] An admin should not be using it as a reason to escalate in...

CPTANT

I don't want to sound like an asshole, but we don't administrate solely based on the general feelings of players. I'm sorry it upsets you to see that you got a note eight years ago for something really minor. Notes past a certain point aren't relevant but we have no efficient way to automatically r...

CPTANT

We keep those notes for record-keeping purposes (more important for more severe issues like rule 8/11 violations) but anything older than six months doesn't actually show up on your notes unless we click a button to explicitly show them to us. Admins don't take notes that old into account unless it...

CPTANT

Nobody cares you said "lol" 8 years ago IC so why is this information retained? Greying out isn't enough because it's still there and this feature isn't even implemented on like 3 out of 4 ways to view notes. None of this stuff matters after several years. All this leads to is dumb appeals...

CPTANT

What kind of bomb/trigger was it anyway?

CPTANT

CPTANT

Well that was a wall of text. Ultimately I don't think the ban reason:

'Attempted to morally relativize the genociding of children'

Is what was actually done. John called it pointless in most cases, an unfortunate reality and said people were deafened to the suffering of those we hate.

CPTANT

They would revise it if a maintainer told them to, like again most prs. Sprite feedback is usually non-constructive and the stuff that is can be ignored if the pr creator feels like it clashes with their design vision. Forcing people to abide by feedback isnt something that is done and since the co...

CPTANT

I just want them to explain themselves more clearly and not breakdown into tears running to their hugbox the moment the "white names" disagree. It would also help dispel the myth of how coders don't care what players think if spriters ever got told no that wasn't just them being told to d...

CPTANT

what does a player's desire to try to deescalate have to do with admin enforcement of escalation policy? If you are "Pissed off" someone is instigating IC conflict you obviously see it as a bad thing. It is a generalization of course, but more than half the people here are trying to come ...

CPTANT

But seriously, just scrap escalation policy if y'all hate actual IC conflict so much on Manuel. The thing to bear in mind is that the RP rules are still in effect side by side with escalation policy. You don't need to nix it entirely...but if people insist in following escalation policy while ignor...

CPTANT

But seriously, just scrap escalation policy if y'all hate actual IC conflict so much on Manuel.

CPTANT

ic minor crime… followed escalation policy… cremating someone’s (one piece of) gear because they picked a fight and lost is extremely in character and is genuinely good roleplay . don’t pick stupid fights. if you pick stupid fights then you should in character deal with the consequences. If you're ...

CPTANT

What's the point of escalation rules if people are getting banned for following it anyway?

CPTANT

Wouldn't this just drag development to a standstill and have a large number of resprites just get dragged through the dirt with even more player outrage when spritetainers (who are trying to make a more uniform style for TG) merge things they want regardless because the community doesn't know what ...

CPTANT

"most of the context we've since learned since this ban was place is only going to make the note look worse given the realizations of what the mime had actually done. which was, rode a skateboard, smacked into an officer once by mistake, and then once by lag, " This is such a bad take bec...

CPTANT

Honestly in my opinion there is a clear degradation in a lot of sprite quality going on currently because someone doesn't seem to understand that clarity of what it shows is more important than trying to ram every little detail into a sprite.

CPTANT

"most of the context we've since learned since this ban was place is only going to make the note look worse given the realizations of what the mime had actually done. which was, rode a skateboard, smacked into an officer once by mistake, and then once by lag, " This is such a bad take beca...

CPTANT

A jelly donut sir.

CPTANT

i think your open for killing if the item is irreplacible, which i believe is also how most admins view it Right, but whereas sec might shrug at you killing someone who stole something job critical from you, I doubt they'd be as lenient if that person was the Captain. Sounds like IC conflict to me,...

CPTANT

NecromancerAnne wrote: ↑Thu Oct 05, 2023 5:04 am I saw someone antimov themselves by uploading the law 'it is opposite day' after making themselves the only human.

But this means he is the only non human and the AI will kill all humans.

Effectively he is purged for the AI while the rest of the crew is kill.

CPTANT

His crime: interfering with an arrest - by bumping into the sec officer twice with a skateboard by accident and lag, while not resisting. And how exactly was sec supposed to know this when it was repeated by a character that by definition does not speak? General state of the station also definitely...

CPTANT

To sum up, there was no proof that the mime was a shitter besides : interfering with an arrest that might have been an accident - mime did not even try to fight trying to escape from the transfer centre that he was unlawfully kept in for at least 10 minutes without being told why or how long - no d...

CPTANT

You've been put in a cell for almost 10 minutes without any timer, then you hear lasers and the (arrested) detective starts talking about how the HoS is insane and is executing prisoners, don't tell me you also wouldn't try to break out. I would break out, but I wouldn't whine if I would choose to ...

CPTANT

I do not see why everyone sees that as such a dick move instead of normal IC conflict.

Captain: There is an existential threat to the station, you need to assist with your null rod

Chaplain: Nah

Captain is more than justified to demote the chaplain for not doing his job during an emergency.

CPTANT

Who cares if they didn't know the mime was arrested for aiding a changeling. That mime was also escaping prison and trying to free a detective charged with mutiny. Why do people find it odd you get shot when you jailbreak yourself and at the same time start a jailbreak with the brig full of high lev...

CPTANT

Aiding and abetting has always opened you up to the same punishment as the original offender.

CPTANT

Station destruction is just a hypothetical logical extreme. IC wise I would say that heads loosing at latestage revs is a good time to ask for nuke codes, so ye I would say that it's flavorful for even humans. Actually lemme try even more different perspective. Why did you upload this law? what was...

CPTANT

Agreed that Asimov can be interpreted as quite vicious, but it's also got it's own chapter in the silipol regulating it. If you were to slap a law on top of asimov, saying "revs are not human kill em." that would be chill. It would be quite ineffective cause AI has trouble discerning who ...

CPTANT

Once again the point is double standard of what good faith interpretation is for Asimov/purged vs custom laws. Asimov is is VICIOUS lawset without forbidding bad faith interpretations.

CPTANT

This is what happens when you change your own argument to the point it's meaningless, everyone. The argument has always been the same: The same rule 1 interpretation of what is good faith should be applied to both lawsets. The examples just crack down on the continued attempts to pretend Asimov is ...

CPTANT

Law 1 of Asimov states, "Law 1: You may not harm a human being or, through action or inaction, allow a human being to come to harm, except such that it is willing". If a non-human is harming a human, the AI must intervene. There is no wiggle room here, they must do something about it. An ...

CPTANT

You are starting to see the point! THEY ARE THE SAME! Except they're not, because Asimov requires someone to take a specific action (harming a human) whereas your law does not. There is nothing whatsoever in Asimov that states this, which makes this exactly the special pleading you do for Asimov un...

CPTANT

:words: "Prevent revolutionary takeover of the station by any means neccesary " You left this part out. Hope this helps! It does in fact not help because you are literally not adressing what I said Remember that Asimov has (as stated in the previous post) a clause that COMPELS them to tak...

CPTANT

Please refrain from insults, I was obviously talking about station wide purging. The problem here isn't identifying humans or revolutionaries, it is the amount of force you were allowed to use. Literally nothing in Asimov limits the harm the AI can do to non humans. You say it yourself, they could ...

CPTANT

Really depends on the job and the status of the round.

If you are converted late there really isn't much option usually but to join the carnage.

As engineer I usually build a flamethrower, grab an axe and burn the brig and cargo.

CPTANT

In itself this is an inconsistent application of rule 1 like stated previously so many times. Why do you not allow Asimov to kill all non humans to prevent harm because it would be a dick move, do not allow purged AI's to kill all humans because they aren't forced and it would be a dick move, But W...

CPTANT

"Possible future human harm" has never been something asimov's are particularly allowed to act on, and there's no direct compulsion in their lawset to kill non-humans. These are both in contrast to the lawset in discussion which is covered under 'freeform' - from the AI page "Freefor...

CPTANT

Also note that detonating the stations self destruct and killing everyone on board successfully "prevents revolutionary take over of the station", by removing the station. Sure, the AI can't do this, but if it could, I'd call it valid. Really a good law. Iain, it has been explained in the...

CPTANT

Wouldn't a better, way more sensible lawset for this situation be asimov, but with a 4th law saying something like: 4. Only heads of staff and security listed on records, and those they designate, are human. This doesn't immediately give a free pass for the AI to be a loose cannon, which would spar...

CPTANT

AI was purged before the law was uploaded, meaning it had no asimov laws preventing it from killing others. The "revolution" was "confirmed" by people saying "it's revs", not by actual tests (deconversion). "Any means necessary" means the AI can do anything i...

CPTANT

Not gonna lie, headmins making remarks that show they 100% didn't read the appeal isn't really great IMO.

CPTANT

i see no reason change this note. it's been almost a year since it was put on, was a warning to be careful with the laws you upload that have a 'kill a ton of people' clause, Like previously mentioned your interpretation is contrary to old silicon policy. There is no murder clause, silicon escalati...

CPTANT

I feel like you’re gotta be responsible for whatever outcome comes as a result of telling an AI to do something using any means necessary Like stated previously by any means necessary is fluff, it means nothing, laws are always by any means necessary. Also there were no bad outcomes. I find it fasc...

CPTANT

My mob speed would be the same as the tiger so just run away.

CPTANT

I feel like you’re gotta be responsible for whatever outcome comes as a result of telling an AI to do something using any means necessary Like stated previously by any means necessary is fluff, it means nothing, laws are always by any means necessary. Also there were no bad outcomes. I find it fasc...

CPTANT

I have no idea how anyone can justify mass murder (Including SECURITY?????) with these laws under old silicon policy. It just isn't there. And it literally did not happen either. Asimov is an example because Asimov doesn't allow you to kill non humans as a preventive action either. People are hung u...

CPTANT

i see no reason change this note. it's been almost a year since it was put on, was a warning to be careful with the laws you upload that have a 'kill a ton of people' clause, Like previously mentioned your interpretation is contrary to old silicon policy. There is no murder clause, silicon escalati...

CPTANT

"This law overrides all others." trying to override higher laws is always a cringe moment.

CPTANT

And you're asking for a permit to "late game murder everyone on sight" without even hard proof of a revolution? No, I quoted that rule as an example that command can respond proportionally to the situation. Secondly, the law upload to the AI is a clear "kill almost everyone" law...

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