Wizard Scaling
- Yakumo_Chen
- Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2015 10:08 pm
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Wizard Scaling
Of all the rounds that have been in SS13 for most of its history, there's almost nothing as polarizing as Wizard. An antag that is insanely strong with the right spellset, or at worst a terrible meme or someone who fireballs themselves 2 minutes into the round and ends it.
However, it's important to realize that unlike every other antag mode in the game, no matter how many crew there are, there will always be one wizard with 10 spell points.
This creates an incredibly strange scenario where the wizard is insanely powerful in lowpop rounds, which often net a lot of complaints, but comparatively weak when there's 70 players, which often leads to extremely short or boring rounds.
Wizard really does need some scaling to make it more interesting in higher population and not a complete steamroll when there's only 20 or so crew to fight it. either more wizards or more spells (perhaps an alternative in a free apprentice contract with every 20 or so extra players), even blob would get two overminds with a high enough population to balance out the fact that a single one was insanely easy to kill with 20 assistants rushing it with welders.
However, it's important to realize that unlike every other antag mode in the game, no matter how many crew there are, there will always be one wizard with 10 spell points.
This creates an incredibly strange scenario where the wizard is insanely powerful in lowpop rounds, which often net a lot of complaints, but comparatively weak when there's 70 players, which often leads to extremely short or boring rounds.
Wizard really does need some scaling to make it more interesting in higher population and not a complete steamroll when there's only 20 or so crew to fight it. either more wizards or more spells (perhaps an alternative in a free apprentice contract with every 20 or so extra players), even blob would get two overminds with a high enough population to balance out the fact that a single one was insanely easy to kill with 20 assistants rushing it with welders.
- Cobby
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- Qbmax32
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Re: Wizard Scaling
That’s because wizards only murderbone. You can get by with 10 spellpoints on high pop if you stealth wizard or actually do your objectives
- BeeSting12
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Re: Wizard Scaling
>cant murderbone with 10 spell points
literally git gud
literally git gud
- Qbmax32
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- PKPenguin321
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Re: Wizard Scaling
>he's bad at wizard
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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- kevinz000
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Re: Wizard Scaling
how do you ever lose wizard?
Local catgirl scratching post - Shezza
Usually seen as Skylar Lineman/Mekhi Anderson.
Commissions way too much art...
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7&p=239075 - IN GAME ADMINISTRATOR
Usually seen as Skylar Lineman/Mekhi Anderson.
Commissions way too much art...
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7&p=239075 - IN GAME ADMINISTRATOR
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- CPTANT
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Re: Wizard Scaling
You are never going to catch a competent wizard with 10 spellpoints no matter what the population.
Timberpoes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Wizard Scaling
Thinking summon guns and summon magic will be fun for you.kevinz000 wrote:how do you ever lose wizard?
- kevinz000
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Re: Wizard Scaling
it is you just have to react even faster and take blink.Incomptinence wrote:Thinking summon guns and summon magic will be fun for you.kevinz000 wrote:how do you ever lose wizard?
Local catgirl scratching post - Shezza
Usually seen as Skylar Lineman/Mekhi Anderson.
Commissions way too much art...
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7&p=239075 - IN GAME ADMINISTRATOR
Usually seen as Skylar Lineman/Mekhi Anderson.
Commissions way too much art...
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 7&p=239075 - IN GAME ADMINISTRATOR
NSFW:
- Deitus
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Re: Wizard Scaling
>not making summon guns, summon magic, and slaughter/laughter demon purchases for Max chaos/amount of people having fun
smdhtbqh
smdhtbqh
- calzilla1
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Re: Wizard Scaling
Not just spending all in summon major guns and go single man operatorDeitus wrote:>not making summon guns, summon magic, and slaughter/laughter demon purchases for Max chaos/amount of people having fun
smdhtbqh
Life is too short for anything meaningful and too long for anything memeingful
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Quality debate brought to you by ColonicAcid wrote:imagine having this little empathy
do you have autism bud? does your brain not see these people as humans? are they just a faceless statistic to you?
- Yakumo_Chen
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Re: Wizard Scaling
Boring. The whole point of wizard is to create as much chaos as possible. You're the only antag and the roundtype revolves around you, why wouldn't you do this?That’s because wizards only murderbone. You can get by with 10 spellpoints on high pop if you stealth wizard or actually do your objectives
Absolutely not true. Wizards excel at 1v1 combat, against groups of people they quickly get swarmed. Spell cooldowns are brutal, especially if you're using expensive spells like jaunt or disintegrate, and you can only run away so far with everything but teleport (which makes you yell your distination).You are never going to catch a competent wizard with 10 spellpoints no matter what the population.
With enough crew any wizard is likely to get swarmed.
You are never going to catch a competent wizard with 10 spellpoints no matter what the population.
If this is objectively the case then it's going to be overpowered for lowpop. There is absolutely no way a solo antag can possibly be balanced through any population with the exact same stats. It doesn't work for blob, it doesn't work for team antags or traitors. It's definitely not balanced when there's 70-90 (!!) crew or more, all of whom are willing to run at you by lemmings if it means at least a few of them get a toolbox in and drop half your health before you can jaunt away.10 has been plenty for highpop, wtffff
kevin, wizards are solo antags that can't equip armor or EVA protection without sacrificing speed or spellcasting ability or spellpoints to have one or the other. While at best any stun can be mitigated by stalling tactics (blink, jaunt that doesn't move you, timestop, counter-stuns), you can still craft plenty of one-hit-kills for wizards like explosive lances or syringe guns. Wizards who don't raid med storage on their first teleport also tend to get worn down eventually because they generally can't self-heal. They're walking glass cannons.how do you ever lose wizard?
- Cobby
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Re: Wizard Scaling
Right I have no issue with lowering it based on pop, but never should it be more than 10 imo.
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- Not-Dorsidarf
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Re: Wizard Scaling
Wizards have the highest mobility of any antag in the game with the exception of revenants, who are incorporeal 90% of the time. Blink + Ethereal Jaunt makes you basically impossible to catch unless you fuck up, especially if you also took magic missile or another "back the fuck off muggles" spell
kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please.
- Rustledjimm
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Re: Wizard Scaling
The biggest weakness I see with the wizard personally is very strong lack of any kind of healing bar the staff/wand of healing. I believe there should be a small healing spell whether it's one that heals slowly overtime or one that heals quickly with a very long cooldown.
So uhh, I'm an admin. Please leave feedback! Oops took me a while to strike that through.
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- Not-Dorsidarf
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Re: Wizard Scaling
What wizard worth his salt doesnt pick up a pair of medkits from medbay storage though
kieth4 wrote: infrequently shitting yourself is fine imo
There is a lot of very bizarre nonsense being talked on this forum. I shall now remain silent and logoff until my points are vindicated.
Player who complainted over being killed for looting cap office wrote: ↑Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am Hey there, I'm Virescent, the super evil person who made the stupid appeal and didn't think it through enough. Just came here to say: screech, retards. Screech and writhe like the worms you are. Your pathetic little cries will keep echoing around for a while before quietting down. There is one great outcome from this: I rised up the blood pressure of some of you shitheads and lowered your lifespan. I'm honestly tempted to do this more often just to see you screech and writhe more, but that wouldn't be cool of me. So come on haters, show me some more of your high blood pressure please.
- Rustledjimm
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Re: Wizard Scaling
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:What wizard worth his salt doesnt pick up a pair of medkits from medbay storage though
And that's an issue. Why is it a requirement to do so? Shouldn't have to be, there should be a choice of a healing spell imo.
Why is it seen as good game design if to be good you have to do this one certain thing?
So uhh, I'm an admin. Please leave feedback! Oops took me a while to strike that through.
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Re: Wizard Scaling
If healing is such an issue then take the wand belt and the recharge wand spell.
Bam! You get a staff of healing in a compact form.
Bam! You get a staff of healing in a compact form.
- Cobby
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Re: Wizard Scaling
Because those eventually run out which means he has to go back to medbay, chemistry, or science. With a spell they do not.Rustledjimm wrote:Not-Dorsidarf wrote:What wizard worth his salt doesnt pick up a pair of medkits from medbay storage though
And that's an issue. Why is it a requirement to do so? Shouldn't have to be, there should be a choice of a healing spell imo.
Why is it seen as good game design if to be good you have to do this one certain thing?
Also as people said, there is a healing item available under the wand pack
Voted best trap in /tg/ 2014-current
- Steelpoint
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Re: Wizard Scaling
I would not mind seeing some kind of spell point scaling for low pop Wizard.
But 10 spell points is more than enough for a Wiz even on high pop.
Wizards are the single most destructive, capable and survivable antagonist in the game. Personally I feel most Wizards die to either them making a mistake, or intentionally disadvantaging themselves in some way.
But 10 spell points is more than enough for a Wiz even on high pop.
Wizards are the single most destructive, capable and survivable antagonist in the game. Personally I feel most Wizards die to either them making a mistake, or intentionally disadvantaging themselves in some way.
- Iatots
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Re: Wizard Scaling
Time to ask atlanta ned for a spell tracker tool. See what spells are associated with victories, and how often they are bought.
- Rustledjimm
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Re: Wizard Scaling
ExcessiveJMadison wrote:
Because those eventually run out which means he has to go back to medbay, chemistry, or science. With a spell they do not.
Also as people said, there is a healing item available under the wand pack
I feel that restricts the wizards choices and there should be a third option of having a balanced heal spell. It would obviously have to be balanced with either a long cooldown or by being very weak. I'm not really sensing any argument against a spell existing other than 'The wizard can do this instead' which boils down to requiring to show up in Medbay and stealing equipment or taking a wand belt which has a lot of extras you might not really want when all you want is some healing.
This isn't something I'm really going to push strongly for, it's just something that I think would be a nice option for the Wiznerd.
So uhh, I'm an admin. Please leave feedback! Oops took me a while to strike that through.
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Re: Wizard Scaling
A healing spell likely should require the Wizard to remain stationary for a very extended period, and the spell should have a long cool down.
- Grazyn
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Re: Wizard Scaling
Why would a wizard have access to healing spells? Healing is divine magic, they can only use arcane magic.
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Re: Wizard Scaling
Healing spells would just be a newbie trap, since any wizard worth their salt can just steal good heals from the station and take spells that not only provide them mobility but often get them away from damage in the first place
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
Spoiler:
- obscolene
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Re: Wizard Scaling
>take fireball, magic missile, ei nath, jaunt and time stop
>teleport to medbay storage and take one of each medkit at roundstart
>be literally unkillable no matter the population
what seems to be the issue
>teleport to medbay storage and take one of each medkit at roundstart
>be literally unkillable no matter the population
what seems to be the issue
[center]sc#4622 | everybodygangstauntilnig.ga (UPDATED FREQUENTLY)[/center]
[03:46:59]EMOTE: The Dreamweaver/(Steve Leaf) : <b>Steve Leaf</b> starts jacking lizard dick. (129,128,2)
[03:47:33]SAY: Steve Leaf/The Dreamweaver : OH FUCK IM CHOAKING (129,128,2)
[03:46:59]EMOTE: The Dreamweaver/(Steve Leaf) : <b>Steve Leaf</b> starts jacking lizard dick. (129,128,2)
[03:47:33]SAY: Steve Leaf/The Dreamweaver : OH FUCK IM CHOAKING (129,128,2)
Spoiler:
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Re: Wizard Scaling
Issue is pitting one player with anywhere between 2 weeks to 5 years experience vs anywhere from 30 to 80 other players who also have between 2 weeks and five years experience and thinking you can do anything balance wise to the spells to get consistency out of that
- BeeSting12
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Re: Wizard Scaling
Nobody goes for greentext on wizard though. They just go for either max kill counts or a friendly gimmick.Iatots wrote:Time to ask atlanta ned for a spell tracker tool. See what spells are associated with victories, and how often they are bought.
- D&B
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Re: Wizard Scaling
Wizard as it stands right now it's more dependant on how experienced the person is rather than how many points or pop there are.
An experienced player can kill the entire station with nothing but three spells or stupid gimmicks while newbies will die rather quickly no matter how much you outfit them or arm them.
An experienced player can kill the entire station with nothing but three spells or stupid gimmicks while newbies will die rather quickly no matter how much you outfit them or arm them.
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Re: Wizard Scaling
The only solution to push over wizards screwing the balance is more wizard experience.
Which would require an absurdly high round percentage to develop due to the single slotted nature.
Wiz scaling would probably just lead to powergaming vets taking even more brutalist bare bones builds and boring/infuriating people more.
What might be an interesting idea would be a *RARE* side antag or low pop variant journeyman wizard with a bit less spell points but here is the big twist: spent randomly on the regular menu excluding summon guns and magic because that would basically be an involuntary announcement.
Helping newbies actually learn something instead of trying to do the ""fun"" thing and summon guns/magic before they start. Force veterans to try and bend some of the less used spells and items to achieve success.
Which would require an absurdly high round percentage to develop due to the single slotted nature.
Wiz scaling would probably just lead to powergaming vets taking even more brutalist bare bones builds and boring/infuriating people more.
What might be an interesting idea would be a *RARE* side antag or low pop variant journeyman wizard with a bit less spell points but here is the big twist: spent randomly on the regular menu excluding summon guns and magic because that would basically be an involuntary announcement.
Helping newbies actually learn something instead of trying to do the ""fun"" thing and summon guns/magic before they start. Force veterans to try and bend some of the less used spells and items to achieve success.
- Steelpoint
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Re: Wizard Scaling
Maybe if there was a off-station Wizard role that a ghost player can take control off that lets the Wizard fight in a self-contained environment. The environment should be utterly cut off from the rest of the game, likely on the Centcom Z-level. Also the Wizard would need to lose any teleport spells so it can't teleport to the station.
Imo to be a good Wizard player you need to be a good player to begin with. But getting some experience as a Wizard can go a long way, and most people don't know how to download the code and try it offline, plus its very hard to play as a Wizard (in all my years I've never been a round start Wizard).
Imo to be a good Wizard player you need to be a good player to begin with. But getting some experience as a Wizard can go a long way, and most people don't know how to download the code and try it offline, plus its very hard to play as a Wizard (in all my years I've never been a round start Wizard).
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Re: Wizard Scaling
A self running thunderdome for antag combat practice would be good in general if it could run itself admin free and never use much resources or touch the round proper.
- DemonFiren
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Re: Wizard Scaling
Would be nice if you could watch it on the bar screens, though.
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Re: Wizard Scaling
As long as everyone there is random appearance should be possible to watch it.
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