Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

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Do you support the current armour values?

Abstain
1
3%
Yes
14
39%
No
21
58%
 
Total votes: 36

TheNightingale
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Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by TheNightingale » #188295

Bottom post of the previous page:

Screemonster wrote:Snip.
^Do this.

1 DR for minor armour (hardsuits, etc), 5 DR for Security/black-and-red, 7 for the Captain/HoS/Ops, 10 for riot/bulletproof/ablative/ERT, 15 for deathsquad. Badabing badaboom, dedicated melee weapons are still powerful, and armour actually protects against stuff.
Buckshot is for unarmoured targets anyway; using it on an Officer will still hurt, but less.
Zilenan91
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Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by Zilenan91 » #188352

For ablative and bulletproof I don't think that DR would work. Unlike melee weapons, our ranged weapons are ALL low damage high rate of fire. For a simple C20-R this cuts the damage in half right out of the gate and then puts it to a whopping 2 brute per bullet if they get shot in the chest. On the head it's 6. This means security would be pretty much invulnerable to Ops. Ablative would be even worse since it not only has like 80% energy armor but it can also reflect energy projectiles back at people, completely negating the damage.

If this system were to be implemented, which it sounds like it would be since it's a good idea, it should only be for the HoS, detective, and security/barman armor vests since they tend to be more generalist in what they protect against rather than completely specialized. If the DR and current armor values for the specialized ones were applied they would be basically immune to those damage types.
Spoiler:
Zilenan91 wrote:
Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS
TheNightingale
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Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by TheNightingale » #188358

I think the suggestion was instead of a percentage resistance, not as well as; so DR 5 means a 25-brute bullet does 20 instead, but a revolver.... wait, this still means the. 357 can 2HKO anyone.
Zilenan91
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Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by Zilenan91 » #188359

With just DR, yes. With armor percentages factored in I think sec officers barely survive three but they just bleed out seconds later anyways so it hardly matters. With Steelpoints armor values they survive three and can probably maybe possibly get to Medbay if they can get away or dunk the guy who shot them in time which would be the aim of such a change. Against everything but a revolver, however, it would make them significantly more durable.
Spoiler:
Zilenan91 wrote:
Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS
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Steelpoint
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Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by Steelpoint » #188384

Now if only I could code.

The DR thing sounds like a better alternative.
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Malkevin

Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by Malkevin » #188392

Give armor HP, more damage it absorbs the worst its protection gets

Bit like how real life kevlar is basically a woolly jacket after it takes a bullet.
Zilenan91
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Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by Zilenan91 » #188395

durability is a shit mechanic
Spoiler:
Zilenan91 wrote:
Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS
Malkevin

Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by Malkevin » #188410

you're a shit mechanic
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Steelpoint
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Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by Steelpoint » #188414

Does Goonstation armour use durability or am I talking out my arse?

Either way I'm not so sure on durability for armour.
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TheNightingale
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Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by TheNightingale » #188417

Durability on its own would just be a nerf to armour; you'd need to increase its protective values significantly to make up for it. (But if you do that, the PR doesn't get merged, because "THEY BUFF THEY OWN JOB" memes.)
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ShadowDimentio
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Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by ShadowDimentio » #188462

Someone code it but whatever you do Steelpoint don't go near it. If you do the code autists will sense your presence and it'll get denied on the spot.
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TheNightingale
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Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by TheNightingale » #188538

No, no, no. Code it, but then give the code to someone who isn't vocal about Sec being underpowered, and have them PR it.
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Steelpoint
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Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by Steelpoint » #188634

I couldn't code it if I wanted to, I'm not a coder.

Durability for armour would be fine if armour was made significantly more stronger than it is now.
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TheNightingale
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Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by TheNightingale » #188706

Something along these lines:
Spoiler:
Armour has x melee durability value, y bullet durability value and z energy durability value. Every attack that hits the wearer transfers {resistance}% of the damage from the attack, into the durability; the rest goes to the target as usual. When one of the values hits 0, the armour falls apart.

Example 1: Armour with bullet durability 50 and bullet resistance 50% is hit with a 50-brute bullet. This would mean the target only takes 25 damage, and the remaining 25 hits the armour, reducing its durability to 25. The resistance remains unchanged (or maybe it's directly tied to the durability, so follow-up hits do more damage?). The next shot does the same thing, and the armour reaches 0 durability in one of its values (here, bullet), falling apart - it no longer provides any protection unless repaired to full durability. The target takes another 25 damage, for a total of 50. Another shot will send them into crit, so their armour protected them from damage equivalent to one shot.

Example 2: Armour with melee durability 150, melee resistance 75%, energy durability 30, energy resistance 15%, is attacked with a melee weapon that does 30 brute, as well as having armour-piercing 40. The armour takes 35% (75-40) of this damage - 10.5. The remaining 19.5 transfers to the target. The armour's durability value is reduced by 10.5 (the damage it took)... as well as the 40 armour piercing (total 50.5). The target is attacked again, for the same amount; they've now taken 39 damage, and are bleeding. Lesson? Energy swords, etc, are good at cutting up riot gear.
The target is now shot five times with an energy gun (20 burn, energy). The shots do 17 damage (3 being saved from the 15% resistance). It would take ten shots to completely destroy the target's armour (30/3=10); but killing them is easy, since after taking 39 damage, only four shots are needed to send them into crit.

Problems with this:
* Armour remains just as protective against the same attack at 50 durability as it does at 500. Maybe it gradually falls apart, and the resistance value is equal to the durability value? (But wait - with a universal durability pool, this means riot gear is good against everything!)
* Armour with less protection actually takes longer to fall apart than armour with more protection, since it's soaking less damage. Perhaps the entire damage transfers to the durability pool, but the target resists (resistance%)?
* Being hit with a weapon of one type doesn't affect the armour against weapons of other types. Giving a universal durability pool to the armour might work, but this means armours designed to work well against one type (e.g. ablative) take a long time to be destroyed by other types (melee, bullet) - just like problem 2.
Or, if you don't want to read all that...
Spoiler:
Conclusion: armour has Durability a (a flat value), as well as melee/bullet/energy resistance b/c/d (percentages). As a decreases, calculate (current durability/total durability - e.g. 75% means the armour is 75% intact), and then apply that percentage to the resistances. At 75% durability (e.g. 75/100), the resistance values are 75% of what they usually are (so bullet resistance 60 turns to bullet resistance 45); at 10% durability, they only protect against 10% of their original (so melee resistance 25 turns to melee resistance... 2.5).
When an attack is received, b/c/d% of it is resisted, and the user takes the unresisted damage. The entire damage from the attack, including the resisted damage, is transferred to the durability pool.

Some examples ahead, you can stop reading now if you like.

Example: An ERT trooper's armour might have 60/60/60 resistance, as well as 500 durability. Someone shoots the trooper with a revolver, which does 60 brute damage (bullet). 60% of this is resisted, so the trooper takes 24 damage; the armour is reduced to 440/500, or 88% durability. Its new values are 53/53/53 (well, 52.8).
The trooper is hit with another shot. It does 60 brute - of which only 53% (31.8, or 32) damage is resisted; now they take 28 damage, and the armour is reduced to 380/500, or 76%. By now, an unarmoured person would be in crit. The new armour values are 46/46/46, and the trooper has taken 52 damage, and is bleeding.
The trooper is hit with another shot. 46% of this is resisted, so the armour soaks 28 damage - but the other 32 transfers to the trooper, who has now taken 84 damage. The armour is now at 320/500, or 64% (see how it's going down by 12% each time, since 60 is 12% of 500?); its new values are 38/38/38, down from 60/60/60.
The trooper is hit with another shot. 38% of this is resisted, so the armour soaks 23 damage; the trooper takes 37 damage, and falls into crit. The armour is now at 240/500, or 52%, with new resistance values of 31/31/31.

The ERT trooper took four shots to take down, as opposed to the two from an unarmoured target. The values there are just for explanation; the actual durability would be much less, since armour falling apart is fun - it also means if you hurt someone in a hardsuit (high durability, low resistance) enough, they're not protected from space! Ideally, armour would fall apart at about the same point where the target reaches low HP; so even if they win the fight or get healed, they're not clear to get into another encounter until they fix their armour.
The same principle could apply to shields; instead of a block chance of 50%, give them a flat 50/50/50 resistance (or, say, 25/25/100 for the eshield), and ~100 durability. Damage that passes the shield hits the armour. Doesn't that mean you can take out an eshield with five energy gun shots? Yes. Yes, it does.

... okay, how about that same ERT trooper in the surprisingly durable armour, but versus an energy sword (32 brute/melee, AP, say, 40)?
First hit ignores 40 of the resistance, total 20% resisted, so the ERT trooper takes 26 damage (6 is saved). The armour's durability is reduced by 72, for a total of 428. Its new resistances are 51/51/51. The next hit ignores 40 of that... so the ERT trooper only resists 11%, taking 28 damage (4 is saved, and they've taken 54 so far). The armour's durability is reduced by 72, for a total of 356/500, or 71%. Its new resistances are 42/42/42. The next hit ignores 40 of that, total resisted 2%, or 1 damage; the trooper takes 31 damage (now they've taken 85 - most people would've been hit for 96... the armour doesn't do much here), the armour takes 72. Its new durability is 284/500, or 57%, and the new resistances, 34/34/34. Subsequent hits ignore armour entirely, but continue to drop its durability.
It takes four hits to crit the ERT trooper with an energy sword. It takes four hits to crit anyone else with an energy sword, too, since 40 AP is really good.

Damage if they had a 50/50/50 shield too, and were being shot at with a stetchkin:
50% of 25 = 12.5 (13) damage is saved. The shield takes 25 durability damage, total 75 (new resistances 37.5%), and 12 damage hits the armour...
60% of which is resisted (7). The armour takes 12 durability damage, total 488 (97%, new resistances 58/58/58), and the target takes 5 damage, out of an original 25.
Doesn't that mean you can magdump someone with a shield and good armour (e.g. the HoS) and you might not come out on top? Yes. Yes, it does. You have to play smart now, rather than .357 your way to victory.

Actually, let's examine that. Hypothetical HoS values of 50/50/50, durability 200, and a shield of 50/50/50, durability 100 (a real shield should probably be more durable than this, as you'll see).
The first shot drops the shield to 40/40% durability (20/20/20) as 30 damage is soaked. The 30 damage transfers to the armour; half is resisted, so the HoS takes 15 damage. The new armour durability is 170 (85%), so the new values are 43/43/43. So far, so good.
The next shot kills the shield, removing its protection entirely. Just 40 of the 60 damage can hit the shield, so let's analyse that. The 40 damage is turned into 32 damage, due to the 20% resistance. The shield no longer functions, since its durability value is 0. But don't forget the other 20 damage!
The HoS's trenchcoat takes 52 damage; 43% (22) of this is resisted, so the HoS takes 30 damage (total damage taken: 45). The armour drops to 118/200, or 59%, and the new resistances become 30/30/30. The HoS has now taken two shots from a revolver, for 45 damage; most people would be in crit around this point, at 120.
The next shot ignores the shield (durability 0/100, resistances 0/0/0 - if the HoS lives, they should really repair it), and just 30% (18) of the damage is resisted - the HoS takes 42 damage (total 87 - unarmoured people would've taken 180 by now, and the current HoS would've taken either 0, 42, 84 or 126, depending on RNG). The HoS's armour now has durability 58/200, resistance 15/15/15. Another shot will both ruin the armour and crit the HoS - so it takes four shots to take down this particular HoS with their shield. In contrast, the current HoS-with-shield resists a flat 30%, as well as blocking half the shots they take; each shot does 42 damage, it takes three to crit, assume either one or two is blocked, so it takes between four and five shots. The shield durability should probably be higher - 150, maybe.
Malkevin

Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by Malkevin » #188711

Uhhh... your tl/dr is meant to be shorter than the main body.
TheNightingale
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Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by TheNightingale » #188725

... good point. Okay, long story short, armour durability and resistance, armour falls apart when hit too much, but the resistance is much higher than it is now. Armour is, in general, better if you're going into one fight, but if you get into multiple fights, you should repair it in between.
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Screemonster
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Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by Screemonster » #188732

TheNightingale wrote:... good point. Okay, long story short, armour durability and resistance, armour falls apart when hit too much, but the resistance is much higher than it is now. Armour is, in general, better if you're going into one fight, but if you get into multiple fights, you should repair it in between.
make something with 100% resist against burn/brute but no bio and limited durability

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Gun Hog
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Re: Armour Wars: Episode 3, Revenge of the Balance

Post by Gun Hog » #188823

Screemonster wrote:
TheNightingale wrote:... good point. Okay, long story short, armour durability and resistance, armour falls apart when hit too much, but the resistance is much higher than it is now. Armour is, in general, better if you're going into one fight, but if you get into multiple fights, you should repair it in between.
make something with 100% resist against burn/brute but no bio and limited durability
Shielded Hardsuits are exactly this.
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