The current state of primary antags

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Luke Cox
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The current state of primary antags

Post by Luke Cox » #401252

Currently, we're in a bit of an antag crisis. We have 5 and a half modes in normal rotation (traitorchan with malf, blood cult, revolution, wizard, nuke ops), the lowest number since at least 2014 (which had 8) and nearly half of the peak (9-10, I can't remember if clockcult, slings, and gang were in rotation concurrently). Clock cult was just removed, and lings and blood cult both are the subject of great controversy at the moment. The newest antag type currently in rotation is blood cult, which is from 2010. This, in my opinion, is a massive problem. Rounds have become very stale, with the same few sources of danger. Nobody is on their toes anymore. Secondary antags are fun and a great addition, but they are no substitute for having a healthy variety of primary antags to keep people paranoid. In my opinion, 7-8 distinct modes is the sweet spot. To start, let's take a look at each of the current antags and the basic mechanical experience that they provide:
  • Traitorchan + malf: Independent covert operatives, with optional teamwork at the risk of backstabbing. Low to moderate threat level, only malf AI forces round end
  • Nuclear ops: (Usually) loud boarding party. Teamwork required, maximum threat level. Round-ending objective
  • Revolution: Viral conversion-based revolt, race to infect and inoculate crew for revs and sec respectively. Loose teamwork involved. High threat level, round-ending objective
  • Blood cult: Team symmetrical conversion (all cultists the same) built around establishing base(s) of operation and snowballing. High teamwork, high threat level, round-ending objective
  • Wizard: One overpowered antag vs. everyone else. Usually loud, allows for stealth. Medium to high threat, objectives not round ending
Having laid that out, there are some patterns that could use breaking. I tried to do all of the following for my Devil rework idea (shameless plug, coders pls), and I feel that we'd be much better off if we could get 2-3 new modes that take the following into consideration:
  • No more round-ending objectives: Right now, more than half of the antags end the round upon the successful completion of their objective. It's no wonder people want traitorchan to have ridiculously high odds of rolling; it and Wizard are the only modes that don't force a quick round end by design.
  • Lower the threat level: 3 and a half (malf) of the current game modes include objectives that cause the destruction of the station. Ops are trying to blow it up, revs render it inoperable, blood cult snowballs quickly and kills everyone, and wizard can have a pretty high body count if the wizard is semi-robust. Again, traitorchan seems to be the only mode that doesn't create a mini holocaust. Future antag types should tone down try to moderate the threat level somewhat. You don't have to blow up the station to cause conflict and be a real threat. They should have the capability to kill lots of people, but they should have to work for it like traitors do.
  • The glory of greentext: This is arguably more of a player/mentality issue, but what happened to slipping away on the escape shuttle and basking in the greentext and accompanying bragging rights you get when the shuttle reaches centcom? Right now, 3 out of 5 of the current antags get a pop-up as soon as they complete their objectives saying "HEY GUYS, DID YOU KNOW THAT THE ANTAGS WON!?"
  • Independent antags: Traitorchan is the only mode with multiple antags who function independently and who can win or lose on their own. Every other mode is a complete win or loss for the antags. We need more antags that can work on their own, and have the option of either working together and/or backstabbing each other.
  • Keep it simple: All of the defunct game modes have one common thread: They had a moderate to steep learning curve. "New" or "novel" doesn't have to mean "complicated"
  • Novel conflict types: No more team conversion or one vs all modes. There's a lot more ground to cover. Blob being moved to secondary antag left space for an RTS-style antag. My reverse conversion idea has been positively received. We could do with some more novel mechanical setups.
  • G I T G U D: This may somewhat contradict the lower threat level point, but there's a difference between something being genuinely overpowered and people being too retarded to figure out how to deal with it. Let's not shelf or neuter concepts because the digg crowd can't handle it
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by bandit » #401262

A way to kind of jury-rig around this is to give antags different objective possibilities. Cult kind of used to have that for instance before it became all nar-nar all the time.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Luke Cox » #401264

bandit wrote:A way to kind of jury-rig around this is to give antags different objective possibilities. Cult kind of used to have that for instance before it became all nar-nar all the time.
Some antags have a little wiggle room. Oldcult didn't always have to summon nar nar. Operatives could possibly be assigned other means of destroying the station. Wizards already have different objectives. If my devil idea goes through, you could always give them an objective or two in addition to maintaining a soul count.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by CPTANT » #401294

Multiple roundstart side antags should be a "primary" antag.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by oranges » #401296

the people with the time and energy to code gamemodes just add more conversion modes because they're low effort
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by oranges » #401302

also I don't see why you feel the need to have more modes than currently, I would say we could do with less, most games dont' come with four games inside them
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Luke Cox » #401311

oranges wrote:the people with the time and energy to code gamemodes just add more conversion modes because they're low effort
That's because they're fucking retarded, as evidenced by the current situation. Seriously, I might actually try to take up coding just because of this. If I want it done right, I have to do it myself.
oranges wrote:also I don't see why you feel the need to have more modes than currently, I would say we could do with less, most games dont' come with four games inside them
>Comparing SS13 to most games
That's your first mistake.

The reason we need more modes is because antagonists are the primary source of conflict in the round. They keep things going. If antags were really such an ancillary and unimportant feature, people wouldn't groan about extended rounds. Significant portions of the playerbase are complaining about things being stale, and imo it's because we only have 2-3 fundamentally different kinds of conflict in terms of antag types.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by oranges » #401318

opinions
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Yakumo_Chen » #401320

We have IAA and Blood Brothers both as antag ideas that have been floating around for the better part of the year. One of them can even be enabled even though it's buggy.

Some of the side antags I kind of wonder what would happen if they had their own mode. Abductors are the most striking example, however they aren't hugely powerful and get stale a little quickly when most of them do nothing but brainwash spam "dont kill abductors" and then people get a whacky RP objective they don't really follow.

Perhaps consider modes that other servers have.
/vg/ has Vampires, which is a pretty popular mode. They also have Revsquad, which is like a revolution but without conversions, and headrevs get a random helpful item (an emag, a gun, a limited use conversion flash, etc) they have to use to find a way to kill heads instead.
I remember Hippie having some kind of King of the Disk mode where a bunch of traitors spawned with very few TC but if they stole the nuke disk they would very slowly get more TC to work with, and the end objective being to escape with the nuke disk. We could work something like that into the game. Or Honk Ops but actually as a serious game mode.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Anonmare » #401321

What became of that Syndicate Infiltrators mode? That was a non-conversion team mode that didn't end the round as I recall

I've seen IAA enabled a few times, I did have fun in one of the rounds as an IAA as it felt like it had some decent amount of paranoia from constantly looking over my shoulder to see if I was being followed by someone. The inaccurate pinpointers were a roughly hot-cold way of telling if your target was near but didn't pinpoint them which was kind of fun
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Luke Cox » #401324

I've heard that a mode that spawns a bunch of secondary antags is being worked on, which is a good start. I'll have to look into vampires. I'm not sure what they entail, but they sound promising. Revsquad sounds intriguing, but imo we should try to stay away from team-based antags for a while.

I have no idea what the hell happened to infiltrators, that sounded cool.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Lumbermancer » #401343

The reason I think Traitor is 2nd best game mode (after extended) is because they're just multiple little antags. Each has it's own objective, preferably does not murder and destroy everything, and just does its thing. This allows for the round to flow more naturally, primarily for civilian jobs. Scientist can science, botanist can make weed, miners can do their PvE etc.

Every other game mode presents you with a singular threat to whole station, forcing you to get involved, and disrupts the game flow.

We need more little antags with little objectives.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by BeeSting12 » #401348

I think the main reason a lot of people dislike revs and cult is that it's impossible not to choose a side. If you're not with the cult or implanted then you're likely to get killed by either side, same with revs. I think it makes for interesting conflict but more often than not it ends in bwoinks all around.

Idunno if we need more antags but I agree with most of the points you made there.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by BeeSting12 » #401350

Luke Cox wrote:I have no idea what the hell happened to infiltrators, that sounded cool.
Infiltrators sorta died out after we busted the creator for ban evasion on the server + they were using an alt account on github for the PR which goes against our rules or github's IIRC. It was an alright idea though, a shame the coder for it was breaking the rules since it could've turned out well.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Luke Cox » #401475

Lumbermancer wrote:The reason I think Traitor is 2nd best game mode (after extended) is because they're just multiple little antags. Each has it's own objective, preferably does not murder and destroy everything, and just does its thing. This allows for the round to flow more naturally, primarily for civilian jobs. Scientist can science, botanist can make weed, miners can do their PvE etc.

Every other game mode presents you with a singular threat to whole station, forcing you to get involved, and disrupts the game flow.

We need more little antags with little objectives.
Smaller scale is definitely the way to go. We need more independent antags that needle at the crew until they relent and call the shuttle. I tried to go for something like that with my devil rework idea, and I have a few other ideas for antags that would function similarly.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Lumbermancer » #401672

I was thinking of something like couple of lesser demons, who would be basically traitors but supernatural in nature. You could do some gimmick flavors of demons, that could posses dead bodies, send their incorporeal spirits through the wires to spy etc.

And you could mix em in with tators too.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Anuv » #402100

w/r/t current antags, I've noticed that mining and science seems like they aren't bothering to invest much into mining/upgrades because half the rounds lately are short as fuck with instant Cult shuttle calls, wizard fucking, or war ops.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by cedarbridge » #402109

Anuv wrote:w/r/t current antags, I've noticed that mining and science seems like they aren't bothering to invest much into mining/upgrades because half the rounds lately are short as fuck with instant Cult shuttle calls, wizard fucking, or war ops.
Average round time is still one hour. Don't make oranges come back into another thread with the chart.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Luke Cox » #402113

Granted, traitor(Chan) still accounts for a disproportionately large number of rounds
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by bandit » #402134

Luke Cox wrote:Granted, traitor(Chan) still accounts for a disproportionately large number of rounds
we've gotten rid of a lot of game modes (clock cult, gang, malf, blob?) so the proportion naturally will go up
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Doctor Pork » #402164

Anuv wrote:w/r/t current antags, I've noticed that mining and science seems like they aren't bothering to invest much into mining/upgrades because half the rounds lately are short as fuck with instant Cult shuttle calls, wizard fucking, or war ops.
This. Half the time you're better off just grabbing the closest blunt object and taking your chances to end the round than continue your job since the round is fucked anyway and if it isn't the shuttle is still getting called because "WE FOUND THE ANTAG".
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Anuv » #402167

cedarbridge wrote:
Anuv wrote:w/r/t current antags, I've noticed that mining and science seems like they aren't bothering to invest much into mining/upgrades because half the rounds lately are short as fuck with instant Cult shuttle calls, wizard fucking, or war ops.
Average round time is still one hour. Don't make oranges come back into another thread with the chart.
That might be true - but it still just seems like mining and science especially are no longer doing their jobs for 90% of rounds. One hour in and T4 upgrades still aren't done. It seemed like that was never the case a few months ago.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Gun Hog » #402178

Anuv wrote: That might be true - but it still just seems like mining and science especially are no longer doing their jobs for 90% of rounds. One hour in and T4 upgrades still aren't done. It seemed like that was never the case a few months ago.
That is likely because R&D is now both harder to do (techwebs: There is now a point cost to unlocking things) and much less rewarding (departmental protolathes removed scientists' access to several desirable items).
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by LifeReign » #402265

They also made the upgrades cost more per node, so there's significantly more waiting around required for those who like to do upgrades. There's also significantly more time for Robotics to blow points on mech research once they see more than 2500 points stocked up.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Cobby » #402271

It's like you're not always suppose to get T4 parts...
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by SpaceManiac » #402291

Giving the entire station T4 is basically trivial and can be done very quickly if 1) mining brings in at least one diamond, at least one bluespace crystal, and at least 5 of each other mineral, 2) someone else isn't preventing you from saving up the research point costs of the relevant techs.

Remember that Engineering now also shares the ability to upgrade machines.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by onleavedontatme » #402384

LifeReign wrote:They also made the upgrades cost more per node, so there's significantly more waiting around required for those who like to do upgrades. There's also significantly more time for Robotics to blow points on mech research once they see more than 2500 points stocked up.
Robotics having the ability to spend points is incredibly weird
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #402385

Kor wrote:
LifeReign wrote:They also made the upgrades cost more per node, so there's significantly more waiting around required for those who like to do upgrades. There's also significantly more time for Robotics to blow points on mech research once they see more than 2500 points stocked up.
Robotics having the ability to spend points is incredibly weird
I dont think its intentional actually - just that when the techwebs was invented, the console they have soley to control their circuit fab suddenly gave them direct access to R&Ds shit
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Dr_bee » #402391

Giving cult back its non-nar-nar objectives might make cult mode actually tolerable to a certain extent. Focusing on making new objectives instead of new game modes would be a good way to spice up what we already have instead of introducing new things that might be a pain in the ass to balance.

I still think clock cult can be salvaged as a non-conversion mode, but that would require a coder willing to do it. Clock cult, unlike gang, actually has a unique gameplay style that other modes didnt have in the base building and base assault.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Luke Cox » #402460

Completely tossing Clock Cult would be a huge waste given how much code and artwork is done for it. I'd love to see it get a rework someday, but I have a feeling that it should stay on the back burner for a while, at least until we have a few new non-conversion antags in rotation.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by ShadowDimentio » #402461

I've said it a million times, clock cuck would be great if it was centered around basebuilding an autism fort the crew have to siege as opposed to just being cult but worse.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by BeeSting12 » #402571

ShadowDimentio wrote:I've said it a million times, clock cuck would be great if it was centered around basebuilding an autism fort the crew have to siege as opposed to just being cult but worse.
That was the intention of the Reebe version of cult but it failed.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by somerandomguy » #402573

BeeSting12 wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:I've said it a million times, clock cuck would be great if it was centered around basebuilding an autism fort the crew have to siege as opposed to just being cult but worse.
That was the intention of the Reebe version of cult but it failed.
It failed because it didn't focus enough on building (I.e. conversion rush meta).
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by DemonFiren » #402604

there's a reason reebe translates to error
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Rustledjimm » #402635

Luke Cox wrote:Granted, traitor(Chan) still accounts for a disproportionately large number of rounds

I will say that we recently changed the config a few days ago so Traitorchan has a MUCH smaller chance and we buffed regular Traitor mostly in it's place.

I am thinking of giving Blood Brothers a run with a coeff of 20 so not too many spawn.
So uhh, I'm an admin. Please leave feedback! Oops took me a while to strike that through.

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Armhulen
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Armhulen » #402643

ShadowDimentio wrote:I've said it a million times, clock cuck would be great if it was centered around basebuilding an autism fort the crew have to siege as opposed to just being cult but worse.
When I was theorycrafting with xhuis on what we should do with the game mode i suggested basically this, no conversion and a bunch more traps (teleporters, nail gun emitters, reflectors and some other wacky zaney stuff but xhuis liked the conversion aspect of it so

another idea i had turned into what the eminence was but the idea was one person was a lieutenant of ratvar, at the start they'd pick which one they were and they'd grant bonuses to the clock cult.
the big guy was building and he allowed for extreme base building
ONE OF THEM allowed for teleportation anywhere but not conversion, kind of a warlike one
the ghastly from pokemon one allowed conversion but they could only spawn in from a portal built in maint
the last one i don't remember at all

it was turned down because it was way too complicated and wasn't really that good of an ideaaaaaaaa
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by Dr_bee » #403041

Armhulen wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:I've said it a million times, clock cuck would be great if it was centered around basebuilding an autism fort the crew have to siege as opposed to just being cult but worse.
When I was theorycrafting with xhuis on what we should do with the game mode i suggested basically this, no conversion and a bunch more traps (teleporters, nail gun emitters, reflectors and some other wacky zaney stuff but xhuis liked the conversion aspect of it so

another idea i had turned into what the eminence was but the idea was one person was a lieutenant of ratvar, at the start they'd pick which one they were and they'd grant bonuses to the clock cult.
the big guy was building and he allowed for extreme base building
ONE OF THEM allowed for teleportation anywhere but not conversion, kind of a warlike one
the ghastly from pokemon one allowed conversion but they could only spawn in from a portal built in maint
the last one i don't remember at all

it was turned down because it was way too complicated and wasn't really that good of an ideaaaaaaaa
Conversion is too strong of a ability. Xhuis needs to understand that cult probably only can survive as a non-conversion mode.

The idea of tech trees for eminences would be neat but should not be a main part of the mode. It should be a side thing added after the mode itself is decent.
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Re: The current state of primary antags

Post by ShadowDimentio » #403242

BeeSting12 wrote:
ShadowDimentio wrote:I've said it a million times, clock cuck would be great if it was centered around basebuilding an autism fort the crew have to siege as opposed to just being cult but worse.
That was the intention of the Reebe version of cult but it failed.
It was the intention but so long as the clockcocks could just go to the station and kill/convert everyone that's all that every happened.
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