PR#11689 Security Weapon Overhaul: Auto Rifle Edition

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:00 pm #118036

Link to PR: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/11689

This PR see's the addition of security "WT-550" auto rifles to the armoury and Warden's locker.

The Auto Rifles hold 20 rounds per magazine with each bullet currently dealing 25 damage per round (subject to change). The rifle can either fire in double burst fire mode or in single shot.

The Rifles are located in the new Tac Room of the armoury, with the exception of the one rifle the Warden gets in his personal locker for defending the Brig.

These Rifles offer security forces a way to gear up for combating large threats such as Nuke Ops or crew antags (Cult, Gang, Rev) and be able to hold their ground, the current inventory sec has is ineffective to a degree against these antags.

New Armoury

The Tac Room is behind a shuttle that anyone can access.

Feedback is apprciated

Nitrousoxide · Thu Sep 10, 2015 7:37 pm

Now this is a ballistics weapon i can get behind as long as it's behind a shutter that only red alert/delta can open.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:36 pm #118058

I quite like the concept of these rifles (though admittedly I'm not sure security needs more armoury based lethals than the 6 laser weapons and various shotguns). I don't see anything massively wrong with it, anyway.

I do not like the mapping, however. The current system has the *huge* strength that in the warden's office by the consoles, you can see the whole inside of the armoury. You are always aware, from your office, if someone is inside (though not always if they have made a quiet breach from space).

That is not the case with a much longer armoury, and it will necessitate regular patrols up there (which in turn makes the motion alarm silicons get totally useless). Equally, a lot of it looks like wasted space. You've got a three tile wide corridor going north in the middle. Why? If I were you, I would compress the whole thing. Squish the tactical section so it's only 2 tiles high instead of four (two gun racks, two armour racks if you like). Remove the lanes between shotgun, ablative, and secway key. Above all, avoid any wasted space. This is *the* high security area. Make it all visible from the warden's office if at all possible, even to the point of throwing the guns and armour in a couple of lockers behind an r-wall if you absolutely have to.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 8:59 pm #118068

You should add a poll to this too

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:04 pm #118070

The original design was better.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:11 pm #118072

NikNakFlak wrote:You should add a poll to this too

I think the idea is that he'll push it to the server (not merged) for a day trial like we did with pistols, THEN he'd throw a poll up. At least I hope so anyway.

I predict 50/50. I'm still tepid about security getting 4 free roundstart uzis + ammunition (note that these are straight up better in almost every way compared to the prototype SMGs that require copious research, diamonds, minerals, AND firing pins from the armory - how is that balanced?), but it's a more palatable concept compared to replacing their entire suite of equipment.

Also, firing pins have always been shit. I wish we could have lockboxes back.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:54 pm #118079

They are functionally identical to SABR's, except they do 25% more damage.
The SABR is gloriously redundant with this.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:49 pm #118094

lumipharon wrote:They are functionally identical to SABR's, except they do 25% more damage.
The SABR is gloriously redundant with this.

This. A roundstart weapon in the armory which is flat-out superior to the Prototype SMG? That is simply unacceptable. Please consider either buffing the SABR, nerfing the armory weapons, perhaps some mix of the two. Science's relationship to Security is to provide them with upgrades and superior equipment, not replacements (look to Cargo for that) or inferior products.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:01 pm #118099

Gun Hog wrote:
lumipharon wrote:They are functionally identical to SABR's, except they do 25% more damage.
The SABR is gloriously redundant with this.
This. A roundstart weapon in the armory which is flat-out superior to the Prototype SMG? That is simply unacceptable. Please consider either buffing the SABR, nerfing the armory weapons, perhaps some mix of the two. Science's relationship to Security is to provide them with upgrades and superior equipment, not replacements (look to Cargo for that) or inferior products.

Oh come on.

How often do you see those weapons getting made, let alone used?

It's extremely rare for the round to hit a point where sec EVER gets a hold of a Prototype SMG.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:19 pm #118106

Irregardless, the auto rifles need to do 20 brute, and the SABR needs a buff to compensate for this. It wasn't even that great normally, now it's pointless.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:40 pm #118113

Doing 20 brute would just make them a situational alternative to a laser gun (which does 20 burn). There's no point.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:37 am #118123

I was discussing in game about having RnD upgrades, such as attachments, as a way for RnD to provide items to security. From Bayonets to upgraded mags or something akin.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:06 am #118158

Cheimon wrote:Doing 20 brute would just make them a situational alternative to a laser gun (which does 20 burn). There's no point.

Except these shoot faster and are ballistic weapons.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:14 am #118160

Also they have burst fire capability (two shots), making this weapon great for crowd control whereas Lasers are not as great for crowd control.

@CosmicScientist: To be fair I've never seen a officer use that window. Any Op raid of the armoury can be caught out by the beeping of a bomb or the explosion that follows.

Danowar · Post by **Danowar** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:43 am #118166

The funniest thing about this new map layout is that any antag who has a spacesuit, or has been perma'd with an uplink/bluespace implant, could easily grab ALL the rifles with just one C4 next to the perma toilet.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:01 am #118168

Not a bad thing necessarily, its rare enough for people to prepare to break into the armoury from perma so I welcome a challenge.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:37 am #118179

Ok I've got a alternative sprite on offer, which sprite do we prefer.

Original:

Newer:

(I like the original but I want to offer alternatives)

AnonymousNow · Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:39 am

Steelpoint wrote:Ok I've got a alternative sprite on offer, which sprite do we prefer.

Original:

Newer:

Original one is fairly distinct, which I think is becoming annoyingly rare with some guns nowadays.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:57 am #118183

I've worked on a bit more tacticool looking Auto Rifle. Such as including a attached seclite.

Here they are

Scoped:

RDS:

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:58 am #118185

New one looks really bizarre in shape, and more like a wierd pistol.
the old one is better.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:31 am #118201

Tornadium wrote:
Gun Hog wrote:
lumipharon wrote:They are functionally identical to SABR's, except they do 25% more damage.
The SABR is gloriously redundant with this.
This. A roundstart weapon in the armory which is flat-out superior to the Prototype SMG? That is simply unacceptable. Please consider either buffing the SABR, nerfing the armory weapons, perhaps some mix of the two. Science's relationship to Security is to provide them with upgrades and superior equipment, not replacements (look to Cargo for that) or inferior products.
Oh come on.

How often do you see those weapons getting made, let alone used?

It's extremely rare for the round to hit a point where sec EVER gets a hold of a Prototype SMG.

SMGs are pretty common in rounds where R&D gets materials, and where the HoS is competent enough to at least KNOW that R&D can make those.

And if you really think that they are rarely used, why make them inferior to armory SMGs, to make sure that they are NEVER used?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:35 am #118203

Difference is that the SABAR's and their ammo can be mass produced. Not so much for the WT-550's.

Not-Dorsidarf · Fri Sep 11, 2015 8:01 am

Steelpoint wrote:Difference is that the SABAR's and their ammo can be mass produced. Not so much for the WT-550's.

On the one hand:
>Needs diamonds to make
>Needs science to have done research
>Needs a firing pin to work
>Does less damage
+Can be made in the protolathe

on the other hand
>Spares must be ordered from cargo
+More damage
+Available from roundstart
+free

And the laser rifle?
>Cannot burst fire
>Smaller ammo clip
>Less damage
>reflected by juggernauts and dual eswords, blocked by eshields
>basically a worse version of the egun
+ Can be recharged slowly at recharge points
+ Can shoot through windows
+ Available roundstart

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:31 am #118214

Grazyn wrote:
Tornadium wrote:
Gun Hog wrote:
lumipharon wrote:They are functionally identical to SABR's, except they do 25% more damage.
The SABR is gloriously redundant with this.
This. A roundstart weapon in the armory which is flat-out superior to the Prototype SMG? That is simply unacceptable. Please consider either buffing the SABR, nerfing the armory weapons, perhaps some mix of the two. Science's relationship to Security is to provide them with upgrades and superior equipment, not replacements (look to Cargo for that) or inferior products.
Oh come on.

How often do you see those weapons getting made, let alone used?

It's extremely rare for the round to hit a point where sec EVER gets a hold of a Prototype SMG.
SMGs are pretty common in rounds where R&D gets materials, and where the HoS is competent enough to at least KNOW that R&D can make those.

And if you really think that they are rarely used, why make them inferior to armory SMGs, to make sure that they are NEVER used?

I main security, They very rarely if ever get made.

The rounds are often over long before RD ever gets to that point.

I would just argue to remove the ballistic SMG from RD and replace it with a laser version.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:53 am #118217

So we have to remove the proto SMG, and sprite and code a new R&D energy weapon that must be somewhat in between the standard laser and the laser cannon/advanced energy gun. Or leave the now useless proto SMG. All because sec autorifles must be top-notch roundstart ballistic guns that you can also order in bulk.

Why not just buff the R&D SMG or nerf the autorifles, so sec can upgrade to the SMG just like the rest of the station can upgrade their roundstart tools to R&D tools?

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:54 am #118218

Why not just buff the lethal weapons that already exist in the armoury so you don't have to change or rebalance anything else? :^)

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:15 am #118226

Grazyn wrote:So we have to remove the proto SMG, and sprite and code a new R&D energy weapon that must be somewhat in between the standard laser and the laser cannon/advanced energy gun. Or leave the now useless proto SMG. All because sec autorifles must be top-notch roundstart ballistic guns that you can also order in bulk.

Why not just buff the R&D SMG or nerf the autorifles, so sec can upgrade to the SMG just like the rest of the station can upgrade their roundstart tools to R&D tools?

You could but as I said before they very rarely if ever get made.

I suppose the change wouldn't hurt because they're never a factor.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:24 am #118230

Or we can buff the SABR's to be more effective, such as having alternative magazine sizes that hold more bullets, so you can get 40 round mags instead of 20 for the SABR's thus justifying getting them over a WT-550.

E: I mean we can also do that for the Sec Auto Guns, make a RnD magazine that has double the capacity of the normal rounds, or that a mag holds different rounds that have higher AP but only holds 14 rounds per mag.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:31 am #118233

That's just power creep.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:33 am #118234

The SABR's have never really been a competitive weapon to begin with, not in comparison to the other weapons on offer.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:44 am #118236

Their total damage is on par with the revolver. Damage per click they're equal, and if you load a extra bullet into the chamber, the total damage is equal also.
They can also attach suppressors, and are easily producable.

They're the best constructable weapon in the game - save for xrays in situations where you can just shit on people through walls.

I'd gotten pap to increase their damage to 25 at some point, but someone reverted it for whatever reason.

Back on NT, someone (I thin it was pap also) made incendiary rounds for it, which was pretty hilarious and fun, if not very powerful.

whodaloo · Post by **whodaloo** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:28 pm #118243

Clearly you've never seen a murderboning scientist with an smg.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:02 pm #118250

whodaloo wrote:Clearly you've never seen a murderboning scientist with an smg.

They get shut down pretty quick unless sec is shit.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:08 pm #118253

>access to unlimited adrenal and freedom implants
>access to no drops, thermal, xray, reviver and cns implants
>shutdown quickly

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:17 pm #118254

lumipharon wrote:>access to unlimited adrenal and freedom implants
>access to no drops, thermal, xray, reviver and cns implants
>shutdown quickly

Adrenal and Freedom Implants arne't going to do shit if you just straight up murder him.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:18 pm #118255

Yup. He's been on a killing spree with an SMG? I'm probably not going to be taking him to the brig alive.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:08 am #118345

If you're shooting lethals instead of stunning first you're getting a face full of bullets whiile you're at it - also adrenals heal you.

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

Are you fucking joking

You've made the armoury tucking more impenetrable than the last PR WHERE YOU RETRACTED THE MAP CHANGES ADMITTING THEY WERE OVERPOWERED Jesus fuck I give up you have far more motivation to buff your favourite department than I have to whine about it

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 1:46 am #118363

The armoury is still as penetrable as before as I demonstrated with the images on the PR

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 12:37 pm #118425

For reference here's what a max cap bomb does to the armoury proposal.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:36 pm #118435

This is not the current image, this is the one-shutter version, I thought you were going with the multi-shutter one.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:50 pm #118437

Aside from the shutters its virtually identical.

Stickymayhem · Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:10 pm

There's a difference.

You also removed the fucking side window again so it can't be harassed and there'd even more fucking r-walls before. Where the locker room used to a deliberate weakpoint designed by people who actually give a flying fucking fuck about balance its now almost as strong as the armory.

I swear you went into this trying to solve the imaginary issue of "BUG: SECURITY LOSES A LOT OF THE TIME" instead of caring about the game.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:13 pm #118440

I'm not following, you can still break into the locker room via the two still present windows there.

E: When I said "identical" I was reffering to the two different armoury makeups I did.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:36 pm #118441

I could just push the locker room out two tiles to compensate or something equivalent if that's the major concern, it just never occurred to me that the one side window was a critical balancing factor.

Stickymayhem · Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:16 pm

The armoury being bigger means there's less damage to the brig and office, more r-wall remaining after any explosion and a larger area to defend from compared to a narrower breach point.

Plus there is only one entry point from space meaning anyone getting in will be in a direct line of fire from a safe and unreachable area.
At this point so whatever you want though I'm bored of this fight.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:20 pm #118474

And a syndie bomb can't even breach the GUNROOM, let alone anything else.
So yeah.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:46 am #118501

How much damage did the old Syndi bomb (3/7/14) deal to the current armoury?

Notice how the damage is mostly consistant with what happens with the new bomb cap on my proposed armoury?

Also Lumi the image I showed earlier clearly shows the gun room being breached.

Post by **lumipharon** » Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:18 am #118513

It damaged one wall section, didn't destroy it.

That means you still can't steal or space those weapons unless you have an emag/go through the warden's office.

Stickymayhem · Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:20 am

>Using a maxcap explosion when syndiebombs are 99.994% the thing used to break into the armory.

I hope you're not doing that on purpose.

Also that explosion didn't touch the APCs, didn't breach the wardens office and basically had a minimal affect on the brig at all.