Internal Jetpacks

[Steelpoint]

For a code base that strongly rejects balance PR's that are seen as power creep, I am gobsmacked of the hypocrisy of dislike towards the prevalence of jetpacks, yet allowing a PR that essentially gave most Hardsuits in game a INBUILT Jetpack, to be merged. Engineering, Atmospherics and the CE's Elite Hardsuit all have inbuilt, unremovable, jetpacks that draw the fuel from one's oxygen supply.

I find it insane that we're perfectly ok with proliferating jetpacks into the most common hardsuits in the game, yet we get absolutely disgusted about a PR (by someone that is not me) that allows the security hardsuits to simply hold a jetpack in the suit storage slot, not even giving security one.

Jetpacks are already cancer to deal with as security, now that any wannabe traitor can get easy access to it, let alone the fact that security has NO access to jetpacks and must break into EVA or beg the Captain for one.

This is also with the massive advantage of a internal jetpack letting you continue to have your backpack on your back slot. Which further serves to fuck over anyone trying to stop Mr Antag.

I much preferd the old balance of Jetpacks where only three (3) existed on the station. Two in EVA and one in the Captain's quarters. This was not only balanced, but also made it very hard for a station bound antagonist to dominate space with a jetpack as they had to risk breaking into EVA to get one.

This also made it somewhat possible to figure out and catch the traitor. In the long distant past, for example, I was able to deduce the identity of a traitor in space by doing a forensics examination of EVA to find out their identity.

------------------

For a code base that despises power creep I am appalled this change got through and remains as such, while in the same breath any PR meant to level the player field in a small way is busted on its ass and closed.

My proposal is simple, gut all Internal Jetpacks for station bound hardsuits, The only Jetpacks on the station at round start should be the Captain's and the two in EVA. If the CE really needs a jetpack he already has EVA access.

What are your thoughts on this?

(PS: Stop fucking moving anything security related to the fucking dustbin known as the cuck shed)

[Saegrimr]

I don't really give a fuck about security hardsuits but built in jetpack thing is pretty dumb.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I agree that built-in-jetpacks need to go

[Incomptinence]

Fault of the coders for non sensibly standardising space suit traits out of pettiness of obsession with raiding the armoury.

Hate on for sec aside we still have shit like standard greys in eva just bumming around. At least the sec hard suit can hold an airtank in suit storage these things are designed to be double cucked by milord engineer while he slaughters the plebs with their backpack slot mounted large air tanks and backpacks in hand. Does the engineer's job entail doing anything of the sort outside of antagonist activity? Not really but give it to them anyway!

[onleavedontatme]

I'd rather remove all internal jetpacks, because near immortality in space should come at the price of your back slot.

Compromise: Internal jetpack deploys like a helmet does.

[Steelpoint]

I'd rather remove all internal jetpacks, because near immortality in space should come at the price of your back slot.

Compromise: Internal jetpack deploys like a helmet does.

That would be better but I would rather go back to jetpacks being a physical thing found in EVA or for the Captain only.

Only alternative is also giving Security Hardsuits a internal jetpack with the same "helmet" function. It makes no sense why run of the mill Engineers and Atmo Techs get jetpacks yet the station's security force gets squat.

[onleavedontatme]

I mean I would rather remove internal jetpacks entirely as well but the drama doesnt seem worth it.

[Steelpoint]

I mean I would rather remove internal jetpacks entirely as well but the drama doesnt seem worth it.

What drama? Engineer players sad they lost out on a ez mode murderboning tool?

[Incomptinence]

I really would like for space to open up and have more space mobility and features this hogging of basic functionality to a sub section of a sub section though pretty much ensures that will never be the case.

This is one of the reasons we need a planet map.

[Steelpoint]

The only other alternative for jetpacks I would personally think is acceptable is significantly nerfing Jetpacks to only move as fast as a Human running indoors.

Which I think should be the case irrespective of internal jetpacks or otherwise.

[Okand37]

I'm actually really a fan of internal jetpacks having to deploy onto the back slot, but then there is the issue of refilling it. Wouldn't it be possible to remove inbuilt jetpacks, then add them as an item from research and development?

[Gun Hog]

Summary of the thread for those who do not want to read so much text: "I do not get an internal jetpack as HoS, so NO ONE gets one!"

[Scott]

Summary of the thread for those who do not want to read so much text: "I do not get an internal jetpack as HoS, so NO ONE gets one!"

[onleavedontatme]

I'm actually really a fan of internal jetpacks having to deploy onto the back slot, but then there is the issue of refilling it. Wouldn't it be possible to remove inbuilt jetpacks, then add them as an item from research and development?

Put the hardsuit in the canister, or pulse pressurize by attacking the can like the borg does.

[Steelpoint]

Summary of the thread for those who do not want to read so much text: "I do not get an internal jetpack as HoS, so NO ONE gets one!"

Oh fuck off Gun Hog.

Even if I had a fucking jetpack as a HoS I would still want this shit removed, internal jetpacks were always shit and jetpacks in general are horrible.

They are so blatantly overpowered that its insane they were merged in the first place, and the only reason security has seen more people want jetpacks is a DIRECT CAUSE of essentially every engineers and wannabe traitor now having round start access to a SUPERIOR version of a jetpack.

The internal jetpack is a direct upgrade over the backpack jetpack in every possible way, and its easier to get the internal jetpack than the backpack jetpack.

Your shitty "wah wah steely wants sec buffs" falls on its arse simply to the fact that I'm calling for its removal, I've never pushed in a PR to give security a internal jetpack, and I disagree with simply making internal jetpacks more common as the answer to this.

In conclusion, fuck off you dribbling inane moron, you too Scott.

[PKPenguin321]

internal jetpacks are alright for nuke ops. engineering suits and shit should not have stabilizers, and if they do keep the packs, they should be slower than just walking in space (so that you only use the jetpack for changing direction mid-drift).

[Anonmare]

I'd personally make internal jetpacks hilariously inefficient to balance them. Like, consuming 5x as much gas as proper jetpacks. Should only be for minute course corrections only, think like RCS thrusters.

[Steelpoint]

I'd personally make internal jetpacks hilariously inefficient to balance them. Like, consuming 5x as much gas as proper jetpacks. Should only be for minute course corrections only, think like RCS thrusters.

So basically a internal fire extinguisher.

[PKPenguin321]

yeah pretty much


edit: except for nuke op hardsuits which should keep them for tacticool/tactical purposes

[Anonmare]

I'd personally make internal jetpacks hilariously inefficient to balance them. Like, consuming 5x as much gas as proper jetpacks. Should only be for minute course corrections only, think like RCS thrusters.

So basically a internal fire extinguisher.

Yeah basically, though you wouldn't have to carry an extinguisher with you in your pack and you could probably get more uses out of it than an extinguisher.

[paprika]

Ok so I'm gonna offer my opinion since everyone loves my opinion on balance shit:

Personally I LOVE the idea of using your internals as a jetpack. It's a dangerous (and realistic!) tradeoff to be able to propel yourself around using what you need to live and I really fucking like the idea of built-in jetpacks but they were executed very poorly.

Here's some ideas from me:

1. Make all (back) jetpacks use fuel that lasts longer than using oxygen to propel yourself. This way we can have jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams memes and also keep back jetpacks around while serving a purpose.
2. Make ALL SPACE SUITS, INCLUDING THE ONES IN E.V.A. (except retro/gimmick ones) into hardsuits. Hardsuits are fucking sexy (t. person who coded them) as well as fun to use and way less clunky to deal with than having a helmet + suit.
3. Give ALL HARDSUITS the ability to use oxygen to propel themselves around, BUT ONLY THROUGH THE BACK SLOT, instead of the suit slot (which is the current implementation). The suit slot is essentially for guns and storage, and single-items only. This forces you to give up your backpack or carry it in order to use a LARGE oxygen tank to propel yourself around.
4. Vastly nerf the ability of a full emergency oxygen tank to keep you alive. I'm thinking somewhere like 1 minute by default, and 3 minutes when it's full. This will keep people constantly switching those tiny pocket-sized tanks when they need to use them and buff the ability of a back-sized tank for space walking.

A lot of other things will need to be changed when it comes to this balance shit, but ultimately your best bet is to unify all hardsuits into the dead space esque system because dead space (1) has probably the best canon for blue collar type space suits when it comes to the deadliness of uncharted space.

[Scott]

Summary of the thread for those who do not want to read so much text: "I do not get an internal jetpack as HoS, so NO ONE gets one!"

Oh fuck off Gun Hog.

Even if I had a fucking jetpack as a HoS I would still want this shit removed, internal jetpacks were always shit and jetpacks in general are horrible.

They are so blatantly overpowered that its insane they were merged in the first place, and the only reason security has seen more people want jetpacks is a DIRECT CAUSE of essentially every engineers and wannabe traitor now having round start access to a SUPERIOR version of a jetpack.

The internal jetpack is a direct upgrade over the backpack jetpack in every possible way, and its easier to get the internal jetpack than the backpack jetpack.

Your shitty "wah wah steely wants sec buffs" falls on its arse simply to the fact that I'm calling for its removal, I've never pushed in a PR to give security a internal jetpack, and I disagree with simply making internal jetpacks more common as the answer to this.

In conclusion, fuck off you dribbling inane moron, you too Scott.

You wanted them to be added to sec hardsuits in the past, so you were clearly fine with internal jetpacks before. You were just not happy that sec hardsuits didn't have them.

[Incomptinence]

Well since people literally endorsing engineering being space kings because actually entering the station is too risky for them how about we just go whole hog.

Rename CE hardsuit to ZEUS SUPREMACY SUIT and give it a built in tesla gun. I mean if he leads the space gods he surely is their king.

[oranges]

Make the pr to remove this I'll merge it

[Hornygranny]

cancer, remove this

[Steelpoint]

@Scott: I've never made a PR to give sec hardsuits a internal jetpack.

@oranges: If a removal PR has not been put up by the time I get to a computer I'll make one.

[Zilenan91]

We could also just make it so that if an internal jetpack deploys onto the back to make it still pull from your oxygen supply in your hardsuit storage. You'd just have to refill the tank to refill the jetpack supply rather than putting in the whole suit.

[Saegrimr]

Fire extinguisher is low-tier space faring.

Paper bin or stack of rods is where its at.

[Steelpoint]

xxalpha just beat me to a removal PR: https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/18028

[Sidon]

i am gobsmacked that is is being considered right now

[Malkevin]

Its not like engineers ever go EVA to fix shit anyway, only time they bother going into space is to sometimes maybe wire up the solars - and if they manage to fall off of them they deserve to have to throw their shoes.

[J_Madison]

It's a dangerous (and realistic!) tradeoff

No. It really isn't. This is coming from the guy who has mastered space travel without GPS and can map the space taurus without it.

[oranges]

it's torus

[paprika]

Fine it's a dangerous and hollywood tradeoff that is fun as h*ck

Just make it use the backpack slot instead of the suit slot so you can only use those big tanks and can't carry a backpack, wow, so hard

[onleavedontatme]

I will readd internal jetpacks tonight hopefully.

Here are my """"design"""" notes about them

-They will retract/deploy like a hardsuit helmet. This gives them an advantage in portability.
-You refill them by hitting a canister with your suit and waiting ~5 seconds. This gives them a disadvantage in capacity. You wont be able to refill it in space without getting hurt.

This will make it more of a sidegrade rather than a straight upgrade.

[paprika]

I will readd internal jetpacks tonight hopefully.

Here are my """"design"""" notes about them

-They will retract/deploy like a hardsuit helmet. This gives them an advantage in portability.
-You refill them by hitting a canister with your suit and waiting ~5 seconds. This gives them a disadvantage in capacity. You wont be able to refill it in space without getting hurt.

This will make it more of a sidegrade rather than a straight upgrade.

No, this is really shit gameplay design. Hitting a canister with your suit is fucking awful. Having them deploy like hardsuit helmets is awful. Just make people put tanks on their backs instead of their suit slot, it doesn't hemmorage usability and ruin the game.

[Steelpoint]

Or we can keep the older balance of making Jetpacks just a actual backpack item that is in short supply on station?

As I've been saying, Jetpacks themselves would be fine if they moved at the same speed as someone on the station, or even a bit slower, but that running along the exterior wall of the station still let you move as fast as it does now. This would crate a better dynamic where a Jetpack is better for course corrections and in combat but if you need to get from A to B then hugging the walls is quicker.

If that was the case, then Jetpacks would not be so overpowered and a problem as they are now.

Also it would be more justifiable to throw security a bone and toss them a single jetpack. Hell I'll make a sprite.

[Sidon]

buffing security?

never ever

very gobsmacked right now

[Steelpoint]

Even if Kor offered to give the security hardsuits the very same internal jetpack being used by engineering I would tell him not to, at least with the current state of internal jetpacks being horribly overpowered.

[lzimann]

I will readd internal jetpacks tonight hopefully.

Here are my """"design"""" notes about them

-They will retract/deploy like a hardsuit helmet. This gives them an advantage in portability.
-You refill them by hitting a canister with your suit and waiting ~5 seconds. This gives them a disadvantage in capacity. You wont be able to refill it in space without getting hurt.

This will make it more of a sidegrade rather than a straight upgrade.

The refill part is kinda bad and unecessary

[Zilenan91]

The refill is a bit weird yeah but it works.

[Actionb]

Isn't there a way to make to make internal jetpacks slower?
I always imagined them to be more like simple thrusters than a real jetpack - for changing directions in space and stuff.

While I see the charm in using fire extinguishers, it's a bit silly to assume engineers going for some quick EVA don't have a 'professional' way of maneuvering in space on a SPACE STATION, LITERALLY SURROUNDED BY SPACE, IN THE SPACE FUTURE.

Also:

Or we can keep the older balance of making Jetpacks just a actual backpack item that is in short supply on station?

Also it would be more justifiable to throw security a bone and toss them a single jetpack. Hell I'll make a sprite.

Either take away/alter jetpacks from non-security or give security one. Don't do both. I'd prefer the former because muh power creep.

[Steelpoint]

I should note that a PR was recently merged that gave the CE back his Inbuilt Internal Jetpack.

[Incomptinence]

I should note that a PR was recently merged that gave the CE back his Inbuilt Internal Jetpack.

Well thats just sneakily buffing HE OWN JOB!

[ShadowDimentio]

The other head gear should really be buffed to be vaguely as good as the CE's hardsuit.