Self-surgery and surgery delay removal

[bandit]

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12453

Goof has not posted a feedback thread so this is the feedback thread, please provide feedback, here and/or on the PR.

[TechnoAlchemist]

The surgery delays are beneficial so that people can stumble upon you or save you when you're getting forced into some surgery.

Self surgery is dumb and shouldn't return. Needing to rely on others for advanced medical procedures is beneficial both mechanically and from a role play perspective.

[PKPenguin321]

+1 for self surgery and i think less surgery delays would be cool but not 100% necessary

[Amelius]

+++ for self-surgery. Added so many different tricks, made augmentations and implants actually vaguely viable for antags despite taking longer to implement, permitted changing your identity if you had the right tools and a good deal of time, allowed you to hide things in yourself for permabrigging and so forth. There was *so* much that you could do that is simply impossible right now.

Removing it basically removed a whole chunk of antag potential, and removed the viaibility of implants for antags. Seriously, why would ANY antag trust themselves with an unknown factor that can kill them, accidentally or not during the process with zero resistance, on top of requiring a second willing person to do it in the first place. To make things worse, the implants require quite high tech levels along with minerals to get anything, which are sparsely used at best in the first place because it requires so many different factors to converge to obtain and implant, and even then it's an extraordinarily risky procedure that frankly, isn't worth the risk or time investment. Basic augments were nerfed to the ground anyway, requiring ridiculous amounts of fuel/wire to heal even the simplest damage.

Then cavity implants are literally never used these days, ESPECIALLY by antags because saying something like 'implant this bomb into me' is an easy way of getting yourself lynched by a nearby validhunter. That said, it's not like if self-surgery were back it wouldn't be fucking obvious to the room that you're implanting a bomb, but at least you can seek out a safe place to operate on yourself for a few minutes, at the cost of being crazy vulnerable over that period. Seems balanced to me.

TLDR: Self-surgery is great, lower delays would be fantastic but the former is more important. You could tack on a failrate for self-surgery if you need to.

[Cheimon]

Self surgery was far too good. The only real downside was that you could screw up from a bed, which didn't have a very big effect on you (I think it's minor brute damage, if anything). Mechanically it looked entirely ridiculous (you're systematically buckling yourself to and from a bed with various tools in your hands, with no anaesthetic or apparent reaction to opening yourself up). It even created (well, exposed) a certain type of player who refused to have even routine surgery done by anyone but themselves. And why would they? Apart from roleplay, all having someone surgery you meant was the added risk of them killing you halfway through.

However, it did create some interesting mechanics, particularly for solo antags and for those that wanted time consuming and dull surgeries done on themselves at no apparent benefit to the surgeon (so, mostly augmentation). Because of that, it ought to return in some form.

But at least give it a downside. Previously stated and mechanically interesting options include:

-A self-surgery machine, which can be made to malfunction (EMP? Hacking?) or anaesthetises you for the duration of the surgery (you can load it with implants). Like this NSFW one from Prometheus.

-A way for players to lower themselves onto surgery tables and reach for tools on a nearby table (but which takes a few seconds to get up from), reducing the ridiculousness of buckle/unbuckle.

-A requirement to get drunk or high on morphine/other painkillers before you could make the surgery work.

All of these would make self surgery viable for traitors but make it look not totally stupid and also potentially introduce some genuine costs (not just, whoops, I'll apply a bruise patch when I'm done). They're even more like real life and/or science fiction!

[lumipharon]

>having to actually rely on other players for hugely beneficial augments

Gasp, the horror.

ambivalent on removing the delays - they're honestly so short now I don't see the reason to remove them.

[THE MIGHTY GALVATRON]

Self Surgery is cool, just like have it for simpler surgeries, like removal of foreign objects and the like.

[iyaerP]

I fully support the glory that is self speed surgery.

[Alex Crimson]

So fucking powergamey. Self-surgery was removed for a reason, and it should stay that way. No reason to remove the surgery delay either.

Terrible PR that fucks with game balance for no reason, but will probably get merged anyways.

[Amelius]

So fucking powergamey. Self-surgery was removed for a reason.

The actual reason was 'it's a bug', because it was. The tag was 'bug squashing' and so forth.

[Saegrimr]

The PR comments and goof's reaction are pretty comedy gold. :^)

[Super Aggro Crag]

this is foolish

[Jacough]

Make it so trying to do self surgery without morphine or copious amounts of alcohol has a chance to fail each step due to pain. If you fail the step your character screams loudly and passes out for a moment. Doesn't make surgery from doctors obsolete due to the fact that they can just do it quicker and without sedating you. Also helps that self surgery would probably require a bit of a recovery time after the surgery during which you'd have to rest and let all that booze or morphine wear off.

[Super Aggro Crag]

make it so if you try to do self surgery a boot launches itself out of your computer monitor and mangles your cock into a bloody paste

[Alex Crimson]

So fucking powergamey. Self-surgery was removed for a reason.

The actual reason was 'it's a bug', because it was. The tag was 'bug squashing' and so forth.

A bug that was only fixed when everyone started using it for shit like turning themselves into robocop or that augmentation rubbish.

[iamgoofball]

hey faggots here's some dank memes:

i'm re-adding the delays but cut in half because we all seem to agree in the PR comments that this is an acceptable compromise

i can totally implement a self-surgery blacklist of certain things if you guys want, so we can still dig bullets out of ourselves or some shit on the field but can't become robocop by ourselves or some meme shit

[Saegrimr]

Why nitpick with a blacklist when you can just close the PR?

[iamgoofball]

Why nitpick with a blacklist when you can just close the PR?

please explain your reasoning for this

[lumipharon]

because the only self surgery that seems plausible is the remove embedded shit - which isn't really even needed since you can self do that without surgery.

[iamgoofball]

because the only self surgery that seems plausible is the remove embedded shit - which isn't really even needed since you can self do that without surgery.

The realism of the matter isn't really a valid concern here. If assistant mcshitter wants to saw his own brain out and leave the round, why should we stop him over realism?

Shit like xeno removal, augs, plastic surgery maybe, etc. is the sort of thing that would get blacklisted, but who cares if an assistant does lipo surgery on himself or some shit like that?

[Saegrimr]

please explain your reasoning for this

* Iamgoofball (cgiirc@Rizon-842A3C80.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) has joined #supportbus
<Iamgoofball> hey Saegrimr you're a fucking admin man, you should know better than to shitpost like that

Actually no, that was a legitimate question. Me shitposting would be pointing out le compromise meme that keeps happening. Like this.

Lets start with:
-Adds stun gloves.
"No, this is dumb. PR closed."

Compared to the increasingly successful:
-Removes the armory from the map, adds stun gloves, and removes the clown.
"No no, are you retarded? This is the worst change ever."
"Okay fine, we'll keep the armory and the clown."
"Well okay that sounds like a fair compromise."

[MisterPerson]

The question was more like "Why do you dislike this change?" but ok w/e

[CPTANT]

Make self surgery risky, with an increased chance of failure each step and potential damage.

[oranges]

I think having a flag on surgery datums that allows certain limited self surgeries to be done is not a bad idea.

bonus points if you make it host configurable.

That pull would be accepted as long as the system was cleanly implemented. (Make it free of other changes)

[Incomptinence]

Balance the augments not the surgery. A thing shouldn't be balanced around barely ever being used which was the case with many implants requiring a buddy to put them in.

[DrPillzRedux]

Self surgery is dumb. Only makes sense for removing bullets, which I think only goon has. Just give traitors a machine that implants them or just make self surgery require being at a mirror to do.

[CPTANT]

Self surgery is dumb. Only makes sense for removing bullets, which I think only goon has. Just give traitors a machine that implants them or just make self surgery require being at a mirror to do.

How is self surgery dumb. There are multiple accounts of people that have removed their own appendix. And that is RL, this is a wacky space station.

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/a ... dix/72445/

[Steelpoint]

Self-surgery is surprisingly more realistic than many other facets of Space Station 13.

From Plasma, Bluespace, Lasers (The one's we present), Space Exposure, Damage Effects (What is a bullet to the head?), Wizards, GBS, Space Ship Drives, Research & Development, Most Of Our Medical System, etc, etc.

The main and only point of contention against self-surgery is not from a realism point of view, but from a balance point of view.

We hold no restrictions on in game knowledge and equipment usage, a lowly Clown or Assistant is just as proficent in firearm usage as the Head of Security, or in construction as a professional Engineer. So there's no reason to assume that we have to drawn the line at people being able to operate on themselves considering what we allow to past muster.

Again, its from a balance point of view, not realism.

Edit: Also the idea of a Assistant removing their brain to plop it on the Roboticists desk is really amusing.

[Super Aggro Crag]

why don't you just remove fucking medical doctors if you're so intent on making everyone else self sufficient ubermensch out of the fear of getting killed? Beaten to an inch of your life? Waddle your ass into cloning! Want to get superpowers? Slash your own fucking face with a scalpel! TRUST ANOTHER PLAYER? GOSH NO, THAT'S PATENTLY RIDICULOUS!

[Steelpoint]

Because this is a case of the Streisand Effect.

For years when you could do self surgery, I practically never saw anyone attempt it. Hell I never even knew it exsisted.

Until someone pointed out that there was this bug where you could do surgery on yourself, and that someone put up a PR to remove it (also considering that a merged PR took a while to get on live server back then).

So then a lot more people took advantage of it simply because they not only knew they could do it, but that it was being removed.

I honestly do not think self surgery is a big deal at all, and argumentation that it will kill RP or whatever is overblown to fuck.

Do whatever, its a minor thing that won't have much impact at all if its reintroduced or not.

[PKPenguin321]

I honestly do not think self surgery is a big deal at all, and argumentation that it will kill RP or whatever is overblown to fuck.

Do whatever, its a minor thing that won't have much impact at all if its reintroduced or not.

this this this x1000
you fucks will overreact over the dumbest shit, this change wont even affect the game that much and is more positive than negative if anything

why don't you just remove fucking medical doctors if you're so intent on making everyone else self sufficient ubermensch out of the fear of getting killed? Beaten to an inch of your life? Waddle your ass into cloning! Want to get superpowers? Slash your own fucking face with a scalpel! TRUST ANOTHER PLAYER? GOSH NO, THAT'S PATENTLY RIDICULOUS!

i can't tell what you're trying to say, none of this has anything to do with self surgery

[Luke Cox]

As a compromise, I wouldn't mind an auto-doc type thing being added. It would be a surgery table that automatically performs surgeries relatively quickly, and would be buildable at medium-high research levels. Person-to-person interaction would be there, but people would be more willing since it's more convenient.

[ShadowDimentio]

Self-surgery should be brought in, but with a very high chance of failure. Surgery delay oughta be removed IF it's being done by someone else on a surgery table.

[cedarbridge]

Self-surgery should be brought in, but with a very high chance of failure. Surgery delay oughta be removed IF it's being done by someone else on a surgery table.

Except the main reason for keeping the delay in is directly related to operating on others. If somebody straps your ass to a table and starts messing with your gender, you have a chance to scream for help. If you remove the delay, they'll hear you scream as somebody of the opposite gender (with the same awkward voice)

[Incomptinence]

If the augments are so powerful I would be more worried about solo antags teams auging up to make superhuman murder gangs. Nerf the augs.

[Amelius]

If the augments are so powerful I would be more worried about solo antags teams auging up to make superhuman murder gangs. Nerf the augs.

Augs aren't powerful and were already nerfed. You used to be able to use a welder once or twice and a few things of wire to heal all damage. It takes an entire stack of wire to heal some of your burn damage, and most of a welder to repair some brute. The tradeoff? You are also VERY vulnerable to EMPs / flashes. The only really useful aspect really is with full augs being able to spacetravel, but even that slows you to a crawl so it's only really helpful in an emergency.

They're pretty UP given how long they take to implement. Zero tech requirements, but the time it takes to do surgery on 6 limbs isn't worth the reward, esp. since the person doing it gets jack shit. The facial implants are really useful, but again, require minerals, high tech, and someone to implant them into you that you can trust, so they're very rarely used aside from in ops, and even then they just do things you can accomplish elsewhere by yourself, while adding severe EMP vulnerability. Given that they're scarcely used, and have so many barriers to entry, I really don't see the problem with lifting the obnoxious 'need another person that won't kill you when there's a 1/5th chance of them killing you, on top of various other factors that each have a 60%~ chance of occuring [minerals coming in and R&D occuring at a brisk enough speed that you're better off with it rather than just hitting up genetics]'. Even with all these barriers, you consume much of the round just obtaining them then assume inordinate risk equipping them, for marginal benefit not anywhere on the same level as the risk and time assumed to obtain them, and you're better off with alternatives that perform similar functions rather than wasting time with them.

There's a really good reason you never (with rare exception) see antags with any form of R&D implants.

[PKPenguin321]

yeah, augs got nerfed to shit and are basically worse than not having augs since they make you so fucking hard to heal
idk why people keep bringing them up like "if we add self surgery we will have a station of robocops!!"
even if they were still powerful, that's not even true, since the only place you can really get the parts to augment yourself is robotics

[lumipharon]

>being able to make yourself immune to melee and/or super robust against other damage types
>not strong

Having to use lots of welding fuel to heal yourself is not a drawback - welding fuel is a functionally infinite resource found all over the station. Wire is only marginally rarer.
And how often do you get emp'd? Seriously.

[Takeguru]

a lowly Clown [...] is just as proficent in firearm usage as the Head of Security

That's factually incorrect if clumsiness is still a thing, but I'm just being nitpicky.

Bring back self-surgery, no restrictions.

[PKPenguin321]

>being able to make yourself immune to melee and/or super robust against other damage types
>not strong

Having to use lots of welding fuel to heal yourself is not a drawback - welding fuel is a functionally infinite resource found all over the station. Wire is only marginally rarer.
And how often do you get emp'd? Seriously.

you only barely become spaceworthy and you take maybe 3 brute less or something from most attacks, meanwhile you need to use basically an entire welder's worth of fuel (each use taking about half an hour of cooldown to apply) to heal one limb, AND normal methods of healing like chemicals wont work on you anymore
but yeah maybe this belongs in a feedback thread about augments, not this thread

[Jacough]

If you wanted to get all autistic and realistic with embedded objects you could make it so that trying to pull larger stuff like spears and metal rods out yourself would make the bleeding even worse and probably injure you even more. The self surgery aspect of it would be more of first aid. Use bandages or if you need some ghetto shit, wrapping paper to secure the impaled object and keep it from wiggling around. Actually removing it though would require some actual surgery from another person.

[invisty]

Self-surgery is surprisingly more realistic than many other facets of Space Station 13.

From Plasma, Bluespace, Lasers (The one's we present), Space Exposure, Damage Effects (What is a bullet to the head?), Wizards, GBS, Space Ship Drives, Research & Development, Most Of Our Medical System, etc, etc.

The main and only point of contention against self-surgery is not from a realism point of view, but from a balance point of view.

Except that science fiction isn't about FANTASY THINGS, its about building upon existing reality with new rules and ideas. The idea of self-surgery is dumb because the only time anyone ever achieves it in reality is either:

a) They're completely out of their mind to the point of self-harm.
b) They need fix themselves to stop bleeding out/amputate their way out of a life-threatening situation.

We can afford a lot of leniency though, because SS13 hardly adheres to the conventions of science fiction outside of its base-level simulations.

Not that I'd approve this PR. It's a huge stinking pile of "I'm too much of a shitty player to interact with other players".

[PKPenguin321]

It's a huge stinking pile of "I'm too much of a shitty player to interact with other players".

>implying player interaction consists of sitting perfectly still and alt+tabbing while another player clicks on you with a memorized series of tools
>caring about realism in a video game with clowns and cloning machines

[invisty]

I dunno bro I tend to RP my way through surgery as a doctor/roboticist or patient. Better to RP than to be a part of the problem.

[PKPenguin321]

I dunno bro I tend to RP my way through surgery as a doctor/roboticist or patient. Better to RP than to be a part of the problem.

you've inspired me

[Zilenan91]

Your MS Paint pictures are fucking gold PK holy shit

[Cheimon]

The argument is shite, but the picture is quite funny.

[invisty]

I dunno bro I tend to RP my way through surgery as a doctor/roboticist or patient. Better to RP than to be a part of the problem.

you've inspired me

Sweet pics bro I always wanted some fanart.

Shame you got it totally wrong, because the second pic would just be a guy standing by himself in a corner replacing his limbs with augs.

[lumipharon]

Or the guy debraining himself then the roboticist never borging it (happened to me twice, back when you could self surgery funnily enough).

[PKPenguin321]

in order to get six robot limbs to get augs, you need to get an to an exofab in the first place, which probably requires player interaction/the risk of player interaction if you're trying to be stealthy. if self surgery gets readded, that wont mean people can just augment themselves all the time for free like you for some reason are convinced it will
not to mention augs aren't even good