Clockwork Cult (now off of rotation, suggestions go in this thread)

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:38 pm #348526

Bottom post of the previous page:

Oldman Robustin wrote:Qbopper a preset layout doesnt mean "exact same defense every round".

if you can't see how a preset layout wouldn't force defenders even further into a specific optimal playstyle then I don't know what to say

I mean fuck there's already a "preset layout" right now, its that layout is a vast empty space.

are you retarded or just pretending

I'm proposing preset walls so that the defenders can make strategically coherent decisions like where to drop wardens, how to use the structures, where to use their limited number of doors, extra walls, etc.

if the walls are all preset the meta will become "place shit here and if you don't you're hindering the team", this happens in every game ever, not just ss13

Arianya there's absolutely nothing about our combat system that prevents a slow, rolling battle from taking place.

it's pretty absurd how quickly people move in this game, combat is lightning fast

If we want to encourage an aggressive defense I would highly recommend you give the defenders a machine that will teleport them to safety when they get crit, it would put them in "stasis" for healing for ~30 seconds and then release them at the base for another chance. The machine would only be able to trigger 2 or 3 times per cultist.

this is an interesting idea

If we're going to design this defense around the cultists being vastly outnumbered then giving them a 2nd or 3rd chance solves two problems:

1) Nobody wants to defend aggressively and die early

2) There aren't enough defenders to halt the push of a crew force that's 5x their size

Either way we NEED to make the cultists construct a coherent defensive line or else every fucking game is going to be giant wall followed by empty space. I haven't have a single memorable fight on Reebe, literally they all blur together.

Oldman Robustin · Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:50 pm

A preset defense will inevitably result in a "meta" forming around perceived optimal placement but there would be enough variation that it wouldn't be the same every time. Giving the cultists more variety in their structures would also help.

Giving the cultists a massive open area creates the same result. People quickly realized that scarabs couldn't assemble any defense that would be "manned" by the cult. Opaque dense turf made it impossible for the defenders to even navigate their own defenses and see where the crew is pushing, non-opaque dense turf (tables, windows) just gave the crew's 50 laser guns an easy target.

The meta has already formed around "build a giant fucking annoying wall to buy the cult a couple minutes and then pray you converted enough people or stole enough weapons to hold the line (hint: no) when the crew breaks through and then you are basically in "rage cage" mode.

Even letting the cultists "respawn" wouldn't be enough to create an "active" defense because even creating a fortified "hallway" full of marauders and cultists and runes and structures just means they don't see the mech/hulk/engineer/etc. punch through all their walls and flank them all. If you buff walls or nerf wall destroyers then it just means the cultists don't want to create a hallway in the first place and go back to wallspamming.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:34 pm #348570

I should probably clarify that obviously a meta will develop if you give the cult an empty room to build in

that being said I don't think we're ever going to agree on this so i'll just drop it

onleavedontatme · Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:46 am

I finally saw a setup that wasn't just a single wall along spawn followed by an empty space of wardens

The doors on the far right came in handy for sending marauders to hassle the crew while they were trying to deal with the wardens

Mech got trashed by a pulse shotgun, but the defenses more or less held and the clock cult won

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:18 pm #348876

That's the kind of defenses I like seeing, as it doesn't favor either side. I imagine that with fifty or so repeats of the same battle it could go differently either way depending on coordination, who attacks who, and which side can keep it together. There's no easy fix to making bad servants not build a huge 5-wide wall across Reebe and then get pancaked the second it goes down, but when the team works together and builds like this they're a formidable force.

Oldman Robustin · Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:09 pm

Xhuis the fix is to not have your base defense style be decided by bored ghosts.

Dense object spam is not fun to fight against or to use on defense. Give them a preset layout that doesn't force a single defense style, hell give them a series of templates to choose from, walls can be buffed but wall construction would be limited, then make the defensive strategy more about structure placement, give the cult more structure/weapon diversity.

This mode cannot ever be a success if the assault on Reebe is primarily MAN v. DENSE OBJECTS.

ShadowDimentio · Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:31 pm

Best thing to do would be to turn the mode into No Heroes Allowed! lite.

Clockcucks get a set duration of time to carve a labyrinth out of a giant chunk of brass and fill it with traps and other such devilry, and have to place [important clockcuck thing] at the most secure spot of their choosing THAT HAS AT LEAST ONE PATH LEADING BACK TO THE START UNHINDERED BY DENSE OBJECTS.

When the alarm sounds the walls turn indestructible and crew start pouring out of the start and have to navigate the labyrinth, not dying to traps and trying to find the [clockcuck thing] based on vague directional sounds. If they manage to get there, they have to pick it up and take it all the way back to the start, while an alarm alerts the clockcucks that their [thing] just got stolen and to get it back before they escape. If they do, the clockcucks can't move it back but then have to defend it where it dropped until they either lose it again or they win.

Bam problem solved, no more chucklefucks just rushing wallsmashing hulks or mechs, you gotta actually wander the labyrinth.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:46 pm #349037

Oldman Robustin wrote:This mode cannot ever be a success if the assault on Reebe is primarily MAN v. DENSE OBJECTS.

I appreciate the concern, but player feedback and general reception to the mode indicates that it already is as a success. There are multiple ways to do the mode, and there is no right or wrong way; only alternate ones. If time goes by and the current iteration begins to glow tiring for players, then I will admit that you're right and take a new path, but right now this is more than enough.

ShadowDimentio wrote:snip

That's actually an interesting idea. I don't know how well it would translate in-game, but it's much more feasible and probably more fun than LOL LANES.

ShadowDimentio · Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:16 pm

Xhuis wrote:That's actually an interesting idea. I don't know how well it would translate in-game, but it's much more feasible and probably more fun than LOL LANES.

Quadruple the size of the clockcuck base. Fill it with clock walls. Randomly place a 5/5 starting point for both the clockcucks and crew to start from, along with the artifact thing the crew have to get and the cucks have to defend. Give every cuck a proselytizer for smashing the walls. The rest is pretty much the same, except it's now required there be a path directly to the end, and hulks can't just smash everything in the way to the end because the walls turn indestructible.

Oldman Robustin · Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:00 pm

Xhuis wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:This mode cannot ever be a success if the assault on Reebe is primarily MAN v. DENSE OBJECTS.
I appreciate the concern, but player feedback and general reception to the mode indicates that it already is as a success.

The fact you sincerely believe that is disturbing. You've had 23 connections in the last 30 days, I don't know where you're getting your second-hand information from but first-hand I've only seen an unfinished mode that desperately needs attention. Every day this sounds more like it's going to end up as "Joan steps in to actually finish Clock Cult 2.0".

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:26 pm #349076

Oldman Robustin wrote:
Xhuis wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:This mode cannot ever be a success if the assault on Reebe is primarily MAN v. DENSE OBJECTS.
I appreciate the concern, but player feedback and general reception to the mode indicates that it already is as a success.
The fact you sincerely believe that is disturbing. You've had 23 connections in the last 30 days, I don't know where you're getting your second-hand information from but first-hand I've only seen an unfinished mode that desperately needs attention. Every day this sounds more like it's going to end up as "Joan steps in to actually finish Clock Cult 2.0".

I don't know if you were absent for it, but the rework happened because Joan brought the mode to a staggeringly terrible spot and it was either it be reworked or it be removed. I haven't played recently, no, as I haven't enjoyed playing and I don't want to burn myself out. I rely on what I hear from players to guide my decisions, and what I hear is mostly positive whenever I run polls in the servers or just ask around in other areas. Like I've said, I'll own up to being prideful and not listening to your word enough if it proves to be the case, but right now I believe the mode to be in a good spot. People have come to me explicitly to tell me the mode is fun, which is much different than the old clockcult where people would regularly yell at me and Joan because the mode was broken and being broken further day after day.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:40 am #349159

robustin if you think people prefer old clockcult to this then you're laughably deluded

Not-Dorsidarf · Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:55 pm

>"Community feedback that's been submitted me me indicates people prefer this version"

>"Fuck you you dont even play every single day your community feedback is worthless here let me give you my personal anecdote instead"

LifeReign · Post by **LifeReign** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:52 pm #349326

For what it's worth, I hate conversion modes with the blazing fury of a thousand suns and even I think that new cuck cult is a step in a good direction. If there was a better way for the crew to interact with the cult before the portals open, the mode would be pretty great, actually. It starts off with slowly increasing tensions over the course of ~45 minutes as (theoretically) both the crew and cult increase in strength, and culminates in a giant clusterfuck of a fight. No more issues where one or two people manage to find the Ark's location on their own, now we regularly see decently sized groups duke it out. It might need some rebalancing as people figure out the mode better, but for now it's in a decent spot.

calzilla1 · Post by **calzilla1** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:34 pm #349340

Really good mode, but needs a bit more in the way of defence mechanisms

Durkel · Post by **Durkel** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:08 pm #349367

Watched a clock cultist abduct someone and take them to reebe without being cuffed. He proceeded to single handily destroy the entire cult and the ark causing an abrupt round end.

10/10.

Never underestimate the power of a flash and a welding tool.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:40 pm #349373

Deserved tbh

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:05 am #349377

the entire cult being two people though

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:02 am #349395

I saw a mime trump an entire cult with a welding tool once.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:01 am #349499

I managed to do some damage with a discarded ratvarian welding tool and deconning the front line defences before the crew came.

Apparently the ratvarian tools are completely indiscriminate and will let anyone use them.

Post by **Cobby** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:35 am #349679

cough cough http://bloons.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Towers unironically

Post by **Armhulen** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:55 am #349684

ExcessiveJMadison wrote:cough cough http://bloons.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Towers unironically

that's what i've been saying (and people have been ignoring) since this thread was created, we have one autoaim turret for defense and they have a full station raiding setup like they're ops or some shit. We gotta do this and remove the dumber parts of the gamemode like clockwork armor, marauders, etc

Post by **Arianya** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:59 am #349793

I half wonder if a good answer to the "crew can't do anything to clockcult before the Ark activates" thing is to implement something like being able to holy water areas to stop the cult from teleporting in there for 15 minutes/30 minutes/indefinitely, so that sec/crew have something constructive to do that isn't "arrest everyone and shove water and an implant into them"

Might be a bit broken with warcult though.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:19 pm #349811

Armhulen wrote:
ExcessiveJMadison wrote:cough cough http://bloons.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Towers unironically
that's what i've been saying (and people have been ignoring) since this thread was created, we have one autoaim turret for defense and they have a full station raiding setup like they're ops or some shit. We gotta do this and remove the dumber parts of the gamemode like clockwork armor, marauders, etc

would make conversion more interesting as well since you won't have cult crutches on the station

Oldman Robustin · Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:19 pm

Qbopper wrote:robustin if you think people prefer old clockcult to this then you're laughably deluded

Old clockcult got neutered near the end and I couldn't stand it. Joan took the criticism that lategame CC was unbeatable (marauders on every cultist, anima fragments being spammed, CC territory being almost impossible to assault because of both charging you while you have to try and push into a room full of stun runes and wardens) and just removed their lategame powers. The result was you have the current clock cult, but on station.

Even then old CC always had its share of major problems too.

People, myself included, love the new IDEA, but the execution is pretty awful. Too many people are conflating idea with execution. Including the current poll we have up.

Gang War was the same way. Support for keeping it in rotation hovered at 70% across multiple polls. Then I stopped working on it for ~3 months and support dropped to <50% and it was removed.

Exact same story here. 99% of our players haven't read this thread and have no idea where this mode is heading. Many people, myself included, assumed that Xhuis would seem the litany of problems and work to address them.

When Xhuis is simultaneously content with its current state AND preventing others from changing it, then it's a whole different ballgame.

Again, I wouldn't be posting in this thread if I didn't like the idea. If I hated it, I'd give it the HoG treatment where I just let it die because the core gameplay was fundamentally bad. Keep in mind the original Clockcult opened with probably some of the highest support I've ever seen for a new mode. People fucking loved that shit because it had tons of polished new icons, cool effects, and tons of content to explore - it took months for people to realize it wasn't just a "learning issue" but that the mode had a lot of big problems. Just because Joan failed to get it to a good place (and she did make a lot of improvements), just somehow mean your original version was superior. A lot of it was people didn't run into the later-stage CC bullshit of snowbally mechanics because they couldn't access those mechanics in the first place because navigating several text lists in the old UI and a separation of spells from descriptors made competent use of later-stage CC magic all but impossible for the average player.

This is literally the same story, cool new idea, major flaws in execution, if Xhuis doesn't address the flaws then it's just going to be someone else.

Nabski · Post by **Nabski** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:44 pm #349838

I took a bunch of golem mutation pills and got a clockwork golem. Super fast, able to wear clothing, and immune to shocks. Yay!

Post by **Armhulen** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:45 pm #349840

running around as full speed armored golems punching people to death, uuuuuum just my special gamemode race sweetie!

calzilla1 · Post by **calzilla1** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:51 pm #349842

Nabski wrote:I took a bunch of golem mutation pills and got a clockwork golem. Super fast, able to wear clothing, and immune to shocks. Yay!

How fast did you het valided to dead?

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:57 pm #349847

You can be a clockwork golem via Pride's Mirror as well.

Nobody really batted an eye at me

Nabski · Post by **Nabski** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:00 pm #349850

calzilla1 wrote:
Nabski wrote:I took a bunch of golem mutation pills and got a clockwork golem. Super fast, able to wear clothing, and immune to shocks. Yay!
How fast did you het valided to dead?

You can't get valided if you git gud. (About 5 minutes later when I tried to print off two bags of holding after already being kicked out of science four times).

It was still nice to have fast movement and pants, making it clearly the "best" result from the golem mutation pool.

onleavedontatme · Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:07 pm

Is there a strategy I'm unaware of for dealing with marauders? Was playing against clock cult and any time a cultist got hurt the 400hp unstunnable unslowable guy would run up and pull him away behind further sets of walls.

I see them die when hulks or bombs cheese all the defenses and its just a wide open melee zone but I'm not sure how to deal with four of them (+ respawns) being ambulances.

(I guess the best counter of all would have been to sign up 40 minutes earlier and stop the cultists from trashing genetics and RnD)

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:09 pm #349906

Xhuis is stopping any changes

I'm not stopping changes at all. If you've read what I said before, if someone wants to make a change, I generally won't shout for the PR to get closed and I'll at least request it be testmerged to see how it plays out. You made two clockcult PRs, and neither of which got this apparent insta-close treatment that has never existed. Just because I made the gamemode in its current state does not make me its sole authority, and if you think that I'm going to halt every single change that gets made that isn't my own then you're delusional. I'm one person, but I'm not flawless and I'm not going to try to tell myself I'm a pinnacle of game design just because I disagree with your ideas.

Clockgolems

If I had to guess, this comes from war clockgolems not being blacklisted, and it's an easy fix. For normal clockgolems, their chief drawback comes from that they leave no corpse or way to clone them behind on death and die permanently.

Bad execution

I'm getting tired of repeating myself over and over, but I don't think the execution is problematic at all. If I understood your claim, you are directly telling the players voting in favor of the new clockcult that they're wrong. I think people have their own opinions and are entitled to them, and just because you think the mode is in a bad spot doesn't mean that you're factually correct. Name a single gamemode that doesn't have design issues and I'll name a liar. You cite a great deal of things that I don't see as huge of issues as you're portraying them as, and while I'll acknowledge that I haven't played or observed much due to burnout, I still keep in touch with people and it's only you, Armhulen, and a few others that cite the mode is unfun to play, whereas everyone else I ask is either indifferent or supportive. Like I've said again and again, any issues that crop up can be addressed by me or anyone else who feels like helping instead of whining, and I've been making small patches to nudge the balance in the right direction constantly.

Towers

Just because you have a suggestion doesn't mean it invalidates the rest of the gamemode. The current servant gameplay is a hybrid of defenses and manpower; both are necessary to make an effective defense (perhaps a bit moreso manpower). That's one style of execution, and tower defense is another, whereupon it focuses heavily on the defenses side. This is easy to do and I could easily do it, but I like where the mode is now. I'd be willing to change things up, but I don't really see a reason to except to keep things fresh. Neither execution is superior, and we already have tower defense gameplay in the form of blob.

Marauders

I've heard a lot of reasonable complaints about these, so I'm currently working on a patch for them. Being below 40% health will slow them down a great deal, and I'm planning to replace their deflection RNG with a fixed "shield health" that regenerates after every 10 seconds without taking a projectile hit. That health starts at 3 (meaning you can take three projectiles) and the shield becomes nonfunctional once it strikes zero. That's just my idea, though.

If you think the gamemode is in a bad spot, then do something about it. Don't just complain on the forums about its problems, because that accomplishes nothing. Trying to shove the same thing down my throat and yelling at me that it's a problem when I don't see it as such isn't going to change the eighth, ninth, or hundredth time you do it.

Nabski · Post by **Nabski** » Fri Oct 27, 2017 1:18 pm #351249

I miss having a reason to convert the station to brass. I suppose you can still to cut off access and create slightly healing tiles now.

Is it possible to have something like for every 10 CV you have, 1 second is removed off the activation timer, capping out at 2 minutes for balance reasons. I figure this really only realistically happen when 95% of the crew is already converted.

Something Something you've weakened the breach between dimensions.

On the other hand this might be unneeded complexity and a win-more mechanic so don't do it.

Qbopper · Post by **Qbopper** » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:03 pm #351268

Nabski wrote:I miss having a reason to convert the station to brass. I suppose you can still to cut off access and create slightly healing tiles now.

Is it possible to have something like for every 10 CV you have, 1 second is removed off the activation timer, capping out at 2 minutes for balance reasons. I figure this really only realistically happen when 95% of the crew is already converted.

Something Something you've weakened the breach between dimensions.

On the other hand this might be unneeded complexity and a win-more mechanic so don't do it.

off the top of my head that doesn't SEEM terrible, you're risking early detection and cultists but you get something out of it which is a neat tradeoff

Nabski · Post by **Nabski** » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:14 pm #351270

If I completely thought it was terrible I wouldn't have said it. It's just another possible mechanic in a game mode that already has more going on than almost any other.

I had the same thought about bloodcult; it would be cool to have structures gain a 4th option only if the building is made in the area where you must summon. A way to gate that bastard sword without having to time lock it. BUT the mode's function fine without adding that.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Fri Oct 27, 2017 5:03 pm #351319

That's actually quite a neat thought! I'll have to give some consideration how I could implement it in a polished way.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:41 am #351519

make walls destructible by melee or ranged (but heavily nerfed to prevent people from just lasering from the safety of the spawn fields with chargers) damage, nerf wall mech damage, nerf bombs, nerf mechs.
make it viable to kill a clockcult by means other than "have mech/bomb or lose".

Oldman Robustin · Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:05 pm

I got to win as a lowpop clock cult yesterday, I learned two things:

1) The visor was absolutely fucking garbage with a half-second stun.

2) The stun trap stun is only 4 seconds, the same as slipping on goddamn water, not even enough time to reliably follow up with a kindle stun.

I've made a PR to buff both but I have some other ideas I'd like to try in the future beyond just buffing stuns. I really think the cultists need a (long CD) forcewall type mechanic. With everything requiring a channel for the cultists, as soon as someone with anything resembling a weapon starts chasing you, it's pretty much GG since you have no way to fight back. This makes the cultists extremely conversative because they only have ambush tools and nothing that actually helps them win a fight until they unlock the spear.

A forcewall would give them a limited escape tool without making them combat monsters or uncatchable douchebags.

Dagdammit · Post by **Dagdammit** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:44 am #352459

First off: I literally haven't even played the mode. If any/all of the following ain't useful just ignore it.

Angles for balancing wallspam/rewarding approaches that take a little more thought:

No wall can have more than 3 walls in the 8 adjacent tiles. (As soon as any wall has 3 such adjacent walls, it highlights the other 5 so cultists know walls can't successfully be built there)
Escalating wall costs based on number of existing walls (either within small radius or just tiny-but-steady escalation based on total wall amount)
Instead of escalating wall costs, diminishing wall durability. Could be fun if this durability debuff is altered both ways in real time, i.e. the more cult walls the crew smashes the tougher the remaining walls get.
Cult defensive machines/turrets/etc. that need wires, wires leading towards generators (presumably built towards back) that can't go under walls. (They can be wires resprited & reflavored as a chain of gears or beams of light if that's thematically necessary.)
Each time a wall is demolished, all adjacent walls get weaker.
Each time a wall is demolished, it has a chance of dropping loot that benefits invaders. Healing sparks or something idfk
Straight up limit of X walls that can be built (at least simultaneously)
Build space/lower sections thereof start with an arrangement of tile types, varying from round to round (premade layouts or some form of procedural generation) that support/incentivize different forms of construction. Some weapons can only be built on red tiles, a straight line of walls connecting two green tiles is invincible, orange tiles are lemon scented and piranhas hate lemons, etc. (this one would need more details worked out obv.)

Misc thoughts:

Doors that look like regular walls to non-clock-cult, good for ambushes and maze fighting?
One alternative to automated turrets: Defensive emplacements that you have to man? So behind the machine gun turret-equivalent is a clock cultist attackers can potentially flank and kill.
Another defensive emplacement: Clock cult mortars? Clock cult operator can shift view+aiming reticle a full screen or so from char's position, AoE damage, visual warning with enough time delay that invaders can reliably escape if not hemmed in/stunned.
What about emitters? Straight up reskinned emitters as a clock cult defensive emplacement, including part where they can be toggled off and on.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:03 pm #352564

Wallspam isn't much of a problem since a mech/tools/RCD/hulk/what-have-you can easily smash them down. I do like the idea of them dropping misc "pickups", though.

Manned defenses, mortars, and emitters have all been proposed to be and all sound varying degrees of good. I'm considering replacing ocular wardens with emitters since Armhulen has been nagging me to do that.

onleavedontatme · Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:15 pm

Meta is settling to be marauder spam in both phases. Just warp somewhere hidden on station and dump out three of them and let them wreck RnD/medbay/anyone unfortunate to come near them.

Very difficult to fight especially with their highspeed/passing through mobs/blocking and once you finally kill one they just spawn another.

Also the servants can attack siege spawn area by throwing in bombs/canisters etc.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:38 pm #352604

Marauders are always addressable, and I'll give them another balancing pass.

Assaulting the spawn area can only be prevented in so many ways, but I can take a look.

onleavedontatme · Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:33 pm

Xhuis wrote:
Assaulting the spawn area can only be prevented in so many ways, but I can take a look.

I think you're either going to have to forcibly move all cultists back to rebee (and keep them there) before the portals spawn, or only let non cultist mobs (not objects) use the portals (and maybe bring whatever they are pulling with them).

Post by **Armhulen** » Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:56 pm #352646

or just remove them please

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Nov 05, 2017 6:58 pm #354079

I've made another balancing pass to marauders, it's currently up on GitHub here. If it doesn't end up working out, they're likely on the chopping block.

They're now dense and function like they're on harm intent
Each marauder summoned within the last 20 seconds increases recital time by five seconds; this timer resets each time it's invoked, so there has to be 20 seconds with no marauders for it to begin going back down
They no longer get a health bonus from war

Oldman Robustin · Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:46 pm

The dense/intent change was long overdue but the core problems with the mode remain.

Reebe defense is still really fucking bad. Either your scarab knows the trick to dispense/recycle brass, or it doesn't and you are burning 1,000,000w of power on fucking wallspam. A single wall costing 10 marauders/100 kindles of power remains a baffling decision.

CC needs to have its teleportation versatility reigned in, but the robustness of its cultists expanded. CC remains an annoying enemy because aside from AI core or Armory they can teleport ANYWHERE with no signs of intrusion, sabotage becomes trivial for an experienced player - but cultists are also cornered into this playstyle because they are pretty garbage otherwise. Their disguises remain half-assed (they NEED options for PDAs, other job positions) and they are incredibly helpless against ordinary crew. Virtually any crewmember will beat you 1v1 if they are reasonably robust and they spot you first before you unlock Tier 2. This leads to a majority of cultists simply resorting to indirect warfare because all it takes is one bored assistant spotting your lack of a PDA, among other tells, to chase you down and kill you since, until tier 2, your only active combat ability is disarm spam and running.

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:05 pm #355379

An object that merely looks like a PDA will deal with the metagaming I think.

As an experiment, I rushed toolbelt and insulated gloves one round, put my PDA in my pocket and had my ID on my chest and I got attacked by assistants and random searched by security even though I hadn't actually done anything besides that.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:19 pm #355432

Giving them a PDA is very easy, I can probably do that in a few minutes. There are some obvious tells like the work boots that I'd like to address, but in the end a lot of how well a servant can stay hidden depends on them; I've seen a lot of people go to the station without even changing their jumpsuit.

onleavedontatme · Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:56 pm

Robustin is right

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:41 pm #355718

I agree with him on the points about disguise, and to a degree the ones about base defense. I don't agree with his proposed solutions of lanes and the like, but I'll admit that there are some kinks with what's there already that could very well stand some ironing out. I'm currently burnt out on clockcult, but I'll give some thought on how to improve those except for the obvious disguise stuff, where it's already quite clear what to patch up.

Post by **Armhulen** » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:15 pm #355749

Xhuis wrote:I agree with him on the points about disguise, and to a degree the ones about base defense. I don't agree with his proposed solutions of lanes and the like, but I'll admit that there are some kinks with what's there already that could very well stand some ironing out. I'm currently burnt out on clockcult, but I'll give some thought on how to improve those except for the obvious disguise stuff, where it's already quite clear what to patch up.

it's easy, watch this.