Grudgecoding General

[ShadowDimentio]

Welp since coderbus is hell bent on turning the game into a hugbox and making a new thread for every new thing they try to ruin just leads to three threads for the same thing I propose we just do it here so that we can all collectively tell them to fuck off.

Opening topic, flashbangs being nerfed: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/16451

[DemonFiren]

ITT: Feedback that the prominent names of coderbus will make extra-sure to ignore at every opportunity.

[onleavedontatme]

>blaming "coderbus" for a random person opening an (unmerged) PR

Okay

[CPTANT]

>blaming "coderbus" for a random person opening an (unmerged) PR

Okay

It's not only that PR, shit is getting virtually only nerfed for months now. Everything that is even slightly seen as "easy" or "OP" is getting nerfed. But the game is suffering as a result, because the amount of viable ways to do something only gets reduced more and more.

[Scott]

>blaming "coderbus" for a random person opening an (unmerged) PR

Okay

It's not only that PR, shit is getting virtually only nerfed for months now. Everything that is even slightly seen as "easy" or "OP" is getting nerfed. But the game is suffering as a result, because the amount of viable ways to do something only gets reduced more and more.

But that's all supported by players isn't it? Such as removing secborg.

[oranges]

how salty can you be

[TechnoAlchemist]

There are a lot of good coders in "coderbus" if you want to complain complain about individuals not the whole.

[ShadowDimentio]

No names have been mentioned, the guilty parties know who they are.

[iamgoofball]

shadow, why don't you join
#coderbus
on irc.rizon.net

and ask to learn how to code

we'll teach you how

I'll teach you how to revert goofchem if you wanted

you just gotta be willing to LEARN

[ShadowDimentio]

I don't do it for free

[iamgoofball]

I don't do it for free

So you don't want to take the initiative and learn to change the game directly instead of making forum threads over and over again, hoping it accomplishes something?

[ShadowDimentio]

Well in a perfect world coders would listen to what other people say, non-coder or otherwise

But we both know that won't happen.

[onleavedontatme]

>blaming "coderbus" for a random person opening an (unmerged) PR

Okay

It's not only that PR, shit is getting virtually only nerfed for months now. Everything that is even slightly seen as "easy" or "OP" is getting nerfed. But the game is suffering as a result, because the amount of viable ways to do something only gets reduced more and more.

Ironic sentiment coming from the guy who just (nerfed?) tasers, causing a big uproar.

>blaming "coderbus" for a random person opening an (unmerged) PR

Okay

It's not only that PR, shit is getting virtually only nerfed for months now. Everything that is even slightly seen as "easy" or "OP" is getting nerfed. But the game is suffering as a result, because the amount of viable ways to do something only gets reduced more and more.

But that's all supported by players isn't it? Such as removing secborg.

Yep. Scott gets it. The nerfs are very player driven. There is an absolutely relentless tide of "nerf this" for every change.

It took me a couple days to code stands. It took me something like 4-6 months of arguing to keep them in the game. I spend way more time arguing over changes than making them. It's honestly fucking exhausting. It's a massive time sink. There is no filter or distance between the coders and the players. Startoad still regularly tries to start long arguments with me about armour, for example. It's been 8 months of that.

The people who like something will say it's cool in OOC or deadchat and use it in the game. They might defend it a couple times on the forums or github. The people who hate something will open pull after pull, post on the forums, pick fights with the coder whenever they see them in deadchat, etc. When they die they'll first adminhelp trying to get the other guy banned, or failing that, go angrily demand the thing that killed them be removed.

>but kor I hate stands those are actually overpowered/dont fit etc

Great, the point is even more relevant to you. You dislike something. You want it removed or diminished. For every single feature in the game there is at least a few players who want it removed or diminished past usefulness.

Well in a perfect world coders would listen to what other people say, non-coder or otherwise

But we both know that won't happen.

As Scott just pointed out, the sec borg removal had a large amount of player support. Had a lot of people mad about it as well.

"I wish coders would listen to feedback" usually means, in reality, "I wish coders always agreed with me over everyone else."

I'm not saying coders are perfect at taking feedback, but taking feedback isn't as simple as "just do what the players (which players?) say"

[CPTANT]

Now the tasers were a nerf again? Half the people were shouting it was a buff


But anyway, I think a large part of the issue is the lack of a design framework or design philosophy. Nobody knows what tg code is supposed to stand for and there are never any medium to long term plans determined.

There is never a structural thinking about any issue or state of balance. Nobody ever thinks of wider balance plans or they don't have the power to implement them, everything is done by single changes that all need to have support individually.

Sometimes changes have to be part of a wider selection of changes to make sense.

If we take the stands as an example: I think they were more powerful than anything traitors had. You can shout OP, NERF at it, but if its part of realising traitors are currently too weak (which they are) then it makes sense, perhaps along with buffing other stuff.

If you consider the taser changes a nerf, then perhaps it would make sense if securities other weapons (such as the laser) got improved.

But nobody ever gives a shit about setting things into a wider perspective.

[ShadowDimentio]

Secborgs are a very timely example, but the (SLIGHT) majority of players actually didn't want secborgs removed.

The problem with that change wasn't "THE CODERS AREN'T AGREEING WITH ME" it's "THE CODER THAT PUSHED THIS CHANGE IS JUST DOING WHAT HE WANTS".

What should have happened with Secborgs is there have been an actual back and forth between the players and HG, ending with (ideally) a compromise with both sides leaving somewhat happy. What we got was no discussion besides the two sides futilely yelling at each other while HG continued doing what he wanted regardless, and half left very happy and the other half got jack shit.

Is this wrong to ask for?

[onleavedontatme]

HG isn't even part of what is officially #coderbus though.

Nor is he really super active as a "contributor" these days. He's had 2 pulls merged this year (buffing the supermatter singulo and renaming a door), and 10 closed/rejected.

[Atlanta-Ned]

Maybe let's stop being such complete pricks to each other? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[CPTANT]

Or we can actually determine what tg station code is supposed to be as a design philosophy so we can actually test changes to that philosophy.

[PKPenguin321]

>nerf isn't even that hard except maybe against nuke ops since their hardsuits have flash protection
>flashbangs have been needing a nerf for ages
>"N-NO YOU CANT NERF S-SEC WHAT THE HECK"

>kevinz000, robustin, steelpoint, dawgas all thumbs downed (kek)
>forum thread made out of pure salt arises
>people won't even try to listen to reasons for the nerf
>only person that actually has good arguments against the flashbang nerf is lumi, who has since been argued against and stopped posting
>everybody else is just blaming "coderbus" like it's a singular unit
>claiming that "LE CODERBUS BOOGEYMAN IS ON NERF MODE, GET HIM OFF OF IT!"


funniest shit i've seen in a while

[lumipharon]

I stopped posting because if your opinion hasn't changed by this point then there's no point in wasting any more time.

But yeah, the crux of my argument was:

Flash protection = easy to get and wide spread
Sound protection = not uncommon, but requires actual foresight to get if you're expecting flashbangs

Therefore if the sound part no longer stuns than flashbangs become exceedingly impractical againt anyone who is even minorly equiped, where as the real issue with flashbangs is how flashbang protection is either 100% protection or nothing, which is dumb.

[PKPenguin321]

I stopped posting because if your opinion hasn't changed by this point then there's no point in wasting any more time.

But yeah, the crux of my argument was:

Flash protection = easy to get and wide spread
Sound protection = not uncommon, but requires actual foresight to get if you're expecting flashbangs

Therefore if the sound part no longer stuns than flashbangs become exceedingly impractical againt anyone who is even minorly equiped, where as the real issue with flashbangs is how flashbang protection is either 100% protection or nothing, which is dumb.

people who get flash protection:
1. bartender, QM, sec, and heads of staff who start with sunglasses
2. cargo/engineers IF they decide to take a welding helmet/a hardsuit
3. roboticists, a scientist or two (or more if they decide to print welding masks/welding augments)
4. a handful of people with maint access should they choose to pick up sunglasses/a welding mask (very rarely more than about 2 people)

conclusion: flash protection is easy enough to get that if you went out of your way you could probably get your hands on it, but scarce enough that not everybody will get it (or even be able to get it)

people who get ear protection:
1. sec/some heads
2. the guy who manages to get into science to steal the earmuffs (only one of which exists, and it makes you completely deaf and disables your radio)

conclusion: basically only sec/some heads have ear protection, and the earmuffs are so specific (and awful to wear), that if you wear any kind of ear protection you're gonna get lynched

if you are fighting a traitor or whatever, there are good odds that they will not have eye protection. if they do, good on them, they are well equipped. if you are fighting a group of people (cult/gang/rev), there are good odds that at least a few have flash protection, but definitely not all of them (therefore you can throw a bang then tase the stragglers)

i think it is a fair nerf since it orients flashbangs to be more useful against crowds while still being useful against the single person who didn't get flash protection (more likely than you'd think).

[ShadowDimentio]

Have you considered that some things don't have to have counters

[Zilenan91]

I mean this is coming from the guy who likes secborgs

[PKPenguin321]

I mean this is coming from the guy who likes secborgs

HOLY FUCK SAVAGE

[NikNakFlak]

I stopped taking anything shadowdimentio posts seriously since his headmin thread. He literally splerges out in every thread he's in, and cries about everything. Like, the dude lives to be triggered. It's hilarious

[lumipharon]

people who get flash protection:
1. bartender, QM, sec, and heads of staff who start with sunglasses
2. cargo/engineers IF they decide to take a welding helmet/a hardsuit
3. roboticists, a scientist or two (or more if they decide to print welding masks/welding augments)
4. a handful of people with maint access should they choose to pick up sunglasses/a welding mask (very rarely more than about 2 people)

conclusion: flash protection is easy enough to get that if you went out of your way you could probably get your hands on it, but scarce enough that not everybody will get it (or even be able to get it)

people who get ear protection:
1. sec/some heads
2. the guy who manages to get into science to steal the earmuffs (only one of which exists, and it makes you completely deaf and disables your radio)

conclusion: basically only sec/some heads have ear protection, and the earmuffs are so specific (and awful to wear), that if you wear any kind of ear protection you're gonna get lynched

if you are fighting a traitor or whatever, there are good odds that they will not have eye protection. if they do, good on them, they are well equipped. if you are fighting a group of people (cult/gang/rev), there are good odds that at least a few have flash protection, but definitely not all of them (therefore you can throw a bang then tase the stragglers)

i think it is a fair nerf since it orients flashbangs to be more useful against crowds while still being useful against the single person who didn't get flash protection (more likely than you'd think).

People who get flash protection:
QM, HoP, Captain, Detective, Bartender, Lawyer, all of sec, CE, whoever has the 2 engineering hardsuits, the 1 atmos hardsuit, however many mining hardsuits there are, the sec hardsuits, the med hardsuits (depending on map/space exploration), the RD hardsuit, anyone with a welding mask (engineering and atmos has some, robo has some, roboticists have them, science has them, cargo can order them), anyone who gets a welding gas mask from science, and lastly, people who find sunglasses/welding mask in maint.

People who have ear protection:
Captain, detective, Sec, earmuffs in science or engineering (both readily accessible from maint), and also the brig. Probably also cargo but I haven't checked closely.

Also the arrivals checkpoint has both flash and sound protection. And who has even been lynched for wearing earmuffs, ever?

The point is having full flashbang immunity is mildly difficult to get, which is FINE because flashbangs have plenty of other counters (ie: run away, shoot the nerd trying to cook the nade, close the door, set the nerd on fire etc).
Hard countering it SHOULD be harder than getting a pair of sunglasses.

[ShadowDimentio]

I stopped taking anything shadowdimentio posts seriously since his headmin thread. He literally splerges out in every thread he's in, and cries about everything. Like, the dude lives to be triggered. It's hilarious

I'm offended by this

[Stickymayhem]

>blaming "coderbus" for a random person opening an (unmerged) PR

Okay

No one has any fucking clue about what may or may not be merged at this point to be fair. It seems arbitrary because it probably is. Even if it isn't some explanation would be nice. Or maybe even designy guideliney stuff I don't fucking know.

I'm just mad they took my grab away

[J_Madison]

You couldn't balance two 50 gram weights on scale, never mind understanding game content based on gameplay rather than players.

Either the player changes, or the content changes. It seems quite often that those that're highly opposed to reworks and changes are those that can't/don't want to learn new game mechanics, abuse those mechanics, and are the cause for the changes in the first place.

This isn't tgstation death match and nor is it tgstation Sybil. This is tgstation code for both servers and for everyone's play styles.

[ShadowDimentio]

Well if you're in the game of trying to appease everyone (good fucking luck with that by the way) then you should expect people to push back when the gameplay "balances" start fucking with stuff they like.

[J_Madison]

I'm not concerned with appeasing everyone. That's impossible, but it's possibly to eliminate problem content to combat problem players.

Every department I play and have played has been nerfed directly not because of me, but by others.

It's a case of get good or change jobs; nothing stops you from playing something else but yourself.

[ShadowDimentio]

Why nerf the entire game to spite the actions of a few players

This attitude of nerfing the latest meta isn't helping anything

[J_Madison]

Could ban them instead.

[ShadowDimentio]

Banning the mean mean player that dunked you is even worse

[Steelpoint]

All I did was thumbs down a PR I disliked. I ain't getting involved in shitfest #12542 because I've had enough with that.

[Scott]

I mean this is coming from the guy who likes secborgs

I am sure you see the irony in that statement.

[callanrockslol]

Honestly theres been loads of obvious grudgecoding but this doesn't look too bad.

Just make it so having no ear protection deafens and confuses you while no eye protection blinds and stuns. Boom, both do things.

[Luke Cox]

I wish the playerbase had some way to veto PRs. Like, if 2/3 or 3/4 of the playerbase is against a PR it automatically gets closed.

[Ricotez]

PR comments and feedback threads are so important to coders. The feedback I got on the ghost hair PR helped me improve it by a ton and add a special preference for people who wish to only see anonymous white ghosts, without even the premium sprites. I didn't even know there was demand for that.

[Tornadium]

I actually wouldn't mind seeing flashbangs nerfed slightly.

If the target isn't correctly geared then it's a GGNORE button if you like, have a hands and a quarter of a brain, as evidenced by a single officer spam flashbanging 16 people perfectly while killing the dominator for a period of roughly 70 seconds.

Maybe randomize the detonation time a little bit.

[TheNightingale]

It should stun you even if you have hearing protection, but for much less of a time. This incentivises Officers to hide behind walls (etc) to benefit from the extra few seconds of flashbang-stun.

[ShadowDimentio]

It violently overrates the power of a flashbang. Unless you cook it just right, there's going to be time for the perp to run away from it if you throw it. But if you hold it and run at them ALLHU ACKBAR style then you get hit with a hard stun from it too. It leads to a very well balanced risk/reward situation.

[onleavedontatme]

Except your team mates are all entirely immune even if you let it go off in your hand. Not much risk there.

[ShadowDimentio]

Making it stun the officers too would result in it never being used, ever.

[Steelpoint]

Flashbangs are only really useful in a enclosed space, outside of that its very easy for a perp to run out of the detonation radius.

I don't personally see any issues with flashbang balance, though I do have a security bias in that regard, since most antagonists are either immune or have access to counters to flashbangs/or they have access to equally powerful items and weapons that, while not countering the flashbangs, are very powerful in their own rights.

[Zilenan91]

Just make flashbangs stumble people with eye protection but no ear protection, and stun people with no protection.

[TheNightingale]

It violently overrates the power of a flashbang. Unless you cook it just right...

When you cook the flashbang just right...

[Malkevin]

I mean this is coming from the guy who likes secborgs

HOLY FUCK SAVAGE

The above post is racist and you should feel shame.

[ShadowDimentio]

When you cook the flashbang just right...

I laughed