Double Agent is godawful
- Cheridan
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:04 am
- Byond Username: Cheridan
Double Agent is godawful
It was added with the intent of being this cool Spy Vs Spy mode with traitors dueling with eswords in the halls and stuff, but what actually happens is it ends up being is 2x the amount of traitors of a Traitor round, all murderboning and dropping syndibombs.
And even if people were restraining themselves to just their target + defending themselves from their attacker instead of trying to kill everyone just in case, it's still not engaging gameplay because SS13 is mostly about ambushing people before they can react. You can boil it down to who sees their target first to click them twice with a revolver.
The mode's been changed heavily since it was first added (At first, the agents knew it was DA mode and that there was someone after them, so obviously they just killed as many people as possible and nuked the shit out of the station in hopes of randomly hitting their target) but its still just as flawed and doesn't actually do anything that Traitor doesn't already supply.
And even if people were restraining themselves to just their target + defending themselves from their attacker instead of trying to kill everyone just in case, it's still not engaging gameplay because SS13 is mostly about ambushing people before they can react. You can boil it down to who sees their target first to click them twice with a revolver.
The mode's been changed heavily since it was first added (At first, the agents knew it was DA mode and that there was someone after them, so obviously they just killed as many people as possible and nuked the shit out of the station in hopes of randomly hitting their target) but its still just as flawed and doesn't actually do anything that Traitor doesn't already supply.
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
Most sensible solution: Tell them it's DA, tell them they have only a single target, tell them they can't kill other people FNR. Retheme it as Nanotrasen agents tasked with eliminating suspected traitors or something if you have to.
More complicated solutions: Give every traitor a protect objective for another traitor as well, give them all syndie comms by default. Still might be a bloodbath though.
Most complicated and controversial at all: Incentives for actually finishing your goals.
More complicated solutions: Give every traitor a protect objective for another traitor as well, give them all syndie comms by default. Still might be a bloodbath though.
Most complicated and controversial at all: Incentives for actually finishing your goals.
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- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
Or just scrap the mode I guess whichever
- ShadowDimentio
- Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 3:15 am
- Byond Username: David273
Re: Double Agent is godawful
We see too many traitor rounds IMO. We have traitor, DA, and traitorchan-- these should all be rolled into one mode that decides the flavor at roundstart. 33% chance for each, 1% chance for MADNESS METABREAKER ROUND where all three happen at once. The remaining mode odds can be handed out to the more obscure modes like wizard and blob.
Also unless something changed you can't buy syndiebombs in DA.
Also unless something changed you can't buy syndiebombs in DA.
Spoiler:
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- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:31 pm
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
There is a reason why I typically buy sleeping carp if I suspect it is DA, if only so I dont instantly die to 2 revolver shots or get perma-stunned by an e-bow.
maybe restrict the more destructive weapons from the uplink during DA? make DA uplike the opposite of the nuke ops uplink and have it focused on stealth and gadgets as opposed to weapons. Of course you would have to tell the traitors that it is DA, but if they don't have access to syndiebombs, dual e-swords, revolvers, and e-bows they will have a distinctly harder time murder-boning.
It would make finding or creating your murder method a major goal of the round.
If they want to cause mass damage they will actually have to use their job abilities or their brains to do it instead of buying a dual e-sword and murdering everyone else so you don't die.
maybe restrict the more destructive weapons from the uplink during DA? make DA uplike the opposite of the nuke ops uplink and have it focused on stealth and gadgets as opposed to weapons. Of course you would have to tell the traitors that it is DA, but if they don't have access to syndiebombs, dual e-swords, revolvers, and e-bows they will have a distinctly harder time murder-boning.
It would make finding or creating your murder method a major goal of the round.
If they want to cause mass damage they will actually have to use their job abilities or their brains to do it instead of buying a dual e-sword and murdering everyone else so you don't die.
- ShadowDimentio
- Joined: Thu May 08, 2014 3:15 am
- Byond Username: David273
Re: Double Agent is godawful
Making DA just Traitor but you can only buy the bad items from the uplink will only make things even more boring.
Spoiler:
- Oldman Robustin
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
- Byond Username: ForcefulCJS
Re: Double Agent is godawful
That option should be neither of those things. By blindly murderboning and looting gearing I can easily rack up over 60TC worth of shit in a DA round, it's just straight up stupid to not consider rewarding people who exercise discretion and focus on their target. You have to tag the target's corpse with your PDA to collect the bounty. A clean kill is worth 10TC, -2TC for each unique person you attack before redeeming your bounty. After each kill you're automatically assigned whoever your target was currently assigned. Tagging with your PDA would also prevent them from being cloned for the round (which would also help prevent the bounty system from getting abused). Instead of the bonus being a flat 10TC, it could also start at 6 or so and scale up as there are fewer and fewer DA's left standing (to encourage people to keep focusing on targets).Kor wrote: Most complicated and controversial at all: Incentives for actually finishing your goals.
It's kind of crazy that DA doesn't even fill a unique niche and yet people are so hesitant to try and give it one. Worst case scenario is DA flops and it just ends up being traitor rounds, which it already is.
- Steelpoint
- Github User
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
We're already in the worst case scenario, the only thing that can get worse is if the game mode is removed.
No point in trying something extreme to see if we can revive the game mode.
No point in trying something extreme to see if we can revive the game mode.
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- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:24 pm
- Byond Username: Jacough
Re: Double Agent is godawful
Could try restricting their items to more of the secret agent type stuff. Basically prevent them from ordering the more murderbone oriented weapons like eswords.
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
- Byond Username: Cedarbridge
Re: Double Agent is godawful
The closest we ever got to Spy vs Spy was Doccument Trade objectives. Obviously, those kinda suck when the first time sec sees you or your target the jig is entirely up forever and both are screwed.
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- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:24 pm
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
Maybe they shouldn't be swapping documents in public?cedarbridge wrote:The closest we ever got to Spy vs Spy was Doccument Trade objectives. Obviously, those kinda suck when the first time sec sees you or your target the jig is entirely up forever and both are screwed.
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
- Byond Username: Cedarbridge
Re: Double Agent is godawful
Doesn't matter. Once one gets caught by sec, sec instantly goes through all of their shit, finds doccuments, first outs the second. over and over.Jacough wrote:Maybe they shouldn't be swapping documents in public?cedarbridge wrote:The closest we ever got to Spy vs Spy was Doccument Trade objectives. Obviously, those kinda suck when the first time sec sees you or your target the jig is entirely up forever and both are screwed.
- Cobby
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
There's also that small tiny problem that the traitor typically kills you because 1) they have a keep your files obj or 2) think YOU have a keep your files obj
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
- Wyzack
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:32 pm
- Byond Username: Wyzack
Re: Double Agent is godawful
It might be worth trying tightening the objectives and restrictions a little bit and seeing if that is enough to steer the gamemode back towards the intended gameplay before taking more drastic action
Arthur Thomson says, "Since there are no admins I would loging with another account and kill you"
Caleb Robinson laughs.
Arthur Thomson catches fire!
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Caleb Robinson laughs.
Arthur Thomson catches fire!
tusterman11 wrote:Can you stop lying? I just asked you and you are was a piece of shiit on me!!!
EngamerAzari's real number one fangirl <3Kor wrote:I wish Wyzack was still an admin.
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
Something like:
You are the Nanotrasen Internal Affairs Agent!
Your target is suspected of [crime], and you have been tasked with eliminating them by any means necessary to avoid a costly and embarrassing public trial. While you have a license to kill, unneeded property damage or loss of employee life will lead to your contract being terminated.
For the sake of plausible deniability, you have been equipped with an array of captured Syndicate weaponry. PDA blah blah blah uplink code
Finally, watch your back. [target] has friends in high places, and intel suggests someone may have taken out a contract of their own to protect them.
And then make it clear that it is OOC enforceable to not kill random people as Internal Affairs
You are the Nanotrasen Internal Affairs Agent!
Your target is suspected of [crime], and you have been tasked with eliminating them by any means necessary to avoid a costly and embarrassing public trial. While you have a license to kill, unneeded property damage or loss of employee life will lead to your contract being terminated.
For the sake of plausible deniability, you have been equipped with an array of captured Syndicate weaponry. PDA blah blah blah uplink code
Finally, watch your back. [target] has friends in high places, and intel suggests someone may have taken out a contract of their own to protect them.
And then make it clear that it is OOC enforceable to not kill random people as Internal Affairs
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- Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:19 am
- Byond Username: Gun Hog
Re: Double Agent is godawful
Working as intended! Do not forget the 'remove papers from the folder and only give the other guy the folder' trick!ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:There's also that small tiny problem that the traitor typically kills you because 1) they have a keep your files obj or 2) think YOU have a keep your files obj
- Wyzack
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:32 pm
- Byond Username: Wyzack
Re: Double Agent is godawful
This is pretty cool soundingKor wrote:Something like:
You are the Nanotrasen Internal Affairs Agent!
Your target is suspected of [crime], and you have been tasked with eliminating them by any means necessary to avoid a costly and embarrassing public trial. While you have a license to kill, unneeded property damage or loss of employee life will lead to your contract being terminated.
For the sake of plausible deniability, you have been equipped with an array of captured Syndicate weaponry. PDA blah blah blah uplink code
Finally, watch your back. [target] has friends in high places, and intel suggests someone may have taken out a contract of their own to protect them.
And then make it clear that it is OOC enforceable to not kill random people as Internal Affairs
Arthur Thomson says, "Since there are no admins I would loging with another account and kill you"
Caleb Robinson laughs.
Arthur Thomson catches fire!
certified good poster
Caleb Robinson laughs.
Arthur Thomson catches fire!
tusterman11 wrote:Can you stop lying? I just asked you and you are was a piece of shiit on me!!!
EngamerAzari's real number one fangirl <3Kor wrote:I wish Wyzack was still an admin.
certified good poster
- Armhulen
- Global Moderator
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
I was kinda hoping for nanotrasen traitor gear thoughWyzack wrote:This is pretty cool soundingKor wrote:Something like:
You are the Nanotrasen Internal Affairs Agent!
Your target is suspected of [crime], and you have been tasked with eliminating them by any means necessary to avoid a costly and embarrassing public trial. While you have a license to kill, unneeded property damage or loss of employee life will lead to your contract being terminated.
For the sake of plausible deniability, you have been equipped with an array of captured Syndicate weaponry. PDA blah blah blah uplink code
Finally, watch your back. [target] has friends in high places, and intel suggests someone may have taken out a contract of their own to protect them.
And then make it clear that it is OOC enforceable to not kill random people as Internal Affairs
- Bluespace
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:04 pm
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- Location: UK
Re: Double Agent is godawful
That's what he suggested though.Armhulen wrote:I was kinda hoping for nanotrasen traitor gear thoughWyzack wrote:This is pretty cool soundingKor wrote:Something like:
You are the Nanotrasen Internal Affairs Agent!
Your target is suspected of [crime], and you have been tasked with eliminating them by any means necessary to avoid a costly and embarrassing public trial. While you have a license to kill, unneeded property damage or loss of employee life will lead to your contract being terminated.
For the sake of plausible deniability, you have been equipped with an array of captured Syndicate weaponry. PDA blah blah blah uplink code
Finally, watch your back. [target] has friends in high places, and intel suggests someone may have taken out a contract of their own to protect them.
And then make it clear that it is OOC enforceable to not kill random people as Internal Affairs
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- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
- Byond Username: KorPhaeron
Re: Double Agent is godawful
I want to reuse syndie items because
A) It's way less work
B) If its NT gear than we'll have way more :s ITS DOUBLE AGENTS and I AM A FRIENDLY INTERNAL AFFAIRS HERE IS MY TARGET SECURITY I CAN PROVE IT WITH MY NT BRAND ITEM
A) It's way less work
B) If its NT gear than we'll have way more :s ITS DOUBLE AGENTS and I AM A FRIENDLY INTERNAL AFFAIRS HERE IS MY TARGET SECURITY I CAN PROVE IT WITH MY NT BRAND ITEM
- Wyzack
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:32 pm
- Byond Username: Wyzack
Re: Double Agent is godawful
Yeah maybe add something in there about not revealing your mission to NT security or command staff to avoid further scandal
Arthur Thomson says, "Since there are no admins I would loging with another account and kill you"
Caleb Robinson laughs.
Arthur Thomson catches fire!
certified good poster
Caleb Robinson laughs.
Arthur Thomson catches fire!
tusterman11 wrote:Can you stop lying? I just asked you and you are was a piece of shiit on me!!!
EngamerAzari's real number one fangirl <3Kor wrote:I wish Wyzack was still an admin.
certified good poster
- TheColdTurtle
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- WarbossLincoln
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
I like this idea. If it had a high chance of happening, maybe as high as traitor, it might also make sec not instantly murder you for having a red baloon. If half the time half the traitors are actually NT agents, but with no way to prove that, sometimes you might be able to convince sec to help you or let you go. Especially if there is very little collateral damage. If you only shot one guy and got caught you might be able to convince them. It would also give the same liberty to real traitors who try to trick sec. I have a feeling in the end the lust for valids will win but it would be some chance of adding a little low rp to our "low rp" server.
- Armhulen
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
I knowWyzack wrote:Yeah maybe add something in there about not revealing your mission to NT security or command staff to avoid further scandal
At least give em centcom access
- Qbopper
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
internal affairs sounds much cooler than double agents and I am 100% in favor of it
Limey wrote:its too late.
- cedarbridge
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 12:24 am
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
I always suspected that NT would be the sort of corporation to hire Pinkertons.Qbopper wrote:internal affairs sounds much cooler than double agents and I am 100% in favor of it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinkerton ... ve_agency)
- Armhulen
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
I want the lore to be that Nanotrasen is just as corrupt as the Syndicate, who are labelled as terrorists (with good reason)
like i'm so on board with Nanotrasen sending IAA to assassinate suspects
HOLY SHIT MAKE THEM MILITARY SYNTHS
like i'm so on board with Nanotrasen sending IAA to assassinate suspects
HOLY SHIT MAKE THEM MILITARY SYNTHS
- oranges
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
Okay calm down Armhulen
IAA vs Traitors sounds pretty sweet.
IAA vs Traitors sounds pretty sweet.
- imblyings
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
what if
what if IAA and traitors had information on assassination objectives of other traitors/IAA? or information on the protect objectives of other traitors/IAA? How would that pan out?
what if IAA and traitors had information on assassination objectives of other traitors/IAA? or information on the protect objectives of other traitors/IAA? How would that pan out?
The patched, dusty, trimmed, feathered mantle of evil +13.
- Remie Richards
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, NT have always been the bad guys.Armhulen wrote:I want the lore to be that Nanotrasen is just as corrupt as the Syndicate, who are labelled as terrorists (with good reason)
like i'm so on board with Nanotrasen sending IAA to assassinate suspects
HOLY SHIT MAKE THEM MILITARY SYNTHS
also yes IAA vs.traitors is the way to go, and they should definitely be synths.
私は完璧
- DemonFiren
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
And this doesn't grossly tilt the balance in favour of IA how?
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
Might aswell remove DA if this ends up happening.Kor wrote:Something like:
You are the Nanotrasen Internal Affairs Agent!
Your target is suspected of [crime], and you have been tasked with eliminating them by any means necessary to avoid a costly and embarrassing public trial. While you have a license to kill, unneeded property damage or loss of employee life will lead to your contract being terminated.
For the sake of plausible deniability, you have been equipped with an array of captured Syndicate weaponry. PDA blah blah blah uplink code
Finally, watch your back. [target] has friends in high places, and intel suggests someone may have taken out a contract of their own to protect them.
And then make it clear that it is OOC enforceable to not kill random people as Internal Affairs
- DemonFiren
- Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:15 pm
- Byond Username: DemonFiren
Re: Double Agent is godawful
"Make it clear"?
Do you mean "just ban the fuckers, they'll learn their lesson"?
Do you mean "just ban the fuckers, they'll learn their lesson"?
- Screemonster
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:23 pm
- Byond Username: Scree
Re: Double Agent is godawful
Saying "this is not a licence to grief" makes them sound like a side-antag rather than the main event, unless you want to bite the bullet and make "antags can do what they want" no longer a thing.
That said, giving each antag-type a little summary of what they're allowed to do would be pretty neat. "You are the traitor, your objectives are blahblah, your codewords are whatever, As a lone antagonist, you may do whatever you want short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals."
That said, giving each antag-type a little summary of what they're allowed to do would be pretty neat. "You are the traitor, your objectives are blahblah, your codewords are whatever, As a lone antagonist, you may do whatever you want short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals."
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- Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:26 pm
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
We can't make them synths or security would immediately start antag testing the entire crew with harm batons.
It would still be a thing for other antag types, doesn't hurt to test a stricter ruleset on a largely redundant mode. Worst case scenario we end up removing it which people want to do anyway.Saying "this is not a licence to grief" makes them sound like a side-antag rather than the main event, unless you want to bite the bullet and make "antags can do what they want" no longer a thing.
- Wyzack
- Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:32 pm
- Byond Username: Wyzack
Re: Double Agent is godawful
Guys stop theorycrafting you managed to turn it into a team antag mode
Arthur Thomson says, "Since there are no admins I would loging with another account and kill you"
Caleb Robinson laughs.
Arthur Thomson catches fire!
certified good poster
Caleb Robinson laughs.
Arthur Thomson catches fire!
tusterman11 wrote:Can you stop lying? I just asked you and you are was a piece of shiit on me!!!
EngamerAzari's real number one fangirl <3Kor wrote:I wish Wyzack was still an admin.
certified good poster
- Remie Richards
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
but wouldn't the IAA not be valid, since they're NT?Kor wrote:We can't make them synths or security would immediately start antag testing the entire crew with harm batons.
It would still be a thing for other antag types, doesn't hurt to test a stricter ruleset on a largely redundant mode. Worst case scenario we end up removing it which people want to do anyway.Saying "this is not a licence to grief" makes them sound like a side-antag rather than the main event, unless you want to bite the bullet and make "antags can do what they want" no longer a thing.
私は完璧
- Armhulen
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
I'm not shooting for that, I just think synths have so much potentialWyzack wrote:Guys stop theorycrafting you managed to turn it into a team antag mode
- Anonmare
- Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:59 pm
- Byond Username: Anonmare
Re: Double Agent is godawful
What if it was a mix of IA agents and Syndicate agents with identical gear and no way way of confirming which person is IA and which person is Syndicate? As well as limit what is purchasable (No bombs or beacons or mullagens).
Then, give them two objectives (plus the escape objective) that can be anything from the following (But you will get a protection objective in some form) - kill another agent, protect an agent, exchange documents, steal documents, prevent another agent from escaping with the "X" documents or ensure another agent escapes with the "X" documents.
A possible example of rolling IA Agent could be:
In case it isn't clear, an IA agent may have an objective to kill another IA agent and it may be possible that no "Syndicate" agents spawn at all. And to prevent IA agents from having an advantage in knowing it's Double Agent, the Syndicate version could be:
Then, give them two objectives (plus the escape objective) that can be anything from the following (But you will get a protection objective in some form) - kill another agent, protect an agent, exchange documents, steal documents, prevent another agent from escaping with the "X" documents or ensure another agent escapes with the "X" documents.
A possible example of rolling IA Agent could be:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
- Armhulen
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
They're not really double agents, are they now. Seems kinda meta to announce YOU ARE THE DOUBLE AGENT!
- Anonmare
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
Well, you could rename them to something more lore friendly like Undercover Agent but the idea is that they know it's a DA round so there isn't an unfair advantage to the IA agents.
- oranges
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Re: Double Agent is godawful
Just call them Syndicate Agents
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