Major Cult Refactor

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:30 am #116449

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/11436
I'm not going to assume that everyone on the forums knows code, so I'm going to list the effects of it here.

Rather than a single rune type handling all rune functions, they are now separated into different types
Runes are easier to use and more responsive
Code has been optimized and updated to current standards
Nar-Sie has a new summon sound
Runes can be examined by cultists to determine their function and name
Runes are referred to as Rites and have different names (Teleport = Rite of Translocation, etc.) with the exception of the rune to summon Nar-Sie
The rune to summon Nar-Sie now has a detailed, 3x3 sprite
Sacrifice runes now only require one cultist
Conversion runes work with less than three cultists, but require some time
Blood boil runes now explode when used
Armor runes now only give a specific set of armor rather than snowflek sets
Runes now use a grammar system. Instead of researching words and being able to write runes based on that, runes are now drawn by entering the combination of words to do so. For instance, a teleport rune is "ire ego". Combinations to additional runes are revealed by converting and sacrificing. Rune combinations are static across rounds, meaning that people who can memorize them are able to have all runes from the beginning.
Summon Cultist and Free Cultist have been combined, take less damage to use, require only two cultists, and don't stun any of the cultists involved.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:47 am #116451

Why remove the initial talisman thing?

Also can you make certain multi-person runes function (as suggested at one point) if the other's aren't in the 3x3 area around it?

Edit: Also boo to the name changes to the sword/robes etc.
"cult sword" comes off much nicer then "nar'sian longsword." We had that fuckhuge thing previously about making all the other weapons genericly named, remember?

Edit 2: The code is indeed quite retarded - which runes are you removing?

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:48 am #116452

Xhuis wrote:I'm not going to assume that everyone on the forums knows code, so I'm going to list the effects of it here.

THANK YOU.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:37 am #116456

Awww, I like the current summon sound much better.

Thu Sep 03, 2015 4:45 am

love it love it love it love it love it love it love it holy shit
that nar'sie has risen sound is pants-shittingly spooky

Remie Richards · Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:22 am

The new summon sound is rubbish, it's boring and not even remotely scary/spooky/etc.
You're using the OLD ass cult robe sprites? No, they look hideous, they were replaced for a reason.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:49 am #116465

I actually kindo f like them.

The new summon sound is objectively better than the old stock used everywhere 9281491274198247 times The Hidden IM HERE

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:52 am #116467

> No supply talismans to get dat construct cult going or getting an emergency paper/etc.
> Still no way of telling what each paper even corresponds to on-the-fly.

Also Xhuis, be specific what runes you outright removed. It's hard to pass judgement without knowing that.

Also, 5 metal and 5 glass for soulstone/construct spam is OP as hell. I know personally I would treat it like some sort of bizarro gang, grab 100 metal and 100 glass from any fucking where, then go around stunning -> cultsword -> soulstoning half the crew and popping them in shells that I can shit everywhere for around 3 victims, then I'd just follow around a few juggs and exponentially grow my army in an obscene fashion. The reason it was plasteel is because it's relatively hard to come by, so construct production tends to be limited by their artificer production. Also, for this very same reason, the supply paper allowed you to summon a couple starter shells to start a construct army no matter who you are, without plasteel. Plasteel just let you get MORE quickly.

Also, spawning with a tome is A-grade foolishness. Running around with a paper hat and get searched/arrested by sec? Won't know a thing. With a fucking tome? Too fucking bad. Same with the cult structures. Box isn't large enough to have permanent strongholds to be a thing, sans in rapid conversion gamemodes (rev, gang).

Basically this feels like a bizarre code cleanup with tacked-in changes that no one asked for. Like honestly, figure out if people would find whatever your end-goal here fun, instead of just going ahead and YOLO coding an old as fuck gamemode which, while arcane, has it's moments.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:55 am #116476

You can still name your talismans to label them.

When I can be assed I usually make a folder of like 30 talismans and hand them out.
Also teleport talismans are different looking, unlike every other talisman for some reason.

Kel · Post by **Kel** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:10 pm #116492

Everything seems good minus those robes and no more round start talisman. Seriously, those robes look fucking awful.

TechnoAlchemist · Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:39 pm

I've always been fond of the red robes but the current ones fit the vibe more.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:57 pm #116561

All right, I'll make some changes. Old robes are being restored, as is the supply talisman. The summon sound is getting substantially quieter.

lumipharon wrote: Also teleport talismans are different looking, unlike every other talisman for some reason.

Teleport talismans have the last word of the rune written on them to distinguish them from normal talismans. The functionality is remaining in the update, but with the keyword.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:20 pm #116580

I lowered the volume of the Nar-Sie summon sound (check link in OP), re-added cult robe sprites to normal, changed some item names and descriptions, and re-added supply talismans.

Sweaterkittens · Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:00 pm

I love all the new stuff this adds, but I'm with a few of the other posters on the sound; I'm fan of the original more, as it was suitably terrifying. I don't see any reason why the two couldn't be combined - have the loud, world-rending thunder sound first, a slight pause, then "I'm here".

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:16 am #117114

Pretty big update, check OP for details. Also, this is merge-ready.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:40 am #117127

I like those changes very much, especially the conversion one. When are we getting them live?

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:44 am #117133

InsaneHyena wrote:I like those changes very much, especially the conversion one. When are we getting them live?

As soon as I can finish them up - if I had to give a rough estimate, I'll finish by Wednesday. As for live, it's up to if this gets merged, and if so, when the server updates.

Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:33 am

Sacrifice runes now only require one cultist

great

Conversion runes work with less than three cultists, but require some time

awesome, i think i actually originally thought of this and i'm really glad to see it get used

Blood boil runes now explode when used

why not make them single use instead so that they're not kamikaze runes

Runes now use a grammar system. Instead of researching words and being able to write runes based on that, runes are now drawn by entering the combination of words to do so. For instance, a teleport rune is "ire ego". Combinations to additional runes are revealed by converting and sacrificing. Rune combinations are static across rounds, meaning that people who can memorize them are able to have all runes from the beginning.

uhhhhhhh
this will be interesting
prepare your pastebins

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:17 am #117340

Sac runes only require 1 cultist currently (if the victim is dead. Also your actual sac target always needs 3.), so I assume by this you mean saccin non dead/crit people only requires 1 person?
That just takes us back to the days of stun drag over rune and repeat - only it's for constructs.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:55 am #117352

lumipharon wrote:Sac runes only require 1 cultist currently (if the victim is dead. Also your actual sac target always needs 3.), so I assume by this you mean saccin non dead/crit people only requires 1 person?
That just takes us back to the days of stun drag over rune and repeat - only it's for constructs.

They could do it like Bay does, where saccing needs 1-3 cultists, and instead of insta-gibbing, sets that target on fire and permastuns them so long as the cultists are standing over them.

To make better sense of this because I don't know of a better way to word it, if Urist McShitter gets stunpapered, cuffed, headset stripped, then drug over a rune, as it is now, he'd be 1 click ded.
With Bay sac, when Urist was on top of the rune, 1-3 cultists would stand over him, and upon them clicking on the rune, Urist would be set on fire. Urist would be unable to move or scream, and eventually he would burn into dust, leaving a soulstone. If any of the cultists move during any part of this process or are muted, the chanting stops, the sacrifice is halted, the fire goes out, and Urist can move, scream, and run away, with the amount of cultists making it take longer or quicker (1 is slower than 3).

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:01 am #117354

Okay that's pretty fucking brutal.

Does Bay also have it where being on fire near someone will catch them on fire because I see bad things happening otherwise.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:04 am #117355

Saegrimr wrote:Okay that's pretty fucking brutal.

Does Bay also have it where being on fire near someone will catch them on fire because I see bad things happening otherwise.

I don't think so, but it would be kinda hilarious having a cultist get bumped into by another one while he's chanting and have to sit through the entire ritual whilst on fire.

Also if I'm not wrong, being sacced in this way makes the victim emote wordlessly screaming, which is terrifying in a high RP server.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:20 pm #117519

I'll update sacrifice of living people to require three people like it used to.

Absalom · Post by **Absalom** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:55 pm #117530

Xhuis wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/11436
I'm not going to assume that everyone on the forums knows code, so I'm going to list the effects of it here.

Runes now use a grammar system. Instead of researching words and being able to write runes based on that, runes are now drawn by entering the combination of words to do so. For instance, a teleport rune is "ire ego". Combinations to additional runes are revealed by converting and sacrificing. Rune combinations are static across rounds, meaning that people who can memorize them are able to have all runes from the beginning.

So you can just bloodboil/everything straight from the beginning? Am I reading this right?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 8:58 pm #117533

Reflecting back on this, having cultists have access to ALL runes at round start is more than a little absurd. Cult every round will devolve into the cultists rushing the brig and dropping 5 blood boil runes and just sit on them scratching their asses, eventually they will slowly push up the waves of runes until they box sec in and finish them off with 1 shot crit tidal waves of death. Then they get sec gear and just win the game.

My proposed fix to this is to make runes completely randomized at round start, making it so the only way to unlock them is via sacrificing like intended. As it is right now, cults just kinda twiddle their thumbs until the cargo cultist in the mining dorms eventually finishes their research, and from there they just either snowball or were found out way earlier and start this prolonged goose chase where sec has no idea who the cultists are due to there being no way to check for cult status, and from there the cultists will either get killed off in one decisive battle, or will totally meme on sec with rapid conversion and blood boil rune kamikazes. This is not in any way fun for the crew or security because aside from the null rod (which gets spaced every single round or gibbed along with the chaplain) there are NO counters to cult magic. That blood boil rune which is literally a 1 shot crit? You see it, you're dead. That stun paper which allows the cult to 1 click GGNORE you, cuff you, and strip your headset, then either convert of sacrifice you? Nah, you're fucked. There either needs to be more counters to cult magic, or cult magic in general needs some serious nerfs.

Also conversion runes working with less than 3 cultists? No. That's stupid. Cult requiring 3 people to do anything is the only reason they're balanced, and letting them go solo like this will such a huge buff that it'll be ridiculous. Every round will devolve into : Make Stun Paper > Click a dude once > sit there for X seconds to convert > Now you got 2 dudes to make stun paper and do the same process > snowball.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:18 pm #117549

Zilenan91 wrote:Reflecting back on this, having cultists have access to ALL runes at round start is more than a little absurd. Cult every round will devolve into the cultists rushing the brig and dropping 5 blood boil runes and just sit on them scratching their asses, eventually they will slowly push up the waves of runes until they box sec in and finish them off with 1 shot crit tidal waves of death. Then they get sec gear and just win the game.

My proposed fix to this is to make runes completely randomized at round start, making it so the only way to unlock them is via sacrificing like intended. As it is right now, cults just kinda twiddle their thumbs until the cargo cultist in the mining dorms eventually finishes their research, and from there they just either snowball or were found out way earlier and start this prolonged goose chase where sec has no idea who the cultists are due to there being no way to check for cult status, and from there the cultists will either get killed off in one decisive battle, or will totally meme on sec with rapid conversion and blood boil rune kamikazes. This is not in any way fun for the crew or security because aside from the null rod (which gets spaced every single round or gibbed along with the chaplain) there are NO counters to cult magic. That blood boil rune which is literally a 1 shot crit? You see it, you're dead. That stun paper which allows the cult to 1 click GGNORE you, cuff you, and strip your headset, then either convert of sacrifice you? Nah, you're fucked. There either needs to be more counters to cult magic, or cult magic in general needs some serious nerfs.

Also conversion runes working with less than 3 cultists? No. That's stupid. Cult requiring 3 people to do anything is the only reason they're balanced, and letting them go solo like this will such a huge buff that it'll be ridiculous. Every round will devolve into : Make Stun Paper > Click a dude once > sit there for X seconds to convert > Now you got 2 dudes to make stun paper and do the same process > snowball.

I disagree. Bloodboil is used once every year, at most. Getting three people around a rune is almost impossible, and relying 100% of sacrifices for words is really shit when you're reliant on stunpapers to do anything.

It depends how long it takes for one person to convert. If it's like a minute and a half, (requiring a chair and cuffs) I don't think it'd be much of a problem.

Regardless, cult has always been THEOERETICALLY OP, but realistically UP given how shit teamwork is in this game.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:27 pm #117551

It takes one full minute to convert a person solo. During this time, they have to be on the rune and neither of you can move or perform any actions.
Blood boil runes now cause an explosion at the rune when invoked in addition to simply vanishing. This is intended to balance the rune.
I replaced research words because it was a pointless grind. Making runes randomized again would do the same. The new way of scribing runes (entering the grammar manually) will also increase the time it takes to draw a rune. There's actually a message to nearby observers when someone starts drawing a rune, as well, which will cause people who draw runes in hallways to have a harder time of it.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:41 pm #117552

Currently any semi competent person can lock themself in a dorm room or some shit and discover all the words in a few minutes.
And even whenthey do, 80% of runes don't get used, and bloodboil certainy doesn't get spammed everywhere.

Bloodboil is ONLY awful on the shuttle, because fucking all the crew is in one easy to hit room.

callanrockslol · Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:52 am

Blood boil is fine, you aren't factoring just how fucking useless the average SS13 player is at anything resembling teamwork.

Wed Sep 09, 2015 8:55 pm

Xhuis wrote:It takes one full minute to convert a person solo. During this time, they have to be on the rune and neither of you can move or perform any actions.
Blood boil runes now cause an explosion at the rune when invoked in addition to simply vanishing. This is intended to balance the rune.
I replaced research words because it was a pointless grind. Making runes randomized again would do the same. The new way of scribing runes (entering the grammar manually) will also increase the time it takes to draw a rune. There's actually a message to nearby observers when someone starts drawing a rune, as well, which will cause people who draw runes in hallways to have a harder time of it.

Just have them pick runes from a list.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:39 am #117871

It's not about how inefficient they can convert solo, it's that they can. The only reason cult isn't objectively superior over other team antags is because they require 3 cultists to convert. Now they are shadowling 3.0, rev 4.0, gang 2.0, they can do literally everything.
Have a ridiculously long stun that is uncounterable ala old parasting? Yep. Dedicated AI killer ala syndicate borg except better? Yep. Have robust armor and weapons that is better than anything the entire station can create outside of mechs? Yep. Have something that literally one shots an entire screen full of people? Yep. Can they endlessly shit out unstunnable, wall-breaking, jaunting, structure creating antagonists? Yep, even if some of these functions aren't all on the same one. One of your buddies get cuffed and full stripped? Nah, fuckers teleporter out, slapped on some armor and a sword, and he's ready to go!

Cult can do everything. It's ridiculous. And now that they have access to all of this except for free eswords/armor AT ROUND START. They need a nerf.

The way to perhaps start this kind of a nerf off would be to remove blood boil. One could say IMPROVE DON'T REMOVE but blood boil as a concept is utterly flawed and unusable in any kind of way that could ever be considered balanced. Even if you could make the argument that the majority of people who play cult are utterly retarded, what the fuck is this. An uncounterable huge AOE instant kill. For nothing. On the off-chance that you have cultists that aren't full autismo, they just steamroll no problem, and this is a problem with the mode in general because the very mechanics of cult just feel unfair.

Stun Paper needs a serious nerf as well. It's the opposite of fun to be one clicked, cuffed, headset removed, and then drug off to be sacced/converted. One could argue that cult needs this, but they actually do not. Cult has a million and one ways to go loud and construct/armor spam. Stun paper is literally old parasting except it costs you basically nothing and you can make tens of these things in any given round, making them be effectively unlimited.

Another thing that's completely pants-on-head is astral journey. I genuinely have no comment. No really. What is this. This is one of the worst designed things in the entire game. This is literally metagaming in IC form. The fact that you can ghost and instantly find out where your entire opposition is, what their equipment is, what their defenses are, how many of them there are, and listen to their conversations is just... Wow. I have no words.

Constructs themselves are mostly fine, actually. The stupidity that was juggernaut laser reflect either got nerfed into the ground or removed (I don't know which), artificers are basically enablers of construct spam and aren't too robust themselves and are also fine, but wraiths... have some problems. Wraiths deal a ridiculous amount of brute damage per attack and I believe are also faster than humans. There's already quite a few problems already, but none that can't be dealt with due to their low health. But what's really the icing on the cake is the fact that they're space immune, and can JAUNT
WHAT THE FUCK
Their already absurd movement speed, robust brute damage, and now their ability to jaunt on top of this makes them literally the PERFECT AI killer that physically cannot be countered. What the fuck. If I could pay 90 TCs as operatives for a Wraith, I would buy it literally every single time over the borg because of how good it is both as baseline stats, and as an uncounterable AI killer.

Yet another gripe I have about Cult is their objectives. It's not how they do their objectives that's the problem it's what they are. You see, one cult objective is to summon Nar-Sie, god of death. This requires nine cultists and their sacrifice objective completed. If they do this, it is a guaranteed win. I don't mean a win as in greentext, either, nobody actually cares about greentext. I mean it's a win in the sense that the cult will murder everyone on the entrie station. The entire crew will eventually be knockout gassed and drug to their god, gibbed, and turned into infinitely respawning harvesters. Did I mention that ghosts can also respawn as harvesters as icing on the cake? Because they do. The ghosts then go on to stungas everyone else, increasing the cults numbers atleast double than what they were before due to said ghosts.

The other cult objective is to get 15 cultists on the shuttle. This is significantly harder because in a situation where literally the entire server is full, this would require 1/4 of it being cult. Yeah. There's some pretty obvious problems with this.

The last thing that's not so much a minor gripe, and not so much a major gripe, is cult detection. You see, say there are two assistants. One is a cult, and one is not. Neither had a tome or paper on them, so neither can be incriminated simply by that. The only option is to either A. feed them 35 units of holy water and wait aproximately 4 years, 8 months, 2 weeks, and 5 days for one of them to uncult. or B. kill them both.

Option A is basically impossible logistically without a chaplain, because ordering it from cargo is limited, will run out very fast, needs to be ordered and then waited on for five more minutes to get to you, and even then I believe a holy water container is only 75 units (I could be wrong on this) and there are only three containers of this in total. This is a mere 6 attempts at deconverting, and due to there being absolutely no way to check if someone is a cultist, you cannot be sure if someone is or is not one without appropriate contraband. The way to fix this could be something like shadowlings, where if you strip off X piece of clothing, you would see "several dripping, raw wounds, seemingly just healed" confirming cult status, because as it stands, there is no reasonable way for security to check if someone actually is a cultist if they strip everything on them and find nothing, and permabrigging them does nothing either because teleport rune memes. This is a huge problem, as is the cults ability to INSTANTLY stop deconversion by slapping them with their book.

Option B is you just killed two people and the AI is bolt shocking all the doors and sending its cyborg horde to stop you. And if I'm not wrong, even if they're dead, the cultists can STILL teleport them out, so literally the only way to permanently deal with a cultist is to deconvert them.

WAAAAL OF TEEEEXT

Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:02 am

Zilenan91 wrote:no dont buff cult nerf it

have you literally never played cult

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:17 pm #117968

Zilenan91 wrote: Constructs themselves are mostly fine, actually. The stupidity that was juggernaut laser reflect either got nerfed into the ground or removed (I don't know which), artificers are basically enablers of construct spam and aren't too robust themselves and are also fine, but wraiths... have some problems. Wraiths deal a ridiculous amount of brute damage per attack and I believe are also faster than humans. There's already quite a few problems already, but none that can't be dealt with due to their low health. But what's really the icing on the cake is the fact that they're space immune, and can JAUNT

Funfact: The reflection code on jugg's hasn't changed since I originally implemented it.
Maybe you finally got gud.

Incomptinence · Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:53 pm

Wraiths are fragile 75 health with no way to revive (babies like you ghosting to prevent shardings being circumvented by putting ghosts in might help though) constructs don't get crit or even a body for a lazarus. They deal 25 damage about esword level for civvies but sec will take another hit at least. Wraiths are quite unpopular you might become one if you ask for it as a cultist and kill yourself to just got wreck that AI people generally don't want them and go arty jugger. It's more of a mercy killing anyway cult is total chaos from an asimov perspective and a default AI will almost always be near irrelevant due to incomplete information after a few token efforts against the odd really dumb/unlucky starter cultist.

Jaunt is the wraith it is their signature ability that particular jaunt version is different from wizard ethereal jaunt and is just for them, you take that you gut everything. Also complaining magic suits of armour are space immune can you get more rabid? We can't even have themes around people like you. Better get nar sie a space suit and tuck your elder god in tight space is coming.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:52 pm #117984

Malkevin wrote:
Zilenan91 wrote: Constructs themselves are mostly fine, actually. The stupidity that was juggernaut laser reflect either got nerfed into the ground or removed (I don't know which), artificers are basically enablers of construct spam and aren't too robust themselves and are also fine, but wraiths... have some problems. Wraiths deal a ridiculous amount of brute damage per attack and I believe are also faster than humans. There's already quite a few problems already, but none that can't be dealt with due to their low health. But what's really the icing on the cake is the fact that they're space immune, and can JAUNT
Funfact: The reflection code on jugg's hasn't changed since I originally implemented it.
Maybe you finally got gud.

I thought I remembered a coder talking about nerfing it though, so I guess they never did it.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:58 pm #117986

Incomptinence wrote:Wraiths are fragile 75 health with no way to revive (babies like you ghosting to prevent shardings being circumvented by putting ghosts in might help though) constructs don't get crit or even a body for a lazarus. They deal 25 damage about esword level for civvies but sec will take another hit at least. Wraiths are quite unpopular you might become one if you ask for it as a cultist and kill yourself to just got wreck that AI people generally don't want them and go arty jugger. It's more of a mercy killing anyway cult is total chaos from an asimov perspective and a default AI will almost always be near irrelevant due to incomplete information after a few token efforts against the odd really dumb/unlucky starter cultist.

Jaunt is the wraith it is their signature ability that particular jaunt version is different from wizard ethereal jaunt and is just for them, you take that you gut everything. Also complaining magic suits of armour are space immune can you get more rabid? We can't even have themes around people like you. Better get nar sie a space suit and tuck your elder god in tight space is coming.

I'm not complaining that all constructs are space immune, that's actually totally fine. The fact that they can jaunt and are also by default faster than normal humans (atleast as far as I know) is what the problem is. Also as far as I know, wraith jaunt is exactly the same as ethereal jaunt just with a different fade in/out sprite.

Also I'd argue that wraiths are better for clearing out non-sec people than juggernauts are unless they all have shotguns. They run faster than them, 4 shot unarmored people, can jaunt for a clutch escape, and if there's an arty to back them up they can keep going back in to try and stop any resistance. Honestly, they're very good, but there's nothing blatantly overpowered about them as I said, it's just that all these traits together make them the perfect AI killer which is a bit of a problem.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:57 pm #118001

Zilenan91 wrote:
Malkevin wrote:
Zilenan91 wrote: Constructs themselves are mostly fine, actually. The stupidity that was juggernaut laser reflect either got nerfed into the ground or removed (I don't know which), artificers are basically enablers of construct spam and aren't too robust themselves and are also fine, but wraiths... have some problems. Wraiths deal a ridiculous amount of brute damage per attack and I believe are also faster than humans. There's already quite a few problems already, but none that can't be dealt with due to their low health. But what's really the icing on the cake is the fact that they're space immune, and can JAUNT
Funfact: The reflection code on jugg's hasn't changed since I originally implemented it.
Maybe you finally got gud.

I thought I remembered a coder talking about nerfing it though, so I guess they never did it.

That was me, but I pulled the update because of robustins autism

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:34 pm #118016

I suppose there would be little point to the PR now, what with ballisticsec being a thing, but yeah, constructs are otherwise fine tbh. Juggers are slow as hell and if there's a viro who's spreading stimulant viruses (probably not going to unless virology gets fixed) then juggs basically become irrelevant without outstanding knock down RnG because of tile throwing.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:47 am #118129

That nar'sie rune looks like shit Xhuis

Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:49 am

Bombadil wrote:That nar'sie rune looks like shit Xhuis

i think it's alright