Security uniforms have been ruined once again.

[Xhagi]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I don't really play sec except for once in a blue moon but bring back the red tide.

Not a big fan of random uniforms myself, but that's just a personal thing.

[Tornadium]

Well I decided to pull a Tornadium and talk to the REAL PLAYERS so I could make a completely ironclad and reliable anecdote about what they think and... asking OOC didn't even fish up anyone that liked it let alone anyone putting forth reasons to keep grey uniforms.

Try doing it when there is more than 20 people online.

Or back when this change was actually being introduced.

[DemonFiren]

No moving the goalposts, retardium.

[Tornadium]

No moving the goalposts, retardium.

Yeah because it's really moving the goal posts by asking someone to get opinions when half of the 17 people on the server aren't braindead or to gather opinions when the discussion about this change was actually relevant.

[DemonFiren]

[citation needed]

[Steelpoint]

Lets be frank but I can take Torn's argument of the people he's talked to claiming they liked the change as seriously as Cosmic's claim of the same.

As in arguing schematics over something that NO ONE ELSE can verify is a waste of our time.

The last, true, poll's done on this issue are a year old, and they ranged from being about 70% in favor of redsec to a split of 50/50 between redsec and grey sec, spread over two or so polls.

I should also note the PR that did put this change in was falsely named and did not get any real scrutiny until after it was merged, since on a glance the PR title made no illusion to it changing security sprites and in fact seemed more of "fixing" a but due to the title.

Also the fact that many people, including the art creator (Ausops) and a lead designer (Kor) have both stated their dislike of the Grey sprites should be sufficient weight to at least revert back to redcurity for the feature freeze.

[Lumbermancer]

Hey fam, I heard you liked your old red jumpsuit. So we're gonna give you assistant red jumpsuit, and change jackboots sprite to normal shoes.

[Grazyn]

Hey fam, I heard you liked your old red jumpsuit. So we're gonna give you assistant red jumpsuit, and change jackboots sprite to normal shoes.

Wait THAT was the steelpoint revert sprite? Ewww

[Wyzack]

Those are super duper old. Our helmets and armor actually used to look like that until based ausops delivered us from shittiness

[iamgoofball]

Oldsec is one of the randomized outfits.

[Steelpoint]

I don't know where those sprites came from.

Its got the newer helmet style but its using some abomination of a bright red sprite.

Also really Goof? Old sec sprites?

Those are horid by any standard.

[TechnoAlchemist]

Old sec Sprite harm me

[DemonFiren]

>you're literally the only one who misses oldsec

[Super Aggro Crag]

I like ancientsec too, I don't know what the obsession with super high fidelity mega detailed pixelshits is lately, I blame the abductors.

[DemonFiren]

I like ancientsec too, I don't know what the obsession with super high fidelity mega detailed pixelshits is lately, I blame the abductors.

Abductor machine and UFO sprites are weird. They don't seem to fit with much else. But then again I can never tell if that's the point.

Just like survival pods.

[Cheimon]

Option two sounds ideal, why not let the HOS have more impact? It's a tough job.

Besides, there's loads of loose clothing for sec that never gets used. It'd be neat to clear some of it up. Could you make the formal security clothing an option? It'd probably have to be made statistically identical but it'd be good to see it in play.

I apologise for suggesting this, the formal outfits look terrible with a normal helmet and brown shoes. And for some reason the warden and hos formal variants are exactly the same as the ones for officers.

[iamgoofball]

Formalsec isn't on the random list.

The only 5 things in the current randomlist on the server is Oldsec, Copsec, Corpsec, Redsec, and Greysec.

[Armhulen]

Formalsec isn't on the random list.

The only 5 things in the current randomlist on the server is Oldsec, Copsec, Corpsec, Redsec, and Greysec.

I really like this suggestion, with the random setups. I would like the hos to select it roundstart, but this works too.

[Incomptinence]

Well I decided to pull a Tornadium and talk to the REAL PLAYERS so I could make a completely ironclad and reliable anecdote about what they think and... asking OOC didn't even fish up anyone that liked it let alone anyone putting forth reasons to keep grey uniforms.

Try doing it when there is more than 20 people online.

Or back when this change was actually being introduced.

There were 30 and sorry sir I don't have a time machine.

[oranges]

Beyond that there really isn't much reasoning beyond people simply preferring the new scheme. So what this boils down to is personal preference on both sides. Not a single argument holds up outside of individual preference. Which is why this should be down to a community vote after a testing period rather than being subject to the opinions of maybe 8 people who all have a grudge against eachother.

Oh I am pretty sure there is another reasoning behind supporting the new colour scheme which makes me doubt many people actually like how it looks. Why you might see an example of this childish petulant motive right above this very post!

What reasoning would that be? That someone in coderbus wants to punish you personally by grude spriting you?

Come on man, stop reaching

[Sidon]

Using lesser quality sprites is a cancer. The grey ones are the best, just make them more red for the babbies.

[PKPenguin321]

Hey fam, I heard you liked your old red jumpsuit. So we're gonna give you assistant red jumpsuit, and change jackboots sprite to normal shoes.

o shit
i love dem shoes to be honest, this outfit isn't that bad

[Malkevin]

Greycurrity is looks ugly and makes sec blend into the floor and makes them resemble their second great enemy: the greyshirt. (first enemy of course being dat fukken clown and faggot mime)

And seeing as people are all "Oh, red is colour of bad and is the syndicates color - I can't tell who the good and bad guys are because I drink listerine all day and can't tell that maybe thats a subtle nod that NT aren't as good as they make out to be"...
I propose a solution to our problem.

Spoiler:

Black-currity!

Or alternatively, if you want something more modern...

Spoiler:

than the Hugo Boss selection, circa 1934, I suggest someone make this fetching "I can't believe its not fascism" number from Italy.










They appear to be holding hands, lol italians are gay.

[PKPenguin321]

malkevin those are nazi uniforms that is hardly subtle

edit: holy shit they even have a gas chamber with the mime in it down there

[Malkevin]

malkevin those are nazi uniforms that is hardly subtle

edit: holy shit they even have a gas chamber with the mime in it down there

[PKPenguin321]

oh okay im sorry i just thought that maybe since you're such a nazi normally it rubbed off onto your sprite ideas

[Malkevin]

They weren't the best dressed army of the 20th century for no reason.


Edit: The ironic thing of course is that I reused sprites that already exist in game, most of them already for security in fact.

Edit edit: Or how about white-currity?

Spoiler:

[Lumbermancer]

Sec is not army.

[Incomptinence]

What reasoning would that be? That someone in coderbus wants to punish you personally by grude spriting you?

Come on man, stop reaching

Not grudging me no I haven't been playing sec much at all recently.

the best part about closing steelpoint prs is seeing your butthurt on the forums immediately afterwards

That's not to say it's fine to hold grudges against people who are.

[Malkevin]

Sec is not army.

Tell that to the "corporate merc" jerks.

And neither is the NYPD but....

Spoiler:

You're not telling me this guy isn't checking your car for juden when he pulls you over.

[iamgoofball]

Malk, if you make full sets of gear for Warden/HoS/Security Officers, I'll rig it up for the altsprites system.

[Lumbermancer]

Tell that to the "corporate merc" jerks.

Death Squad and ERT are the mercs.

[Malkevin]

Nah, Death Squad are totally NT's in house black ops team that doesn't exist and isn't comprised of the most well paid janitors in the entirety of human space.

[Incomptinence]

Got the word from the man on the space street with 50 people on.

One for blue+white sec, one for blue and one man opined that grey sec was "the worst".

[paprika]

SECURITY UNIFORMS/EQUIPMENT AND WHY THEY'RE SO CONTROVERSIAL: A GUIDE TO THESE SHITTY ARGUMENTS BY THE PERSON WHO STARTED THEM

I'll try to be as articulate as possible and non-hostile like I was in the other thread. It was unfair of me to just try to bully everyone to see how me/coders in coderbus want sec to be. This isn't an ideal world, so let me be the first to apologize again. I'm passionate about this and want to see this issue resolved for the good of the server while making everyone happy and I wouldn't be UNIRONICALLY POSTING IN ANOTHER SEC SPRITE WARS THREAD if I didn't think I had a solution.

THE REAL PROBLEM

Conversion gamemodes caused this. Gamemodes and antags have been the driving force behind all this fucking stupid argumentation. Conversion gamemodes were a (poor) attempt to rekindle the magic of traitor (the best gamemode) while incorporating what makes nuke op (the second best gamemode) so great, working with a squad to take down the station or complete your objectives. Vise-versa, it gives sec a semi-organized 'team' to fight and PROTECT THE STATION FROM, but the REAL PROBLEM HERE is when you make conversion gamemodes, you TURN THE FUCKING CREW INTO THE ENEMY TEAM. Any competent sec player will see a crew member without a loyalty implant during a confirmed rev/gang/cult situation and think they're a potential threat. You'd be fucking stupid not to, but the problem this creates is you're no longer protecting the crew, you're thinking them as potential targets or aggressors. So who the fuck are you protecting anymore, besides the heads of staff during rev?

I hope you can see why this has totally shafted sec and made these gamemodes a self-destructive addition to the game.

Sure, aesthetics play a big role in these arguments, but have you really stopped to think why you want sec to look like mall cops or 'nice'? Why you want them to look tactical and like soldiers? I'm speaking to the people who have actually played a lot of sec here first and foremost. Mean-looking tactical sec (which I helped create with the new-ish gas masks and the old kneepad uniforms honestly) looks cool when you play as them, but they look hostile and like killers to the rest of the station a lot of the time, just propagating the shitcurity meme because a lot of the time they're tasing and force-implanting crewmembers.

Ultimately, the 'sec vs the crew' mentality that has spawned has made what is a good direction for sec THAT I USED TO EVEN WANT (sec looking like hardcore PMCs for hire protecting the station, see Steelpoint's avatar) into this disgusting 'with us or against us' shit.

WHAT I REALLY WANT

Steelpoint/ausops/malkevin/lum/whoever are right here. Sec should look tactical, sec should look armored, and sec should look ready to kick ass. The 'goofy redshirt' thing is a goon thing, which is long dead. Star trek redshirts also don't apply because the SS13 scenario is so far removed from star trek's it's just a flat comparison. The key difference here is the way we do it. Conversion gamemodes are fucking trash. People standing around afk reading wiki articles on how to play their antag role is fucking bad, and conversion rounds are !MOSTLY! steamrolls for either sec or the conversion team if they're people who know what they're doing.

Sec should not be bullying the crew by forcing their throbbing implants into the crews' soft noggins whenever someone gets flashed, they should be robusting BLOBS and NUKE OPS and SPACE PIRATES and LIZARDS. These antags are directly antagonistic towards security, the station, and most importantly, the crew. The tacticool aesthetic would work so much better if sec was actually working on protecting the crew most of the time by being badasses and engaging antags with their robust combat skills.

I think this is my last big post on this subject. I think it will solve both the 'security bias in the coderbus' and the 'muh sec sprites' problems if we were to axe these dumb conversion gamemodes, keeping only traitor/double agents as 'stealth' antags. Antags should really not be picked from the crew most of the time. My idea for removing the armory to solve this problem was too radical, and I think addressing the gamemodes of our codebase/server instead of making radical changes to sprites or the map is WAY easier.

Plus, adding new external antags means we don't have to remove anything, besides the fucking abortions that are the conversion antag gamemodes.


"""""B-B-B-BUT PAPRIKA, SS13 IS ABOUT PARANOIA!"""""""

Yeah, traitors create paranoia, not conversion antags. They're almost always blatant and loud, attacking sec in the open (gangs, revs) as soon as they get found out, and it's not some epic backstabbing gameplay like SS13 used to have. Besides, it's easy as fuck for a sec officer to confirm his paranoia by tasing you and searching your backpack for conversion antag items (tomes, spray cans, etc) or beat you in the head/implant you if he suspects you. That ISN'T fun paranoia gameplay, that's "lynch sec and loot the armory before they find out lol" which fucking blows.

Besides, Kor has already talked about the 'grief roulette' which doesn't need to be the main focus of the game anymore. ALL of this energy sec has about taking down antags should be focused on real, hardcore external threats to the station which we don't have anymore. Not only would it be more fun for the antag players since their gear would be WAY easier to balance, but the objectives and chaos could be generally way more creative than 'lol plant a thing and wait for the timer to go down and we win'. I'm not trying to attack Ikkarus here either, because for a while gang was fun when it was new, but ultimately it just became rev with uplinks.

[Steelpoint]

I remember back when Rev was the only conversion based antag of note, sure cult was a thing. Even then Cult and Rev were pretty rare to be selected as a game mode.

Perhaps Paprika has a good point that the propogation of conversion based game modes, that draw their antagonist from the crew itself, has had this kind of influence on security.

I will say Paprika is right that in security your often fighting the crew, not the antagonists. Anyone who doesn't have a implant is a possible threat during many of these game modes. Because of this it turns security into "protect the crew and station" to "protect security and myself" since anyone, and oft everyone, can be out to get you.

[paprika]

Nuke ops will always be my favorite gamemode because it's fun to play as the antags, AND sec, AND the crew (usually) because you're all scrambling to fight over the nuke disk.

Yeah, it's easy to metagame nuke ops when you notice the crew is understaffed or whatever, but that's why I suggest adding more gamemodes with external threats with varying team sizes. Maybe two different small antag teams arrive on the station and they're tearing it apart shooting sec as well as the other antag team trying to get their objective done. That's real, fun chaos for everyone and sec isn't the bad guy anymore.

Traitor will always be the core of this game, but traitor has actual paranoia because someone can be a traitor without you knowing or have any way to find out. You can't implant them, they might not have any traitor gear and their PDA can lock -- kind of like how changelings used to be before they got torn to shreds by tons of PRs. I think a general refocusing of our gamemodes will go a long way to make people lose this idea of sec needing to 'look nice' or 'play nice' and shit. I also think even the coders who are really against sec being really tacticool are only really against it because of the players and how they act in these gamemodes (see: my rant on sec furries) and not because of anything in particular. Hell, Ausops was the one who designed the original 'tacticool' sec sprites and hating on his sprites is like heresy to most coders in #coderbus because he's one of few with actual talent or at least putting effort into them.

I know there are people who enjoy gang, cult, and shit. I'm not saying they should go away forever. Cult in particular is a very classic gamemode for /tg/ at this point that I think can totally stick around, but it'd be way more fun if it was whitelisted (I know robustin is a fan of this idea) and only was added to the gamemodes weight if enough cult-approved players were readied up. Being a stealth antag AND a team player is a REALLY tough pill to swallow, which is why most cult rounds have been steamrolls since the beginning of time, and the gamemode would be way more fun if everyone rolling for cult made a short application on the forums after reading about how cult works. Then not only would it be super rare, but we could have those great rounds where the cult knows what they're fucking doing and uses runes instead of playing pseudo-rev and just trying to overpower sec or sneak a lot of members onto the shuttle.

[Saegrimr]

>Conversion gamemodes are why redshirts can't be red anymore.

Fucking brilliant.

[Grazyn]

Edit edit: Or how about white-currity?

Spoiler:

Whitecurity using straightjackets instead of cuffs and syringeguns instead of tasers so we can all feel like inmates in a lunatic asylum

[paprika]

>Conversion gamemodes are why redshirts can't be red anymore.

Fucking brilliant.

No conversion gamemodes are why 'corporate' and 'nice sec' came about because sec steamrolling gang rounds and being over-paranoid assholes

[Malkevin]

I was thinking more bludgeoning people to death with billyclubs, bikes chains, and hidden dagger canes.

Sure, aesthetics play a big role in these arguments, but have you really stopped to think why you want sec to look like mall cops or 'nice'? Why you want them to look tactical and like soldiers? I'm speaking to the people who have actually played a lot of sec here first and foremost. Mean-looking tactical sec (which I helped create with the new-ish gas masks and the old kneepad uniforms honestly) looks cool when you play as them, but they look hostile and like killers to the rest of the station a lot of the time, just propagating the shitcurity meme because a lot of the time they're tasing and force-implanting crewmembers.

Now do you finally get why I wanted the original voice hailer masks to look incredibly goofy?

Steelpoint/ausops/malkevin/lum/whoever are right here. Sec should look tactical, sec should look armored, and sec should look ready to kick ass. The 'goofy redshirt' thing is a goon thing, which is long dead. Star trek redshirts also don't apply because the SS13 scenario is so far removed from star trek's it's just a flat comparison.

Nope, I guess not.

I'm actually in favour of sec staying red and not looking tactical in the slightest.
Sec uniforms, and every other job for that matter, should look pretty bland and lack any personality, because I see NT as actually being the bond villains/Evil Genius goons of the story.

And if you insist on making sec look tactical you might as well go with the SS look seeing as Putting on the Reich is so over done it has its own TV Trope page, and so becomes goofy.

[Cheimon]

I remember back when Rev was the only conversion based antag of note, sure cult was a thing. Even then Cult and Rev were pretty rare to be selected as a game mode.

Perhaps Paprika has a good point that the propogation of conversion based game modes, that draw their antagonist from the crew itself, has had this kind of influence on security.

I will say Paprika is right that in security your often fighting the crew, not the antagonists. Anyone who doesn't have a implant is a possible threat during many of these game modes. Because of this it turns security into "protect the crew and station" to "protect security and myself" since anyone, and oft everyone, can be out to get you.

Yeah, it's a fair point that in the average revolution and gang rounds the crew would actually be safer without security (unless the dominator actually does something harmful). All that happens in those rounds is a bunch of crewmembers getting shot, beaten, and kidnapped for forcible implanting, there's not a strong reduction in overall violence unless the security team is really, really on top of things. At least cultists tend to hurt the crew more than anyone else and security defending heads of staff in a revolution makes sense, but in a gang war they're a completely redundant department.

[Grazyn]

I was thinking more bludgeoning people to death with billyclubs, bikes chains, and hidden dagger canes.

Sure, aesthetics play a big role in these arguments, but have you really stopped to think why you want sec to look like mall cops or 'nice'? Why you want them to look tactical and like soldiers? I'm speaking to the people who have actually played a lot of sec here first and foremost. Mean-looking tactical sec (which I helped create with the new-ish gas masks and the old kneepad uniforms honestly) looks cool when you play as them, but they look hostile and like killers to the rest of the station a lot of the time, just propagating the shitcurity meme because a lot of the time they're tasing and force-implanting crewmembers.

Now do you finally get why I wanted the original voice hailer masks to look incredibly goofy?

Steelpoint/ausops/malkevin/lum/whoever are right here. Sec should look tactical, sec should look armored, and sec should look ready to kick ass. The 'goofy redshirt' thing is a goon thing, which is long dead. Star trek redshirts also don't apply because the SS13 scenario is so far removed from star trek's it's just a flat comparison.

Nope, I guess not.

I'm actually in favour of sec staying red and not looking tactical in the slightest.
Sec uniforms, and every other job for that matter, should look pretty bland and lack any personality, because I see NT as actually being the bond villains/Evil Genius goons of the story.

And if you insist on making sec look tactical you might as well go with the SS look seeing as Putting on the Reich is so over done it has its own TV Trope page, and so becomes goofy.

>white mask with green lenses
add mickey mouse ears pls

Spoiler:

[Steelpoint]

Rev was/is fine due to it being a rare game mode, it was the exception not the rule. Which is why such extreme tactics employed by both sides were fine due to how uncommon Rev rounds were.

Yet those same extreme tactics are employed on a roundly basis in many of the new game modes we have that have a conversion aspect to it. Revolution, Shadowling and Gang all serve to create this weird situation where it seems Security is doing MORE harm to the crew than the actual antagonists because to do any less would result in utter failure.

Also not forgetting to mention how Gang seems to go to great effort to disadvantage security, so this creates a situation where security fight back even harder to the point where we get security rounding up people in cargo and preforming field executions on anyone outside.

People should see a security officer and at least feel safe, they should not see a officer and fear being suddenly arrested or executed.

-----

On the appearance issue I thought the current Red clothing was a great uniform design overall. It was simply a more refined version of the clothing sec wore years ago and overall it is a simple design. Where we also offer the more tactical looking clothing in the form of the bulletproof armour for those rare occasions.

[DemonFiren]

I was thinking more bludgeoning people to death with billyclubs, bikes chains, and hidden dagger canes.

Sword-canes should totally be craftable.

[InsaneHyena]

I forgot how we went from uniform colors to conversion antags, but Paprika and Steelpoint are right. Let's look at the current server revision - conversion antags take 40% of the rounds. Now, keep in mind that cultists and shadowlings don't really harm the crew - they kidnap and convert them. Gangs do violent shit, but largely to each other, normal crewmen get penned and converted. Revolution is literally enraged masses taking down their opressors. So, during 40% of the rounds security's job is literally to go full nazi, randomly tasing, searching and implanting people, raiding whole departments and executing everyone they can't (afford) to implant. Sec is encouraged by meta to be as shit as possible and to antagonize the crew as much as possible. Because if untersturmführer Shitballs won't tase the clown and drag him to the brig for implanting, harmbatoning him every time he yells "AI, SHITCURITY EXECUTING ME", a minute later that very same clown will slip untersturmführer Shitballs on a banana peel and chainsaw him to death.
The point is this - in 40% of the rounds security are the real danger to lives of the crew.

Also, doesn't bay have blue uniforms? We can try that.

[Incomptinence]

Beats having no colour at all in a game where all the departments sport a colour theme.

Could med bay go red then? Oh no that would obviously make them turn ultra-violent because humans are literal bulls.

So what's next on the agenda? Remapping to harmonise our feng shui?

[DemonFiren]

Dude, feng shui is a legitimate science.

[Lumbermancer]

The 'goofy redshirt' thing is a goon thing.

Sec should look tactical, sec should look armored

Those two are separate issues and not mutually exclusive at all. I don't really care how much tacticool you gonna make things if it's ALL RED. That said I prefer less tacticool. I prefer cop/security look and not fukken special forces look.

If I had spriting powers (and ruled the coderbus), I'd make everyone wear dark red suit pants, jackets, and light vest under it. Payday style.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[Grazyn]

Let's dispel this notion once and for all that sec exists to protect the crew. It does not. It exists to hunt antags

[Tornadium]

Let's dispel this notion once and for all that sec exists to protect the crew. It does not. It exists to hunt antags

Yeah but you really expect Sec to not hunt antags that you know are going to become a threat once they reach critical mass?

Sure that gang isn't causing any harm by recruiting people but if you don't stop them they're going to get SMGs and come fuck you up eventually with superior numbers and ambush tactics.

You can't expect sec players to intentionally play dumb to improve the round because it just makes sec even more unappealing to play (if it could get any worse).