Newcult sac rune

[PKPenguin321]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Not if you were security. That's why it's gone.

but in newcult you get sacced 100% of the time and become a construct anyways
what part of this don't you get

[Zilenan91]

It's all about design. Before, being sacced was basically a punishment, you had the gall to be implanted? No hands for you. Now everyone becomes helpers to the cultists rather than just sec in particular.

[kevinz000]

Honestly, I liked oldcult much better. It was based on NUMBERS and STEALTH, instead of who died out first, the cultists or the security force.
Just because sec had to be sacced doesn't mean its BAD
Implant removal is a thing too.

And if you're still going to push that point, literally everyone can be converted in rev except for the POOR HEADS OF STAFF WHO HAS TO DIE (Clone officer, flash, gg)
And in gang I firsthand know that there are a LOT of gangbosses who just have anyone who can't be penned killed instead of bothering to implant. Even if they're a head of staff who has all accses or a security officer who's heavily armed, they would much rather kill everyone implanted then use an implant breaker. And realistically , you're not getting cloned in a gang round. GG security .

[Zilenan91]

Oh yeah there's a reason I had a problem with cult in particular and almost none of the other modes. Every time I died in cult as a security officer it mostly just felt unfair, like I'd wasted my time. However, in rev, gang, and whatever else I actually feel like I had a choice, like I could've done something different and had a different outcome. Maybe I should've executed that assistant rather than wasting an implant on him which could've caused a snowball or maybe -

And that's what's wrong with cult. There is no choice, you can't do anything right or wrong. The round just ends with everyone's time wasted and nothing gained.

[PKPenguin321]

It's all about design. Before, being sacced was basically a punishment, you had the gall to be implanted? No hands for you. Now everyone becomes helpers to the cultists rather than just sec in particular.

so basically what you're saying is, "if i can't be a human convert, nobody can!! it's not fair that sec has to be constructs!"
hardly about design. to be honest, as stale as this meme is, it sounds like you've got a wee bit of

[Luke Cox]

I don't think you understand the issue here. You can have shitty rounds, everyone does. You can suck it up, everyone does. The issue with oldcult was when every round for sec and anyone of importance was a shitty round was where it failed and why it was removed.

Oldcult was actually my favorite antag to fight as HoS

It's all about design. Before, being sacced was basically a punishment, you had the gall to be implanted? No hands for you. Now everyone becomes helpers to the cultists rather than just sec in particular.

Are you fucking serious? Becoming a construct and getting to slaughter anybody you please is fucking awesome. Plus, by your logic you just made the problem worse by requiring everybody to be sacced. Seriously, your reasoning makes no fucking sense.

Why can't you just accept that the vast majority of people hate newcult?

[InsaneHyena]

After heavily analyzing this thread and everyone's points, I've come to a conclusion that sec players are a bunch of annoying whiners that want antags nerfed into the ground, so they can get their valids more easily, and can't handle losing. Git gud, m8s.

[ShadowDimentio]

LING

>Remove parasting
>"Wow this mode sucks cock now"
>Desperately fumble around trying to find a solution
>Don't add back parasting
>Mode gets shittier and shittier thanks to your fumbling
>People get sick of it and remove the mode <<WHERE WE ARE

CULT

>Remove stunpaper
>"Wow this mode sucks cock now"
>Desperately fumble around trying to find a solution
>Don't add back stunpaper
>Mode gets shittier and shittier thanks to your fumbling <<WHERE WE ARE
>People get sick of it and remove the mode

I SENSE A PATTERN.........

[PKPenguin321]

After heavily analyzing this thread and everyone's points, I've come to a conclusion that sec players are a bunch of annoying whiners that want antags nerfed into the ground, so they can get their valids more easily, and can't handle losing. Git gud, m8s.

this has pretty much always been true but if you say it you get ridiculed by the cult-like sec players, good on you for calling them out though
>inb4 "YOU DONT PLAY SEC!"
i play sec on an alt character (as in, not Lauser) semi-frequently

but that's kind of aside from the point.
O L D C U L T
W H E N

[InsaneHyena]

this has pretty much always been true but if you say it you get ridiculed by the cult-like sec players, good on you for calling them out though

As if I cared for their worthless opinion.

Despite having "robust" literally in my character's name, I can't handle a glorified flashbang that's obvious _and_ immovable. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

When I got sacced as a security officer, I was forced to play something with no hands! NO HANDS, PEOPLE! Can't you see how wrong it is? Fuck this game mode! Also, how dare anyone but glorious security have a reliable stun! NO HANDS!!!!!!1111

How the fuck do you even argue with that, it's a case of literal retardation.

[Luke Cox]

After heavily analyzing this thread and everyone's points, I've come to a conclusion that sec players are a bunch of annoying whiners that want antags nerfed into the ground, so they can get their valids more easily, and can't handle losing. Git gud, m8s.

Speak for yourself. I'm a frequent HoS player and I want to buff the shit out of antags. Makes torturing them to death more satisfying.

[Malkevin]

It's ironic people refer to constructs as a punishment when the sharding system was added as a second chance safety net because I knew you cry babies wouldn't be able to handle dying

[Incomptinence]

I love constructs when a construct was needed and shit was tight I offered up my own life as a cultist to be sharded. Either be a superhulk with wall making power or basically a teleporting living esword. Even artificer isn't terrible and most bad experiences with it come from some goober ordering the magical engineering borg with lesser MM to sit in a tiny room like a battery hen and shit out shards.

[Actionb]

Thank god all these crybabies haven't realized that stun runes stun non-cultists walking over them - and that they can be hidden. And that they never 'run out of charges'/disappear when not invoked directly (though this might just be an oversight?).

As for the I ded sac rune stuff:
You still need the help of at least one construct or one other cultist to sac a live target.

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

	if(((ishuman(offering) || isrobot(offering)) && offering.stat != DEAD)) //Requires two people to sacrifice living targets
		var/cultists_nearby = 1
		for(var/mob/living/M in range(1,src))
			if(iscultist(M) && M != user)
				cultists_nearby++
				M.say(invocation)
		if(cultists_nearby < 2)
			user << "<span class='cultitalic'>[offering] is too greatly linked to the world! You need more acolytes!</span>"
			fail_invoke()
			log_game("Sacrifice rune failed - not enough acolytes and target is living")
			rune_in_use = 0
			return

In oldcult you had plenty of cultismers to help in a live sacrifice - currently there's only five, plus whatever constructs. So sac rune buff from three down to two cultists required is understandable.
Plus, getting stunned means death in this game. Nothing stops the cultist from cuffing+stripping you in their base. Or they could just keep pulling you over stun runes (see above). In either case, you will most likely end up dead unless the cultist has a literal spaghetti factory in their pockets.

Although I really liked oldcult, I don't mind a step away from yet another conversion mode to something simpler and more straightfoward:
'Sac some fools. Defend Nar Nar.'

[Cheimon]

What would improve newcult is every cultist actually having access to the sacrifice rune. It's entirely possible to be the last cultist and to be unable to do anything because you can't actually gibconvert anyone.

[ShadowDimentio]

I said this a long time ago, newcult would be tolerable if every cultist had access to every rune from the word go, period.

Then it would actually be a matter of the cult players making the most of what they had rather than having to potentially carry your team by yourself because you got all the good runes or be locked into uselessness because you got bad ones

[Luke Cox]

That's just one issue among a mountain of them. Conversion in oldcult was perfectly fine. You had to abduct somebody and bring them to a remote place alive. Sacrificing was typically only done if constructs were desired, or the target was an objective. Newcult is just a mass sac spree. I will never understand what the fuck Zil was thinking when he wanted to make them "magical ops".

[Oldman Robustin]

Revert this absolute shit.

I read the stories here thinking "ok there's no way that the coders fucked this shit up THAT bad again... after all these years of lessons in design I'm sure someone would've stepped in if they tried to implement something so utterly shit, surely someone isn't telling the whole story"


Nope that's the whole story. Cult gathers up within 5 minutes at escape and cakes the floor with stun runes and a sac rune. Anyone who steps on screen is instantly stunned, dragged over the sac rune, and is an artificer before they can say "Are you fucking kidding me?"


This is worse version of any mode I can ever recall, I'd rather play meteor, no admins extended, or fucking no-armblade+no-parasting ling from 2014 sooner than I'd subject myself to another round of this metastatic cancer of a gametype. The only time you don't have to deal with unstoppable cult bullshit is when the cult is too incompetent to even figure out who has access to the stun rune and their sac rune guy summons up armor and rushes the brig 60 seconds in. It's a complete steamroll for one side or the other and its devoid of any kind of merit that justified trying to revamp it when we have oldcult as a perfectly acceptable format.

I've said it a dozen times before, if there's something you didn't like about oldcult we are literally one variable away from tweaking it to a better place. Stun talismans a bitch? Ok we cut the stun time by 33% and made it so that you can't get 4 talismans from 5 runes (aka the imbuing process consumes both runes).

Instead we have this unredeemable shit that shouldn't even be in rotation.

[Lumbermancer]

And yet again, Nar Nar gets summoned before anyone even realizes it's cult. It's too effortless to sacrifice, before you at least needed some team coordination. Now it's like BOOM get smacked with paper dragged two squares onto rune and BOOM you're fucking dead.

[InsaneHyena]

Now it's like BOOM get smacked with paper

Are you fucking high

[Zilenan91]

Cult has never been good. Our oldcult wasn't necessarily good either because it wasn't scaled to power with security, security never had any real way to deal with it without calling the shuttle so it made people not even want to play security at all in case it was cult.

Been playing on Archangel recently and a good way they fixed that was by giving their security, the Imperial Guard, standard issue lasguns with 150 lasers. Now this may sound unbalanced, and it isn't, but for reasons that would be off-topic to state so I'm just gonna keep going with cult. Since they have these guns and also very robust armor, the cults can dunk on them if they're good but the same can be said for the IG because they have mostly unnerfed taser and stunbaton stuns. This means that it feels unfair for neither side, especially for the IG because if you all get dunked on everyone else doesn't die for your failure because armor is very good and you have Space Marines can step in and save your ass with their unstunnable rape-machine bodies.

[Malkevin]

Cult has never been good. Our oldcult wasn't necessarily good either because it wasn't scaled to power with security, security never had any real way to deal with it without calling the shuttle so it made people not even want to play security at all in case it was cult.

Holy water and loyalty implants

[Zilenan91]

You could deconvert them, but then they'd just get stunpapered and drug off again, or actively seek out the cult to get converted. It was either kill them or nothing.

Also it took like 5 minutes and more than 1/3 of the holy water bottle so if you didn't have a chaplain you were fucked beyond belief.

[Malkevin]

You could deconvert them, but then they'd just get stunpapered and drug off again, or actively seek out the cult to get converted. It was either kill them or nothing.

Loyalty Implants

Also it took like 5 minutes and more than 1/3 of the holy water bottle so if you didn't have a chaplain you were fucked beyond belief.

Intentional.
well you're meant to exterminatus the station.

[Zilenan91]

I covered loyalty implants, they'd get drug off.

Also a mode that forces sec to exterminate the station that doesn't convert as fast as rev is terrible design.

[Luke Cox]

Zil, I'm sorry but your logic makes no fucking sense. Cult was perfectly capable of being contained if security was proactive as soon as it was discovered. If cult played it smart and grew, they were extremely difficult to stop. This is the ideal scenario for group antags. There were a few things I would change with oldcult, but overall it was a much more flavorful and enjoyable mode than newcult. I understand why you're so defensive regarding it, you put a lot of work into it. However, the vast majority of the playerbase feels that oldcult is a better experience. As both a regular HoS and an eager cultist, oldcult was my favorite gamemode. Maybe newcult can be reworked into a new antag type, but oldcult needs to come back. For the good of the mode, please let it go Zil.

[Zilenan91]

You can't contain it, not in high pop. They'd just go to science or any corner of any department and convert everyone forever. If they played it smart they would never die out and would be able to summon their friends corpses back to them forever unless sec systematically exterminates and incinerates everyone.

[Luke Cox]

You can't contain it, not in high pop. They'd just go to science or any corner of any department and convert everyone forever. If they played it smart they would never die out and would be able to summon their friends corpses back to them forever unless sec systematically exterminates and incinerates everyone.

You clearly haven't played either cult or sec more than a few times. Conversion requires you to capture somebody alive and get them to a secluded spot without getting caught. Spoiler alert, you WILL get caught sooner or later. Once you do, sec will storm your little "corner of any department" with a dozen flashbangs.

[lumipharon]

edit: oldcult talk.

With old cult, if the cult was actually robust (read: almost never) then it is functionally impossible to take down the cult base.
Lining it with wallrunes after the chaplain has been dealt with means sec cannot get in, or shoot in (flashbangs still work though), so the cult can just sit there picking their noses then use a tele rune to get out if they want to.

Edit: Not to say that means they'll win, just that they can have an impregnable autism fort if needed.

[Steelpoint]

That was a cult round? Shit happens to fast for anyone to react before 100 constructs and nar nar are on your ass.

I much prefered the older cult where I, as Sec, at least had a snowball's chance in hell to fight it out and the Cultists at least had to go loud and convert people to win.

[PKPenguin321]

You can't contain it, not in high pop. They'd just go to science or any corner of any department and convert everyone forever. If they played it smart they would never die out and would be able to summon their friends corpses back to them forever unless sec systematically exterminates and incinerates everyone.

and this is a bad thing because...?

[Actionb]

Lining it with wallrunes after the chaplain has been dealt with means sec cannot get in

Mops, man. They're magic. They clean right through those runes. But do try to use space cleaner instead of plain water when breaching a cult base, please.

[Steelpoint]

Oh yeah those walls, ggnore when no one on earth can get into the cult base in a timely manner outside of abusing a bug.

[kevinz000]

Oldcult was never a challenge
Flashbang.
Laser the human cultists
Literally dodge the fucking construct army as once the human is dead constructs can't cast or write tomes and it's gg

[PKPenguin321]

Oldcult was never a challenge
Flashbang.
Laser the human cultists
Literally dodge the fucking construct army as once the human is dead constructs can't cast or write tomes and it's gg

>implying newcult is any harder