Lethality feedback thread

[J_Madison]

Since the topic of "what's lethal" deserves it's own topic to vent our opinions on ingame matters, here's a place where you can discuss "what is lethal?".

There are two kinds of lethal.
Literal lethal - class shard meme cannons that instacrit, wand of death, the singulo, max cap bombs, >=100 damage, admins
Figurative lethal - Chloral hydrate, stun and cuffing, being a lizard when the AI is on Asimov /pol/, being valid

Things that are any kind of lethal must be moderated because it's fun. And fun is contraband, fun is bannable, fun gets hit by the Nerfcode.
I'll begin by saying Pneumatic cannons are the biggest bullshit there is. An assistant can make it and instacrit anyone in one hit. That shit simply shouldn't exist.
As for figurative lethal, we all know and have discussed about how ridiculous the stun duration is and how it should be nerfed. Being stunned is worse than having 99 damage.

[Steelpoint]

I don't understand the topic but I support wanting to make combat and the game overall more lethal but in a fair way.

In my opinion one shot kills from common items is shit.

I think the more obnoxious, loud and rare a weapon is the more harder hitting it should be.

If your concerned about everyone dying off to fast just buff antag/whoever armour to be worth a damn.

---

If you want to look at stuns look to what other servers do, some do something akin to that it takes two hits from a Taser to stun a target and the only 100% stunning weapon are close range Stun Batons or similar. Encourage using a Laser over a Taser or something.

I hate to harp it but Goon does it right in that regard, ranged lethal weapons deal insane levels of damage (Stock laser is 75 damage) and other actual lethal weapons deal similar damage. But I digress.

[J_Madison]

I don't understand the topic but I support wanting to make combat and the game overall more lethal but in a fair way.

In my opinion one shot kills from common items is shit.

I think the more obnoxious, loud and rare a weapon is the more harder hitting it should be.

If your concerned about everyone dying off to fast just buff antag/whoever armour to be worth a damn.

---

If you want to look at stuns look to what other servers do, some do something akin to that it takes two hits from a Taser to stun a target and the only 100% stunning weapon are close range Stun Batons or similar. Encourage using a Laser over a Taser or something.

I hate to harp it but Goon does it right in that regard, ranged lethal weapons deal insane levels of damage (Stock laser is 75 damage) and other actual lethal weapons deal similar damage. But I digress.

I'm fine with revolvers being two shot kill because of how loud it is. You can't silence that. It's expensive too.

As for stuns, I wouldn't like to go into it further since it's been discussed and I've talked about my side, my numbers and my experience on it, but it looks like it's going to stay the same, for now.


Another personal gripe I have is sprinting and hulks being immune to most figurative lethal weapons, like disablers.


Lethal things like Coiine are fair. It's counterable if you're prepared, but it's understandable and has a degree of respect when you know you were outmatched in a fight rather than whoever killed you simply used a shitty cheap method that is unfair.

[Amelius]

I'll begin by saying Pneumatic cannons are the biggest bullshit there is. An assistant can make it and instacrit anyone in one hit. That shit simply shouldn't exist.

1. It doesn't instacrit usually, but you'll be a few seconds away from crit due to bloodloss.

2. It takes several parts to assemble, is single-shot, and has a long reload time. Missing results in a useless piece of equipment until you can play 52 pickup with shards. Furthermore, additional tanks to allow for multiple shots take a single normal-sized slot in your inventory, but once those are expended you have to have an airtank.

3. They're obvious, both in assembly and when being deployed, meaning hostile intent is obvious when taken out, similar to how hostile intent is obvious when someone is running around with a SABR out.

4. You can dodge the shot.

5. It KNOCKS DOWN THE USER for several seconds.

It's basically a ghetto single-use lethal, which is only slightly stronger than a normal taser stun -> cuff, and even then the single-shot nature renders it less useful than it. Furthermore, since many shards will embed, you have to tear a bunch out of the target to reload.

[J_Madison]

I'll begin by saying Pneumatic cannons are the biggest bullshit there is. An assistant can make it and instacrit anyone in one hit. That shit simply shouldn't exist.

1. It doesn't instacrit usually, but you'll be a few seconds away from crit due to bloodloss.

2. It takes several parts to assemble, is single-shot, and has a long reload time. Missing results in a useless piece of equipment until you can play 52 pickup with shards. Furthermore, additional tanks to allow for multiple shots take a single normal-sized slot in your inventory, but once those are expended you have to have an airtank.

3. They're obvious, both in assembly and when being deployed, meaning hostile intent is obvious when taken out, similar to how hostile intent is obvious when someone is running around with a SABR out.

4. You can dodge the shot.

5. It KNOCKS DOWN THE USER for several seconds.

It's basically a ghetto single-use lethal, which is only slightly stronger than a normal taser stun -> cuff, and even then the single-shot nature renders it less useful than it. Furthermore, since many shards will embed, you have to tear a bunch out of the target to reload.

1 - I've seen more than 3 people been instacritted. Effectively it's still literal lethal if it deals 99 damage then 15 immediately after.

2 - Doesn't matter, pull it out and crit someone, very little reaction time. Building time didn't prevent assistants from making stunprods.

3 - Doesn't matter, so is the stunprod, but they're different topics all together.

4 - Ditto.

5 - Only on setting 3.

[Tornadium]

Good lord nerf the fucking cannon.

[Zilenan91]

Cannon's fine. Literally just get a quarter, get clown access, and depending on what map you're on, use it on one of the costume vendors to get a roman shield. The cannon is now irrelevant and you're very robust in melee.

[lumipharon]

I wish people would stop defending everything with 'you asked for more lethality."

This is the shame shit certain smug fucks spout about spacewind, in it's currently broken state.

If I made a pr that added meteors that just randomly hit areas inside the station with the force of maxcaps, every few minutes, yes, that is literally a more lethal station.
It is also bullshit and completely unfun.

InstaKILL cannons are similarly bullshit - dont compare them to stuns which have direct counter (e-shield/swords to some types, adrenal implants/lingpower/hulk/nostun augment/ephedrine etc etc), while also giving you time to call for aid, and finally, still require a follow up to finish you (stun does nt equal death, if they're unable to cuff you due to other people/factors, you get back up no worse for wear).

acid cannon is just click and dead. (someone will compare them to bombs and shit, which is a whole other story, but mainly collatoral damage etc).

traitor chems in a dart gun is as close to instadeath as we should get, IMO.

[oranges]

there's already a pnuematic cannon thread J_madison

edit:apparently they made you move it, so I take back my sarcasm

[ShadowDimentio]

Jesus you people will cry about anything that threatens your hugbox. Cannons are fucking awful, but just because if the stars align and the other player has brain damage and doesn't dodge they could get one-hit, people are throwing a shitfit about how OP it is.

If you're stupid enough to get fucked by a cannon, that's your own fault.

[TheNightingale]

Dodging isn't all-powerful; it's impossible in a narrow corridor like maintenance, hard to do if you don't expect to be attacked, and even then, hardly foolproof. Saying being shot with a cannon is stupid is like saying being shot with any weapon is stupid - because if you can dodge one shot, why can't you dodge them all?

[Zilenan91]

It's literally the revolver in maintenance thing except worse because glass shards aren't as hard to find in maint. Git gud.

[Luke Cox]

Acid Cannon is a consequence of the way chemicals react when being thrown at people being retarded. Change how that works and 90% of the cannon related problems are gone.

[J_Madison]

I never understood why anyone thought it was a good idea to implement reagents throwing.

Where's the tgstation equivalent of an icefrog.

[Incomptinence]

Rip and tear you know the elevator scene in the shining yeah that every corridor every round blood gates open flush flush. I'm not talking hugbox janitor abusing treasure trails of remie ded plz find either.

People should be gibbing all the time. Corpses should be seen as tasty meals instead of enshrined mason jars. Fires should burn louder hotter revolvers should deal a hundred damage, eswords 50 lasers 40 and so on and so forth. Ripleys should be mulching the fallen for sport hell we should be able to turn humans into fertilizer. The gates from beyond the grave are wide open with the dead walking about with minimal effort where is my hell on station?

[Grazyn]

Remove all one-hit stunners or make them extremely rare and let's move to damage-based combat.

[Tornadium]

Jesus you people will cry about anything that threatens your kickin' rad place to be. Cannons are fucking awful, but just because if the stars align and the other player has brain damage and doesn't dodge they could get one-hit, people are throwing a shitfit about how OP it is.

If you're stupid enough to get fucked by a cannon, that's your own fault.

So if you stop paying attention for a single second you're dead to a glass shard cannon.

Git good?

It's fucking amazing as an assassination weapon and it costs Zero TCs. It's more effective than a Revolver for killing someone, you don't risk getting perma'd for having it.

WHAT IS BALANCE YOU FUCKING AUTISTIC RETARD.

[Steelpoint]

I thought the cannon in concept needed a tank transfer valve to make? That seemed like a ok limiting factor.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I thought the cannon in concept needed a tank transfer valve to make? That seemed like a ok limiting factor.

No, it needs a manifold valve, which are pipes found all over maint, often not even pressurised

[Steelpoint]

Either way its a more limited resource than common tools, not to mention Security could technically classify ownership of a cannon as a crime if the holder can't prove (or sec can prove) that the pipe was not wrenched off of somewhere in maint.

[newfren]

Either way its a more limited resource than common tools, not to mention Security could technically classify ownership of a cannon as a crime if the holder can't prove (or sec can prove) that the pipe was not wrenched off of somewhere in maint.

Also it's possession of a lethal weapon which is probably a crime.

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By the by Tornadium, claiming that's it's a better murder weapon than a revolver is the sort of hilarious hyperbole that makes people stop assuming you have anything relevant to add to the discussion.

[Tornadium]

Either way its a more limited resource than common tools, not to mention Security could technically classify ownership of a cannon as a crime if the holder can't prove (or sec can prove) that the pipe was not wrenched off of somewhere in maint.

Also it's possession of a lethal weapon which is probably a crime.

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By the by Tornadium, claiming that's it's a better murder weapon than a revolver is the sort of hilarious hyperbole that makes people stop assuming you have anything relevant to add to the discussion.

It kills in one hit.

Revolver kills in two hits.

The cannon is not loud, the revolver is very fucking loud.

The cannon will not get you immediately perma'd and valid, the revolver does.

The cannon does not cost TC, Ammo is plentiful and not restricted, can make it very easily.

I'm sorry why is the revolver better for assassinating people again?

[MMMiracles]

Either way its a more limited resource than common tools, not to mention Security could technically classify ownership of a cannon as a crime if the holder can't prove (or sec can prove) that the pipe was not wrenched off of somewhere in maint.

Also it's possession of a lethal weapon which is probably a crime.

---

By the by Tornadium, claiming that's it's a better murder weapon than a revolver is the sort of hilarious hyperbole that makes people stop assuming you have anything relevant to add to the discussion.

It kills in one hit.

Revolver kills in two hits.

The cannon is not loud, the revolver is very fucking loud.

The cannon will not get you immediately perma'd and valid, the revolver does.

The cannon does not cost TC, Ammo is plentiful and not restricted, can make it very easily.

I'm sorry why is the revolver better for assassinating people again?

Because ammo is very plentiful if you have an autolathe, almost nobody has a reaction time that allows them to actually avoid the double-tap, and it fires more than once before having to be reloaded.

Also, one leaves behind a corpse, the other leaves behind a corpse covered in glass and the surrounding area covered in whatever else you shot.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Either way its a more limited resource than common tools, not to mention Security could technically classify ownership of a cannon as a crime if the holder can't prove (or sec can prove) that the pipe was not wrenched off of somewhere in maint.

Also it's possession of a lethal weapon which is probably a crime.

---

By the by Tornadium, claiming that's it's a better murder weapon than a revolver is the sort of hilarious hyperbole that makes people stop assuming you have anything relevant to add to the discussion.

It kills in one hit.

Revolver kills in two hits.

The cannon is not loud, the revolver is very fucking loud.

The cannon will not get you immediately perma'd and valid, the revolver does.

The cannon does not cost TC, Ammo is plentiful and not restricted, can make it very easily.

I'm sorry why is the revolver better for assassinating people again?

Because ammo is very plentiful if you have an autolathe, almost nobody has a reaction time that allows them to actually avoid the double-tap, and it fires more than once before having to be reloaded.

Also, one leaves behind a corpse, the other leaves behind a corpse covered in glass and the surrounding area covered in whatever else you shot.

In the current /tg/station, the ability to kill someone without becoming autovalid is worth more than a hundred shots.

[Oldman Robustin]

Just cut down the number of items you can shove into the cannon, problem solved.

Currently I believe its 8 shards, make the size limit equivalent to 5 instead.

Traitors and creative crew can still load it with shurikens, lethal chems, etc. for quick lethals but Johnny Greytide won't be able to one-shot the HOS who follows him into a 1x1 maint corridor.

Everything else is largely in check and we don't need to ask some overly broad question about what does lethality mean.

[Tornadium]

Either way its a more limited resource than common tools, not to mention Security could technically classify ownership of a cannon as a crime if the holder can't prove (or sec can prove) that the pipe was not wrenched off of somewhere in maint.

Also it's possession of a lethal weapon which is probably a crime.

---

By the by Tornadium, claiming that's it's a better murder weapon than a revolver is the sort of hilarious hyperbole that makes people stop assuming you have anything relevant to add to the discussion.

It kills in one hit.

Revolver kills in two hits.

The cannon is not loud, the revolver is very fucking loud.

The cannon will not get you immediately perma'd and valid, the revolver does.

The cannon does not cost TC, Ammo is plentiful and not restricted, can make it very easily.

I'm sorry why is the revolver better for assassinating people again?

Because ammo is very plentiful if you have an autolathe, almost nobody has a reaction time that allows them to actually avoid the double-tap, and it fires more than once before having to be reloaded.

Also, one leaves behind a corpse, the other leaves behind a corpse covered in glass and the surrounding area covered in whatever else you shot.

If you have a hacked autolathe, if people are not watching the auto lathe.

So just drag the fucking body away and hide it?

[MMMiracles]

If I have a minute total to stash a body I'd rather just have to worry about the body itself instead of the ass load of shards with my prints everywhere. Good luck if you're caught afterwards too, at least I could glack the second guy instead of having my pants around my ankles trying to reload a cannon.

Also it's not hard to build your own autolathe. Steal the circuit or get rnd to print you one.

[callanrockslol]

If we return fast then it means we can make things more lethal and return paranoia when someone stands next to you for more than half a second.